Is Lord Shiva the son of Brahma?

[Guest guest]

 

You are obviously too ignorant about the Vedic scriptures to be ready for the post-graduate siddhanta regarding Radha-Krishna, so lets just stick to some elementary school concepts that maybe your pea-brain

 

So thousands and thousands of years old rishis are elementary school whereas 500 years old newborn school of newkrishnaism is postgraduate?!

nice try ok. then we are happy in the elementary ancient Vedic school, rather than the new born baby postgraduate.

[Guruvani]

 

Gyan Vriddh is only 'Vriddha'! Think about this old lump. If years added wisdom, then I would learn from the redwood tree. Your aggression and "Shaiva Gurus speaking from their An*s " snap has amply made clear your sorry and frustrated state of consciousness. This is not what we call a "Vaishnava"! Studying religion and philosophy has nothing to do with sadhna! Nor has it got anything to do with 'Gyana' gained out of following shastric sadhnas. Playing video games is not bad once in a while. But not with Guru Maryada and Lord Shiva or Vishnu's names!

 

Honestly, I have met riksha-wallas in India that are more intelligent and learned than you in Vedic knowledge.

 

You Shaivites need to put down the hash pipe and pick up some japa-mala and learn how to chant the Maha-mantra.

 

I have seen plenty of Shaivites in India so stoned on hash that they couldn't even find their own ass.

 

Shaivites live in a cloud of ignorance and claim to be all-enlightened, but you can't have an intelligent discussion with a Shaivite whose head is full of smoke and dope.

 

Debating shastra with a Shaivite is like trying to talk philosophy with a donkey on drugs.

 

[shvu]

 

You Shaivites need to put down the hash pipe and pick up some japa-mala and learn how to chant the Maha-mantra.

 

Guruvani,

 

You are the perfect example of a pot calling the kettle black. Your own belief system is replete with holes and is incapable of sustaining any serious enquiry. But you cunningly ignore that and talk nonsense.

 

You have commited Shaiva Aparadha and are hereby sentenced to time in Shaiva Hell with no option for Parole. If you are not familiar with the concept, please look up Vaishnava Aparadha in your Gaudiya scriptures. The torturers in Vaishnava Hell wear vertical nama-s and their counterparts in in Shaiva Hell wear horizontal stripes of ash on their foreheads. Otherwise, the two systems are identical.

 

Many Shaivas are vedic too. Shrikanta from the 13th century or thereabouts, wrote a commentary on the Brahma sutras and interpreted it to mean Shiva. Dr Sharma, the late Dvaita scholar comments that Shrikanta did a good job of providing a Shaiva interpretation. Today, plenty of Iyers in Tamilnadu are Shaiva and they are as vedic as it can possbly get.

 

 

he funny explanation given was that Radha's name is so divine that each time Vyasadeva decide to write it down, and he thought about her and half pronounced her name, he fell into ecstatic trance and hence was never able to write it down and the name was highly secret. nice explanation huh? Anyone buying this?

 

Vyasa's problem would have persisted in the dream too. When he appeared in the dreams of a Gaudiya Vaishnava Guru, he would have fallen into a trance before he said the name and the Guru would not know what Vyasa was trying to do. So the way out of this dilemma is to posit the existance of a third party. This person saw Vysas's problem and then appeared in a Gaudiya Vaishnava Guru's dream and told him about it. That is how the Gaudiyas (and no one else) have Radha today.

 

However, I had heard this story a little differently. When Sukha was reciting the Bhagavatam, he would fall into Samadhi when he started to say her name and that is why she is absent from the text. It is a pity that the audience did not have access to modern day technology. Else, they could have strapped Shukha to an interrogation chair and setup a decent voltage. Everytime, he started to go into Samadhi, he would have received a jolt with people in the background screaming "say it, say it!" and that way Radha would have found a mention in the Bhagavatam. Oops! Did I just commit Vaishnava Aparadha?

 

If I were a Sai baba devotee, I would have used this excuse to defend the avatarhood of my Guru. Whenever Shukha started to say out the divine, nectar-like name of Sai baba, he would fall into a trance. It would be so deep that the audience had buckets of cold water handy and would throw several pails of water on him before he would come out of his trance (At one point, so much water was thrown on him that he had to take a break from his discourse due to pneumonia). How do we know this? Through the dreams of a devotee, of course.

 

Cheers

[Guruvani]

 

By the way, I loved your picture Guruvani! And I guessed it right too. You are sitting on the left Nice photo. From your last visit to Kumbhamela eh?

 

Oh, I forgot to tell you, I was a Shaivite in my last life but I met a Vaishnava and saw the light so I put down my hash pipe and picked-up the japa-mala.

 

Maybe in some future birth you too can become a Vaishnava like Lord Siva?

 

Siva is not a Shaivite - he is a Vaishnava!!!!

[Guest guest]

 

Oh, I forgot to tell you, I was a Shaivite in my last life but I met a Vaishnava and saw the light so I put down my hash pipe and picked-up the japa-mala.

Maybe in some future birth you too can become a Vaishnava like Lord Siva?

Siva is not a Shaivite - he is a Vaishnava

 

umm... There is no end to this speculation really.

I think you seem to have completely forgotten that you had decided to make an attempt to become a Vaishnava in this life. We hope that you become a Vaishnava at the least since you failed to become a Shivaite inprevious life as you have claimed. You still have some time left.

 

The truth is that Shiva is a Vaishnava just as much as Krsna - a Shaiva.

But how many understand this? Very few.

[Guest guest]

Guest 3

 

This is an open forum in which everybody can take part. Who cares to whom you were replying? And trust me, buddy, you don't wanna confront me on a battlefield, because if you were to do so, you wouldn't have your feet on which to stand anymore. By the way, your words sound like those of a eunuch to me. At least I have the guts to write my own name prior to posting, and not hide behind a bland, unimaginative username like Guest 3!

 

Also, for your information, I am not and will never be an ISKCON member, and have little or no interest in ISKCON's success or failure. Neither do I give Bhaktivedanta Swami the position that his followers afford him. For me, he is a good, genuine acharya, but just one of many other, equally good spiritual teachers. Don't try to educate me about the differences between sampradayas - I am perfectly aware of them! I believe in comprehending scriptures based on the philosophy that they espouse in aggregate, not by merely considering a few verses in isolation, divorced from the general context of the text.

 

Each sampradaya has an ishta-deva of its own, and rightly so. I consider all the sampradayas which base their philosophy on the Brahma-sutras of Badarayana to be genuine. These include all major Vaishnava lineages (including Chaitanya Vaishnavism) as well as traditional Advaitic Shankarites, since the major Vedantic works of Sripada Shankaracharya, namely the Sariraka Bhashya and Viveka-cudamani, are expressly impersonalistic in outlook. That does not mean that I seek to put down non-Vedantic traditions, but I am entitled to evaluate their relative merits based on the influence of the three gunas on my nature.

 

It would also be interesting if you could quote just one word from my previous posting to show how I belittled any deity other than Krsna. Not that I have anything to prove to you, but for your information, I am a Gaudiya convert from a Hindu family with a basically Shaivite-cum-Advaitic background. Even more, my mother hails from an Arya Samaj family. My father's ishta-deva is and will remain Lord Shiva. Even though my life lies at the lotus feet of Svayam Bhagavan Sri Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I have never been able to give up Mahadeva. In fact, once yearly, I sponsor a Rudra-abhisheka at my local temple.

 

I do agree with your contention that ISKCONnites have done immense harm to Sanatana Dharma with their preaching methods, but a deeper delving into Gaudiya Vedanta quickly shows the high position that true Chaitanya Vaishnavas are supposed to have for Mahadeva. The whole of Vraja-mandala is awash with Siva-lingas, since we worship Tripurari as Gopeshwara Mahadeva and also as Kshetra-pala, the protector of the holy abode. Our sambandha-acharya, Srila Sanatana Gosvamipada, could not resist paying his obeisances to his dear Shiva everyday. The situation is similar in Sri Navadvipa-dhama. In fact, there is a well-known temple housing two lingas behind the Adbhuta Mandira at Yogapitha, and for a successful Navadvipa Parikrama, one is required to pay one's respects to Lord Shiva Shankara prior to setting out to visiting other holy places there.

 

In any event, what I find amusing is why non-Vaishnavas are always eager to try to defeat Vaishnavism on Vaishnava discussion boards. To my knowledge, the vast majority of Lord Hari's devotees have no interest whatsoever in peeping at what is going on on Shaiva forums. As the saying goes, to each their own. I have never, ever tried to convert one person to my fold. I am even pally with devout Muslims, what to speak of people following other Vedic belief systems, especially folks practising sound principles such as ahimsa and vegetarianism.

 

Anyways, I am ready to go to Varanasi any day, Guest 3. I would love to take the divine darshan of Lord Vishwanath and then proceed to visit the wonderful temples of Bhagavan Hari that are there, i.e. Bindu-Madhava and Adi Keshava.

 

Om tat sat!

[Guest guest]

Guest 3, just to get back to one of your many, idiotic remarks full of sarcasm, which do demonstrate how perfected a soul you are for sure - regarding getting pissed off, I reserve that right to myself, and at the tender age of 33, I consider that to be quite normal.

 

You are yourself visibly irked by the postings which go against your own ideology, except that you prefer to resort to sarcasm with your omnipresent LOL, which is funny, but belongs to the realm of MIRC and CHAT, rather than here. As I said, we have no inclination to take part in non-Vaishnava discussions with non-Vaishnavas, even though we do believe in live and let live (well, I do, at any rate). In other words, go back to where you belong - BUZZ OFF!

[Guest guest]

 

Guest 3

 

This is an open forum in which everybody can take part. Who cares to whom you were replying? And trust me, buddy, you don't wanna confront me on a battlefield, because if you were to do so, you wouldn't have your feet on which to stand anymore. By the way, your words sound like those of a eunuch to me. At least I have the guts to write my own name prior to posting, and not hide behind a bland, unimaginative username like Guest 3!

 

Also, for your information, I am not and will never be an ISKCON member, and have little or no interest in ISKCON's success or failure. Neither do I give Bhaktivedanta Swami the position that his followers afford him. For me, he is a good, genuine acharya, but just one of many other, equally good spiritual teachers. Don't try to educate me about the differences between sampradayas - I am perfectly aware of them! I believe in comprehending scriptures based on the philosophy that they espouse in aggregate, not by merely considering a few verses in isolation, divorced from the general context of the text.

 

Each sampradaya has an ishta-deva of its own, and rightly so. I consider all the sampradayas which base their philosophy on the Brahma-sutras of Badarayana to be genuine. These include all major Vaishnava lineages (including Chaitanya Vaishnavism) as well as traditional Advaitic Shankarites, since the major Vedantic works of Sripada Shankaracharya, namely the Sariraka Bhashya and Viveka-cudamani, are expressly impersonalistic in outlook. That does not mean that I seek to put down non-Vedantic traditions, but I am entitled to evaluate their relative merits based on the influence of the three gunas on my nature.

 

It would also be interesting if you could quote just one word from my previous posting to show how I belittled any deity other than Krsna. Not that I have anything to prove to you, but for your information, I am a Gaudiya convert from a Hindu family with a basically Shaivite-cum-Advaitic background. Even more, my mother hails from an Arya Samaj family. My father's ishta-deva is and will remain Lord Shiva. Even though my life lies at the lotus feet of Svayam Bhagavan Sri Krsna and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, I have never been able to give up Mahadeva. In fact, once yearly, I sponsor a Rudra-abhisheka at my local temple.

 

I do agree with your contention that ISKCONnites have done immense harm to Sanatana Dharma with their preaching methods, but a deeper delving into Gaudiya Vedanta quickly shows the high position that true Chaitanya Vaishnavas are supposed to have for Mahadeva. The whole of Vraja-mandala is awash with Siva-lingas, since we worship Tripurari as Gopeshwara Mahadeva and also as Kshetra-pala, the protector of the holy abode. Our sambandha-acharya, Srila Sanatana Gosvamipada, could not resist paying his obeisances to his dear Shiva everyday. The situation is similar in Sri Navadvipa-dhama. In fact, there is a well-known temple housing two lingas behind the Adbhuta Mandira at Yogapitha, and for a successful Navadvipa Parikrama, one is required to pay one's respects to Lord Shiva Shankara prior to setting out to visiting other holy places there.

 

In any event, what I find amusing is why non-Vaishnavas are always eager to try to defeat Vaishnavism on Vaishnava discussion boards. To my knowledge, the vast majority of Lord Hari's devotees have no interest whatsoever in peeping at what is going on on Shaiva forums. As the saying goes, to each their own. I have never, ever tried to convert one person to my fold. I am even pally with devout Muslims, what to speak of people following other Vedic belief systems, especially folks practising sound principles such as ahimsa and vegetarianism.

 

Anyways, I am ready to go to Varanasi any day, Guest 3. I would love to take the divine darshan of Lord Vishwanath and then proceed to visit the wonderful temples of Bhagavan Hari that are there, i.e. Bindu-Madhava and Adi Keshava.

 

Om tat sat!

[Guest guest]

 

Guest 3, just to get back to you..

 

Thanks Vikram.

Taking your valuable advice, I'm buzzing off this biased forum. The biased forum moderators have blocked my IP. but not of yours or guruvani, despite the fact that you two have been using dirty abusing language including Shit, ass, gurus talking out of their anus etc.

Moderators seem happy even with this as long as its not being used for gaudiya camp. Others are abused and then blocked here. So I prefer to remain out of this mess.

 

As far as fighting and my not being able to stand on ground is concerned, I would be happy to have a sparring with you that will definitely result in your licking the ground, i.e. if i decide to leave u in one piece. After all I'm well used to it since I got my fourth Dan four years back and professionally work in this field. I'm not Gaudiya. I'm a tantrik and have enough siddhis to destroy u sitting right here. But if the tantriks were to get off balance for petty hot heads like you, they would be burning you to ashes in no time! At this point, I've prefered not to waste my sadhnatmak energy on lower forms of life and consciousness.

Calling others eunuch doesn't make u any man either. According to this logic all the guests and everybody who don't write their name as in their identification legal documents on this forum have become eunuchs!!! Including your own gaudiyas.

If you were really proud of your Gaudiya tradition and wanted to preach it, you could have displayed a better behavior than the usual abusive self. But you decided to display the abusive and better known side of your sampradaya. But anyways, as you said, its a free forum and people are welcom to write. (well sorts of...bu not really as has always been proved).

 

Now you can vent out more hot air on me and others who don't feel obliged to agree with a few Gaudiyas or narrow minded crap. In anycase, people who don't agree with you, end up being hushed up as gaudiya haters, even if they come to you with good intentions and not actually dislike gaudiya sampradaya.

I'm out of here!!

Thanks, apologies (to good devotees who might have felt hurt because of the agressors and false representers of ur sampradaya resulting in my being defensive) and regards to all others. Thanks to Mahak for a good display of Vaishnava spirit. Regards to devotees. OM!

[Guest guest]

Guest 3

 

Hey you sicko,

 

I challenge you to quote one swear word from my posts. You belong in a psychiatric ward, and do not deserve any more of my time. You keep saying stupidly and falsely that I disrespect Lord Shiva, but you cannot give any citations from my words, coz there are not any. I love and worship Lord Shiva and will always do so.

 

Just be honest to yourself and admit that it is my abuse of you, and not of Lord Shiva that are causing you to get so demented. And I know what I am capable of - saying that you have a 4th dan on the Web leaves me thoroughly unimpressed. Come in front of me and let us see. You want to use your siddhis now eh, or will you call upon Sathya Sai Baba to do some cheap tricks for you. Go get a life, Guest 3, and stop wasting people's valuable time! Once again, BUZZ OFF!

 

We don't want to preach to you, don't you come preach to us.

 

I think I have given you enough of my time. If you wanna have the final say, be my guest!

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends,

 

Most of the Devotees who follow HK's they are committing a huge offences on Lord Shiva. Very few people in HK's know sanskrit and out of which they only read Vaishnava philosophy which was proposed by H.D.G Prabhupada. And no body has any knowledge and more importantly they are very arrogant.

 

They wear this Kanti on their nect humbler than a blade of a grass and tolerant than a tree. Just bahiranga outside internally nobody is tolerant in that society heavily brainwashed. I wish Lord Krishna give them little sense not to put other devotees of other sampradayas, other philosophers and Lord Shiva's position down.

 

What I like in them is their love for Krishna here on one side they are progressing in their spiritual pursuit and on the other side the statements regarding Lord Shiva, other saints e.t.c they are throwing the dirt on their spiritual pursuit. Please don't make this anarthas and improve in your sadhana and don't commit this maha papa (Dhuritha).

 

I wish them best of luck for their spiritual Pursuit.

Yours well wisher.

 

Forget about the spiritual advances they may be making they would fall from their poisition

 

Guest 3

 

Hey you sicko,

 

I challenge you to quote one swear word from my posts. You belong in a psychiatric ward, and do not deserve any more of my time. You keep saying stupidly and falsely that I disrespect Lord Shiva, but you cannot give any citations from my words, coz there are not any. I love and worship Lord Shiva and will always do so.

 

Just be honest to yourself and admit that it is my abuse of you, and not of Lord Shiva that are causing you to get so demented. And I know what I am capable of - saying that you have a 4th dan on the Web leaves me thoroughly unimpressed. Come in front of me and let us see. You want to use your siddhis now eh, or will you call upon Sathya Sai Baba to do some cheap tricks for you. Go get a life, Guest 3, and stop wasting people's valuable time! Once again, BUZZ OFF!

 

We don't want to preach to you, don't you come preach to us.

 

I think I have given you enough of my time. If you wanna have the final say, be my guest!

[Guest guest]

All this bickering makes me very sad. Vaisnava's and Shaivites are both supposed to be respectful, humble and equiposed. Yet all i hear is that "My God is superior to yours. *insert sarcastic comment here* *insert more sarcasm and mudslinging*"

 

This discussion is not even based upon the topic anymore and has turned into one of many arguments. Vaishnavas and Shaivites will never agree, lets face it. However, rather than arguing over the differences why not discuss atleast what the two have similar and show some respect towards one another. Not start ISCKON bashing and involve Hare Krishna's and simply discuss this Vedic Philosophy.

 

There are other forums and threads if you wish to discuss ISKCON, but do not simply use it as a way to criticize Gaudiya philosophy and practice simply because you wish to be a sheep and follow social majorities whose opinions many times are based on half truths. Im not saying ISKCON hasnt had troubles, but im just saying its silly as followers of Santan Dharma to continusoully criticise one another simply to put ones own faith above another.

 

Simply show sincerity and humility towards each other and i am sure no matter what the belief, Shiva / Vishnu / Or Krishna, will be pleased. Much more pleased than to hear sarcasm and insults.

 

Im only a young lad of 17, and a young student of Sanatana Dharma. It becomes very off putting to the younger generation people of the older generation who claim to be trying to follow a form of Sanatana Dharma bicker, argue, criticise and not show any of the values of which are so prominent within the philosophies.

[Guest guest]

I totally agree with the last two posts. And I challenge anybody to quote one phrase from my earlier posts which could be construed as offensive to Lord Shiva or any other Devata or Devi. And I am throwing down the gauntlet because I know that there are not any. I cannot speak for the other Vaisnavas who took part in this pathetic discussion but certainly, I personally hold Mahadeva Siva in extremely high regard, and I did not disrespect him at all. How can an insignificant former meat-eating Kali-yuga patita like myself commit any offense to the unlimitedly powerful Lord Mahesa, from whose matted locks the infinitely glorious Ganga Mata flows?

 

That cowardly tantric dabbler (supposedly) and fool Guest 3 was the main offending party, and this is obvious to anyone who goes back and rereads the posts on this thread. He not only insulted Radharani, but also spoke derisively of Sri Vrndavana-dhama and Vaisnava sastras. And in his risible reply to my previous post, he was the one making use of vulgar words, when I had not used any, even though I did challenge him to a fist fight, well virtually I should say. Of course, some of the Vaisnavas who posted did regrettably make inappropriate statements which I condemn.

 

For the record, yes I am a Gaudiya Vaisnava, but am not in any way affiliated with ISKCON. And Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is just one of many, many genuine gurus in our sampradaya. He is very far from being the sole authority which I consult for my positions on theology and philosophy. Caitanya Vaisnavism is much, much, much bigger than the Hare Krsnas that people generally see chanting or distributing books in public places.

[Guest guest]

I really did not want to return to this thread but I found the following from one of Sripada Tripurari Maharaja's Sanga Q & As, and found his instructions on this issue so captivating that I could not resist sharing it here. I think that Maharaja's take on sectarianism should be an eye-opener for us all.

 

My Pranams to everyone.

 

Here it goes:

 

 

Q. I believe there is one God who has different names and forms. Some know him as Krsna, and others know him as Jehovah or Siva, and there's nothing wrong with this. In my opinion sectarian problems are the result of God or gods being explained in terms of a different tradition's frame of reference. Any comments?

 

A. It is true that there is one God who has many forms and names. However, people approach God for different reasons. Thus all forms of worship are not equal. The extent to which God is present in one's worship is determined by the motive with which one worships God. Some people worship with a view to improve their material situation, some seek salvation, and some worship God dutifully because it is the right thing to do as mandated in scripture. While all of these motives bring reciprocation from God, none of them constitute the fullest expression of love and thus none of them connect one with the most complete expression of divinity--the heart of God.

 

Sri Caitanya teaches how to fall in love with God. In his approach there is no concern for material gain or salvation, nor is God merely served dutifully because it is the right thing to do. His method of worship is solely concerned with doing that which personally pleases God, as opposed to only following his laws as detailed in scripture. It is concerned with loving God such that the distance between worshiper and worshiped is bridged. His ideal is exemplified by the milkmaids of Sri Krsna's pastoral lila. Sri Caitanya opined that in the religious history of the world, no better example of selfless divine love can be found. Under scrutiny it becomes apparent that his point is well reasoned.

 

While Sri Caitanya advocated this standard of love, his followers respect all genuine forms of worship. To whatever extent God is present in a particular sect or in the life of a practitioner, that sect and person should be respected. Indeed, how could a lover of God think otherwise?

 

Thus I believe that sectarian problems result more from a lack of real acquaintance with God than from anything else.

[Guest guest]

 

I totally agree with the last two posts. And I challenge anybody to quote one phrase from my earlier posts which could be construed as offensive

 

Dear friends,

I've been reading this rather interesting thread following it from the start.

I think Guest3's posts developed little defensive about the general position of HK community towards Shaiv scriptures, their beliefs and sampradayas and actually got defensive when sumedh made very generalizing belitteling remarks about the rest of the samradayas saying that their belief's are not established or Vedic and hinting especially the Gaudaiyas seem to be the only authentic people around with authentic literature. When I read other authentic scriptures than the Gaudiya, then I find them equally inspiring and evoking bhakti. Now the thing is that if a Gaudiya Vaishnava is so attached to his belief, a Shaiva can be equally attached. And he is a devotee too, just like us. And we need to respect his views.

And this is the mistake that we make. We want a lots and lots of respect for our own views and faith, but are ever ready to put down other faiths, scriptures and beliefs if they don't pass through our belief system's corridor. We should respect other people's beliefs too if we want them to respect our beliefs. And I think this is what happened in Guest3, shvu, Guest_rudra's case. We put down their beliefs, they defended and then we put them down more. Of course, my view may be accepted or not. Not everyone can take if they are told they are wrong.

Of course the main arguments were of sumedh, Guruvani.. and later on Vikram joined. And none of them openely put specifically Lord Shiva down, but they did hurt and hurl disrespect together towards the authenticity of Shaiv scriptures, Shaiv devotees - trying to show that all they do is smoke hash etc. In other words, the Shaiv devotees, and sampradayas were belittled, and this is comensurate to belitteling Lord Shiva and his worship. Of course you Vikram have softened this up by saying that you love Shiva too etc. But frankly your throwing up challenges, fist fights, boasting how you sponser Shiva worship once or taking up a bullish stance is far from Vaishnava behavior. It is not even Gaudiya behavior. "eunuch, idiotic, Hey you sicko, You belong in a psychiatric ward, demented etc" are not part of a Vaishnav's vocabulary really. But I guess, you are still too young (33?) and will gain maturity with time. Until then, wish you may not go around belitteling others. Your spiritual pursuit is commendable. I pray Lord Gauranga showers his mercy on you too. I feel you live far from his dham.

I appreciate Guest123's remark about the kanthi mala that we wear. And we have a lot to learn from it.

I'm from Mayapur and have spent time in Nabadvipa, Kolkata, Seattle. I have been in the Gaudiya math for the past 20 years. I also come from a tradition of Shiv and Kali worship in Bengal. And have known the traditions since early childhood. I could also relate to the tantrik beliefs of Guest3 as tantra and kali worship has always been an integral part of Bengali spiritual culture. And once a tantrik worshipper of Kali saved me from sure death, healing me completely from a sickness that doctors had given up on. I bowed before his sadhna and bhakti and sincerity in his worship through is methods that worked and he surely had his ishta Kali's blessings. And then lord Gauranga called me in his service.

The problem is not in worshipping Shiva or Krsna. Or one scripture hailing Shiva as supreme or Krsna as supreme. The problem is in our arrogance, false pride and lack of devotion, bhakti and sadhna. That is our problem. And that's why we see things in colored by our own egos. And the problem is us believing that what we believe in has to be right and we want to see others confirming it too. And not respecting others' beliefs. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to be too successful with this. But with Lord Gauranga's and Lord Shiva's mercy I've been able to get much better in the last few years. And I'm happy with the difference in the consciousness.

If we have to reach Lord Krsna, then we have to be humbler than the blade of grass, as our Lord Sri Chaitanya showed by his own example.

My humble obeisances to all.

Jai Gaurange!!!

[Guest guest]

 

Sripada Tripurari Maharaja's Sanga Q & As

 

That's very nice!! Thanks for putting this.

Hari bol!

[Guest guest]

 

Dear friends,

I've been reading this rather interesting thread following it from the start.

I think Guest3's posts developed little defensive about the general position of HK community towards Shaiv scriptures, their beliefs and sampradayas and actually got defensive when sumedh made very generalizing belitteling remarks about the rest of the samradayas saying that their belief's are not established or Vedic and hinting especially the Gaudaiyas seem to be the only authentic people around with authentic literature. When I read other authentic scriptures than the Gaudiya, then I find them equally inspiring and evoking bhakti. Now the thing is that if a Gaudiya Vaishnava is so attached to his belief, a Shaiva can be equally attached. And he is a devotee too, just like us. And we need to respect his views.

And this is the mistake that we make. We want a lots and lots of respect for our own views and faith, but are ever ready to put down other faiths, scriptures and beliefs if they don't pass through our belief system's corridor. We should respect other people's beliefs too if we want them to respect our beliefs. And I think this is what happened in Guest3, shvu, Guest_rudra's case. We put down their beliefs, they defended and then we put them down more. Of course, my view may be accepted or not. Not everyone can take if they are told they are wrong.

Of course the main arguments were of sumedh, Guruvani.. and later on Vikram joined. And none of them openely put specifically Lord Shiva down, but they did hurt and hurl disrespect together towards the authenticity of Shaiv scriptures, Shaiv devotees - trying to show that all they do is smoke hash etc. In other words, the Shaiv devotees, and sampradayas were belittled, and this is comensurate to belitteling Lord Shiva and his worship. Of course you Vikram have softened this up by saying that you love Shiva too etc. But frankly your throwing up challenges, fist fights, boasting how you sponser Shiva worship once or taking up a bullish stance is far from Vaishnava behavior. It is not even Gaudiya behavior. "eunuch, idiotic, Hey you sicko, You belong in a psychiatric ward, demented etc" are not part of a Vaishnav's vocabulary really. But I guess, you are still too young (33?) and will gain maturity with time. Until then, wish you may not go around belitteling others. Your spiritual pursuit is commendable. I pray Lord Gauranga showers his mercy on you too. I feel you live far from his dham.

I appreciate Guest123's remark about the kanthi mala that we wear. And we have a lot to learn from it.

I'm from Mayapur and have spent time in Nabadvipa, Kolkata, Seattle. I have been in the Gaudiya math for the past 20 years. I also come from a tradition of Shiv and Kali worship in Bengal. And have known the traditions since early childhood. I could also relate to the tantrik beliefs of Guest3 as tantra and kali worship has always been an integral part of Bengali spiritual culture. And once a tantrik worshipper of Kali saved me from sure death, healing me completely from a sickness that doctors had given up on. I bowed before his sadhna and bhakti and sincerity in his worship through is methods that worked and he surely had his ishta Kali's blessings. And then lord Gauranga called me in his service.

The problem is not in worshipping Shiva or Krsna. Or one scripture hailing Shiva as supreme or Krsna as supreme. The problem is in our arrogance, false pride and lack of devotion, bhakti and sadhna. That is our problem. And that's why we see things in colored by our own egos. And the problem is us believing that what we believe in has to be right and we want to see others confirming it too. And not respecting others' beliefs. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to be too successful with this. But with Lord Gauranga's and Lord Shiva's mercy I've been able to get much better in the last few years. And I'm happy with the difference in the consciousness.

If we have to reach Lord Krsna, then we have to be humbler than the blade of grass, as our Lord Sri Chaitanya showed by his own example.

My humble obeisances to all.

Jai Gaurange!!!

 

Truly commendable post. Right on!!

Namah Shivaya!

[Guest guest]

My dandavats to your lotus feet HariShibdas Prabhu,

 

I actually read your post yesterday itself but am only replying briefly today. You are right on. I agree with everything that you said. In fact, this reminds me of Sri Gauranga Mahaprabhu's words trnad api sunicena ... of course and also of one of the teachings of our Parama-Gurudeva Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Thakura Prabhupada, in which he instructed us not to see the faults of others, but rather to look inwardly, in the depths of our own beings and endeavour to correct our mistakes and overcome our own failings. I think that this attitude is seriously lacking in many quarters of the global Vaisnava community nowadays, which is most deplorable. And I am ever ready to accept that I am the first one culpable for not being true to the spirit of Krsna and Guru.

 

I also offer my obeisances to Lord Hari, the remover of obstacles that arise on bhakti-marga, and to Lord Sadasiva, who is non-different from Lord Visnu, for inspiring you to teach me a very valuable lesson. I truly consider your words at be a manifestation of Guru-tattva, and I thank you for them.

 

Your servant,

Vikram

[sumedh]

 

Yes Sumedh. This is what is to be understood. And it doesn't come simply from "reading" and re-quoting endlessly shrutis, smritis, etc and "discussing and arguing Vedanta!

 

Actually it comes from bearing honesty, and sincerity of spiritual pursuit -- aparently simple basic things but profound.

 

 

Just like the the sun is one, but its reflection in different objects make it look many.

 

Do you mean that the differences (only aparent in your opinion) in various gods is due to that. Or do you mean that the differences in material things are due to that. Or you mean differences in jivas is that. Or you mean something else. In either case the bimba-pratibimba analogy does little to these ends since it is seen that the pratibimba has very little of the properties of the bimba, and no sort of equality can be made between bimba and pratibimba or different pratibimba's of the bimba. The differences that have been told between various entities (brahman, prakriti, jivas) in the scriptures are real and eternal.

 

 

Shiva says he is the weilder of prakriti and maya, but he is not affected by any of these. Even though he is the weilder of all this, He, the Maheshwara is beyond it. And the differences seen in the world is the nature of maya and prakriti.

...

But i doubt too that you have the depth, patience or understanding to understrand this Sumedh Unless and until, strict sampradaya flag bearers go beyond their petty attachments of one or the other aspect of this divinity, they can't have the vision to look beyond maya and prakriti that keeps them bound to their respective limited ideologies.

 

Which brings out the point that you do not believe in vaishnava philosophies for these ideas are opposed to that. Of course, your ideas are all very fine with yourself but be prepared to base them on some pramanas when you challenge others. As such resorting to "experiences" and the stuff is not useful for it is seen that different persons claiming self-realization etc. express different (and contradictory) views as being the Truth; we also find in our shastras that even the greatest rishis were subject to periods of ignorance, so that there is no basis to claim immunity for "experiences". We also see that every human experiences the material world yet expresses different opinions for material facts, and there is no reason to believe that opinions drawn out of experience of other realms, even if they be genuine, are any less error prone.

 

 

I don't talk for record.

 

Well Ykji your hiding under "Guest3" is testimony of that.

 

 

Madhusudan diverged on his personal experience. The problem is that you are trying to discuss Vedanta with a tantrik yogi!!

 

Madhusudan Saraswati is no "tantrik yogi"; please read "advaita siddhi" (or his other books) or get at least some basic information about him and his beliefs before trying to go on about him.

 

 

Tantra is a practical science. And the yogis you quote sometimes were yogis first and proved the quotations written in scriptures to themselves first on the basis of their personal sadhna. In other words, these quotes were realized knowledge by the writers. You don't realize this knowledge. You simply cram it and preach it without realizing it first! So you can't understand the intricacies of these experiences.

 

Shankracharya was a staunch Shaiva himself. He did dismiss a few practices. He did not dismiss All the Shaiva schools of his time! This is an inaffective jab! Practical knowledge had to come from Tantras. Because the tantras show the path to sadhna. Shankaracharya was a sadhka first, then a Vedantist. He spoke with knowledge realized!! And that's why he is worship-able. Without the tantras, the practical sadhna paths would have been lost.

 

Which answers the question as saying that you have not read either Shankaracharya, or Madhusudan Saraswati or works of any of the other advaita acharyas.

 

 

I've read enough of your tradition. Now its time for you to read my tradition. Ready?

 

This is interesting. You have no knowledge of your own advaita tradition, but you claim to have knowledge of vaishnava traditions -- a little unbelievable don't you think. To be fair, you seem to be a follower of tantras though I doubt you have read any of the trantra texts.

 

 

Similarly, you preach why read Vedas when we have Bhagwatam and Gita.

 

More interesting comments from your side. You are invited to present quotes where the gaudiya acharyas have said that vedas should not be read when they have themselves written commentries on some parts of them.

 

 

But when you have to argue, you would quote everything from everywhere and not even accept words said by Krsna himself, if they are not turfing along your sampradaya line of philosophy. Pretty opportunistic and double standard.

 

Even the words of Lord are not considered final (e.g. Lord Buddha's words who is considered an avataara by all sampradayas including advaita) all the time for they can be aimed at some purpose other than imparting true knowledge. Of course, if you present specific instances where Lord Krishna's words are rejected then it can be explained without resorting to some over-generalizations.

 

 

You have to understand the concept of "vayu" here. But since you are not a yogi and don't give importance to prana, apana, it is hard to tell this to you. But Shiva is the controller of prana. He is not only Bhole Nath, but Prana Nath. Vayu here is refered to as Prana Vayu. And Vayu is also the vayu devta. Shiva had complete control over vayu and Prana vayu while drinking the halahala. You just got hold of one vayu verse and are now ready to minimise Shiva's drinking of halahala.

 

The "vayu" here refers to the personality also referred to as "mukhya prana" while "pravaha vayu" is his partial understanding, and he is the highest among abhimani devatas as told in Chandogya upanishad. Read the full keshi sukta (also called as vayu sukta) for reference and the episode of samudra manthan where Shiva is told to be the secondary consumer of halahala and the subsequent verses of this sukta. There are also many other smriti pramanas where it is told that Shiva was protected from the effects of halahala due to the namatraya (om achyutAnantagovinda om) e.g. Garuda Purana where Lord Shiva tells Parvati that before cosuming the poison he meditated on Sri Hari and so was able to consume the poison, or Brahmanda purana, or in mantra shastras etc.

 

 

Yes we all do err... don't we sumedh? You do belong to the HK cult. Don't you? I used cult, cuz we all worship Krsna. But the HKs are a special lot. Who have perched themselves above everybody else. Doesn't this make you feel so special? It does sorts of...

 

The point being that imagining the beliefs of other person and then attacking that is a straw-man argument. At any rate a sensible argument is based on the statements of the other person and not on your own notions of what he/she might or might not be believing.

[amrita dasi]

discussions like these are futile. they're ego.

Just surrender to God and pray. The answer to all questions comes from within

 

shanti shanti shanti.

[Guest guest]

 

discussions like these are futile. they're ego.

Just surrender to God and pray. The answer to all questions comes from within

 

shanti shanti shanti.

Yes btu some fools love to argue. They have to show off their ego that they have read a few books. Now they have to flaunt it. he he..! Your post is very commendable Amrita Dasi.