We All Originated From Goloka

Guruvani · May 8, 2007

Vigraha,

You should be ashamed to keep posting that nonsense on the forum.

It is riddled with errors of all kinds.

You should let somebody who actually knows the philosophy deal with these issues, because you obviously don't have a good grasp of shastra.

The only support you can produce are some statements Srila Prabhupada made in letters or conversations and you take those and abuse them to support your mixed up ideas that can't be supported with actual shastra.

We have already shown statements in the books that defeat your silly theory.

Really, you don't have the knowledge or skills to write on this subject authoritatively.

You should be embarassed with how ridiclulous you look.

In the books of Srila Prabhupada you cannot support your claims.

In the books, the fall from Goloka theory cannot be supported.

It's obvious that Srila Prabhupada spoke conversationally to neophytes on the subject in a different way to avoid confusing them.

But, if you read his books, then you can't support your ridiculous theory.

The books don't promote the fall from Goloka theory and that is quite obvious.

You are really making an ass out of yourself.

If I were you I would just go hide in a corner somewhere and hope that everybody forgets about your ridiculous rantings on the fall from Goloka.

May 8, 2007

PRABHUADA HAS ON MANY OCCASIONS REFERRED TO OUR MATERIAL EXISTENCE AS A DREAM. Gurvani seems to be getting quite upset, his probably having a bad DREAM. One day he will reawaken his originally Krishna Consciousness and wake up back in is his rasa body and see that the mahat-tattva creation of the sleeping maha-Vishnu, is a place where all our mundane dreams go because they cannot stay in Vaikuntha.

Ha! Ha! Ha! It's good to see some humour in all this, Gurvani seems frustrated because he cannot understand the teachings of Srila Prabhpada. Also we are not mindless machine servants, on many ocassions Srila Prabhupada asked us to write our realizations down BASED on HIS teachings which Vigraha is doing.

There is one clear overwhelming point Guruvani and his 'tatastha origin buddies' don't seem to understand, and that is Srila Prabhupada has said our origins are from Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”.

Srila Prabhupada “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being fallen from our position in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha"

Srila Prabhupada explains cleary that in reality we are not fallen, our rasa body actually goes nowhere and is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because we are simply in a dreaming condition’.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”.

THESE COMMENTS SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS SAID AND NO AMOUNT OF WORD JUGGLERY WE WILL CHANGE THESE FACTS. A bonafide disciple of Sila Prabhupada understands this because such a devotee or grand disciple bases all the Vedas on Srila Prabhpadas books, interviews, classes, letters and morning walks tapes. He or She sees the entire Vedas and their true meanings through such mediums.

As devotees of Srila Prabhupada we are not interested in what other Gaudiya groups say or believe because His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the present bonafide representative of His Spiritual Master and I believe you and I and everyone else on this website would not know anything about Krishna if it was not for Srila Prabhupada.

Your servant Vaikunthapati das. Hare Krishna

Guruvani · May 8, 2007

You prove my point very well.

You can't prove it with the books, because the books don't support your silly idea.

The only proof you have is conversational statements that Srila Prabhupada made to neophytes who obviously were not reading the books.

I have shown proof from the books that contradict your fall-from-goloka theory and all you have is some conversational statements of Srila Prabhupada preaching to some neophytes who were not ready for anything except pablum philosophy.

Keep eating pablum if you like.

I prefer to go on to the curd subji and puri diet.

Sarva gattah · May 8, 2007

I found the following on the net very interesting. No one can dispute what Srila Prabhupada has said

If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism.One must study Srila Prabhupadas’ books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books, referring mostly to Impersonalists, Buddhists, materialists, political parties socialists and mundane religionists.

The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters are all as equal as each other. Why wouldn’t they be so? Srila Prabhupada warned us to not dwell too much on why and how we are here, but to get out of this material dreaming condition however sometimes one has to stand up for their Spiritual Master when the words he has said are very very clear clear. I read only his books and most critizism in this regards is coming Gaudiya math nonsense propaganda. I personally read Prabhupadas books HOWEVER also listen to his classes or morning walks when HE is quoting from his books that give insight into his books.Therefore on many occasions he has said that our existence in the material world is so long that it seems we have come from tatastha, then throws his transcendental vision in the arena by saying that before that we also existed in another creation of matter and before that, and before that, and before that – how far can we go back? And he finishes by saying, before that even, we were with <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

1. The time factor of past present and future exists in the mahat-tattva, a place of divided time that has the effect of decay and impermanence.

2. The impersonal characteristic of ones consciousness is called the jiva-tatastha conscious state that is devoid of past, present and future. The jiva-sakti consciousness is suspended in a dreamless timeless existence we call tatatasha, but even that conscious state is temporary due to the inherent active nature of one consciousness that originates from ones perpetual rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

3. The goloka-Vrndavan realm on the other hand is fully active in a way where there is no past or future as the Brahma-samhita tells us, there is only the perpetual present, and so everything has always been there and will always be there. Our svarupa body has always been there.

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings of previous Acharayas because Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations of those writings that he personally encouraged us to pursue, and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures. we must understand what we are doing for Lord Chaitanya and why, although there is even great benefit in being told what to do under the correct guidance. We musat uderstand that the method of deliverance in Kali-yuga is the congregational chanting of Hare Krishna and distributing Srila Prabhupadas books EVERTHING ELSE IS SECONDARY, including the over emphasis of on Vedic retuals and even Diety worship if nessessary. 'Sell the Temples and print books if you have too" Srila Prabhupadas Spiritual Master once told him. Fortunately we live in a rich society where both can be done but Sankrirtan including book distribution s the bases of Srila Prabhupadas Lord Chaitanya movement.The story of the humble simple minded sudra cobbler and the arrogant puffed up brahmana jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

There is one clear overwhelming point the 'tatastha origin buddies' don't seem to understand, and that is Srila Prabhupada has said our origins are from Vaikuntha

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”

Srila Prabhupada “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious dreams are characterized as being fallen from our position in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha"

Srila Prabhupada explains clearly that in reality we are not fallen, our rasa body actually goes nowhere and is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because we are simply in a dreaming condition’.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”.

These comments Srila Prabhupada has said cannot be refuted. No amount of word jugglery or denying his comments we will change these facts.

A bonafide disciple of Sila Prabhupada understands this because such a devotee or grand disciple bases all the Vedas on Srila Prabhpadas books, interviews, classes, letters and morning walks tapes. He or She sees the entire Vedas and their true meanings through such teachings Srila Prabhupada has given us.As devotees of Srila Prabhupada we are not interested in what other Gaudiya groups say or believe because His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the present bonafide representative of His Spiritual Master. We understand Vedanta through his books only, even if we do read other Vedic texts. I believe you and I and everyone else on this website would not know anything about <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> if it was not for Srila Prabhupada.

Your servant Vaikunthapati das. Hare Krishna.

May 8, 2007

Dandavat obeisances to the Sanga.

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.

I am not buying Guruvani's "pablum" preaching to neophytes argument.

If Srila Prabhupada stated as a fact some aspect of Tattva as the Vada of our Siddhanta, then it is just that.

To say that he would tell different disciples different things on the exact same subject matter, even immortalizing those words in letters, and not expect that to sow seeds of confusion between his disciples, is not prescient.

He may have more than once resorted to the "crow and tal fruit logic" example in order to channel the focus of some very neophyte disciples from this contemplation which may have been over their heads at the time.

But if indeed he gave definitive answers as stated above, in no uncertain terms, let us just call it the truth.

If these statements of his could be verified, and the letters verified, they must stand as some level of philisophical conclusion or tattva vada.

To intimate that Srila Prabhupada would consciously sow seeds of confusion by offering opposing contradictory positions on an exacting matter of tattva, is worse than to decry those who are still working their way up the ladder of this particular conception, and fanatically claiming that their latest realization of where the jiva comes from is the be all and end all.

There are plenty of gradual conceptions along the way, in matters of the origin of jiva, as well as the nature of prakriti, Maha Maya, Visnu-tattva etc., which are laced through the scriptures as part of the divine play. They serve many purposes, including a litmus test to see who is a fanatic. Each conceptual stage can also be realized, strangely enough. But ultimately, there is one over arching truth which can be realized which trumps all others.

And that final ultimate truth is realized just before it no longer matters anymore, because the NON-GODLIKE sweetness and informal intimacy of relationship with Radha and Krsna takes over and all the hierarchical wrangling is dropped and left behind for good, like a child drops his favorite toy, when he is given a new one he likes better, and never looks back.

Hare Krsna

Laulyam · May 8, 2007

Everyone is under the impression that he is of this material world, and with this concept of life, everyone is working in ignorance in different forms of life. The activities of the particular type of body are called karma, or fruitive action. All conditioned souls under the impression of the bodily concept are working according to their particular types of body. These activities are creating their future conditional life. Because they have very little information of the spiritual world, they do not generally take to spiritual activities, which are called bhakti-yoga. Those who successfully practice bhakti-yoga, after giving up this present body, go directly to the spiritual world and become situated in one of the Vaikuntha planets. The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikunthalokas. The fact is, those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna's association in the universes within the material world. Krsna's pastimes are continuously going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing through many places across the earthly planet, so krsna-lila, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Krsna, are also going on continually, either in this or another universe. The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the vrndavana-lila of Krsna within this planet. Krsna therefore revealed the actual feature of the Vaikuntha planets so that the inhabitants of Vrndavana could know their destination.

May 9, 2007

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”

Srila Prabhupada “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

Srila Prabhupada explains clearly that in reality we are not fallen, our rasa body actually goes nowhere and is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because we are simply in a dreaming condition’.

May 9, 2007

Vigraha may explain the fall from Vaikuntha in a different way by using secondary consciousness instead of ‘conditioned soul’ or ‘lower self’. Prabhupada encouraged his disciples to his give details of his teachings in

different ways without loosing the true meaning of his teachings, Vigraha and

Pradyumna Swami are doing that. All they are doing is emphasizing the fact that we all have an original rasa body, explaining and emphasizing that point with correct Sanskrit words such as nitya, siddha, svarupa, atma, vigraha, sat, cit, ananda, vigraha to drive home the fact we all have an original eternal body in Vaikuntha.

I see nothing wrong with that clarification and the harsh criticism by some of him is offensive. Some people look at the moon and see its beauty while others look at the moon looking for faults.Well lets look to the previous Acharyas in our line, as well as other Vaishnava lines, in order to buttress and elucidate the philosophical Truths which Prabhupada unequivocally presents. That is not an offense toward the previous acharyas; indeed, it would be an offense to do otherwise.

Srila Prabhupada is the most recent uttama-adhikari, and it's his books lectures and tapes that will be the manuals establishing Absolute Truth and its lawful application by humanity for the next 9,500 years. He is now the prominent acharya. If somebody actually becomes God-realized acharya after Prabhupada, that exalted personality will have to be repeating Prabhupada exactly. Ways and means may differ, but philosophy of the Absolute cannot differ a bit. Prabhupada did not differ a bit from the Thakur, and the accurate translations from Bhaktivinode's Bengali only highlight that transcendental reality.

"But in his functional, manifest nature, the jiva is also infinite, pure, and eternal. As long as the jiva is pure, for that long his nature manifests as perfectly pure. But when, by contact with maya, the jiva becomes impure, then a distortion of his proper functional nature occurs. He becomes impure, devoid of shelter, and pummeled by happiness and distress. As soon as the jiva has forgotten his servitude to Krsna, the paths of samsara confront him". - Jaiva Dharma, second chapter.?

How can you forget something you never had? Or, more specifically, if you're floating along in the brahmajyoti--not serving Krsna at all--then how can you fall from there (originally) and forget the servitude to Krsna you supposedly had there?

The Thakur was presenting the same thing Prabhupada presents, and it gets even better:

"Presiding over His jiva-sakti, He manifests His vilasa form of Baladeva in Vraja". -Jaiva Dharma, second chapter.

The inference is obvious. The jiva-sakti belongs to Lord Balaram. Lord Balaram is the vilasa form of Lord Krsna in the spiritual world--in the world of personal relationships (rasas) with the various forms of the Godhead. The jiva is indicated herein to originally be an integral part of that transcendental, personal environment.

The living entity is contra-indicated to originally be situated in a state of anesthesia or susupti in the body of Maha Visnu. Certainly, floating about in the brahmajyoti is out of the question.

"From the knowledge of that sambandha tattva, we have learned that the jiva, having forgotten his eternal relation with Krsna, has fallen in to the sea of samsara . . .". -Sri Caitanya-siksamrtam, p.43.

"The thought of the cit body of the jiva, which was existent prior to its contact with matter, is just and natural".?- Sri Caitanya-siksamrtam, p. 157.

Krsna consciousness is the ultimate supernatural process. When the living entity makes his or her move toward ultimate evolution, Krsna consciousness becomes more and more a natural and holistic process in thought, feeling, and action. The intelligence (buddhi-yoga) becomes naturally and spontaneously attuned to Krsna consciousness. Herein, the Thakur is referring to devotees. He is saying that, for devotees, the natural process is to think about their original relationships with Krsna. They are also completely justified when they do so ("just and natural").

"The jiva, who is essentially cit . . . had the sense of determining right and wrong and also pure intellect for enjoying . . He had knowledge that God is the Ultimate Being". - Sri Caitanya-siksamrtam, p. 220.

"Even in his unalloyed spiritual state, the jiva is infinitesimal. He is liable to undergo change of condition . . . The worldly course makes its appearance simultaneously with the jiva's loss of all recollection of the servitorship of Krsna". - Jaiva Dharma, Chapter One.

We were in one condition, but we underwent a change of condition. We do not at all recollect our original condition, but, when we become devotees--if we are not misled by false philosophy--we may indeed begin to recollect it in due course.

"In his true nature, the jiva is the devoted servant of Krsna. The jivas, who have gone astray against that nature of theirs--due to their seeking after their own pleasure--turned away from Krsna and, as such, became punishable". - Jaiva Dharma.

The jiva was originally a servant--as in a personal relationship with God in one of the five rasas (or, technically, you could say in one of the four higher rasas, but we get very esoteric at that point). He went astray from his originally relationship with God. More powerfully stated, he turned away, indicating an intentional act of responsibility and volition. He became punishable for this offensive act of rebellion. How could you become punishable for falling out of the impersonal brahmajyoti?

The Thakur has also something to say about the understanding of the enigmatic--and very relevant Sanskrit adjective--"anadi". The no-fall theorists use their interpretation of this Sanskrit word as a pillar of their philosophy. Anadi also happens to be a part of two very famous and oft-quoted citations:

Krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha

"Forgetting Krsna, the living entity has turned his face away from the Lord from time immemorial". - Caitanya-caritamrita, Madhya lila, 20.108.

na karmavibhagad iti can nanaditvat?- Vedanta-sutra, 2.1.35.

"Not activity, because of non-distinction. No, because it is beginningless".

In both of these cases, the no-fall philosophers use anadi to make their point. They say that the living entity has eternally been averse to the service of the Lord. They say that Vedanta-sutra proves that everyone did not have the same karma at the beginning of creation, because both karma and the living entity's entanglement in it is beginningless or eternal. These appear to be stalwart points, but they both fall apart when the proper interpretation of anadi for these texts is applied. The Thakur says:

". . . the seed of karma lies in the matrix of jiva's marginal position. Since karma's source within the material world is untraceable, it is described as beginningless". - Jaiva Dharma

"Service of Sri Krsna is the eternal nature of a jiva. When he forgets this relationship, he is overwhelmed by the influence of maya . . . (s)ince the backward condition of a jiva springs up along with his coming into this mayika world, the history of his downfall within the bounds of time and space is out of the question. Hence, the significance of the expression bahirmukha, eternally backward".?- Jaiva Dharma, First Chapter.

"When he forgets Krsna, he is averse to serve Krsna, and his aversion has no beginning as it dates before his incarnation within the four walls of time and space". - Jaiva Dharma, First Chapter.

". . . the origin of jiva's karma, i.e., aversion to God, is coming even prior to material time. . . therefore, karma has been designated as anadi, i.e., without any beginning". - Sri Caitanya-siksamrtam, p. 158

Previously in this position paper, we brought out some quotations from Prabhupada which say, in essence, the same thing the Thakur was preaching. However, repetition of Truth is never hackneyed, so here's another verification from His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada on the accurate interpretation of anadi:

"This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the living entity's eternally existing with Him, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant". - Srimad Bhagavatam, 2.5.19, purport.

Srila Bhaktivinode's view of the origination of the jiva continues:

"When we are imprisoned in the material world, we search for what had been in the Vaikuntha-rasas". - Prema-pradipa, p. 96.

"However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas". - Prema-pradipa, p. 83.

Now, it may be debated that Srila Prabhupada was more explicit about the personal origination of the jiva than the Thakur. In light of the last quote (above), one would be hard-pressed to claim that Bhaktivinode did not explicitly preach that we originally came from a personal relationship with Krsna. The comparative debate can still be made, but Srila Bhaktivinode presented one hard-hitting quotation that even Srila Prabhupada only inferentially touched upon:

"Jiva's imprisonment commenced due to his offenses. The original offense is jiva's forgetfulness of his position as the eternal servant of Krsna". - Jaiva dharma.

We fall down due to aparadha. The seed of the aparadha first sprouts when we forget that we are dasa, dasa, dasa . . . not God, but dasa . . . servant, servant.

Jivera svarupa haya nityera krsna dasa. Try to remember that, prabhus. Try to remember. Try to remember, because you--like me and like all of us--made original offense. Now the offense is continuing, covering everybody up with the no-fall, no responsibility, no (real) free will, no ultimately personal source theory of apasiddhantic aparadha polluting the Hare Krsna movement worldwide. Jivera svarup haya nitya krsna das, prabhus. Jivera svarupa haya--dasa, dasa, dasa.

"Jiva is the proprietor of an eternal identity that is extremely esoteric and subtle". - Jaiva Dharma.

Spiritual realization is undoubtedly difficult and subtle. First jnana, then vijnana. But the jnana must be jnana--otherwise, there will only be hallucination, not wisdom. Esoteric realization in devotional service must be based upon the standard service, but how can there be standard service when the Absolute Philosophy is warped into the no-fall presentation? It's not all that esoteric to understand that the Standard Philosophy is the Standard Service.

"The child, Bimala Prasad, pretending the childish nature, ate up the mangoes without the knowledge of his father". - Back to Godhead, Volume One, Part IX, March, 1952 Article entitled: Paramahansa Sree Sreemad Bhakti Siddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaj

"Instead of passing our time here, we want to go back to our eternal abode". - Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 111.

Many devotees in the Madhva-Gaudiya sampradaya are inclined to call our spiritual master "Swami Maharaj" but are loath to call him "Prabhupada". Sometimes, they say "your Prabhupada" or something like that.

Still, these devotees, without exception, all glorify Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur with the term "Prabhupada". All of us agree there. What we may not agree upon, however, is whether or not Srila Bhaktisiddhanta actually (and explicitly) preached the doctrine of the fall of jiva from the spiritual world.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada was the foremost sidereal astrologer in modern (20th Century) times, as well as the foremost scholar of the Vaishnava teachings. He was so scholarly in fact, that some parts of his English writings are practically incomprehensible. His Bengali tract on Surya-siddhanta is likewise a tour-de-force in esoteric astronomical science. He was preaching to a scholastic crowd in much of his writings.

These kinds of people, when they study Vedic or Vaishnava teachings, are invariably attached to the Mayavada interpretation of the Vedas. After his father Bhaktivinode put a big dent in the prominent sahajiyaism of that time, mayavada pollution started to seep into the Vaishnava teachings.

The modern age was on the ascendant during the era of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, and sophisticated mayavada (mixed with so-called bhakti) was coming into vogue.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta needed to blunt and, wherever possible, convert that influence. As such, his prolific writings do not contain an over-abundance of references to the personal fall of the jiva, as this epistemology was interpreted (by the sophisticated set) to be retro, a fallback to the dangerous sentimentality of a religion they both despised and rejected. If the scholarly understanding of Vaishnavism ultimately led to the conclusion that there was not much difference between it and Christianity, they would reject it out of hand. Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta had to maintain his connection to Western scholasticism, and, at the same time, not compromise our teachings. It was a daunting task, and, befitting a God-realized acharya, he carried it out perfectly.

muralidhar_das · May 9, 2007

Srila Sanatana Goswami wrote in Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam (1.2.195):

vaikuntha vasino hy ete kecid vai nitya-parsadah

pare krsnaya krpaya sadhayatvemam agatah

Translation: Some residents of Vaikuntha are eternal associates of the Lord; others have attained the transcendental world by Krishna's mercy after having practiced sadhana.

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If souls are "always in Vaikuntha" then these words of Sanatana Goswami make no sense.

May 9, 2007

I also fully understand the terms 'atma-vigraha' or 'nitya-siddha-svarupa' and 'jiva-atma-vigraha', such terms, even though unfamiliar to many of us, is just another way to empathize that we all have an original body in Vaikuntha.

As far as I'm concerned it's just another translation of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. The words atma (soul) vigraha (form) is only establishing that the soul has an eternal body. In fact I believe Vigraha has helped many further understand this controversy, especially his understanding of the mahat-tattva and of Maha-Vishnu.

So, in our research, we have not found a plethora of references by Bhaktisiddhanta Srila Prabhupada to the personal origination of the jiva. In other words, we didn't find as many as we did from his illustrious father, Bhaktivinode Thakur. But find some we did, and, although a few of these may be considered cryptic, others are quite direct:

"

Jiva is a spiritual atomic part of Krsna. When he forgets his service of Krsna, he is at once deflected by the attracting power of maya in this world, who throws him into the whirlpool . . ." - Brahma-samhita, purport to Text 44.

No service to forget in brahmajyoti. No service to forget in susupti, either.

"It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . ."?- Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323.

This quotation contra-indicates the no-fall conclusion to such an extent that we cannot help but wonder how devoted followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta could possibly think that he represented their modern viewpoint. It could be argued that Bhaktivinode Thakur was trying to preach to Western religious sentimentality, but the writings of Siddhanta Sarasvati were of a radically different nature. How can any sane person rationalize that Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta was simply tailoring his presentation to the Western religious mindset in this quotation?

"This stage is known as regaining the true function after the expiry of his term of imprisonment as an enjoyer". - Explorations in Vedantic Truth

Regaining? How can you regain something if you never had it in the first place?

Regaining the true function is what the whole process of Krsna consciousness is meant for, and the no-fall philosophy is a huge stumbling block put in the soul's way.

"We can go back to the higher rasa if we are anxious to be eternal rasikas". - Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 116.

The state of brahman (floating in the brahmajyoti) or the state of susupti (lying dormant like under anesthesia in the body of Maha Visnu) are never considered states of higher rasa. Something else is being referred to, something else that entails a personal relationship (rasa) with God.

"Liberation is nothing but going back to the original position, that is, offering our services to the Eternal Being". - Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 116.

All devotees should philosophically return to square one and go back to the original position: the Truth Absolute that the living entity was once in a position of offering services to God in a personal relationship. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur preached this, and any other conclusion is belied by these quotes.

Srila Prabhupada was initiated by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Srila Prabhupada perfectly represented his spiritual master; they both stood for the same things. They both preached the same Truths. We can plainly see that they were in essential agreement on this important subject. They may have pretended many things in their lives, because preaching will always entail that. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, while he was known by the childhood name of Bimal Prasad, pretended to steal away bhoga (an unoffered mango), but his transcendental purposes were nevertheless accomplished in that act.

As such, we should never try to predicate the minds of mahabhagavats.

The intelligence of the saktyavesh avatar is beyond our comprehension. We should not label direct preaching of the Absolute Truth as subterfuge. It is as dangerous to do so as it is nonsense. Prabhupada said we must know when to laugh and when not to laugh. Similarly, we must know when there may be some kind of transcendental trickery (for the spiritual evolution of all concerned) and when there cannot be, i.e., when there is mukhya-vritti in the form of straight preaching of the Absolute. These empowered incarnations were never ordinary men. We should not think even for a moment that they were bewildered in any way--or engaged in a kind of metaphysical sleight of hand--when they preached the original position of the jiva and his fall from a personal relationship in the Godhead.

"The position of the jiva is a part of the tatastha-sakti that can enjoy, cease to enjoy, and go back to his original position".?- Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 101.

The bakery attendant says: "Buy some bread--it's fresh out of the oven". So, you could say that the oven is the source of the bread. It's not false to say so, although it's not ultimately the case. There were previous stages for the bread; its source was ultimately the field. For many if not most jivas (as referenced previously in the Prabhupada quotation from Australia), their most recent source may well have been the brahmajyoti. All of us may have climbed up there and fallen from there repeatedly.

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A conditioned soul cannot know. So, someone can say that his or her source is from his or her mother's womb. That would not be inaccurate. But someone else could say, before even that, his or her source was the brahmajyoti. That could very well be accurate, also. However, before that even, the ultimate source was the Godhead, the personal relationship with Krsna. The tatastha-sakti originally comes from that position, and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Maharaj Prabhupada also expounded upon that revelation.

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"Then, being bewildered and covered, he is fallen from advaya-vaikuntha". - Vivritti commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam, 11.2.48

This citation is subtle. The no-fall philosophers may use it to establish their siddhanta. In doing so, they would emphasize "advaya". The brahmajyoti is often called "advaita". The mayavada philosophy of Sankaracharya is also called "advaita", and the term advaya is integrally related with the Sanskrit advaita.

However, we may consider the other term: vaikuntha. Prabhupada says that existence in the brahmajyoti, merging in the brahmajyoti, is ultimately just another form of conditioned life. Sri Isopanisad enjoins the living entity to appeal to God for the lifting of such brahman realization, as it covers His face. As such, vaikuntha, the land of the Lord, is not actually synonymous with the brahmajyoti.

Is Srila Bhaktisiddhanta trying to hint that the living being was originally tossed down from the effulgent advaya light--but ameliorating his followers' conditioning by adding the term "vaikuntha" into this compound? Or, rather, was he trying to ameliorate the hardened conditioning of his scholastic well-wishers--and even some of his devotees (who had become affected by that prevalent interpretation)--by throwing in the term "advaya" to the compound advaya-vaikuntha.

This is a cryptic citation, and you can see how subtle the debate gets when these kinds of quotations are referenced.

Now, can advaya have any connection to the personal teachings of achintya bhedabheda or visistadvaita--or Madhva's straight dvaita--in our Krsna consciousness movement? We don't have to look far for the answer. Simply we have to ask ourselves this question: who was responsible for bringing about the incarnation of the Krsna consciousness movement? The answer, of course, is advaita, as in Advaita Acharya. So, if the incarnation of Maha Visnu can take the name of Advaita in His pastimes with Lord Caitanya, why cannot Srila Bhaktisiddhanta also employ the term when referring to the spiritual world?

Strong evidence has been presented in the preceding section that shows Prabhupada's depiction of the origination of the jiva is non-different from his predecessor spiritual masters, viz. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur. However, what about spiritual masters further back and what about gurus in other lines? Is personal origination also part of their siddhanta?

L

et us consider the pratisthacharya of the Sri sampradaya, Srila Ramanujacharya:

atma-svarupa-matrasya prag eva siddhatve'pi karma-bandha-vinirmuktaparicchinna-jnanadi-svarupasya hy atravirbhava ucyate.

"Here it's stated that the specific form of the jiva's constitutional body was known, existing in perfection. Upon the manifestation of that form of unlimited knowledge, the jiva is freed from karmic bondage". - Vedanta-sara commentary on Vedanta sutra 4.4.2

Especially consider the clause prag eva siddhatve 'pi. Siddha means the perfection of existence, especially in the context of this condition being known or manifested. Prag means before that time, i.e., before the time that the perfect condition is manifested--or, more precisely and accurately, re-manifested. The spiritual body has spiritual senses. These senses are meant for reciprocation with the Lord of those senses, the Supreme Person.

Their previous existence in perfection could only indicate their previous activity--otherwise, there would be no perfect existence of those transcendental senses in that constitutional body. The other clause adds emphasis to this point: the jiva existed in personal form and personal sensual perfection prior to his (or her) re-manifestation of that perfection at vimukti, complete liberation.

Or, as Lord Caitanya puts it: nitya-siddha krsna-prema. Originally, the soul was (is) perfectly active in a loving, eternal relationship with the Supreme Lord. Sripad Ramanujacharya is in complete agreement with this understanding, as evidenced by his commentary to the above-mentioned verse of Vedanta-sutra.

Most of Prabhupada's devotees remember that he consulted a thick, greenish book of commentaries on Srimad Bhagavatam while he was compiling his own of the Bhagavat. That book is still available today. For example, the Varanasi library has a copy of it. Basically, the book contains the commentaries of various acharyas in the four sampradayas on each verse of the Bhagavatam. Of course, they didn't all comment on every one of the verses. The initial commentary is by Sridhar Svami, and this turned out to be a subject of some contention between Lord Caitanya and Vallabha. That pastime is tangental to our current topic, but suffice it to say that these commentaries had value to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, otherwise he would not have consulted them.

One of those commentators is Sri Viraraghavacharya:

evam svasya guna-traya-karma-bandhbhvam uktva jivasyapi

samsara-banddha aupadhikatvad anitya ity aha soketi.

"There is no karmic bondage of the three modes for God, and, in the verse beginning with lamentation, the jiva's bondage to the cycle of birth and death is said to not be eternal (anitya), because it is based on material designations". - Commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.2

Many of our friends in the no-fall camp are considered advanced scholars in Sanskrit, Vaishnava literature, and the study of siddhanta. The Sanskrit in this commentary is neither cryptic, nor obscure, nor complicated. The meaning is self-evident. Viraraghavacharya states that karmic bondage is anitya. Anitya. Not eternal. Temporary, like everything else concocted in this material world--including the no-fall apasiddhanta.

Another commentator to the Bhagavatam is Sri Vijayadhvaja Tirtha:

nija varnam paramatma-gatim ananda-svarupam ca bhajeta

kinca sa jivah punar avyayo'samvrtah avarana-rahito bhavati.

"Upon attaining the goal of the Supreme Soul, He serves in his own personal luster and color and in his own personal form of bliss. At that time, the jiva again attains his imperishable form, completely uncovered and free from impediment". - Pada-ratnavali commentary to Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Notice "again attains". Trying to explain away punah ("again") to not mean what it so self-evidently means is like the mayavadis trying to say that aham does not mean "I". We once were active in a personal, loving relationship with God. When we attain liberation in the original form of our lustrous body and color, we shall again be actively engaged in that original relationship. The process of devotional service is really to learn about Krsna: it is to become educated about Him.

The Latin educare means "to bring out". We need to bring out what has always been there and always will be there. We have to bring out those memories. We have to again (punah) bring out that transcendent devotional experience. This is what it means to remember Krsna. Thus the concept of revelation, indicating that Krsna is again revealed to us.

Realization is important, but, having not even understood the ultimate origination of the jiva or 'atma-vigraha' --such an essential point of philosophy--how can our friends in the no-fall camp possess any great level of realization or revelation? Hopefully, this article will help jar some of those memories a bit, because knowledge has to be given to everyone--but according to personal capacity. And, last but certainly not least, what about the great scholar Jiva Gosvami? He is one of the prominent commentators on the Bhagavatam, and you'll find his purports often in that aforementioned book of commentaries. What does he have to say on this important topic? Here's his commentary on Srimad

Bhagavatam 11.11.3:

vastuto nitya-mukto'pi pratitito 'nadi-baddha

iti yugapad ubhayatvam ghatata ity arthah.

"Simultaneously, both are transpiring: the jiva is eternally liberated in substantive form and is bound without beginning".

The Sanskrit anadi-baddha embodies the exact same concept as nitya-baddha; they are absolutely non-different in meaning--and not much different even in the Sanskrit. So Prabhupada has been previously quoted about the concept of nitya-baddha ("Eternally conditioned means we do not know when we have been conditioned like this. It is not possible to trace out the history".). This is the correct context for understanding Sri Jiva Gosvami's use of anadi-baddha in the referenced commentary.

We are considered eternally conditioned, because it has been such a long, long time. The history can never be traced out. The history may well be previous to this kalpa's Brahma. The history of our conditioning is before the material creation:

"And some of them, those who are not fit to live in that spiritual world, they are--I mean to say--sent to this material world". - Lecture, Buffalo, April 23, 1969.

The circular fallacy of argument has been in vogue for so long in our movement, but we must, somehow or other, put a stop to it. We undermine shastra by misinterpreting Jiva Gosvami's commentary. Mental speculation is a serious sin. Jiva Gosvami should only be understood in relation to the current acharya in his line: Srila Prabhupada. We can, however, employ philosophical speculation (tattva-jnanartha-darsanam, Bg. 13.12).

That is wanted. We can try to understand, in the framework of Prabhupada's interpretation of nitya-baddha, how the jiva is simultaneously eternally liberated in his spiritual form and nitya-baddha (conditioned forever in the context of material time).

There's no need to beg the question. If you've not proved something, you can't use it as evidence for arguing another point (circular logic). We shall never ascertain the conclusion by such a bogus method. Prabhupada tells us what nitya-baddha means, and he goes on to inform us that we have all fallen from a personal relationship with God in the spiritual world. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinoda Thakur concur with his conclusion. So does Ramanuja, Viraraghava, and Vijayadhvaja-tirtha. And so does Sri Jiva Gosvami.

All the liberated souls acted with this understanding in the past. Ambitious persons should stop trying to manufacture a new philosophy in the name of Vaishnava siddhanta as it applies to the origination of the soul. The standard philosophy is necessary for the practice of the standard service, and the means and the end are the same: re-establishing a loving personal relationship with Lord Sri Krsna.

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Srila Prabhupada, however, wants you to become knowledgeable. He wants that knowledge in you to mature and evolve into wisdom (vijnana). He shares this desire as a representative of the parampara. The Supersoul also wants to see you move in this direction, but He will not interfere. If you insist upon becoming a fanatic, He will help you to do that. If you insist upon digging yourself ever more deeply into one of the corners of the triangulation of devotional service, He will provide you with greater and greater rationalizations in order to do so. That will not help you become actually fixed up in devotional service, however.

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"(W)ithout first properly understanding the science of the Absolute Truth, one cannot possibly develop firm devotion to the Supreme Lord". - Renunciation Through Wisdom, page 30

There is scant progress on this path when you are beguiled by covert monism. Without knowledge about the origination of the jiva, i.e., how you came to be in this material world, a wrong idea inevitably leads to misconceptions about guru, initiation, pure devotional service, etc. As Prabhupada so concisely put it: "Monism and Love of God go ill together". Before developing firm devotional service, we need to understand the basic building blocks of the Absolute Philosophy. You will have a very hard time unmasking pretension unless you first catch onto the Truth of Origination.

Why did Srila Prabhupada write so many books, give so many lectures, record so many conversations that are all egually important as each other? What is in all of those books? Those books are loaded from cover to cover with theistic philosophy. If such philosophy is so unimportant or subsidiary, why did Prabhupada stress his books so much? Did rituals predominate in his books, in his lectures, in his room conversations, in his letters, or on his walks? No, Philosophy did. Did sentiment predominate when Prabhupada wrote and spoke? No, Philosophy did. The Absolute Truth perfectly presented in a philosophical format dominated the speaking, lecturing, and writing of His Divine Grace.

And the origination of the jiva was a major topic within all of those presentations. Did Prabhupada stress the distribution of his books so his devotees could get money? No, he wanted them to learn--to become knowledgeable--and he wanted the people who purchased his books to similarly become knowledgeable.

Others talk about his so-called emphasis on "results", or they tell you how enamored they are with someone who gets them amped up for obtaining results. Results? Anyone can get results. Frenetically work at something, and you'll get "results". Perform austerities, and you'll get "results". Believe in something fanatically, and you'll get "results". There are numerous cults throughout the world that have opulent temples, crystal cathedrals, huge spreads, colossal churches, hundreds of thousands of followers, and big bank balances. Does that prove that any of them are actually representing the Absolute Truth? Does that prove that any of them can actually help you become advanced in spiritual understanding? Does that prove that, within these institutions, all the followers are even on the same page when it comes to basic philosophical beliefs?

For example, one such institution internationally now numbers a billion followers. Its leader unequivocally condemns abortion, yet half of its congregation in America believes that abortion is acceptable enough to be legalized. Many of them have even had an abortion. And yet they partake in all the rituals of the faith and profess to be members of the congregation in good standing. And most of them probably think that they understand the philosophy as well.

Similarly, anyone can take shelter of the hierarchical apparatus of a Vaishnava sect and believe that he or she is in good standing with the Lord. Identifying with the leaders, with the numbers, with the properties, with the deities, with the bureaucratic facilities, with the rituals, with the public relations--and, of course, with the initiations--such devotees may even give lip service to "Swami Maharaj". If they don't even understand what Prabhupada has revealed about the source of the jiva soul, does that mean Prabhupada is actually approving their activities?

As this article will show, His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada does not approve the unauthorized preaching of covert impersonalism. The no-fall theory is not connected to Ultimate Reality. Following such a flawed presentation of transcendence can never be a holistic endeavor. Fictionalization of individual consciousness is the inevitable result of such apa-siddhantic partiality.

The above two posts are inspired and mostly copied from by Kailasa Candra Prabhus' web page

May 9, 2007

Srila Sanatana Goswami wrote in Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam (1.2.195):

vaikuntha vasino hy ete kecid vai nitya-parsadah

pare krsnaya krpaya sadhayatvemam agatah

Translation: Some residents of Vaikuntha are eternal associates of the Lord; others have attained the transcendental world by Krishna's mercy after having practiced sadhana.

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If souls are "always in Vaikuntha" then these words of Sanatana Goswami make no sense.

Chapter 2. Contents of the Gita Summarized

TEXT 12

na tv evaham jatu nasam

na tvam neme janadhipah

na caiva na bhavisyamah

sarve vayam atah param

SYNONYMS

na--never; tu--but; eva--certainly; aham--I; jatu--become; na--never; asam--existed; na--it is not so; tvam--yourself; na--not; ime--all these; jana-adhipah--kings; na--never; ca--also; eva--certainly; na--not like that; bhavisyamah--shall exist; sarve--all of us; vayam--we; atah param--hereafter.

TRANSLATION

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

muralidhar_das · May 9, 2007

Jiva is a spiritual atomic part of Krsna. When he forgets his service of Krsna, he is at once deflected by the attracting power of maya in this world, who throws him into the whirlpool . . ." - Brahma-samhita, purport to Text 44.

You have foolishly taken one line of text and quoted it out of context.

TRANSLATION

The external potency Maya who is of the nature of the shadow of the cit potency, is worshiped by all people as Durga, the creating, preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda in accordance with whose will Durga conducts herself.

PURPORT

(The aforesaid presiding deity of Devi-dhama is being described.) The world, in which Brahma takes his stand and hymns the Lord of Goloka, is Devi-dhama consisting of the fourteen worlds and Durga is its presiding deity. She is ten-armed, representing the tenfold fruitive activities. She rides on the lion, representing her heroic prowess. She tramples down Mahisasura, representing the subduer of vices. She is the mother of two sons, Karttikeya and Ganesa, representing beauty and success. She is placed between Laksmi and Sarasvati, representing mundane opulence and mundane knowledge. She is armed with the twenty weapons, representing the various pious activities enjoined by the Vedas for suppression of vices. She holds the snake, representing the beauty of destructive time. Such is Durga possessing all these manifold forms. Durga is possessed of durga, which means a prison house. When jivas begotten of the marginal potency (tatastha sakti) forget the service of Krsna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga. The wheel of karma is the instrument of punishment at this place. The work of purifying these penalized jivas is the duty devolved upon Durga. She is incessantly engaged in discharging the same by the will of Govinda. When, luckily. the forgetfulness of Govinda on the part of imprisoned jivas is remarked by them by coming in contact with self-realized souls and their natural aptitude for the loving service of Krsna is aroused, Durga herself then becomes the agency of their deliverance by the will of Govinda. So it behooves everybody to obtain the guileless grace of Durga, the mistress of this prison house, by propitiating her with the selfless service of Krsna. The boons received from Durga in the shape of wealth, property, recovery from illness, of wife and sons, should be realized as the deluding kindness of Durga. The mundane psychical jubilations of dasa-maha-vidya, the ten goddesses or forms of Durga, are elaborated for the delusion of the fettered souls of this world. Jiva is a spiritual atomic part of Krsna. When he forgets his service of Krsna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world, who throws him into the whirlpool of mundane fruitive activity (karma) by confining him in a gross body constituted by the five material elements, their five attributes and eleven senses, resembling the garb of a prisoner. In this whirlpool jiva has experience of happiness and miseries, heaven and hell. Besides this, there is a subtle body. consisting of the mind, intelligence and ego, inside the gross body. By means of the subtle body. the jiva forsakes one gross body and takes recourse to another. The jiva cannot get rid of the subtle body. full of nescience and evil desires, unless and until he is liberated. On getting rid of the subtle body he bathes in the Viraja and goes up to Hari-dhama. Such are the duties performed by Durga in accordance with the will of Govinda. In the Bhagavata sloka, vilajyamanaya... durdhiyah--the relationship between Durga and the conditioned souls has been described.

Durga, worshiped by the people of this mundane world, is the Durga described above. But the spiritual Durga, mentioned in the mantra which is the outer covering of the spiritual realm of the Supreme Lord, is the eternal maidservant of Krsna and is, therefore, the transcendental reality whose shadow, the Durga of this world, functions in this mundane world as her maidservant.

I feel you (whoever you are) are acting very dishonestly.

You read a purport like this one in Brahma Samhita, you pick out a line that you like, and then make a claim that the statement you quote supports your concocted philosophy, then you broadcast this deception.

Look at the purport again. It says jivas come from the tatastha shakti - that is their origin.

When jivas begotten of the marginal potency (tatastha sakti) forget the service of Krsna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga.

Stop this dishonest behavior.

There are souls who are liberated and merged in God's impersonal aspect called Brahma (brahman). The "nigarbha-yogī" atmarama souls who adore God in his impersonal aspect are listed as "santa bhaktas" by Sri Chaitanya.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya

Madhya 24.164

ei saba śānta yabe bhaje bhagavān

'śānta' bhakta kari' tabe kahi tāńra nāma

"These thirteen types of yogīs and munis are called śānta-bhaktas, for they render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the neutral stage.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

They are impersonalists. They worship Krishna in the form of "formless Brahman". They can fall down into Maya. But the bhaktas in Vaikuntha never fall down.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya

Madhya 24.155

sagarbha, nigarbha, — ei haya dui bheda

eka eka tina bhede chaya vibheda

TRANSLATION

"The two types of ātmārāma-yogīs are called sagarbha and nigarbha. Each of these is divided into three; therefore there are six types of worshipers of the Supersoul.

PURPORT

The word sagarbha-yogī refers to a yogī who worships the Supersoul in the Viṣṇu form. The nigarbha-yogī worships the Supersoul without form. The sagarbha and nigarbha yogīs are further categorized: (1) sagarbha-yogārurukṣu, (2) nigarbha-yogārurukṣu, (3) sagarbha-yogārūḍha, (4) nigarbha-yogārūḍha, (5) sagarbha-prāpta-siddhi and (6) nigarbha-prāpta-siddhi.

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Such a great mass of souls who are of this temperament are existing, this mood of adoration of the Formless God, that compared to them the number of liberated devotees is very small.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 6.14.5

muktānām api siddhānāḿ nārāyaṇa-parāyaṇaḥ

sudurlabhaḥ praśāntātmā koṭiṣv api mahā-mune

TRANSLATION

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Nārāyaṇa, or Kṛṣṇa. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare.

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muralidhar_das · May 9, 2007

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by muralidhar_das

Srila Sanatana Goswami wrote in Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam (1.2.195):

vaikuntha vasino hy ete kecid vai nitya-parsadah

pare krsnaya krpaya sadhayatvemam agatah

Translation: Some residents of Vaikuntha are eternal associates of the Lord; others have attained the transcendental world by Krishna's mercy after having practiced sadhana.

-------------

If souls are "always in Vaikuntha" then these words of Sanatana Goswami make no sense.

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Chapter 2. Contents of the Gita Summarized

TEXT 12

na tv evaham jatu nasam

na tvam neme janadhipah

na caiva na bhavisyamah

sarve vayam atah param

SYNONYMS

na--never; tu--but; eva--certainly; aham--I; jatu--become; na--never; asam--existed; na--it is not so; tvam--yourself; na--not; ime--all these; jana-adhipah--kings; na--never; ca--also; eva--certainly; na--not like that; bhavisyamah--shall exist; sarve--all of us; vayam--we; atah param--hereafter.

TRANSLATION

Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.

What relevence has this verse of the Gita got to the statement I quoted by Sanatana Goswami?

May 9, 2007

Quote:
<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by muralidhar_das

Srila Sanatana Goswami wrote in Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam (1.2.195):

vaikuntha vasino hy ete kecid vai nitya-parsadah

pare krsnaya krpaya sadhayatvemam agatah

Translation: Some residents of Vaikuntha are eternal associates of the Lord; others have attained the transcendental world by Krishna's mercy after having practiced sadhana.

-------------

If souls are "always in Vaikuntha" then these words of Sanatana Goswami make no sense.

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What relevence has this verse of the Gita got to the statement I quoted by Sanatana Goswami?

Your nonsense ramblings are not understanding the essence of Vedanta. This texts proves we certainly did not originate from tatastha (impersonal Brahman) and these quotes from Srila Prabhupada proves we all originate from Vaikuntha

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”

Srila Prabhupada “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

Srila Prabhupada explains clearly that in reality we are not fallen, our rasa body actually goes nowhere and is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because we are simply in a dreaming condition’.

muralidhar_das · May 9, 2007

Can't you read?

When jivas begotten of the marginal potency (tatastha sakti) forget the service of Krsna they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durga

May 9, 2007

For starters what is described here is the material conditioning of the jiva long after they left Vaikuntha

The mundane psychical jubilations of dasa-maha-vidya, the ten goddesses or forms of Durga, are elaborated for the delusion of the fettered souls of this world.

"Jiva is a spiritual atomic part of Krishna. When he forgets his SERVICE of Krishna he is at once deflected by the attracting power of Maya in this world, who throws him into the whirlpool of mundane fruitive activity (karma) by confining him in a gross body constituted by the five material elements, their five attributes and eleven senses, resembling the garb of a prisoner".

Thats an exact quote from Brahma Samhita. The 'tatastha' revelation is attained from a previous existence within the material creation, long, lomg before that we were with Krishna

Hare Krishna, I have to go out and distribute Srila Prabhupadas' books now hari bol-- keep searching for the answers through devotion rather than book knowledge only.

muralidhar_das · May 9, 2007

For starters what is described here is the material conditioning of the jiva long after they left Vaikuntha

But according to your grand thesis all souls are in Vaikuntha and have never left Vaikuntha!

Can't you see the absurdity of this philosophy you are preaching?

Are we in Vaikuntha or are we in illusion in Maya?

I think I'm in Maya but I've learned enough from Guru-Gauranga to understand that your theoretical ideas are illusions.

Beggar · May 9, 2007

Many Prabhupada-only-ites are confused about the difference between pravacana or preaching and siddhanta or devotional conclusions. The haziness of their conception leads to all kinds of anomolies concerning jiva tattva, visnu tattva, guru tattva, siva tattva etc. They have doomed their imaginary Prabhupada to an existence without reconcilliation and thereby loving exchanges with his intimate godbrothers. They have forcibly divorced their imaginary Prabhupada from his guru, param guru, param param guru and his entire guru varga. Thank God that this all exists in the realm of imagination. Maybe we are all pure and high vaisnavas who know and have realized siddhanta but now we are just dreaming that we have become permanently trapped in the hard shell of the kannistha mentality?

May 9, 2007

Ones secondary consciousness enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to their desires not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu.

This thesis is attempting to understand how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

This separate version of the self is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

<u1:p></u1:p><U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear</U>. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes the point – <u1:p></u1:p>

“We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious phenomenon, only a dream. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada continues – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming” end of Srila Prabhupadas quote

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>The secondary extended conscious life force phenomena (jiva-sakti), emanating from ones own authentic perpetual rasa nitya-siddha bodily form (vigraha) in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha dominion, manifests due to its non-Krishna conscious nature. This jiva-sakti consciousness is transferred from Goloka and further facilitated or provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva creation. This cloud of the dreaming (the mahat-tattva) is also situated in the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (<st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) in one corner and is distinguished from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm by is phenomenal nature of impermanence and division of time. This has been a mystery to even many great Vishnavas (devotees of <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>) in the past in their attempts to try and understand the true origins of all living entities that enter that dark impermanent cloud in one corner of the Spiritual Sky (Brahmajyoti). <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti or the living force or life force (the extended consciousness of the nitya-siddha devotee in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti) may also fall from the jiva-tatastha conscious condition of spark like dormant consciousness that is situated between the Vaikunthas (Vishnuloka) and the mahat-tattva (the Impersonal aspect of Krishnas individual marginal consciousnesses or Brahmajyoti) however, from the bigger picture ofthecreation outside of the mahat-tattva and the thin Impersonal Brahmajyoti realm of marginal consciousnesses or dormant life forces (tatastha-saktis) separating the imperishable (Goloka) from the perishable (Vaikuntha), Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation and long, long, long, long before that our secondary consciousness was transferred or extended from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Brahmajyoti Spiritual Sky.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Ones secondary conscious projection</U> (jiva-bhutah) in this way can only manifest as a dormant spiritual spark (jiva-tatastha) AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. Such a dreamless conscious aspect of the life force (jiva-sakti) is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha condition of consciousness which is also the Impersonal extension of the Brahmajyoti we call the ‘Impersonal Brahmajyoti’. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>In this way we do not originate from tatastha or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti because JIVA-TATATHA CONSCIOUSNESS is a secondary conscious phenomenon transferred from ones rasa perpetual body in the beautiful Goloka-Vrndavana Spiritual sky or Brahmajyoti to the dark maha-tattva cloud in the same Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti as shown in the painting above. This may have to be read a few times to understand the real concept of Brahmajyoti and our authentic origins from Goloka. Only due to lack of real knowledge does one believe we originated from tatastha (the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti). All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Just having a brows through this forum and found this description very revealing, how many devotees know the story of the tiger Prabhupada told his disciples, it makes a lot of sense. Why do so many young devotee find this difficult to understand? I suppose without loving devotion one would not recognize Krishna even if He was standing right in front of us. I'm no longer interested in the dry arguments from Narayana maharajs disciples and the Srila Sridhar Dev-Goswami Mahara camp either. Its pointless continuing this argument

May 9, 2007

How can you speak the truth when you haven't realized it? First step toward truth is to seek guidance under the feet of a Sad Guru. Not someone who claims to represent such a Sad Guru and hides behind a mask saying that no one is a Sad Guru exept my departed Guru and anyone who claims to be such an enlightened soul will parrot his words exactly. What kind of nonsense is that? If Kailasa chandra thinks he is qualified to lead others then he should stand up and do so honestly, not by saying that his Guru is the only perfect one. If he is perfect then he can also impart that perfection on his faithful follower. It is that faithful follower who is the Sad Guru and who continues the parampara, not the one who claims there is no Sad Guru and yet wants to teach as if he is one.

You quote a verse from Bhagavad Gita and then tell a senior vaishnava who asks the relevance that he doesn't know Vedanta? Do you even know what Vedanta is?

Here is the sastra pramana from Vedanta Sutra regarding the jiva. You should know that sastra pramana can only be accepted if it is a direct quote from sastra, not from a commentary. Truths gleaned from commentaries must be corroborated with sastra pramana in order for them to be accepted. You know - Guru, Sadhu, Sastra. That is the way of Vedanta and it is what Srila Prabhupada taught all his disciples.

Here you go:

First - pramana regarding jivas origin -Sutra II.I.35

Na Karma Avibhagat iti chet Na Anaditvat -

(The theory of karma) cannot (explain the inequalities and cruelty seen in this universe, because when the creation first started) there was no distinction (of souls and consequently) of karmas. This (objection however) is not valid, because there is no beginning of creation.

In the commentary of Baladeva Vidyashushana he says that the karmas and the jivas are beginningless. He cites the Bhavisya Purana as evidence corroborating the second half of the sutra above regarding 'beginninglessness'.

'The Lord Vishnu makes the Jivas do good or bad deeds in accordance with their past karmas, nor is there any conflict in this position, because the karmas have no beginning.'

So there you have the sastra pramana regarding the nitya baddha jiva - eternally conditioned. There is no time when the conditioned jiva was not conditioned - the conditioned jiva is eternally so. If you read the introduction to Bhagavad Gita by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami you will see that he also says the same thing. The jiva and karma have no beginning.

Now Pramana regarding no fall:

This is the final sutra of Vedanta Sutra and with it the text falls silent

Sutra IV.4.22

Anavrittih Sabdat Anavrittih Saddat

There is no return (to Samsara for the Mukta) because of the word of God; yea there is no return, because of the word of God.

Krsna says the same thing in the Gita: (18.15,16)

The worlds, beginning with the world of Brahma, they come and go, O Arjuna, but he who cometh unto me, O Kaunteya, he knoweth birth no more.

The very idea that a liberated soul is cast down into samsara is abhorrent. There is no fear in Vaikuntha. Maya cannot enter there.

Those are the scriptural conclusions on the matter.

May 9, 2007

Not interested in your mundane word jugglery, the following is the only authority I believe in

"Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR eternal relationship with the Lord.

Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one's constitutional position".

Srila Prabhupadas comments in his Bhagavad-gita introduction

Hare Krishna

May 9, 2007

I have quoted the sastra pramanas for the beginninglessness of karma and for the fact that no one falls from the spiritual kingdom. So says sastra. Now as a sadhaka your job is to try to understand how exactly Guru, Sadhu and Sastra are in concordance with one another. That is no small task, it takes a lot of introspection and deep thought coupled with sincere prayer. It is called the Madhyama, or intermediate, stage of devotion.

When acharyas speak of reviving our inherent Krsna consciousness it does not mean going back to that which you came from. It is not an indication that you fell from the spiritual sky. It is a means of informing you that your true prospect is in Krsna bhakti and that it is there for you eternally - the question is, when will we take it? Acharayas use all sorts of metaphors and stories to get a point across. The point here is that even though we have always been conditioned, we do not have to remain so - we have a prospect beyond duality in seva at the feet of Rupa Goswami and all those who follow in his divine footsteps.

Lord Chaitanya says - jivera svarupaya nitya Krsna dasa - the eternal svarupa of the jiva is to be a servant of Krsna. That is our prospect. It is not that we were once living as perfected souls in Vaikuntha and somehow maya entered there and we were enticed to fall from there. That is not the siddhanta on the matter. The reality is that, yes, we are eternal servants of Krsna, but we have as yet to wake up to that fact.

There are so many stories in the Puranas that teach through allegory and through various other literary devices. The goal being to spark some interest on the part of the jiva in developing faith and acting in devotion.

Since knowledge and eternal service are inherent in the jiva using a terms such as 'forget' is understandable and useful, but it isn't true in the sense you have taken it.

May 9, 2007

Not interested in your mundane word jugglery, the following is the only authority I believe in

"Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR eternal relationship with the Lord.

Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one's constitutional position".

Srila Prabhupadas comments in his Bhagavad-gita introduction

Hare Krishna

YOU GUYS CAN ONLY AGREE ON DISAGREEING - YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE THE ABOVE OUOTE FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA, SO LET IT BE AND LETS ALL CHANT HARE KRISHNA!!

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

YOU GUYS CAN ONLY AGREE ON DISAGREEING - YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE THE ABOVE OUOTE FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA, SO LET IT BE AND LETS ALL CHANT HARE KRISHNA!!

Here is actual verse siddhanta:

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.134bhakti-bale 'prāpta-svarūpa' divya-deha pāya
kṛṣṇa-guṇākṛṣṭa hañā bhaje kṛṣṇa-pā'ya

SYNONYMS

bhakti-bale — by the strength of devotional service; prāpta-svarūpa — attaining his original status; divya-deha — a transcendental body; pāya — one gets; kṛṣṇa-guṇa-ākṛṣṭa — attracted by the transcendental qualities of Kṛṣṇa; hañā — being; bhaje — takes to devotional service; kṛṣṇa-pā'ya — at Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet.

TRANSLATION

"One who has attained his constitutional position by the strength of devotional service attains a transcendental body even in this lifetime. Being attracted by Lord Kṛṣṇa's transcendental qualities, he fully engages in service at His lotus feet.

Mahaprabhu said the soul "gets" a spiritual body.

He doesn't say revives or re-awakens his spiritual body.

It says that one ATTAINS a transcendental body.

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

YOU GUYS CAN ONLY AGREE ON DISAGREEING - YOU CAN NEVER CHANGE THE ABOVE OUOTE FROM SRILA PRABHUPADA, SO LET IT BE AND LETS ALL CHANT HARE KRISHNA!!

Svarupa also mean "nature". It does not always and explicity mean "eternal from" it can also mean eternal nature.

Here is a verse than shows what I am saying:

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.98rādhā-kṛṣṇa aiche sadā eka-i svarūpa
līlā-rasa āsvādite dhare dui-rūpa

SYNONYMS

rādhā-kṛṣṇa — Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa; aiche — in this way; sadā — always; eka-i — one; svarūpa — nature; līlā-rasa — the mellows of a pastime; āsvādite — to taste; dhare — manifest; dui-rūpa — two forms.

TRANSLATION

Thus Rādhā and Lord Kṛṣṇa are one, yet They have taken two forms to enjoy the mellows of pastimes.

So, svarupa can also mean "eternal nature" or eternal characteristic.

It does not always indicate form.

It can just as well indicate that nature of something.

We All Originated From Goloka

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