8,000,400 different species in the universe?

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

Flat earth, one sun in the universe, six billion bodyguards for Ugrasena all crammed into Mathura and that is not counting the rest of the population, the head of rahu the demon trying to eat the moon which is the cause of the eclipse, ad infinitum.

I have heard other haters of the Bhagavatam say that the Bhagavatam says the Earth is flat, but I haven't yet seen one show the verses in the Bhagavatam that says the world is flat.

Year after year you guys keeping making the same accusations against the Bhagavatam, but not of you have been able to show a verse in the Bhagavatam that says that the Earth is flat.

If you can't substantiate your accusastions, then maybe you should just shut-up about it?

theist · May 9, 2007

Why does Sadaputa need to try to reconcile the flat earth business with modern science by claiming what was really being called flat in the Bhagavatam refered to a whole plane of planets.

(I don't hate the Bhagavatam guruvani. It's true I generally hate the so-called version that comes from your mouth but not the work ascribed to Vyasadeva.)

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</td> <td colspan="2" valign="top">Sadaputa Prabhu has recently published his latest book on science and Vedic knowledge. In addition to the book he has produced a multimedia CD-ROM illustrated with computer animations, over 250 color pictures, and original artwork. The book contains 375 pages, 104 illustrations, 51 tables, a glossary, a bibliography, and an index and retails for $15.95 Richard L. Thompson (Sadaputa Dasa) (11-15-00)

Sadaputa Prabhu has recently published his latest book on science and Vedic knowledge entitled Mysteries of the Sacred Universe: The Cosmology of the Bhagavata Purana. In addition to the book he has produced a multimedia CD-ROM illustrated with computer animations, over 250 color pictures, and original artwork. The book contains 375 pages, 104 illustrations, 51 tables, a glossary, a bibliography, and an index and retails for $15.95. A nice summary appears in the November/December issue of Back to Godhead magazine, and more information can be found at: http://sacreduniverse.com

>From the flat earth to the sun's chariot, traditional spiritual texts often seem wedded to outmoded cosmologies that show, at best, the scientific limitations of their authors. The Srimad Bhagavatam, seems, at first glance, to be no exception. However, a closer examination of this text reveals unexpected depths of knowledge in ancient cosmology. Mysteries of the Sacred Universe shows that the Bhagavatam's cosmology is a sophisticated system, with multiple levels of meaning that encode at least four different astronomical, geographical, and spiritual world models.

By viewing the text in the light of modern astronomy, Sadaputa shows how ancient scientists expressed exact knowledge in apparently mythological terms. Comparison with the ancient traditions of Egypt and the Near East shows early cultural connections between India and these regionsincluding a surprisingly advanced science. However, quantitative science is only part of the picture. Mysteries of the Sacred Universe also offers a clear understanding of how the spiritual dimension was integrated into ancient Indian cosmology.

The book as been well received by devotees, scholars, and popular writers as well. Hridayananda dasa Goswami wrote, "Mysteries of the Sacred Universe by Sadaputa Prabhu constitutes yet another outstanding achievement in the distinguished career of this very important scholar. At a time when a somewhat dogmatic orthodoxy tends to govern academia, Sadaputa displays here all the intellectual ability, academic rigor, and the personal courage and creativity necessary to produce his brilliant discovery of the modern scientific relevance of ancient, Sanskrit descriptions of the universe. The large and growing number of rational human beings who cannot accept that ancient peoples were simply less evolved versions of ourselves, will find here a treasure of hard data and masterful reasoning to the contrary."

Professor Gene R. Thursby, of University of Florida, observed, "A revolution in our understanding of the cosmology of the Puranas is in the making here.

This book offers a way of reading ancient Indian texts that is profoundly interesting and that overturns a long history of scholarly undervaluation of the supposedly only mythological' contents of Puranic literature."

Robert G. Bauval, coauthor of both The Orion Mystery and The Message of the Sphinx commented, "Gripping, scholarly, and groundbreaking, Mysteries of the Sacred Universe deserves to be widely read and discussed."

Describing the interactive CD-ROM, Professor Subash Kak of Louisiana State University wrote, "The CD accompanying the book is also outstanding. The graphics are spellbinding."

In April 27, 1976, Srila Prabhupada wrote Svarupa Damodara Maharaja, "So now all you Ph.D.'s must carefully study the details of the Fifth Canto and make a working model of the universe. If we can explain the passing seasons, eclipses, phases of the moon, passing of day and night, etc., then it will be very powerful propaganda." Mysteries of the Sacred Universe and its interactive CD are a great contribution to the fulfillment of this desire of Srila Prabhupada.

Govardhan Hill Publishing

e-mail: ghi@nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu

WWW: http://nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu/ghi

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Guruvani · May 9, 2007

Why does Sadaputa need to try to reconcile the flat earth business with modern science by claiming what was really being called flat in the Bhagavatam refered to a whole plane of planets.

(I don't hate the Bhagavatam guruvani. It's true I generally hate the so-called version that comes from your mouth but not the work ascribed to Vyasadeva.)

So, what you are saying is that you don't know of any verse in the Bhagavatam that says the Earth is flat, but you have just accepted the rumor that some have circulated?

Ok, I got it now.

Murali_Mohan_das · May 9, 2007

So, what you are saying is that you don't know of any verse in the Bhagavatam that says the Earth is flat, but you have just accepted the rumor that some have circulated?

Ok, I got it now.

Guruvani-ji. Are you and Chaturbahu Prabhu Bhakti-Raja twin brothers by any chance? Your boastful moods (which I have favorably compared to that of Lord Balarama) are so very similar.

Perhaps there is not a verse in Bhagavatam which explicitly states the Earth is flat, but, from reading this chapter literally, one would certainly assume that the *Universe*, not just this world, is flat:

http://vedabase.net/sb/5/20/en

I did a Google search for "Concentric circles vedabase" since I recall the universe being described in those terms. Interestingly, I got results for both "concentric circles" as well as "concentric shells". A circle, of course, is flat. A "shell" is a sphere.

No need for personal (ad hominem) attacks on those trying to faithfully serve Gurudev.

theist · May 9, 2007

Way back in the beginning of this thread, Theist-ji, you seemed to imply that science had already identified more than 8,400,000 species. Now that that assumption appears to be patently false, why hang stubbornly onto your skepticism? Can you not suspend your judgement?

Depends on what consitutes a species according to vedas and the scientists. I am not sure they are using the same definitions. I stated that right off as well. Plus I don't have faith in modern science either. Many of them still think we may be alone, or next to it, in the universe.

What I question is the dogmatic belief that because some number shows up in a vedic text I have to throw all reason out the window and just accept it. This is my real point. I don't care to worry about the actual number of species.

theist · May 9, 2007

I never coulkd get into that section of the 5th canto with that giant mountain and the ocean of liquor all suspended in space or whatever. I have no plans to revisit it. Sqaaputa says it is there and tries to explain it. trhat is good enough for me.

Now about one sun in the universe and Rahu's head causing eclipses.

muralidhar_das · May 9, 2007

Perhaps the reason behind reprinting Sri Krishna Samhita by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was not the value of Bhaktivinoda's pronouncements on the nature of Lord Ramachandra's "monkey army", but a validation of all sincere attempts to explain sastra in the light of modern knowledge.

I don't have any information about "why" Srila Saraswati Thakura printed Sri Krishna Samhita two times, and why he promoted it.

But my personal reason for discussing it here is not that I am a fundamentalist follower of "Sri Krishna Samhita" who is trying to fight against "tradition". It is simply that I feel the things written in Sri Krishna Samhita show us that it is not wrong to examine things from our "modern" perspective since we are all modern age people.

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

I never coulkd get into that section of the 5th canto with that giant mountain and the ocean of liquor all suspended in space or whatever. I have no plans to revisit it. Sqaaputa says it is there and tries to explain it. trhat is good enough for me.

Now about one sun in the universe and Rahu's head causing eclipses.

So, you have full faith in Sadaputa that what he says is the perfect understanding of what the Bhagavat says about cosmology.

I'll bet you $10 bucks that Sadaputa doesn't even know Sanskrit.

If you had as much faith in Prabhupada as you have in Sadaputa you would actually have something going for you.

The descriptions of the Universe in the 5th canto are about Sukadeva Goswami giving his disciple Maharaja Parikshit a transcendental conception of the universal form of the Lord.

The last thing that Sukadeva Goswami wanted to do was bring the consciousness of Maharaja Parikshit back to the mundane aspect of the universe that you are so fond of.

You see the universe from the mode of ignorance.

Sukadeva Goswami saw the universe from the mode of goodness.

The universe as seen through a sage in the mode of goodness or who is transcendentally situated is a different reality than the reality you see with your mundane eyeballs.

You don't have any problem in putting your faith in NASA or the scientific community or Sadaputa, but you get all frigid when Sukadeva Goswami reveals a dimension of the universe that you will never be able to understand from the mode of ignorance.

Sukadeva was trying to turn the consciousness of Parikshit to the transcendence and was describing things that was taking Parikshit from material absorbtion to transcendence.

If you think that seeing the universe through the eyes of science is going to help you become transcendental then that is very ignorant.

Apparently, you have no concept of how a great yogic master like Sukadeva is directly giving Parikshit Maharaja transcendental instructions that are taking him into a transcendental realization of the universal form of the Lord.

Sukadeva was dislodging Parikshit Maharaja from his material entanglement.

His descriptions of the universe were a device for accomplishing that purpose.

It's doesn't have to conform to scientific knowledge.

It's about a maha-yogi directly taking on a disciple and leading him from the mundane to the transcendental.

The instructions carried a special power.

They were not scientific - they were spiritual.

They served a much higher purpose than some simple mundane conception of the universe.

Since you have no faith in those instructions and challenge them on the basis of demonic mundane science, you can never attain the same benefit that Maharaja Parikshit acheived of going back to Godhead.

You have denied yourself the spiritual power and the spiritual current and the spiritual realization that comes from accepting the instructions of Sukadeva Goswami blindly with full faith and understanding that they have a much higher power than useless scientific understandings of the universe.

Murali_Mohan_das · May 9, 2007

I guess it's true what they say: it's easy enough to fake humility, but tolerance is not so easy to fake.

So, you have full faith in Sadaputa that what he says is the perfect understanding of what the Bhagavat says about cosmology.

I'll bet you $10 bucks that Sadaputa doesn't even know Sanskrit.

4 Regs. How's *your* Sanskrit, Prabhu?

Apparently, you have no concept of how a great yogic master like Sukadeva is directly giving Parikshit Maharaja transcendental instructions that are taking him into a transcendental realization of the universal form of the Lord.

Since you speak with such great authority, perhaps you can enlighten us where the other great Vaishnavas have not succeeded?

You have denied yourself the spiritual power and the spiritual current and the spiritual realization that comes from accepting the instructions of Sukadeva Goswami blindly with full faith and understanding that they have a much higher power than useless scientific understandings of the universe.

Well, I'm glad that *you* have not denied yourself that spiritual power, Prabhu, and are relishing those transcendental mellows as is abundantly obvious by your sweet mood of distribution.

As for "useless scientific understandings of the universe", I suspect that the server hosting this site is physically located in India (since it sometimes takes quite a while to respond). Regardless of where it is located, it is by the mercy of the Lord coming in the form of "useless scientific understandings of the universe" that you are reading these words.

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

4 Regs. How's *your* Sanskrit, Prabhu?

What? Nobody told you?

Jeeeeez..............

I am an avadhuta!

I am a liberated soul dude.

I don't need to follow any regulative principles.

The 4 regs are for sadhakas like you who are conditioned souls.

The 4 regs will end you up in Vaikuntha man!

I am a strict follower of raga-bhakti.

I don't allow regulative principles to keep me away from Vrindavan.

I came to this planet to do a little service to Srila Prabhupada.

It was my choice.

I didn't come here because of karma.

I have been following Srila Prabhupada around the Brahmandas for millions of years just to get a little dust from his lotus feet.

4 regs??????????????

don't make me laugh!!!!!!!

muralidhar_das · May 9, 2007

Come on Guruvani,

Be honest,

You aren't really here in the material world at all !

You are in Goloka Vrindaban, and you are sitting in an Internet Cafe in a cave at Govardhana.

You never left Goloka Vrindaban at all, you are there eternally!

Maybe you had a dream about material life but it never really changed you even for a moment.

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

Come on Guruvani,

Be honest,

You aren't really here in the material world at all !

You are in Goloka Vrindaban, and you are sitting in an Internet Cafe in a cave at Govardhana.

You never left Goloka Vrindaban at all, you are there eternally!

Maybe you had a dream about material life but it never really changed you even for a moment.

Well, what can I say?

I was initiated by the flute music of Lord Dwarakadisha directly.

You aren't going to meet many devotees that were initiated directly by the flute music of Krishna.

So, I am special.

It's burden ---- yes it is!

I do my best to deal with it.

I hate regulative devotional service.

It's a serious obstacle to raga-bhakti. :eek2:

Murali_Mohan_das · May 9, 2007

Ah, Merciful Prabhus. I will have a hard time wiping this smile off of my face.

I only mention the 4 regs here because the one about gambling is the only one with which I've had consistent success. I don't want to be a complete and utter failure--I'm satisfied with garden-variety failure.

But seriously, Guruvani-ji, how's your Sanskrit? I have a limerick or two I'd like translated.

Come on Guruvani,

Be honest,

You aren't really here in the material world at all !

You are in Goloka Vrindaban, and you are sitting in an Internet Cafe in a cave at Govardhana.

You never left Goloka Vrindaban at all, you are there eternally!

Maybe you had a dream about material life but it never really changed you even for a moment.

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

But seriously, Guruvani-ji, how's your Sanskrit? I have a limerick or two I'd like translated.

Well, years ago I taught myself how to read the script, but that was as far as I got.

If I felt a need to know Sanskrit I would have done it.

I have always tasted so much nectar in the books of Srila Prabhupada that I didn't see any need to learn Sanskrit.

If it ain't broke...............don't fix it. :crying2:

If you need a Sanskrit nerd then maybe you should get in touch with Jagadananda das, the tantric sahajiya who was re-initiated by Lalita Prasad.

He is THE MAN, when it comes to Canadian Sanskrit nerds.

muralidhar_das · May 10, 2007

Hmmm.... let me get this straight

Guruvani was initiated by the flute, so that makes him a servant of the flute

Murali-mohana das is the servant of the charming Lord who holds a flute

And I am known as Muralidhar das

So then my brothers, what do you think about this:::::

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 1.162

sad-vaḿśatas tava janiḥ puruṣottamasya

pāṇau sthitir muralike saralāsi jātyā

kasmāt tvayā sakhi guror viṣamā gṛhītā

gopāńganā-gaṇa-vimohana-mantra-dīkṣā

"'My dear friend the flute, it appears that you have been born of a very good family, for your residence is in the hands of Śrī Kṛṣṇa. By birth you are simple and are not at all crooked. Why then have you taken initiation into this dangerous mantra that enchants the assembled gopīs?'

theist · May 10, 2007

So, you have full faith in Sadaputa that what he says is the perfect understanding of what the Bhagavat says about cosmology.

You are way too much work to discuss anything with Guruvani. I never said I had FAITH in Sadaputa. I don't even know him. I may or may not agree with him but the fact is I can't even comprehend most of what he says about cosmology. I am an uneducated man. But even a person likes me knows enough to not to call any devotee a buffon just because I may disagree with them.

Anyway it is better you and I not have any direct exchanges.

theist · May 10, 2007

O son of Bharata, as the sun alone illuminates all this universe, so does the living entity, one within the body, illuminate the entire body by consciousness. -Gita

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

O son of Bharata, as the sun alone illuminates all this universe, so does the living entity, one within the body, illuminate the entire body by consciousness. -Gita

So, tell me................

Do you know of a second planet that illuminates the universe.

I can't see one in the sky myself.

May 10, 2007

If the scientists don't know how far away the Moon is, in material terms, then how do you explain this:

EME (communications)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Earth-Moon-Earth is a radio communication which relies on the propagation of radio waves from an earth based transmitter directed via reflection from the surface of the moon back to an earth based receiver.

History

The use of the moon as a passive communications satellite were proposed by Mr W. Bray of the British General Post Office in 1940. It was calculated that with the available microwave transmission powers and low noise receivers, it would be possible to beam microwave signals up from earth and reflect off the moon. It was thought that at least one voice channel would be possible. [1]

The "moon bounce" technique was developed by the United States Military in the years after World War II, with the first successful reception of echoes off the moon being carried out at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey on January 10, 1946 by John H. DeWitt as part of Project Diana. This was followed by more practical uses, including a teletype link between the naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii and United States Navy headquarters in Washington, DC. In the days before communications satellites, a link free of the vagaries of ionospheric propagation was revolutionary.

EME was also in use aboard the NSA listening ship Liberty when it was attacked by the Israel Defense Forces during the Six Day War.

Later, the technique was used by non-military commercial users, and the first amateur detection of signals from the moon took place in 1953.

FAQ

As the albedo of the moon is very low (around 12%), and the path loss over the 770,000 kilometre return distance is extreme (around 309 db).

· High power (100w+) and high gain antennas (35db+) must be used.

· In practice, this limits the use of this technique to the spectrum at VHF and above.

Current EME communicatons

Recent advances in digital signal processing have allowed EME contacts, admittedly with low data rate, to take place with powers in the order of 100 Watts and a single Yagi antenna.

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

If the scientists don't know how far away the Moon is, in material terms, then how do you explain this:
EME (communications)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Earth-Moon-Earth is a radio communication which relies on the propagation of radio waves from an earth based transmitter directed via reflection from the surface of the moon back to an earth based receiver.

History

The use of the moon as a passive communications satellite were proposed by Mr W. Bray of the British General Post Office in 1940. It was calculated that with the available microwave transmission powers and low noise receivers, it would be possible to beam microwave signals up from earth and reflect off the moon. It was thought that at least one voice channel would be possible. [1]

The "moon bounce" technique was developed by the United States Military in the years after World War II, with the first successful reception of echoes off the moon being carried out at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey on January 10, 1946 by John H. DeWitt as part of Project Diana. This was followed by more practical uses, including a teletype link between the naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii and United States Navy headquarters in Washington, DC. In the days before communications satellites, a link free of the vagaries of ionospheric propagation was revolutionary.

EME was also in use aboard the NSA listening ship Liberty when it was attacked by the Israel Defense Forces during the Six Day War.

Later, the technique was used by non-military commercial users, and the first amateur detection of signals from the moon took place in 1953.

FAQ

As the albedo of the moon is very low (around 12%), and the path loss over the 770,000 kilometre return distance is extreme (around 309 db).

· High power (100w+) and high gain antennas (35db+) must be used.

· In practice, this limits the use of this technique to the spectrum at VHF and above.

Current EME communicatons

Recent advances in digital signal processing have allowed EME contacts, admittedly with low data rate, to take place with powers in the order of 100 Watts and a single Yagi antenna.

dude, that is all mundane science.

The Bhagavatam deals with the underlying spiritual reality of the universe.

Just like we all have a spiritual form on "the other side".

The universe is the same thing.

There is a spiritual counterpart of this material universe in the spiritual sky.

Sukadeva Goswami is talking about the spiritual form of this universe that exists in the spiritual sky man.!!!!!!!!!!! :eek3:

What?

You think Sukadeva was talking about the illusion you are in?

Not a chance.....!!!!!!!!!

theist · May 10, 2007

So, tell me................
Do you know of a second planet that illuminates the universe.

I can't see one in the sky myself.

There are many other suns "dude". That's the point.

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

There are many other suns "dude". That's the point.

Those aren't Suns man!!!!!!!!!!

Those are planets of fire gods.

The Vedic books describe the planets of fire gods, but the Sun god is an incarnation of Vishnu.

That makes the Sun supreme over these lesser luminaries of the fire gods.

There is only one luminary of Surya Narayan - one Sun.

These planets of fire gods aren't considered Suns in the Vedic view.

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

There are many other suns "dude". That's the point.

That's just a theory anyway.

Nobody has any proof that there are other Suns.

These "Suns" they claim to know of are just like 2 pixels wide on their telescopes.

It's impossible to know anything about an image that is only 2 pixels on a telescope image.

They "theorize" that there are other Suns.

They have no proof.

They think, they guess, they speculate that there are other Suns but they have no proof of their theory.

Believing in scientific speculations will not help you attain to the transcedental world. It is just a lot of nonsense.

You have been challenging the Vedic texts for years on the basis of scientific speculations.

I don't see how Krishna is going to be very pleased with you for being so critical of the books his authorized representatives have left to guide us towards the spiritual world.

So, what benefit do you get for believing in science and fault-finding the Vedic texts?

None.

Neither spiritually or materially are you benefitted for believing in money grubbing "scientists" who create theories to keep them big salaries coming in.

I think you are deceiving yourself and trying to deceive others with your scientific challenge to the Vedic scriptures.

Vaishnavas don't challenge the Vedic scriptures with scientific speculations.

It's just not right for any devotee to challenge the Vedic texts and try to make them out to be full of bad information.

The bad information is coming from scientists who speculate and theorize for a living.

If you want to put your faith in them, then that is your ignorance.

They don't get my faith.

I'll put my faith in the self-realized souls.

I think that is a lot more wise for one who wants to know the spiritual truth.

Gaurasundara · May 10, 2007

dude, that is all mundane science.
The Bhagavatam deals with the underlying spiritual reality of the universe.

Just like we all have a spiritual form on "the other side".

The universe is the same thing.

There is a spiritual counterpart of this material universe in the spiritual sky.

Sukadeva Goswami is talking about the spiritual form of this universe that exists in the spiritual sky man.!!!!!!!!!!!

What?

You think Sukadeva was talking about the illusion you are in?

Not a chance.....!!!!!!!!!

You need to understand that Sukadeva was explaining the universe/creation to Pariksit in a manner so that he could understand it as the "body of God". He did this because Pariksit asked him to. Then follows all those planetary descriptions, etc. One ought to realise that they conflict with modern science findings because they are not "modern science" in the first place. What is being described is the divinisation of the creation and how we can perceive God in it.

Gaurasundara · May 10, 2007

Spiritual counterpart of this universe in the spiritual sky? What?

8,000,400 different species in the universe?

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