James Randi...yes the ignorant one

[mohankrishna]

Namaskaram

 

As many probably know this guy Randi is offereing $1,000,000 to anyone who has legit "psychic" ability. I'm sure some of out Vaishnava sadhakas posses certain siddhis. I understand that these are not the goal...but would it be wrong to go there, claim that money and use in Krishna's service?

 

Mohnkrsna

[Guest guest]

I think it would be good for science also!

 

Cards would be put on the table...!

 

If something can be demonstrated there then i guess it couldnt be ignored BUT... i can say for myself (in 24 years) havent seen anything like that- super powers...

of course- i know our life is a miracle in itself.

 

but really- looking for some mystic powers,.. seem there is only "chvek, chvek" and some people earning for this!

 

would like to know what is the truth in this!

 

you know- FOAF (friend of a friend) said, ...it is written,.. hm, this is so..guess not enough.

 

I believe there is a lot of work to be done in "consciousness"- so challenges like this are nice to see.

well, its a challenge and i dont claim to have any "super" poweres. who does?

 

shanti

[Guest guest]

 

of course- i know our life is a miracle in itself.

 

maybe i would better say that- there are so called "eternal" questions,..and i really dont know who can answer them!

like:is there anything with our conscioussnes after life; and others- where did we come from; what is nature of univerese and many others...

 

maybe its just a mistery and no one can tell the answer?

why would you know that vedic tradition is right??

how?

 

 

Science is also looking for knowledege about these questions!

 

i quess if we arent the prisoners of some more inteligent beings that manipulate with us in some kind of society sytem for some reasons that i dont know...

then its all the evolution etc. looking very unpredictable- no one knows the answers! where did we come from, why are we here, who we are? etc.

 

Science is i see on other forums are also nice people, but they try to understand whats behind things, how they work..

and if someone claim to have super powers, but these powers can not be demonstrated in scientific environment, then how can science accept them??

i would love to see some change in our consciouseness...

 

but in what way? what are we suposed to do?

i dont see the big picture- so maybe its just good as it as..

and yes- this is needed i think- the big picture..

 

sorry for my ling post, just have to write it

regards

[Guest guest]

not ling, big

 

however- all the best to all!

[mohankrishna]

Hello,

I understand your questions. I'd like to recommend a book - Human Devolution by Michael Cremo. It's about £30, I believe. It's a definite read for the inquisitive!

 

Mohnkrsna

[Guest guest]

Tnx,

 

I know some his works (listen to some of his radio interviews, interesting),

 

Just was watching one Tv show this week, he joked he is an incarnation of Darwin, come back to "repair" some things:D

but i missed a lot of the show..

So i dindnt relly see what is he interested recently...

 

btw:

 

 

I'm sure some of out Vaishnava sadhakas posses certain siddhis.

dont really know what siddhis are, but... could it be in Randi challenge?

 

Regards

[mohankrishna]

Yes haha ppl jokingly say he's darwin reincarnated to fix things hahaha...don't worry if you missed it on tele. watch it here:-

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2895087993533041198&q=michael+cremo

 

Initially you'll see it's in french..but that's just the intro. the rest's in english.

 

Siddhi means perfection. It usually refers to extrordinary control of matter in subtler means. For example being able to teleport objects, or hear distant sounds. One of the other members recently posted a link - a man with apparent siddhis. Looks very legit to me.

Here's the link.

 

Mohnkrsna

[shvu]

 

Namaskaram

 

As many probably know this guy Randi is offereing $1,000,000 to anyone who has legit "psychic" ability. I'm sure some of out Vaishnava sadhakas posses certain siddhis. I understand that these are not the goal...but would it be wrong to go there, claim that money and use in Krishna's service?

 

Mohnkrsna

 

Are you so sure that he is the ignorant one?

 

Have you actually seen a Sadhak display a siddhi in a convincing manner? A display of something that defies nature's laws (as we known them) and was not a trick? I can tell you this...you can search high and low; you will not find a single example. A display of divine magic is always something that is seen by someone else, somewhere else, but never seen by you firsthand.

 

Sure, you can get to see some cheap tricks available from some self professed godmen such as pulling a ladoo out of thin air, or a ring or a pinch of sacred ash. These are third grade tricks that can be successfully performed by an amateur magician. As for slightly complex levels of magic such as converting water into Chardonnay, they always happen somewhere else and can never be witnessed by you. Really appreciable miracles such as eradicating disease from the world or poverty or saving the starving kids in Africa are out of the question. Most miracles do not go beyond the ladoo/ring/ash level.

 

Shankara from 1300 years ago writes that miracles do not happen in his time and this is from someone who was living in a time and place where every Tom Dick and Harry was making up stories of divine miracles. If he was not living in primitive oil lamp, clay pot times and had access to the internet, he would have not objected to throwing a similar challenge as Randi. James Randi knows exactly what he is talking about and there will be no takers for those million dollars. This is real life and in real life sarees do not come out of thin air nor do blind people get cured through miracle touches. These stories - sorry to break the bubble - are strictly for the gullible.

 

If you have not realized it, siddhis and miracles play no role in Bhakti and spiritual progress. They are totally irrelevant and I bet there are some religious people right on this forum who will agree with this (althought not outwardly, perhaps).

 

Cheers

[Guruvani]

There are some well documented Psychic surgeons in the Phils.

I have seen documentary on this.

There are many witnesses and patients who have testified about this.

 

I have seen very authentic video made a documentary expedition and even a technician on the crew had a tumor removed from her ovaries and was healed immediatly and was later able to concieve a child that she could not have before.

 

check out this one story.

there are many stories like this one.

 

 

Philippine Psychic Surgery

 

 

 

 

By Dan McKee, 1996

 

 

 

Phillippine Psychic Surgery. It’s 1980; I’ve made my way alone, following my inner guidance to Baguio City, Philippines. I’m staring in awe, watching Marcelino, a Psychic Surgeon operate on Filipinos and foreigners. My mind is confused. Some people are laughing, others are in a deep silence. The smell of coconut oil permeates the healing room.

Now it’s my turn. I lie down on the short, hard, wooden table. My head is on the large well used Bible. I’ve been in terrible pain with severe migraine headaches and severe nonstop nosebleeds for two weeks. I’m weak and exhausted. Here comes the hands, fingers dancing over my lungs and chest. What? Blood appears and a nasty looking black lump of bloody tissue comes out of my body. A warm red liquid runs down my chest as the assistant wipes it up with a cottonball. My mind is blown. Reality check.

Then I notice my body, the nose bleeding has stopped and the migraine headaches are gone. I slowly get up, dazed, hardly able to stand up and walk, a blissful, balanced sense of inner peace engulfing me. Marcelino smiles. I look at him not comprehending anything. He says, “Blood Clot blocking big vein.” I sat down saying to myself, something pretty incredible just happened and I wanted to know more. That was the beginning of a deep and beautiful spiritual transformation for me as it is for most people who experience psychic surgery.

By the way, I’ve never had a nosebleed or migraine headache since. Since then I’ve kept returning, first to observe, then study, then lead tours myself. I’ve spent many years living there. I love the Philippines. I’ve come to realize that a spiritual awakening is at the core of this very visual and graphic technique and that the cure is secondary to the individuals self transformation. The big question is how can they do that?

Philippine healers are essentially mediums. Some trained in the Espiritista Church and some received the gift through an accident or death experience. Most of the healing still occurs in the auras, subtle bodies and the energy is pulled out of the physical body as if by a super magnet. It’s the other beings “Spirits” who do the actual operations through the healers hands.

Psychic surgery can be explained by three spiritual methods, materialization, dematerialization and the actual opening of the body. Most operations are actually materialized “diseased” energy taking form and not the real bodies tissues. This has confused scientists for years, especially when their cherished tissue sample disappears mysteriously from the well guarded vial. It’s not cheating, it’s not fakery, it’s playing with energy and form.

The second most common method is dematerialization, where actual tumors or cancerous tissues are dematerialized from within the body and then rematerialized in the healers hands. Pretty good trick, huh?

The least common but extremely useful method is the actual opening of the body, by reversing the electric polarity of the cells temporarily. The first layer of the aura is a cell by cell energy blueprint of the physical body and what you see them working on sometimes looks exactly like the heart or lungs but in actuality is the materialized form of that organ as it is being repaired within the body.

Some healers will do a spiritual operation only, without the blood, especially if the patient is weak. All healers tell their patients; do not partake of meat, fatty foods, soft drinks, sex, heavy exercise, angry moods, etc for 1-4 weeks. They tell everyone to pray or as we understand this as meaning, keep up your vibration and accept your healing.

Any type of spiritual healing works for about three weeks as the change in the higher bodies makes its way into the physical body. I’ve had my right eye taken out, washed, then put back in. That really shakes up the audience. I once had amoebic dysentery and food poisoning at the same time, which was later diagnosed by the healer. I was in tremendous pain for five hours as I lost it all, if you know what I mean. I somehow got into a motorcycle taxi, kept passing out and finally made it to a healer.

Ester diagnosed me immediately. Four people picked me up and laid me on the table. After a three minute operation I was instantaneously healed and went home feeling great, able to eat anything. I’ve seen all the miracles you have heard about, quadriplegics walk, the blind see, the lame walk, the deaf hear. In fact many people come to the Philippines for a “tune up” just to stay healthy. Healers materialize many unusual things, metal, plastic, wood, plants, live worms, all coming out of the body. Somebody’s got a sense of humor here.

I love my psychic dentist, Brother Henry. He takes out teeth with his bare hands, every day, even wisdom teeth. His large display jar is full of pulled teeth, soaked in alcohol and gets refilled every few months. No one has gotten an infection, had any adverse side effects or died while undergoing psychic surgery. Everyone is benefited to some degree. After awhile you get used to the strangeness of it all and the blood doesn’t bother you anymore.

Most healers are very good at diagnosing. They can see internally into the cellular level and sometimes can even use bond paper to show an X-ray of the body.

So after reading all this wonderful and exciting stuff you’re asking yourself, should I go there? The answer to that question lies only in your heart. Here is the good news. All HEALING IS SELF HEALING. Well I already know that. Good, follow your inner voice for there are no mistakes if destiny calls you to experience psychic surgery.

It’s not only the method that heals, it’s a subtle dance between, the healer, the patient and destiny. It’s really accepting our deepest spiritual nature and living it. We heal ourselves everyday. We have a lot of practice. As a healer myself, I’ve been drawn to study the many energetic forms of healing such as oriental medicine, homeopathy, tai chi, spiritual healing, polarity therapy, breathing, hypnosis, radionics, color, sound, etc. The real study of any of these methods is not only about healing others but how can I use these truths to understand how my body-mind operates.

Energy medicine is surely the medicine of the future. Learn more about the auric field, your personal universe. Play with some techniques. Be aware of how they affect the greater you. Get a sense of the multitude of energies coursing through you as you function not only in the physical body but also in the multidimensional realms that we also live in. Check out some techniques and teachers of spiritual healing. It just might give you the opportunity to open your heart even more and be a clearer channel. Let me share with you an ancient esoteric closely guarded secret that I learned somewhere in the Far East. IT IS SO MUCH FUN TO TOUCH IN LOVE.

[Guruvani]

I have seen this documentary and the close up footage of the psychic surgeon is not fakery like the demon Western Medical Establishment would like to make it out to be.

 

this stuff is real, but I am, sure there are some fakers out there.

 

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This Videotape, made in 1985 is an inside look at the Life and Work of the Filipino Psychic Surgeon Rev. Alex L. Orbito. This documentary was made with the full cooperation of Rev. Orbito to present his work within the context of his indigenous culture. The contents of this documentary are graphic and are not recommended for children.

 

The controversy surrounding the subject of psychic surgery has obscured the real nature of the phenomena. In this documentary, the phenomena is shown for the first time from the perspective of the Filipinos. This documentary is remarkable for many reasons, among these are:

 

• It shows the international scope of the phenomena
  
• Orbito describes the phenomena in his own words
  
• It contains the first footage ever made of the Sacred Cave of the Espiritistas and the chamber called the Healing Waters that lies deep within the Earth
  
• Contains a detailed description of the Meditation technique of the psychic surgeons
  
• Is an introduction to Filipino Christian Spiritism beliefs and practices
  
• Raises questions about the expanded role of the Holy Spirit and much more

 

[Guruvani]

I know, I know................. there are many who have claimed to "debunk" the psychic surgeons and I am sure there are fakes and I am sure that magicians can perform trick surgery that looks like the real thing, but I that doesn't change my mind because I have seen objective documentary footage by professional people that clearly shows that some of these psychic surgeons are for real.

[suchandra]

 

Namaskaram

 

As many probably know this guy Randi is offereing $1,000,000 to anyone who has legit "psychic" ability. I'm sure some of out Vaishnava sadhakas posses certain siddhis. I understand that these are not the goal...but would it be wrong to go there, claim that money and use in Krishna's service?

 

Mohnkrsna

 

This James Randi Educational Foundation might also have another purport of simply trying to globally compass paranormal, supernatural, or occult power. Before they start it says you have to sign a contract about their conditions during the procedure. And here lies the crux, what is stated in that contract? It could be rather that James Randi doesnt even has the 1 mio to pay out. At least when I saw him speak he seems to be 100% sure that he will never has to pay 1 mio. How he can be so sure without some small print in his statutes? Let's say 20 people can prove paranormal powers, will he pay 20 mio?

[mohankrishna]

 

Are you so sure that he is the ignorant one?

 

Have you actually seen a Sadhak display a siddhi in a convincing manner? A display of something that defies nature's laws (as we known them) and was not a trick? I can tell you this...you can search high and low; you will not find a single example. A display of divine magic is always something that is seen by someone else, somewhere else, but never seen by you firsthand.

 

Sure, you can get to see some cheap tricks available from some self professed godmen such as pulling a ladoo out of thin air, or a ring or a pinch of sacred ash. These are third grade tricks that can be successfully performed by an amateur magician. As for slightly complex levels of magic such as converting water into Chardonnay, they always happen somewhere else and can never be witnessed by you. Really appreciable miracles such as eradicating disease from the world or poverty or saving the starving kids in Africa are out of the question. Most miracles do not go beyond the ladoo/ring/ash level.

 

Shankara from 1300 years ago writes that miracles do not happen in his time and this is from someone who was living in a time and place where every Tom Dick and Harry was making up stories of divine miracles. If he was not living in primitive oil lamp, clay pot times and had access to the internet, he would have not objected to throwing a similar challenge as Randi. James Randi knows exactly what he is talking about and there will be no takers for those million dollars. This is real life and in real life sarees do not come out of thin air nor do blind people get cured through miracle touches. These stories - sorry to break the bubble - are strictly for the gullible.

 

If you have not realized it, siddhis and miracles play no role in Bhakti and spiritual progress. They are totally irrelevant and I bet there are some religious people right on this forum who will agree with this (althought not outwardly, perhaps).

 

Cheers

 

Your ignorance is truly remarkable. The problem with people like you is that you sit in your chair feet up and think you've searched the world - it is ppl like you who are dull witted; just a sheep in the herd being led into a ditch. I say led becuase you do not think for your own and are easily influenced by the media. Let me first tell you that I, being a student of science, have done my research into papers authored by well accomplished scientists (many of whom occupied seats of prestige many nobel laureates) on paranormal phenomenon.

Now, I will put my trust to the great men of science who have given "my daily equations" which ensure the jet I design won't drop out of the sky THAN you.

[Guruvani]

this idiot who makes his living "debunking" fraud mystics is not better than a fraud mystic himself.

He is a parasite on society and make his money on the flip side of the fraud coin.

He is a jealous punk and somebody should put that germ out of his misery, while he is still young enough to lament death.

[Guest guest]

 

Your ignorance is truly remarkable. The problem with people like you is that you sit in your chair feet up and think you've searched the world - it is ppl like you who are dull witted; just a sheep in the herd being led into a ditch. I say led becuase you do not think for your own and are easily influenced by the media. Let me first tell you that I, being a student of science, have done my research into papers authored by well accomplished scientists (many of whom occupied seats of prestige many nobel laureates) on paranormal phenomenon.

Now, I will put my trust to the great men of science who have given "my daily equations" which ensure the jet I design won't drop out of the sky THAN you.

 

I wonder why you did not consider these scientists and instead asked others if they knew someone who could take up this challenge.

 

Anyway, this is good news. Please tell me how I can reach these scientists. I will strike a deal with them (10% commission) out of the money they get by proving Randi false.

 

Since people like myself and Randi are cock-sure that paranormal phenomenon are bogus, an encounter with these scientists should change our minds and you will gain a place in heaven for your good deed.

 

So hopefully now, your people should debunk Randi in a weeks time. Waiting with anticipation...

 

Cheers

[mohankrishna]

 

I wonder why you did not consider these scientists and instead asked others if they knew someone who could take up this challenge.

 

Anyway, this is good news. Please tell me how I can reach these scientists. I will strike a deal with them (10% commission) out of the money they get by proving Randi false.

 

Since people like myself and Randi are cock-sure that paranormal phenomenon are bogus, an encounter with these scientists should change our minds and you will gain a place in heaven for your good deed.

 

So hopefully now, your people should debunk Randi in a weeks time. Waiting with anticipation...

 

Cheers

No, I think I've found my god - you! Oh you are so great you claim not to be god and humbler still that you say he does not exist. These are but the games of my god shiv - you may be in guise but i can still spot thee for yee give away the hint that you know everything - enough to say that such phenomenon does not exist. With this phrase of yours alone I can tell that yee are aware of all the goings on on this earth to be "cock-sure". I bow down to you - knower of all, seer of all.

[Guest guest]

 

Are you so sure that he is the ignorant one?

 

Have you actually seen a Sadhak display a siddhi in a convincing manner? A display of something that defies nature's laws (as we known them) and was not a trick? I can tell you this...you can search high and low; you will not find a single example. A display of divine magic is always something that is seen by someone else, somewhere else, but never seen by you firsthand.

 

Sure, you can get to see some cheap tricks available from some self professed godmen such as pulling a ladoo out of thin air, or a ring or a pinch of sacred ash. These are third grade tricks that can be successfully performed by an amateur magician. As for slightly complex levels of magic such as converting water into Chardonnay, they always happen somewhere else and can never be witnessed by you. Really appreciable miracles such as eradicating disease from the world or poverty or saving the starving kids in Africa are out of the question. Most miracles do not go beyond the ladoo/ring/ash level.

 

Shankara from 1300 years ago writes that miracles do not happen in his time and this is from someone who was living in a time and place where every Tom Dick and Harry was making up stories of divine miracles. If he was not living in primitive oil lamp, clay pot times and had access to the internet, he would have not objected to throwing a similar challenge as Randi. James Randi knows exactly what he is talking about and there will be no takers for those million dollars. This is real life and in real life sarees do not come out of thin air nor do blind people get cured through miracle touches. These stories - sorry to break the bubble - are strictly for the gullible.

 

If you have not realized it, siddhis and miracles play no role in Bhakti and spiritual progress. They are totally irrelevant and I bet there are some religious people right on this forum who will agree with this (althought not outwardly, perhaps).

 

Cheers

 

 

 

 

I wrote on several occasions about my experiences during Kundalini process but it seems that nobody cared to read or nobody believed but for the sake of those seeking some real life examples I 'll give it one more try.

Shvu is wrong but unfortunately he is wrong in perhaps 1 case out of thousand or even more.

During Kundalini process I experienced bilocation, teleportation of a small item and out of body experience but not an "ordinary" one. I wrote already about bilocation and teleportation but didn't mention third case.

I called my former guru (one quite controversial tantric baba who was at that monet some 1000 miles away) and asked him to perform a miracle to prove his powers.

I didn't verbalize my demand outwardly, nor did I told anybody what was going through my mind at that moment.

 

As I finished my prayer person standing beside me fell to to ground and when he stood up his face was beaming. He was confused but at the same time amazed by what just happened. He was pulled out of body some 100 feets above frome where he could clearly see our bodies bellow as well as the islands and hills that were not visible from where his body was standing. It was the first and the last time something like this happened to him. He was unable to speak properly for hours shocked by this amazing experience.

Bilocation and teleportation occured spontaneously. I don't claim that I understand the mechanism behind it and I wouldn't know how to repeat the result but it was enough to convince me and few of my coleagues.

Perhaps if I continued to perform kriyas and meditations I would have eventualy discovered the process but I stopped beacuse Kundalini was starting to seriously damage my health.

 

What happens during this process is mostly out of control and always depleting vital energy. I use to recover for months after Kundalini arousal, suffering from severe insomnia, loss of apetite, uncontrolable tremors and many other extremely uncomfortable symptoms.

But to get to this point (which is actually starting point in occult) I had to live celibacy for six years regularly practice pranayamas and meditations for many hours every day. Once during six months period I observed mauna ( wov of silence) and use to practice mantra and meditation for almost 20 hours a day.

 

Now, when process started I was terrified and stopped with kriyas, pranayamas and meditation altogether and never returned to raja yoga sadhana since then.

I f I persevered perhaps I would by now learn how to control this energy but let me tell you there 's no fun in it.

I wasn't thinking to myself :"Is that amazing or what, these things that I can do" or stuff like that.

I prayed to Krishna to stop it so that I could return to "normal" life. I wasn't interested in money or fame.

Actually, I would be happy at the time if I could only sleep and eat or even breathe like healthy person.

However, in real life sometimes sarees sometimes do come out of thin air and not just sarees but even people.

 

The question you should ask is "why does things like that does not happen to me?"

I don't think I would experience any of those extraordinary things if I did not force myself to observe yogic sadhana for six years. Six years no sex, no meat or intoxicants, no TV, no meaningless talk, no sleeping more than 5 hours, fasting one to three day every week...

In traditional Raja yoga sampradayas you would have to follow sadhana similar to the one I just described for 12 years before witnessing first results. You were expected to work hard for 12 years before reaping the first fruit of sadhana and sceptics who accept some spiritual path expect miracles after performing rutine meditations for half and hour a day after one or two years of sadhana. I wonder how many of them observe eight fundamental rules of yogic life?

 

Now if you are sceptic and you cherish scientific approach why not performing an experiment yourself?

Follow the process and see if anything happens. Isn't it worth trying ?

I sacrificed my studies, girlfriends, all the "fun" , lived on one vegetarian meal for many years. Even now I feel the consequences on my worldly life but I wanted to find out if there is any truth in all those stories I read about mystic yogis of past. I did find out eventualy and payed the price but at least I dared to do something and find out the truth for myself.

 

Everybody can do it and this is the reason why I have no sympathy for the sceptics in spiritual life.

I f you are sceptic at the begining that's great , but some so called "sadhakas" remain sceptics ( actually they "grow" from sceptic to cynic) throughout their whole lives which unmistakenly speaks about their flawed sadhana and lcak of determination. At least they should stop lecturing others about "scientific" approach and hard evidence. Hardest you can get is experience it yourself by following the process to the letter. Isn't that the harder piece of evidence then reading some text in scientific journal written by certain Dr Stein who happened to be at the laboratory when "miracle" occured.

Is that better then experience the working of spiritual force within your very bones?

 

Sometimes miracle will happen and people should at least believe in possbility of miraculous healings and interventions. Nobody has right to claim it is impossbile .Even if you think it is highly unlikey you shoud never try to destroy the faith of other people.

You may warn them about some bogus guru or healer but speaking in general about impossibility of any supernatural intrevention is sheer stupidity.

Siddhis may be irrelevant to bhakta but there are phenomenons of higher order whose source is above vital world of prana.

Personaly, I believe that to truly dismiss something you have to be above it, until then your approach should be more humble.

After 20 years living with active Kundalini I'm still far from the authority on subject but some thing I know from my very own experience.

The worst thing however is to know that I could have $ 1,000,000 if only James Randi was there instead of another sceptic who witnessed my doppelganger manifestation.

Where are those scientist with their fancy machines when you need them?

[mohankrishna]

 

this idiot who makes his living "debunking" fraud mystics is not better than a fraud mystic himself.

He is a parasite on society and make his money on the flip side of the fraud coin.

He is a jealous punk and somebody should put that germ out of his misery, while he is still young enough to lament death.

 

HAHahahaha! That's very true Guruvani! funny thing is his fame rests on fraudsters...last thing he wants to find is the real thing. Atleast that's his subconscious motive.

 

Mohnkrsna

[Guest guest]

Sanatan,

 

I have already said this; but I will say it again.

 

You cannot show/prove your paranormal experience to others. If you could lift yourself from the ground and levitate; or create something out of nothing in a controlled environment, then you would be able to take on and instantly cure Randi, myself and every other sceptic in the world.

 

It is not going to happen. There will be no takers as it is simply impossible to break the simple laws of nature as we know them. It is not possible to levitate, even if it be a fraction of an inch and it is certainly not possible to create something out of nothing.

 

Why will someone get such powers? There is not a single valid reason you can provide for that. We will take a local example. Theist has been into the Krishna belief for decades now; is a vegan; stays as far way as he can from Mayavadins and has crossed 10000+ posts. Surely by now, he must have amassed enough siddhi to atleast produce an M&M out of thin air?

 

Btw, theist, I am not mocking at you. I am just using your example to drive home a point. Or let us take Prabhupada who has many disciples around the world who feel very grateful to him. All that greatness did not gain him any siddhis; he never claimed to have had mystical powers as far as I know. He still had to eat, sleep and do all the things that a normal person does. If Prabhupada did not have Siddhis, why would someone in the Himalayas have them? How is that Himalayan dude better positioned than Prabhupada to gain Siddhis?

 

Even Warren Buffet can use a million dollars. If there was someone out there who could do it, we would have known by now.

 

Cheers

[mohankrishna]

 

Or let us take Prabhupada who has many disciples around the world who feel very grateful to him. All that greatness did not gain him any siddhis;

Fool! How dare you mock our SadAcharyan!Don't worry you yourself will have an NDE you can talk about!

[Guest guest]

 

Sanatan,

 

I have already said this; but I will say it again.

 

You cannot show/prove your paranormal experience to others. If you could lift yourself from the ground and levitate; or create something out of nothing in a controlled environment, then you would be able to take on and instantly cure Randi, myself and every other sceptic in the world.

 

It is not going to happen. There will be no takers as it is simply impossible to break the simple laws of nature as we know them. It is not possible to levitate, even if it be a fraction of an inch and it is certainly not possible to create something out of nothing.

 

Why will someone get such powers? There is not a single valid reason you can provide for that. We will take a local example. Theist has been into the Krishna belief for decades now; is a vegan; stays as far way as he can from Mayavadins and has crossed 10000+ posts. Surely by now, he must have amassed enough siddhi to atleast produce an M&M out of thin air?

 

Btw, theist, I am not mocking at you. I am just using your example to drive home a point. Or let us take Prabhupada who has many disciples around the world who feel very grateful to him. All that greatness did not gain him any siddhis; he never claimed to have had mystical powers as far as I know. He still had to eat, sleep and do all the things that a normal person does. If Prabhupada did not have Siddhis, why would someone in the Himalayas have them? How is that Himalayan dude better positioned than Prabhupada to gain Siddhis?

 

Even Warren Buffet can use a million dollars. If there was someone out there who could do it, we would have known by now.

 

Cheers

 

 

 

Why would Srila Prabhupada want siddhis?

Gaudiya Math is not Kundalini /Raja yoga sampradaya, therefore there will be no sadhana working with subtle vital. There is no need.

 

It doesn't mean that some yogi on Himalaya is greater sadhaka then bhakta doing his rounds and striving to serve Krishna.

His greatest siddhi is his humble attitude anf faith in spiritual authorities.

Most bhakti traditions are not dealing with pranic vital world but something far more subtle and important for spiritual growth. That is the reason why most bhaktas do not acquire siddhis. They may be given some siddhi but what would they use it for I'm not sure. I'm not writing this for people interested in pure bhakti sadhana but for those in transitional phase or those who find themselves in need of some real life example of existence of subtle phenomena.

When we spek about siddhis there are many stages, not all siddhis come from the same world.

 

Regarding paranormal experiences didn't I just wrote that you actually can show paranormal experience to other person?

 

 

I mentioned bilocation that happened infront of the eyes of the witness while my body was far away from the site. It was vivid material experience that occured while I was experiencing intense Kundalini movement and my subtle body started to alternate between physical and vital world.

It was actually quite "scientific" in a sense, witnessed by a sceptic who had opportunity to to observe this dopleganger phenomenon for a prolonged period , even communicate with it.

You can read about exactly same experience in the B.S Goel's book "Kundalini and the Third eye."

He too went through intense Kundalini process while his relatives witnesssed his double meditating in his room at the time when he was at work.

So we have two persons who never heard of each other experiencing exactly the same phenomenon witnessed by close frineds and relatives while going through Kundalini awakening.

I read the mentioned book after my own experience and found striking similarities.

Aren't we now one small step closer to scientific?

It doesn't mean that science can deal with spiritual phenomenon of the higher order but I believe that we can to certain extent adopt scientific approach in cases of materialization from the subtle vital region.

 

Why was this person chosen to observe bilocation phenomenon, it could happen somewhere in the forest for my eyes only. Perhaps it was to cure his scepticism because he was good , moral but little bit too much grounded person. Some people started their spiritual path due to a similar so called paranormal experience. It may be just what they need to wake up. It is not as if you are God beacause some paranormal experience manifest around you. You may be just a hard worker who focused on vital pranic region from which there is just step or two to physical manifestation.There are immense higher worlds that are almost impossbile to manifest on this earthly dimension, only avatar would be able to materialize such reality.

 

We call every paranormal strange phenomenon spiritual but there are layers and layers between physical and spiritual.

Perhaps there is confusion when we talk about spiritual and paranormal, when some people automatically think that there is only gross matter and then there is God. There are many in-between very dynamic and unsteady vital zones. These regions are constantly trying to materialize something in this physical world and when you practice Kundalini yoga you may come in contact with them and become their channel or you may become channel for something from the higher world. It may come down translating from the causal to vital and from the vital to physical.

 

You don't need to deal with worlds of vital force, it depends on chosen path but if you want to experience these transitional worlds then you can adopt spiritual tradition dealing directly with vital region.

But the point is that what we call paranormal can be shown though it doesn't mean that you are the one who choses. You may be just an instrument who happened to be able to serve as a channel due to your specific focused effort in particular sadhana.

[mohankrishna]

Interesting Sanatan!

 

" Everybody can do it and this is the reason why I have no sympathy for the sceptics in spiritual life."

 

I agree with you fully there.

 

mohnkrsna

[Guest guest]

Shiv:

"Sanatan,

 

I have already said this; but I will say it again.

 

You cannot show/prove your paranormal experience to others. If you could lift yourself from the ground and levitate; or create something out of nothing in a controlled environment, then you would be able to take on and instantly cure Randi, myself and every other sceptic in the world. "

 

Well, he already said he couldn't prove it to a person at WILL, but he did claim someone else was there to witness it. As there are people who experience NDE's simply because their loved ones do, isn't that a "siddhi" in some effect? Both the experiencer and the witness corroborate the NDE when their loved ones survive the NDE, so wouldn't that give one pause to consider perhaps there's SOMETHING that isn't easily explainable out there? Some possibility for a miracle? Trust me, none of this has been explained conclusively yet, and simply OFFERING an explanation isn't tantamount to disproving anything. Offering explanations without proof that this is how it works doesn't constitute disproof, it just sheds some doubt on the nature of the phenomenon. Nobody can PROVE string theory either, for that matter yet many scientists believe that strings and hidden dimensions of the universe DO exist. Same with the holographic theory of the universe.

 

"It is not going to happen. There will be no takers as it is simply impossible to break the simple laws of nature as we know them. It is not possible to levitate, even if it be a fraction of an inch and it is certainly not possible to create something out of nothing."

 

Your ideas about the laws of nature are rather superficial it seems. What we experience in day-to-day reality is hardly representative of REALITY as it is. The laws of nature are hardly simple are really well known. We have grown adept at PREDICTING what is most likely to occur due to classical Newtonian physics, but that is just the tip of the iceberg and it's possible although not probable that an event will occur that seems to violate those laws yet holds true for deeper and more fundamental laws of physics.

 

"Why will someone get such powers? There is not a single valid reason you can provide for that. We will take a local example. Theist has been into the Krishna belief for decades now; is a vegan; stays as far way as he can from Mayavadins and has crossed 10000+ posts. Surely by now, he must have amassed enough siddhi to atleast produce an M&M out of thin air?"

 

Specious argument at best. Nobody knows why neutrinos exist, yet physicists have confirmed that they do. Your idea that this universe is entirely utilitarian, as in if there's a purpose for something only then it must exist otherwise it won't, is a fundamental assumption you make without real proof. And besides that, you have to consider perhaps you're not looking at things from the right perspective to understand why such powers may exist in the first place, which is understandable since we are all wondering about the mysteries of the universe. Point is, we have hardly come to grasp with the depth and breadth of the cosmos and many of its mysteries have yet to unveil themselves before us.

 

"Btw, theist, I am not mocking at you. I am just using your example to drive home a point. Or let us take Prabhupada who has many disciples around the world who feel very grateful to him. All that greatness did not gain him any siddhis; he never claimed to have had mystical powers as far as I know. He still had to eat, sleep and do all the things that a normal person does. If Prabhupada did not have Siddhis, why would someone in the Himalayas have them? How is that Himalayan dude better positioned than Prabhupada to gain Siddhis?

 

Even Warren Buffet can use a million dollars. If there was someone out there who could do it, we would have known by now.

 

Cheers"

 

If someone can do it and tries to prove it to a hard-nosed skeptic like James Randi there are a few things that can happen. One: Jame Randi tries to prove it is a fraud by simply offering a fraudulent way that the miracle could occur. To many that's equivalent to disproof but it is hardly that. One can achieve the same goal in a number of ways. One can cheat to achieve a goal or one can do it the honest way. Either way, the goal has been achieved, but we are obviously talking about methodology here, and thus the METHOD itself must be disproved rather than simply offering an explanation where cheating could be involved. Two: Perhaps the person just doesn't know or can't control these miraculous effects, due to stress, bad luck, will of God, or whatever. That's certainly possible, and while scientists would be loath to accept that as an excuse that doesn't eliminate it as a possible truth.

 

In any case, different people experience the different miracles of God in different ways. Just like one might not be able to see the color red simply because his eyes and brain do not process the color red, and so to him the color red may not exist, yet to others it clearly does. You can't say that just because most people have never experienced something it doesn't exist. Of course you CAN say that it LIKELY doesn't exist, but that's not definitive proof or disproof of anything, and that would be the only scientifically tenable argument you can make.

 

For the record, I am skeptical as well, but I truly believe the only scientific argument someone can make is that just because someone hasn't experienced something just means he's not LIKELY to experience it at a later point in his life, even if no one has.

[Guest guest]

 

You cannot show/prove your paranormal experience to others. If you could lift yourself from the ground and levitate; or create something out of nothing in a controlled environment, then you would be able to take on and instantly cure Randi, myself and every other sceptic in the world.

 

The first question would be scepticism of what? That paranormal exists? God exists? We exist? ...

 

It would be a really sad state if the "sceptics" are satisfied with someone showing some paranormal phenomenon. That would be just slipping to another form of ignorance.