8,000,400 different species in the universe?

[Guruvani]

Conversational statements are always pablum as far as I am concerned.

 

When are we going to stop nursing on pablum and start eating the shastic diet that Mahaprabhu gave?

 

Gadadhar Pandit lived on Srimad Bhagavatam and he never gave any commentary that described portions of it as being fiction or fantasy.

 

There comes a time when branches of the Gaudiya sect need to stop trying to show supremecy with some special, elevated, unprecedented insight into the shastra.

 

I think the Bhaktivedanta title of Srila Prabhupada was very appropriate.

 

He just came to give the shastra in simple and standard terms without trying to discover some very secret and special hidden meaning.

 

I am satisfied with that.

 

I don't need or want any radical, revolutionary, controversial or divisive explanations of the ancient scriptures.

 

I just want the same thing that the devotees of Gaura lila were happy with and I don't need anything that is supposed to be an advance beyond that.

 

Bhaktivinode's radical and revolutionary statements have no precedent.

 

it is was good enough for the six goswamis, it is good enough for me.

[muralidhar_das]

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Thakura Bhaktivinode

In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his "Paradise Lost" . These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy.

.

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KB, here is the whole paragraph. I assumed you had already seen this book.

Parts of it are printed in the beginning of "Search For Sri Krishna".

 

Here is the entire paragraph:

 

 

In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his "Paradise Lost". These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such a poetry. Indeed, in some of the chapters we meet with descriptions of these hells and heavens, and accounts of curious tales, but we have been warned somewhere in the book, not to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant. The Bhagavata, certainly tells us a state of reward and punishment in future according to deeds in our present situation. All poetic inventions, besides this spiritual fact, have been described as statements borrowed from other works in the way of preservation of old traditions in the book which superseded them and put an end to the necessity of their storage. If the whole stock of Hindu theological works which preceded the Bhagavata were burnt like the Alexandrian library and the sacred Bhagavata preserved as it is, not a part of the philosophy of the Hindus except that of the atheistic sects, would be lost. The Bhagavata therefore, may be styled both as a religious work and a compendium of all Hindu history and philosophy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guruvani]

 

KB, you can download the entire Bhagavat Lecture here:

 

www.mandala.com.au/books/bhagavata.pdf

 

Thakura Bhaktivinode said that the hells described in the scriptures are

 

QUOTE ::

 

certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people

 

:: UNQUOTE

 

Thanks for the offer prabhu, but I have had a copy of that book since 1982 or whenever the book was published at the San Jose temple.(probably before you even knew of Srila Sridhar Maharaja).

 

I have read the book several times

[muralidhar_das]

 

 

Bhaktivinode's radical and revolutionary statements have no precedent.

 

it is was good enough for the six goswamis, it is good enough for me.

 

Wow....

 

Please see that there is no need for you to feel disturbed.

 

Bhaktivinode's statements take us to the point where we need to be. We need to see how things really are.

 

The scriptures are books to help us attain spiritual understanding. They are not books about material topics.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

When are we going to stop nursing on pablum and start eating the shastic diet that Mahaprabhu gave?

 

Well, there are no prerequisites for chanting the Holy Names, but there *are* prerequisites for studying Srimad Bhagavatam, are there not?

 

Isn't some degree of purity required?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Thanks for the offer prabhu, but I have had a copy of that book since 1982 or whenever the book was published at the San Jose temple.(probably before you even knew of Srila Sridhar Maharaja).

 

I have read the book several times

 

That's very good. Read it another several thousand times and it might start to sink in, eh?

 

[Guruvani]

 

but we have been warned somewhere in the book, not to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant. The Bhagavata, certainly tells us a state of reward and punishment in future according to deeds in our present situation. All poetic inventions, besides this spiritual fact, have been described as statements borrowed from other works in the way of preservation of old traditions in the book which superseded them and put an end to the necessity of their storage

Please show us where in Srimad Bhagavatam this has been said.

 

I haven't been able to find any such statements in the book and such a statement seems to demolish the idea the Srimad Bhagavatam is the "amalam purana" or spotless purana.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Please show us where in Srimad Bhagavatam this has been said.

 

I haven't been able to find any such statements in the book and such a statement seems to demolish the idea the Srimdad Bhagavatam is the "amalam purana" or spotless purana.

 

Why ask me?

 

Ask Bhaktivinode Thakura.

 

Ask him next time you wave incense at his feet.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Why ask me?

 

Ask Bhaktivinode Thakura.

 

Ask him next time you wave incense at his feet.

 

Ziiiiinggg!!! Yowzas!!

 

Well, Prabhus, thanks for your good association, but I've got to dash to pick up the kids.

 

This is another day I managed to get little useful done for my employers, but found much nourishment pouring from the mice and keyboards of the Vaishnavas.

 

Gaura Hari!!!!

[Guruvani]

so, Muralidhar is saying that Bhaktivinode said that Srimad Bhagavatam is a "common-place book of the Hindus where raja guna and tamo guna are described as the ways of religion".

 

OK...........

 

Hey, I aint no genius, but even I can see that there is something very wrong about referring to Srimad Bhagavatam in these terms.

[muralidhar_das]

 

so, Muralidhar is saying that Bhaktivinode said that Srimad Bhagavatam is a "common-place book of the Hindus where raja guna and tamo guna are described as the ways of religion".

 

OK...........

 

Hey, I aint no genius, but even I can see that there is something very wrong about referring to Srimad Bhagavatam in these terms.

 

Prabhu I'm not trying to be evil and I'm not aiming to make you feel bad.

 

Thakur Bhaktivinode said this:

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> In the common-place books of the Hindu religion in which the rajo and tamo-guna have been described as the ways of religion, we have descriptions of a local heaven and a local hell; the Heaven as beautiful as anything on earth and the Hell as ghastly as any picture of evil. Besides this Heaven we have many more places, where good souls are sent up in the way of promotion! There are 84 divisions of the hell itself, some more dreadful than the one which Milton has described in his "Paradise Lost". These are certainly poetical and were originally created by the rulers of the country in order to check evil deeds of the ignorant people, who are not able to understand the conclusions of philosophy. The religion of the Bhagavata is free from such a poetry. Indeed, in some of the chapters we meet with descriptions of these hells and heavens, and accounts of curious tales, but we have been warned somewhere in the book, not to accept them as real facts, but as inventions to overawe the wicked and to improve the simple and the ignorant. The Bhagavata, certainly tells us a state of reward and punishment in future according to deeds in our present situation. All poetic inventions, besides this spiritual fact, have been described as statements borrowed from other works in the way of preservation of old traditions in the book which superseded them and put an end to the necessity of their storage. If the whole stock of Hindu theological works which preceded the Bhagavata were burnt like the Alexandrian library and the sacred Bhagavata preserved as it is, not a part of the philosophy of the Hindus except that of the atheistic sects, would be lost. The Bhagavata therefore, may be styled both as a religious work and a compendium of all Hindu history and philosophy.

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His words, not mine.

[theist]

 

As I mentioned above, Theist-ji, the lack of evidence cannot prove anything. Only proof to the contrary would.

 

Lack of evidence points to the conclusion that I have reached, No 3d war. if there were the proper amount of artifacts ther that would tend to prove your position but there are none,

 

 

Consider for a moment, the surface area of the world. Then consider just how many archeological digs have taken place. There is no way to claim that even the smallest portion of the archeological record has been revealed.

 

Even then, as far as Kurukshetra goes, there is the description of weapons of similar intensity to conventional nuclear weapons. If such weapons were in play, one would expect to find little remaining except some melted glass.

 

Sorry Murali prabhu, I don't buy it. Melted by nuclear weapons. Please. I mean does that really convince you? If so that's ok. I am only interested in the instructions of Krsna on karma/bhakti yoga, on the body not being the self, on surrender to the Lord being the ultimate goal. None of which demand a 3d war to be realized. From the other perspective believing in a literal 3d war is no impediment to the same realization.

 

No loss for either us the way I see it.

[theist]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

I don't care if it is all just a literary vehicle by which Krsna chose to tell His story through some inspired transcendenatlists.

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<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> And earlier, I said:

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> This is exactly how I feel

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Missed it. Looks like there are at least two heretics in the house. I don't feel so lonely now. :-)

 

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[Guest guest]

Modern science has arrived at a point where a lot of basic assuptions about our world has been put into question, even such axiomatic concepts as time and and space. I have no doubt that our collective consciousness affects the way this world appears. Yes, I believe that consciousness affects matter.

 

I am quite sure that 5000 years ago shape-shifting Rakshasa demons did indeed walk on earth as there are similar accounts from other cultures as well. There are even fairly recent accounts of similar beings. At the same time there are many passages in the shastras which are allegorical, or more visionary than factual - even very orthodox acharyas like Prabhupada admit that.

 

This world is actually far, far more complex than most of us can imagine - even most of our current scientists know that. Trying to reduce this complexity to what the late 19th century science can digest is a pretty absurd proposition for a 21st century devotee.

 

I dont believe that our acharyas gave us a perfect knowledge about all minute details of creation - they gave us a perfect knowledge about this world in general, explaining it's basic mechanisms, laws, and principles.

 

Perhaps the reason behind reprinting Sri Krishna Samhita by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was not the value of Bhaktivinoda's pronouncements on the nature of Lord Ramachandra's "monkey army", but a validation of all sincere attempts to explain sastra in the light of modern knowledge.

 

Acharya means "one who teaches by his example". Bhaktivinoda was not afraid to think for himself. Neither was Bhaktisiddhanta, nor Srila Prabhupada. How often does Srila Prabhupada quote his own guru for example? Hardly ever. Yet we have been brainwashed into rejecting our own rationality, our own thought process, to become mere parrots of old quotes... from the "reform movement" we have become the "orthodoxy movement", unable to jump over our own lines in the sand. Big sannyasis afraid to speak their mind -that is about as far from being brahminical and fearless as it gets - yet today this is our Iskcon standard. We cant solve our own problems yet we think we can save the world...

 

As long as we have no courage to honestly and openly analyze our own problems these problems will destroy us from within. Intellectual honesty is required.

[Guruvani]

Well, considering that the oldest metal tools and weapons ever found in India date back to 3300 BC, which is supposed to be the beginning of the Bronze age in India, we have to question how did the great armies of Kurukshetra and the Vedic kshatriya come up with swords and spears?

Were their weapons all made out of wood?

 

Or, were they made out of bronze?

They surely were not made out of steel as we have today.

 

What sort of archaeological evidence can we expect from the "stone-age"?

 

According to science, 5000 years ago was the stone-age as far as tools and weapons are concerned.

 

Sure, there are a lot of questions about why there are no traces of anything described in Mahabharata.

 

There is not a trace of anything archaeological to prove that the history of the Mahabharata is an actual history and is not simply mythology.

 

Where do we go from here?

 

We have no science, no archaeology, no physical evidence that the history of Mahabharata is anything more than mythology.

 

So, where do we draw the line at what we believe and what we classify as poetic description.

 

Same goes for Ramayana.

 

None of it has any scientific proof.

 

Why do we need to start seperating one part as fact and nother part as Valmiki's prejudice against the non-aryan tribes of South India?

 

I think the whole matter just opens up a can of worms than can only cause more disturbance to the credibility of the ancient Indian scriptures.

 

I think to hold anything spiritual up to some scientific scrutiny is a mistake and an assault on the Vedic traditions.

[theist]

 

[...]

 

I am quite sure that 5000 years ago shape-shifting Rakshasa demons did indeed walk on earth as there are similar accounts from other cultures as well. There are even fairly recent accounts of similar beings. At the same time there are many passages in the shastras which are allegorical, or more visionary than factual - even very orthodox acharyas like Prabhupada admit that.

 

Yes he did. And the example is onced used was the Rahus demon's head chasing the Chandra the moon. The trick is where to drw the line on what really happened vs, what could have happened. These shapshifters although factual also make wonderful literay tools.

 

I also have a wide open view of this material world, at least as wide open as I can perceive. I accept that this universe is composed of various corresponding dimensions that sometimes overlap bringing the unsuspecting inhabitants of one inter communication with another. I have experienced this and know it to be true although I have no way to explain it to anyone in scientific terms.

 

 

This world is actually far, far more complex than most of us can imagine - even most of our current scientists know that. Trying to reduce this complexity to what the late 19th century science can digest is a pretty absurd proposition for a 21st century devotee.

 

Yes you are right. And there is no point in doing so. It is not fruitful to try and debate our point of believe because even if someone on the other side of the debate comes to accept our position there is no factual spiritual gain for them because these controversies in and of themselves are not spiritual.

 

There is one important area which is important. In the late seventies iskcon devotees were really on the world is flat kick and spoke this without discrimination to people in general. I remeber challenging many of them to explain modern mapping of the earth from satelites which show the earth to be round. Also the fact that we can take an airplane around the world without noticing the earth is flat. The universal response was, "THE DEMIGODS ARE FOOLING THE DEMONS INTO THINKING THE EARTH IS ROUND." I swear this is true. This sort of ignorance should be challenged before such silly people turn off the world to Krsna consciousness.

 

 

I dont believe that our acharyas gave us a perfect knowledge about all minute details of creation - they gave us a perfect knowledge about this world in general, explaining it's basic mechanisms, laws, and principles.

 

I feel the same. This world is a suffering and bewildering collection of birth, death, old age and disease. Getting this message about the material world has great value in promoting spiritual investigation. But what need to go beyond this? And this fact can be shown with a billion modern day examples so why rely on old stories, true or not, to convey this vital understanding?

 

Perhaps the reason behind reprinting Sri Krishna Samhita by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was not the value of Bhaktivinoda's pronouncements on the nature of Lord Ramachandra's "monkey army", but a validation of all sincere attempts to explain sastra in the light of modern knowledge.

 

 

Acharya means "one who teaches by his example". Bhaktivinoda was not afraid to think for himself. Neither was Bhaktisiddhanta, nor Srila Prabhupada. How often does Srila Prabhupada quote his own guru for example? Hardly ever. Yet we have been brainwashed into rejecting our own rationality, our own thought process, to become mere parrots of old quotes... from the "reform movement" we have become the "orthodoxy movement", unable to jump over our own lines in the sand. Big sannyasis afraid to speak their mind -that is about as far from being brahminical and fearless as it gets - yet today this is our Iskcon standard. We cant solve our own problems yet we think we can save the world...

 

As long as we have no courage to honestly and openly analyze our own problems these problems will destroy us from within. Intellectual honesty is required.

 

And courage is needed by us all as we are in the position of having to face death and the dreaded rebirth. Really we need that courage born only of factual realization.

[theist]

A perfect example of fear masquerading as faith.

 

 

Sure, there are a lot of questions about why there are no traces of anything described in Mahabharata.

 

There is not a trace of anything archaeological to prove that the history of the Mahabharata is an actual history and is not simply mythology.

 

Where do we go from here?

 

We have no science, no archaeology, no physical evidence that the history of Mahabharata is anything more than mythology.

 

So, where do we draw the line at what we believe and what we classify as poetic description.

 

Same goes for Ramayana.

 

None of it has any scientific proof.

 

Why do we need to start seperating one part as fact and nother part as Valmiki's prejudice against the non-aryan tribes of South India?

 

I think the whole matter just opens up a can of worms than can only cause more disturbance to the credibility of the ancient Indian scriptures.

 

I think to hold anything spiritual up to some scientific scrutiny is a mistake and an assault on the Vedic traditions.

 

 

Be careful, don't ask too many questions or you may find that some of what you believe in may not be true. Then what will you do? Crisis time. This is like a child being afraid to ask if Santa Claus is real for fear of losing his cherished object of belief in Santa Claus in the wake of the truth.

 

Someone who thinks that by scrutinizing the vedas threadbare then God will be lost is basically an atheist as it is with no knowledge or faith in the reality of God.

 

God is real. God is a spiritual person. We are parts of Him and therefore also spiritual persons although minute. God is etenal. We are eternal. Our highest expressions of life come in the form our loving relatonships with Him. etc. This is the zone of Krsna consciousness.

 

You can burn every scripture on earth and these truths will remain unaffected.

 

We must build our faith on eternal principles and not worry about other things.

[Guruvani]

 

A perfect example of fear masquerading as faith.

 

 

 

Be careful, don't ask too many questions or you may find that some of what you believe in may not be true. Then what will you do? Crisis time. This is like a child being afraid to ask if Santa Claus is real for fear of losing his cherished object of belief in Santa Claus in the wake of the truth.

 

Someone who thinks that by scrutinizing the vedas threadbare then God will be lost is basically an atheist as it is with no knowledge or faith in the reality of God.

 

God is real. God is a spiritual person. We are parts of Him and therefore also spiritual persons although minute. God is etenal. We are eternal. Our highest expressions of life come in the form our loving relatonships with Him. etc. This is the zone of Krsna consciousness.

 

You can burn every scripture on earth and these truths will remain unaffected.

 

We must build our faith on eternal principles and not worry about other things.

 

So, you accept the instructions of Krishna, but you don't accept that Vrindavan existed or that the battle of Kurukshetra existed or that Dwaraka existed.

 

So, you like Krishna's instructions but to you he is just an allegorical figure in some mythological stories that never really happened but that serve a purpose so that the allegorical character of Krishna can pontificate about Karma-yoga and bhakti-yoga to a God that is real but whose pastimes on Earth are all fictional stories that simply serve to advocate eternal principles in mythological events?

 

Ok, I think I know where you are coming from.

 

You are just very mixed-up and don't know what the hell you believe.

[theist]

 

So, you accept the instructions of Krishna, but you don't accept that Vrindavan existed or that the battle of Kurukshetra existed or that Dwaraka existed.

 

So, you like Krishna's instructions but to you he is just an allegorical figure in some mythological stories that never really happened but that serve a purpose so that the allegorical character of Krishna can pontificate about Karma-yoga and bhakti-yoga to a God that is real but whose pastimes on Earth are all fictional stories that simply serve to advocate eternal principles in mythological events?

 

Ok, I think I know where you are coming from.

 

You are just very mixed-up and don't know what the hell you believe.

 

Of course you don't understand what I am saying guruvani. I do accept Krsna as the Supreme Being. I just don't believe His pastimes have to manifest on this Earth in a 3D way to be Real.

 

Because He is the Absolute Truth He can just as easily advent Himself through the mind of His devotee as a literary incarnation. What really is the difference. Do you think this gross manifestation is any more real then the subtle material dimenson of thought? All energies are the same to Krsna. But if you accept the traditional explanation as literal fact then that is your business. Although you can't back it up by any factual evidence, as you yourself admit, you can point to your line of gurus who say the same thing. I have no problem with that although I think otherwise.

 

Flat earth, one sun in the universe, six billion bodyguards for Ugrasena all crammed into Mathura and that is not counting the rest of the population, the head of rahu the demon trying to eat the moon which is the cause of the eclipse, ad infinitum.

 

The thing is you have no right to try to impose those beliefs on others. I have trouble accepting Krsna without having to pretend to accept all those statements, in fact I find it much easier. I even accept that the manifest land of Vrndavana outside of Delhi is a spiritual portal to Goloka even while not accepting that some demon was killed there and crushed 8 miles of forest when falling to it's death.

 

But your cry out not to ask questions about these things belies the fear and faithless nature of your position. But again that is your business. I am learning to make free thought and enquiry my business.

 

As Srila Prabhupada writes in th Gita "blind faith is condemned."

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

There is one important area which is important. In the late seventies iskcon devotees were really on the world is flat kick and spoke this without discrimination to people in general. I remeber challenging many of them to explain modern mapping of the earth from satelites which show the earth to be round. Also the fact that we can take an airplane around the world without noticing the earth is flat. The universal response was, "THE DEMIGODS ARE FOOLING THE DEMONS INTO THINKING THE EARTH IS ROUND." I swear this is true. This sort of ignorance should be challenged before such silly people turn off the world to Krsna consciousness.

 

Yes, I recall that phenomenon well. Of course, it's altogether possible that we *are* being fooled into thinking (and percieving) that the world is round when it is really flat.

 

Recall the lila between Sri Krishna and Lord Brahma. By the Lord's sweet will, all the residents of Vrindavan were fooled into thinking that all their relatives and cows were present when they had been sequestered in a cave for a year.

 

For the Lord, tricking us into thinking the world is round, and assuring that our "science" will verify this and all experiments and physical laws will be consistent with this is a trivial matter.

 

Even in the realm of mathematics (topography, to be precise), there is so much expertise in manipulating shapes.

 

In Physics, with string theory and the like, we see consideration that so many seemingly impossible things are possible.

 

Now, do I agree with you that it's probably not a good idea to postulate such things to the faithless? Absolutely.

 

Going back to the 8,400,000 number you question. Just this morning, I came across this article (linked to from Slashdot):

 

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-05/eol-wls050507.php

 

In it is the claim that science has identified and named 1.8 million species on this planet. So, since this number and the number given in the Vedas are within an order of magnitude in difference, and given the scientific assumption that, if life exists elsewhere in the universe, it is not very common, I'd say the 8,400,000 number passes the "straight face" test.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

six billion bodyguards for Ugrasena all crammed into Mathura

 

If 5.999 billion of those bodyguards were in the form of friendly intestinal flora (you probably have a similar number within your own innards), this is not at all a stretch of the imagination.

 

Not saying that I (or anyone) can rationally explain all these puzzling things, just saying that we cannot deny such a rational explanation exists--regardless of how far beyond our comprehension it is.

 

I really should try to get some work done today...

[theist]

 

In it is the claim that science has identified and named 1.8 million species on this planet. So, since this number and the number given in the Vedas are within an order of magnitude in difference, and given the scientific assumption that, if life exists elsewhere in the universe, it is not very common, I'd say the 8,400,000 number passes the "straight face" test.

 

 

Well the problem is the vedas also talk of other life in the universe as being the norm and not uncommon at all. We can't ignore this statement in the vedas and still accept the 8,000,4000 species in the universe statement.

 

Fire bodies on the sun globe. Would they not be considered other species also? I accept life in this form on the sun. I also accept that the majority of life in this universe is subtle, as in so-called dark matter. umlimited forms.

 

Now you postulated archetypes and I think this is by far the best possibility for for the 8,000,4000 figure although I am ot sure that is what was meant by the sages in the vedas.

[theist]

 

If 5.999 billion of those bodyguards were in the form of friendly intestinal flora (you probably have a similar number within your own innards), this is not at all a stretch of the imagination.

 

Not saying that I (or anyone) can rationally explain all these puzzling things, just saying that we cannot deny such a rational explanation exists--regardless of how far beyond our comprehension it is.

 

I really should try to get some work done today...

 

Forget work. :-)

 

Intestinal flora are not considered bodyguards in the sense meant in the SB. I appreciate my lactobacilus colonies in my gut but they can't protect me from a hit put on me by Tony Soprano.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Well the problem is the vedas also talk of other life in the universe as being the norm and not uncommon at all. We can't ignore this statement in the vedas and still accept the 8,000,4000 species in the universe statement.

 

Fire bodies on the sun globe. Would they not be considered other species also? I accept life in this form on the sun. I also accept that the majority of life in this universe is subtle, as in so-called dark matter. umlimited forms.

 

Now you postulated archetypes and I think this is by far the best possibility for for the 8,000,4000 figure although I am ot sure that is what was meant by the sages in the vedas.

I could (and maybe I will) continue with my rational extrapolations in reply to you, but this highlights one of the great limitations of science, namely, that much of science consists of rational extrapolations based on what really amounts to an insignificant amount of data.

 

So, acknowledging that these are mere musings, and the further we get from the actual data, the more tenuous our position becomes...

 

Yes, according to the Vedas, many of the life forms in the universe are not gross (as our bodies are) but are subtle. Granted that they are subtle, would it not also be fair to assume that they are not as geographically constrained as the gross forms of life? Perhaps they can travel through gross matter at will? If so, perhaps there are only a handful of such forms (say a couple of hundred thousand) in the universe.

 

As for gross life forms, fire bodies aside, is it not a fair assumption that (especially if we assume the 8,400,000 are archetypes), on planets similar to ours, that similar (if not identical) forms of life would have arisen?

 

Way back in the beginning of this thread, Theist-ji, you seemed to imply that science had already identified more than 8,400,000 species. Now that that assumption appears to be patently false, why hang stubbornly onto your skepticism? Can you not suspend your judgement?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I appreciate my lactobacilus colonies in my gut but they can't protect me from a hit put on me by Tony Soprano.

 

Perhaps they can if the "hit" takes the form of some sort of food poisoning (yes, that would be uncharacteristically subtle for Tony).

 

So much for work...