We All Originated From Goloka

[Vigraha]

 

 

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WE ALL ORIGINATED FROM GOLOKA

 

 

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The beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us that the perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by theimperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation. Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets; both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities or Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies where no material energy (Maha-Maya) can exist. The nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s (Krishna’s marginal potency) can never fall down as their bodily devotional self because of the perpetual uninterrupted nature of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is set in the eternal present beyond the concept of past and future.<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe divided by past, present and future and only 1/4 of creation)

This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees).

Ones secondary consciousness enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to their desires not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

 

 

Understanding the true origins of all living entities

 

This book is based on the teachings of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The difference between mental speculation and philosophical speculation is backing up ones realizations with quotes from Srila Prabhupada who is my Spiritual Master. Unless one engages in philosophical speculation, just how will one formulate relevant questions to place before their guru and search through his teachings for correct meaning and understanding? The difference between philosophical and mental speculation is conclusions based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings (books, tapes and letters) that is handed down to our society in the 21<SUP>st</SUP> Century giving the correct meaning and translations of all previous Acharayas.

Srila Prabhupada is the 32nd Spiritual Master in a line of disciplic succession that goes all the way back to Krishna. Srila Prabhupada, unlike all previous Acharayas, has spread the teachings of Lord Krishna and Sri Chaitanya to every corner of the globe. Due to his endeavours the chanting of Hare Krishna and the distribution of his books has reached every city, town and village around the world where Krishna has now become a house hold name.

Chanting Hare Krishna and engaging in devotional service will protect a sincere aspiring devotee as the cobbler was protected in the story of ‘the cobbler and the jnani’ (page ?) however there are also those sincere souls who may become disillusioned if they only follow the charisma of a particular Guru, Swami or general devotee when a philosophical crisis develops due to their sentimental understanding of Vedanta. Srila Prabhupada wanted all his disciples and grand disciples etc to study his books and learn HIS teachings and not simply become an un-knowledgeable follower in someone else’s religious plans, "Don't think, just do what you are told prabhu may have its place in helping some, but it is certainly not meant for everyone”, it is an old cliché that can be misused and deny one from their own personal realizations and natural Spiritual development and growth. This is also called being institutionalised.

If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism. One must study Srila Prabhupadas books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books. The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters.

The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures, although there is even great benefit in that. However the story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

 

I was once cleaning the Temple room in early 1973, in the process, I removed the paintings of the Panca-tattva (Lord Chaitanya and Nityananda and their associates) and Radha and Krishna down and placed them on the step of Srila Prabhupadas Vysa sign at the feet of Srila Prabhupadas’ photo on the Vysa sign because I did not want to put the painting on the floor.

As I continued cleaning, to my surprise Srila Prabhupada came in and on seeing the paintings on the step of his Vysa sign, began laughing and laughing and laughing in a serious yet surprised mood. Then he said,

“What is this?”

He was referring to the paintings of Radha and Krishna and the Panca-tattva sitting at his feet.

Srila Prabhupada then gently explained -

“I sit at the feet of Krishna and Lord Chaitanya, when you go back to Krishna, back to Goloka, you will understand.”

He then laughed again finding it humorous that one of his Western devotees would put the beautiful paintings of the Lord at the feet of their Spiritual Master

Srila Prabhupada had tears in his eyes as he began to start chanting japa while looking at the attractive painting of the Panca tattva and Radha and Krishna. (The curtains to the Dieties were closed)

Everyone else was out on Sankirtan except for the few devotees in the Kitchen. So there I was with Srila Prabhupada and no one else around in the Temple room. Srila Prabhupada said, after chanting for a few minutes -

“Radha and Krishna as Lord Chaitanya is very nice and so attractive’,

He then continued to laugh again as a father would laugh at the childish attempts of his young son to glorify him. What he was seeing I certainly could not see. Srila Prabhupada then started chanting japa in the temple room softly and I continued cleaning. When I finished the maintenance, Prabhupada then said in a humble chastising mood -

‘Now you can put the paintings back on the wall and always remember that I am always at the feet of Radha and Krishna, next time you clean, put the paintings on a chair and not on the step of the Vysa-sign, one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna”

For the next ten minutes we both chanted japa and then he payed his obeisances to Radha and Krishna, I payed my obediences to him and Srila Prabhupada went back to his room.

As a young 20 year old, the significance of his mercy was taken for granted, we had no idea of the significance of being pioneers in Lord Chaitanyas’ Movement in 1972 although we new that distributing Srila Prabhupadas books and chanting Hare Krishna on the streets in so many cities, towns was something very special. It was only thirty years later I began to realize how significant my association with Srila Prabhupada was, for me, I always believed we were once with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada personally confirmed that to me - “Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes” – Always chant Hare Krishna.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This thesis is attempting to understand how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

 

 

This separate version of the self is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

<u1:p></u1:p><U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear</U>. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes the point – <u1:p></u1:p>

“We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious phenomenon, only a dream. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada continues – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming” end of Srila Prabhupadas quote

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>The secondary extended conscious life force phenomena (jiva-sakti), emanating from ones own authentic perpetual rasa nitya-siddha bodily form (vigraha) in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha dominion, manifests due to its non-Krishna conscious nature. This jiva-sakti consciousness is transferred from Goloka and further facilitated or provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva creation. This cloud of the dreaming (the mahat-tattva) is also situated in the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (<st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) in one corner and is distinguished from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm by is phenomenal nature of impermanence and division of time. This has been a mystery to even many great Vishnavas (devotees of <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>) in the past in their attempts to try and understand the true origins of all living entities that enter that dark impermanent cloud in one corner of the Spiritual Sky (Brahmajyoti). <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti or the living force or life force (the extended consciousness of the nitya-siddha devotee in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti) may also fall from the jiva-tatastha conscious condition of spark like dormant consciousness that is situated between the Vaikunthas (Vishnuloka) and the mahat-tattva (the Impersonal aspect of Krishnas individual marginal consciousnesses or Brahmajyoti) however, from the bigger picture ofthecreation outside of the mahat-tattva and the thin Impersonal Brahmajyoti realm of marginal consciousnesses or dormant life forces (tatastha-saktis) separating the imperishable (Goloka) from the perishable (Vaikuntha), Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation and long, long, long, long before that our secondary consciousness was transferred or extended from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Brahmajyoti Spiritual Sky.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Ones secondary conscious projection</U> (jiva-bhutah) in this way can only manifest as a dormant spiritual spark (jiva-tatastha) AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. Such a dreamless conscious aspect of the life force (jiva-sakti) is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha condition of consciousness which is also the Impersonal extension of the Brahmajyoti we call the ‘Impersonal Brahmajyoti’. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>In this way we do not originate from tatastha or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti because JIVA-TATATHA CONSCIOUSNESS is a secondary conscious phenomenon transferred from ones rasa perpetual body in the beautiful Goloka-Vrndavana Spiritual sky or Brahmajyoti to the dark maha-tattva cloud in the same Spirtual Sky or Brahmajyoti as shown in the painting above. This may have to be read a few times to understand the real concept of Brahmajyoti and our authentic origins from Goloka. Only due to lack of real knowlege does one believe we originated from tatastha (the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti). All glories to Srila Prabhupada <!-- End - Right Container -->

 

 

[Devarsirat]

This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees).

 

and you are basing this on Srila Prabhupada saying " one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna” <?XML:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>

I could not possibly mean The Paramatma has been waiting?

 

I still can not see any scriptural evidence that we are right now in Goloka or Vaikuntha and just dreaming all this?

 

Rather then quoting from what Srila Prabhupada has said with your own purport attached, which to me is a second hand explanation being explained by another conditioned soul like me, i prefer an exact sloka or purport from Srila Prabhupadas books or any acharya in our line to confirm what you are saying.

 

Show me where it is stated anywhere that we are dreaming all this and are right now existing as pure spiritual associates of the lord just fantazising.

 

So where is that place in the spiritual world where all these trillions of panisads dreaming? its not something that is spoken of by any of our acharyas at all. Where has this idea of yours come from? who is your siksa guru?

 

Maybe you are confusing this with Lord Visnu dreaming?

 

 

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

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His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.

In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but a perishable reality situated in one corner of the Brahmajyoti Spiritual Sky or creation, we choose to forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our non-Krishna conscious desire and dreams within the mahat-tattva cloud in our attempts to become the centre of attraction or in our attempt to even become a supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen and our authentic bodily self is eternally there, “We are simply in a dreaming” explains Srila Prabhupada.

When the dreaming nitya-siddhas secondary consciousness (nitya-baddha) returns to his/hers original bodily position and full potential as ones Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha body, the secondary non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha state will dissipate like darkness dissipates as soon as the light is turned on. In this way, one will find themselve in the exact same Krishna Conscious position in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha as if they never left due to the absence of the divided time that exists in the mahat-tattva. Such time and impermance has no influence in the eternity of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because it simply does not exist there. Everyones Krishna Conscious perpetual body is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha whether they believe this or not because ones rasa body is the orins of ones consciousness in the mahat-tattva. So once one gas returned to the everlasting Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha from the perishable mahat-tattva, it will be as they had never left, just like in a dream. Also when the light (nitya-siddha) is on, one can see who they really are because the darkness (nitya-baddha) that denied them the spiritual vision of seeing their perpetual rasa Krishna Conscious body is no longer there because in the presents of nitya-siddha bodily self, the counterfeit nitya-baddha material consciousness simply does not exist like darkness cannot exist in the presents of light.

Understanding that our original sub-conscious fall down to the mahat-tattva is originally from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, has also been endorsed in an English translation of Prema-pradipa by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, as well as an English translation of Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, the Spiritual Mater of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees’ original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

 

 

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as, because of the attachment to pursue our non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the centre instead of Krishna. This is why our dreaming condition is transferred to the mahat-tattva.

Every atma (perpetual body) is a marginal vigraha Krishna Conscious devotee that collectively appears in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky and appears to exist collectively as a bright personal effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna’s beautiful body [Krishna's Supreme Vigraha body] that radiates the entire creation with (Brahmajyoti). The Impersonalist cannot understand this and how it is possible for the secondary conscious condition of their atma-vigraha body, to find its way to an Impersonal aspect of that Brahmajyoti.

The secondary (mahat-tattva or material creation) and third (Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha Brahma-sayujya) realms of creation of Lord Krishna also originate from the Personal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, both the second and third aspect of ‘conscious projection’ are the manifestation of the secondary conscious state of the atma-vigraha devotees, first as the their active stage in the mahat-tattva confined to ethereal and biological counterfeit bodily vessels, and then as the inactive state of tatastha consciousness in the so called Impersonal Brahmajyoti, free from ethereal and biological containers provided within the mahat-tattva.

In the secondary creation 'of the dreaming' called the mahat-tattva, Krishna and His marginal vigraha devotees are in a dreaming condition, not as their original bodies in Goloka, but in a dream state, Krishna expands as the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and the marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s expand or extend their consciousness, when NOT Krishna conscious, to those dreams Maha-Vishnu is having, where HE provides the ethereal and biological vessels that give the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee’s dreaming condition, their counterfeit forms. The difference is Krishna, the creator of the universe and the cause of all causes, is always no different from His many expansions such as Maha-Vishnu and is not affected in any way by His dreaming Maha-Vishnu expansion, where as the minute marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s are very much effected and becomes ‘consciously’ forgetful of their atma-vigraha perpetual marginal body, when their secondary consciousness is transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud (the impermanent universal creation of the dreaming or material universe) when they choose to imagine, think, dream or desire an existence without Krishna.

This secondary dreaming consciousness manifests from ones atma-vigraha body and finds refuge in the secondary creation (mahat-tattva). When ones secondary consciousness becomes fed up of being restricted and contained by ethereal and biological vessels, which belong to the mahat-tattva, the life force (jiva-sakti) can then enter the third (impersonal Brahmajyoti) stage of conscious projection created ultimately by Lord Krishna. What is happening here are the marginal living entities that radiate from Krishna’s perpetual body have all the traits of Krishna’s body, including a perpetual body of their own however all marginal vigraha devotee’s are the same in quality but not quantity. Krishna’s Supreme beautiful Vigraha body is compared to the Sun and the marginal vigraha devotee’s are compared to the sunrays, all originate from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky as the expansion of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s life force or Supreme s’akti. This s’akti of marginal devotees surrounding Krishna, sometimes manifest a secondary aspect of their being that enters the mahat-tattva, the marginal life force or s’akti can then manifest the third aspect of their being which is what we know as the collective Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

In other words the effulgence emanating from Krishna changes (yet as a paradox does not change on the bodily level due to eternal Goloka time) from personal to conditioned to Impersonal by radiating or transmitting a secondary consciousness that becomes conditioned in the mahat-tattva, and then can become further condition and appear as an individual atomic spark or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, Brahma-sayujya or tatastha. ALL are the result of a projection of consciousness originating from ones rasa nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka. All this happens without the original vigraha body ever changing due to the perpetual nature of time and space in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. A crude example is just like when one dreams off in a far distant place, their body is still always there, similarly, the transcendental minute marginal living entities (vigraha devotee’s) secondary expansion life force (jiva-s’akti) is projected off as a dreaming consciousness to the far distant mahat-tattva cloud in the outlying corners of the Spiritual Sky known as the mahat-tattva or cloud of the dreaming, or may eventually manifest as an inactive or dormant sparks of individual consciousness that makes up the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, Brahma-sayujya or tatastha s’akti that separates the Vaikuntha realm in the Spiritual Sky from the mahat-tattva cloud. This space in-between the imperishable Vaikunthas and the perishable mahat-tattva, is created by the marginal vigraha devotees’ secondary conscious manifestation which is a transformation of Krishnas marginal effulgence emanating/surrounding His Transcendental Vigraha body.

For this reason, the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha-s’akti and Brahma-sayujya is nothing other than a secondary consciousness manifesting that manifests as a dormant state of the marginal consciousness that places them neither in the mahat-tattva in counterfeit bodies, or having the spiritual vision and awareness to realize that their present consciousness in the mahat-tattva or Impersonal Brahmajyoti is actually a dream emanating from who they really eternally are in Goloka.

The difference is Krishna and His marginal vigraha devotees, is Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the creator of the universe and the cause of all causes and His marginal vigraha devotee’s, is Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, always no different from His many expansions such as Maha-Vishnu, where as the minute marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s can be ‘sub-consciously’ separated from their atma-vigraha perpetual marginal body when they choose to imagine, think, dream, desire, or even have no dreams at all, to subsist in an existence without Krishna.

The expansion of Krishna (technically via His plenary expansion Balarama known as the sleeping Maha-Vishnu) and the extended consciousness of the atma-vigraha devotee’s, are in a dreaming phenomena that manifests as a dark cloud within the Spiritual Sky called the ‘cloud of the dreaming’ or mahat-tattva.

The secondary consciousness is therefore generated from the perpetual jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s in Golokaand only comes into existence when ones focus is not on <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. This secondary conscious obviously originates also within the Goloka realm, but cannot exist or remain in that realm because the Spiritual Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikunthas are 100% <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious. Just like darkness cannot exist where there is light, non-Krishna conscious dreams, thoughts and desire cannot remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky. Those dreams are therefore transferred to the perishable mahat-tattva.

In this way it is very clear that the jiva-bhutah consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) originates outside of the mahat-tattva and is transmitted into the mahat-tattva from one perpetual body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that is 3/4 of the creation because of those non-Krishna conscious thoughts or dreams. Such secondary consciousness or lower self is known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness, among other ‘jiva names’ according to the condition ones transmitted consciousness is in outside of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

The jiva-bhutah (the lower self) consciousness (jiva-soul or life force) is neither ethereal, biological or material because it is an extention of ones spiritual constitution or nitya-siddha vigraha body however, when the lower conscious version of the self of ones life force or jiva-sakti condition of consciousness (nitya–baddha) enters the mahat-tattva, it becomes contained and confined to an ethereal vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of beginning its journey in the dreams of Maha-Vishnu to satisfy material desires, dreams and thoughts without Krishna being in the centre.

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe only 1/4 of creation), that dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s). Due to their desire not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation.

 

 

No One’s Perpetual Devotional body Falls from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that is not possible?

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually No one falls from Vaikuntha, We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation due to our sub-conscious dreaming that transports us to a far away place without <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>”.

This dreamingsecondary conscious condition emanating from the sub-conscious mind of the atma-vigraha devotee is a conscious force (jiva-s’akti) that becomes embodied within the mahat-tattva. In our original situation, we were with Krishna and our authentic bodily self never leaves <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, even if we ‘sub-consciously’ may wonder a far.

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as because of the attachment to pursue our no-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the centre instead of Krishna.

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devis’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary. This will be clearly explained in this book.

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[Vigraha]

 

 

The secondary creation (mahat-tattva or material creation) is a phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the vigraha (perpetual bodily form) devotees in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha when they choose to ignore Krishna and sub-consciously enter His dreams within that Maha-tattva cloud.

 

 

 

The dark cloud for the dreaming in the Spiritual Sky is entering the dreams of Maha Vishnu, Entering the ‘black or material universe’ as a secondary life force (jiva-tattva) simultaneously disqualifies one of being aware of their eternal Krishna Conscious rasa body (the authentic self) that is the source of the jiva-sakti consciousness or life force dream state. Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the atma-vigraha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vishnavas (devotee’s of Krishna) in the past, yet correctly understood by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The atma-vigraha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form, OR the so-called marginal sparks that are ALL constitutionally perpetual personal bodily forms (marginal vigraha devotee’s) ARE the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Vigraha body from whence His entire marginal vigraha devotee’s initiate. However the second-rate extended conscious phenomena, which radiates as a dreaming life force (jiva-sakti), is transferred out of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that takes up residence in the mahat-tattva (material universes). Ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts emanates as a secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) from the atma-vigraha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form that never leaves Goloka.

[Guruvani]

It's quite amuzing that the author of this topic cannot produce any shastric evidence.

All he has is some conversational statements of Srila Prabhupada as he is preaching to some neophyte devotees.

 

Prabhupada sais this, Prabhupada said that.................

Prabhupada said........Prabhupada said...........

Prabhupada said.......................

 

Well, if what Prabhupada said cannot be shown in shastric verse, then what Prabhupada said cannot really be used in a proper discussion or debate in a Vaishnava circle, because legitimate debate must have a shastric basis.

 

Prabhpada has said things on both sides of the argument.

 

Therefore, if he has spoken things that support both sides of the argument, we must take the side that can actually be supported in shastra.

 

The fall from Goloka theory cannot be supported in shastra but only on the basis of "Prabhupada said".

The no-fall theory can be supported with statements of Srila Prabhupada and also in his books and in shastra.

 

Therefore, the no-fall theory has more shastric support than the fall-from-goloka theory which has only a little support in "prabhupada said", but not in shastric reference.

 

Therefore the fall-from-goloka theory is based exclusively on "Prabhupada said" and not on shastra.

 

So, the fall-from-goloka theory cannot be accepted because it is not supported in shastra.

[Devarsirat]

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur also writes "from memory, because i havnt got the book anymore" that the suffering of the jiva in the material world has to be real, so that his calling for mercy is real, so that Krishna can give His real mercy, which otherwise would not be possible it it was enactedor pretended.

 

He also writes that giving that this type of mercy is not possible in the spiritual world, because there is no such suffering. A similar reason why Krishna fights demons in the material world, because there are non in the spiritual world.

 

He states that the suffering has to be real, so that His union with the jiva is also real so that Krishna can enjoy the happiness of experiencing the joy of being together again.

 

So if the suffering has to be real for The Lords mercy to be real, then there is no question of acting or dreaming on the site of the soul or Krishna.

[Guruvani]

From the books:

Sri Isopanisad, mantra 17 purport.

 

 

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. The desire for lordship is the material disease of the living being, for under the spell of sense enjoyment he transmigrates through the various bodies manifested in the material world. Becoming one with the brahmajyoti does not represent mature knowledge. Only by surrendering unto the Lord completely and developing one's sense of spiritual service does one reach the highest perfectional stage

 

Prabhupada explains that sometimes these living entities in the BRAHMAJYOTI desire to enjoy the senses, so, the Lord gives them a position in the material world to enjoy their senses as false Lords.

 

He doesn't say that they fell from Goloka.

 

He says that from the BRAHMAJYOTI, these living entity desires to enjoy the senses.

[Devarsirat]

Who is your siksa guru Vigraha Prabhu?

Do you have one?

 

In the maintime is not importand I think to believe either this or the other, because the main thing is to develope love for Radha and Krishna.

 

I dont think to go back to The Lord is dependend on which version we believe in, since even Srila Prabhupada preached both, in the same time it is important to have the proper conclusion of sastra. For this reason we have to understand that the non sastra version is mentioned in Srila Prabhupadas individual talks to others and that in His books He makes no such statements.

 

In His books He says the opposite and states the Final conclusion.

 

I think the not supported version was sometimes being told by Srila Prabhupada, to make it easier for those who come from strong christian backgrounds, like a mother who tells that baby has come from a storch who has picked it up from a pond, but the mother does not expect the child to continue believing this as a grown up.

 

It would be nice to believe that we have had a realationship in servitude with Krishna, but the mere idea of falling from that position or dreaming the material existence is totally unatractive and makes no sense.

 

In fact for me to believe this would give me daubt about Goloka or Vaikuntha and it seems that it may be useful for some time in the beginning stages of spiritual life, especially because sastra may conflict with ones christian ideas, but as soon as one developes taste and attachment and knowledge about Krishna one should realise the truth of things.

[theist]

 

It would be nice to believe that we have had a realationship in servitude with Krishna, but the mere idea of falling from that position or dreaming the material existence is totally unatractive and makes no sense.

 

 

Rather we are dreaming from Goloka or the Bramn effulgrnce is a debate for others than myself, but in either case the jiva is surely freaming. Of that there is no controversy.

[Guruvani]

Material existence is not some dream that the soul made up in his mind while he was sleeping on Goloka.

 

Material existence is caused when the marginal jivas are exposed to maya and then desire to enjoy her.

 

In Goloka there is no existence of Maya and no chance of being exposed to her.

 

As Devarsirat said in his last post, I too agree that the fall from Goloka theory would actually seriously hurt my faith in Krishna as the protector of his devotees.

The fall from Goloka theory also takes the perfect, supreme spiritual paradise and turns it into an imperfect, fallible place where living entities are falling down by the zillions to become worms in stool.

 

I think it is a preposterous claim.

 

I understand the logic of Srila Prabhupada to try and fend off impersonalist tendencies of neophyte devotees and tell them some fairytale about having previoulsy been with Krishna in Goloka.

 

I accept that we were previously with Krishna in Goloka.

But, we were sparks in the effulgence of Krishna and not personal devotees.

 

If indeed we were "with Krishna previously" that would have been as sparks of his effulgence. As the Lord expands in the the Purusha avatars, then his effeulgence goes with him.

 

The fairytale of the fall from Goloka conception was in support of the "Krishna conciousness is not an artificial imposition on the mind" principle.

 

But, that is only because neophytes haven't been able to understand the full shastric explanations of the origins of the soul.

 

To say that we were "with Krishna" previously is not the same as saying that we were nitya-siddhas fully engaged in devotional service to Krishna and then gave that up and fell down to become worms in stool or microbes evolving for billions of years to get to the human form.

 

It's a long stretch to being "with Krishna" and being perfected souls fully engaged in pure bhakti to fall down to material existence.

 

The sparks of the effulgence of Krishna in Vrindavan are "with Krishna" now.

But, maybe in some future time many of these sparks will be sparks of his expansions into the Purusha avatars and themselves end up in the material world like us.

 

Sure, you can call it speculation, but Krishna always has an effuglence and that effuglence is always composed of infinite finite jivas who are "with Krishna" as we speak.

 

They enjoy eternal bliss and knowledge in that condition, as they are not covered by maya. But, being finite spiritual sparks that don't have proper devotional service, then they too can fall down from that position if they get exposed to maya if the Lord in the form of Karanadaksayi Vishna impregnates them into the Mahat-tattva to be exposed to Maya devi.

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

We see above that 3/4 of creation is the Goloka-Vrndavan/Vaikutha realm and 1 /4 is the material or maha-tattva creation, in other words 1/4 of the nitya-siddhas have chosen to activate their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness or dreaming life force (jiva-sakti) and enter the impermanent dreams of Maha-Vishnu in a sub-conscious dreaming state due to their non-Krishna conscious desires.

It is therefore clear that 1 /4 of the marginal vigrahas do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud which numbers are enormous yet only 1/4 choose to make that conscious plunge as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us as shown in the painting above.

 

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of Krishna’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

 

 

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

 

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

 

 

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode. This Krishna Conscious Vigraha self is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are ‘consciously’ unaware of that unending reality. This is due to our forgetfulness and dreaming non-Krishna conscious fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary), that transmits ‘the self interested thoughts one wants created’, to the the mahat-tattva (material universe).

 

 

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

 

 

 

 

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

 

 

 

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

 

 

 

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

 

 

 

 

 

The nitya-siddhas vigrahas and their secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, (when the latter is activated), are both the divided (Personal and Impersonal) marginal emanations perpetually surrounding Krishnas Vigraha form that makes Krishna the complete whole or the entire creation.

 

 

 

 

"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Supreme Lord has two energies, material (mahat-tattva cloud) and spiritual (the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm where Krishna and His marginal nitya-siddha devotees serve). The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, ones consciousness may be under the spell of the inanimate material energy (the mahat-tattva) under the control of Maha-Vishnu and Maha-Maya or the devotional Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky under the control of Krishnas internal Yoga-Maya.

 

 

 

 

 

 

"The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter (ethereal and biological bodies), and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature (atma-vigraha perpetual self). Therefore, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

 

 

 

"The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and because he has this tendency, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, marginal energy is not a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the nature of the jiva-atma-vigraha. It refers to a living being with the character of independently choosing between Krishnas two Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva. Therefore, the living beings do not expand from their jiva-tatastha aspect of marginal consciousness. This marginal energy (niya-siddha’s higher and nitya baddha lower expression of consciousness) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living beings.

 

 

 

If marginal beings (the living entity with its independent nature, original rasa body and the ability to extend its life force jiva-sakti sub-consciously out of that rasa body) choose to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

 

 

 

If the marginal living beings as their secondary conscious extention that finds shelter in the mahat-tattva, eventually chooses, after many, many births in the mahat-tattva, decides to go back home, back to Godhead (Goloka), on return, one will still find they have their marginal independence even as their full potential perpetual nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body. Returning back to Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha does not change ones individual marginal position into internal energy (cit-sakti) and become Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha. Although the nitya-siddhas are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual or a place where nothing other than living vigrahas exist serving Krishna the Supreme Vigraha), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha marginal devotees do not turn into Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha (cit-sakti), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

 

 

 

Marginal nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees can choose to live seperatly (in the sub-conscious extended life force jiva-sakti called the nitya-baddha conscious extention) from the nitya-siddha body they really are serving Krishna and enter into a dreaming sub-conscious lower self nitya-baddha condition that can only exist within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the maha-tattva.. Ones awareness of their surroundings can be situated either in the external mahat-tattva as their non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha consciousness, or remain in the internal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Kingdom of God as their full conscious nitya-siddha bodily self.

 

 

 

One can choose to be as their Krishna Conscious perpetual body or float away to the mahat-tattva in non-Krishna conscious dreams as their nitya-baddha jiva-sakti consciousness. In this way, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal consciousness can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal consciousness (because of ones free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal consciousness therefore those who believe they cannot fall ‘consciously’ from Vaikuntha are deluding themselves and misleading their followers.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Rather we are dreaming from Goloka or the Bramn effulgrnce is a debate for others than myself, but in either case the jiva is surely freaming. Of that there is no controversy.

 

mahavisnu may be dreaming, but the jiva does not, this world is very real, about that there is no controversy

[Guest guest]

why is he using a picture to explain his point, surely there is more to it then just a picture. Even so the picture is nice, the reality of the Truths it tries to convey is surely beyond our conception?

 

I think english words are utterly useless and unqualified to describe the Truth as it is, there is such a shortage of expression and so Srila Prabhupada had to do what He could within the limiting confines of the english language.

 

That is why it is absolutely important to find a genuine spiritual master to continue helping us to understand even the purports and books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

We should not try to do this ourselfes, this is where a big mistake lies, if we understand that we are neophite and kanistha, then what?

 

Should we think that we fully understand Srila Prabhupada, just by reading His books? what about so many questions we may have? who is answering, another conditioned soul?

 

Should we not ask therefore? but the siksa guru has to be properly situated, not like us being in maya half the time.

[theist]

 

mahavisnu may be dreaming, but the jiva does not, this world is very real, about that there is no controversy

Absolute nonsense. Sorry to be so blunt but please do some homework.

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/443183-exactly-same-dream.html

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna

 

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga!

 

Since we experience the "dream" of material existance in a very real way, I highly doubt the reality of our situation to be as if we just nodded off in the midst of a picnic with Lord Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana, then spend a VERY REAL NEAR ETERNITY in hellish ignorance, then the torture of Kanistha sadhana, and only then begin to feel again the mercy and Love of Krsna. And then countless lifetimes of Sankirtana service later we do what.... Suddenly wake up from our 1 second nap and throw a Ladu to Balarama?

 

Methinks the nitya-baddha Jiva was last seen as a spark of the Lords effulgence, getting Darshan of the Lord in some way or another, in either Vaikuntha or Goloka, and that was the first and last thing they saw of the Spiritual Sky. Because from the most extremely neutral position of Santa Rasa, they looked once over at the material sky and that was Lord Visnu's glace impregnating them into Maya's domain in order to at some future time rescue the jiva in such a way as to inspire eternal servitude, and the return to the spriitual world as a personal servitor is arranged. No more fall downs, just expeditions to the material world for service and expansion of relationship.

 

Sorry, no references, but this is my conception after reading all I could of the references already cited on this debate. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

ys.

 

Jiva das

[Guruvani]

The entire spiritual sky is illuminated by the brahmajyoti which is composed of unlimited spiritual sparks just like the sparks of consciousness that are populating the Maha-tattva.

These sparks of conciousness that are part of the brahmajyoti have eternally been sparks of the light consciousness that illuminates the spiritual worlds.

So, they are just that.

Sparks of consciousness in the spiritual sky and they have been so eternally.

They don't have a spiritual form to serve Krishna in one of the loving relationships we know as rasa.

What makes us better than them?

Why do we have a spiritual form in the spiritual world that we are just forgetting because we are "dreaming" in ignorance as we are snoozing under a tree in Vrindavan on the banks of the Yamuna?

 

It is a fact there there are unlimited spiritual sparks in the spiritual sky that are part of the brahmajyoti that illuminates the spiritual sky.

They don't have forms or relationships with Krishna.

They have eternally been sparks of light in the spiritual sky.

 

Why are the jivas of the material world any better than the sparks of consciousness that have been sparks of consciousness eternally in the spiritual world.

 

They have never fallen down. They have been sparks of light in the spiritual world eternally.

 

Why is it that the baddha-jivas of the material world are supposed to already have forms waiting for them in the spiritual world, when the entire spiritual world is filled with unlimited jiva souls who exist as sparks of light in the brahmajyoti with out any form like Krishna's or Radha's?

 

Not every spark of consciousness has a form in the spiritual world.

There are unlimited spirit sparks that don't have a from and simply exist as particles of light in the brahmajyoti that illuminates the spiritual world.

 

So, to say that every jiva has fallen down from Goloka and forgot his spiritual body and forgot his relationship with Krishna is not consistent with the fact the the spiritual world contains unlimited spirit sparks in the brahmajyoti that illuminates the spiritual world.

 

Goloka is illuminated by the effuglence of Krishna.

That effulgence of Krishna contains unlimited spirit sparks that don't have a form or a rasa with Krishna.

Why are we so special?

 

(clue: we aren't)

[Guruvani]

To say that the soul has a BAD DREAM while he is sleeping in Goloka is saying two things:

(1) The sleeping in Goloka is in the mode of ignorance.

(2) The devotees in Goloka are prone to falling into the mode of ignorance and having bad dreams.

 

 

Unfortunately, the theory is wrong because the mode of ignorance does not exist in the spiritual world.

 

 

If there is no ignorance in the spiritual world, then there can be no bad dreams or selfish desires.

Dreaming takes place in the material mind.

The pure devotees don't have any mind that is capable of having a BAD DREAM.

It's really pathetic that anyone is saying so.

 

Why would a millionaire living in a mansion in a tropical paradise dream of becoming a poverty ridden homeless person living in the ghetto?

 

The devotees of Krishna know they have the supreme bliss and the supreme perfection.

They don't get jealous of Krishna because in the supremely exotic and erotic spiritual land of Vrindavan everyone get's all their desires fulfilled by Lord Govinda.

Nobody get's left out in Vrindavan.

There are no unfullfilled desires there.

Everyone is supremely happy and they certainly have no desire to compete with Krishna for Lordship.

There is no need to.

Krishna is supremely generous to his devotees.

 

In the purifying presence of Lord Krishna, no selfish desire is possible.

[theist]

An essential point you folks are missing is that since there is no past or present in the Spiritual Sky there is no loss or even notice or the so-called fall. It is not that there are sleeping people laying around in Goloka for god's sake. You are arguing against a point no one is even making.

 

A dream has it's reality as a dream, but it still is a dream, a real dream. But there is no way something that has a beginning and an ending to it's existence is anything but a dream, a mirage, an illusion.

 

Anyway...dream on.

[Guruvani]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 3.16.29

 

bhagavān anugāv āha

yātaḿ mā bhaiṣṭam astu śam

brahma-tejaḥ samartho 'pi

hantuḿ necche mataḿ tu me

 

SYNONYMS

bhagavān — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; anugau — to His two attendants; āha — said; yātam — depart from this place; mā — let there not be; bhaiṣṭam — fear; astu — let there be; śam — happiness; brahma — of a brāhmaṇa; tejaḥ — the curse; samarthaḥ — being able; api — even; hantum — to nullify; na icche — do not desire; matam — approved; tu — on the contrary; me — by Me.

 

TRANSLATION

The Lord then said to His attendants, Jaya and Vijaya: Depart this place, but fear not. All glories unto you. Though I am capable of nullifying the brāhmaṇas' curse, I would not do so. On the contrary, it has My approval.

 

PURPORT

As explained in connection with text 26, all the incidents that took place had the approval of the Lord. Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuṇṭha after once taking birth there. All these incidents, therefore, were designed by the Lord Himself for the sake of His pastimes in the material world. Thus He plainly says that it was done with His approval. Otherwise, it would have been impossible for inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha to come back to this material world simply because of a brahminical curse. The Lord especially blesses the so-called culprits: "All glories unto you." A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident.

 

Note:

In this purport it is clearly stated that having once taken birth in the spiritual world (getting a body there) no one can come back to the material world.

 

In this purport we also find that "A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down."

 

What part of "CAN NEVER FALL DOWN" is it that the fall-from-goloka idiots not understand?

 

The moral of the story is that the occasion of a devotee coming from Vaikuntha to the material world is for the pastimes of the Lord.

 

That would be like Jaya, Vijaya and myself. (kidding about myself, I am one of you worms in stool)

 

The rest of you fall-from-goloka blasphemers of Krishna most definitely did not come here to assist the Lord in his pastimes.

 

So, you never had a spiritual body in Goloka. You were just a itty-bitty spiritual spark of light than got exposed to Maya devi and got all hot and bothered - thus taking birth in the material world.

 

Once you take birth in Goloka, you will never comeback to this toilet we call the material world.

[Guest guest]

 

Note:

In this purport it is clearly stated that having once taken birth in the spiritual world (getting a body there) no one can come back to the material world.

 

In this purport we also find that "A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down."

 

What part of "CAN NEVER FALL DOWN" is it that the fall-from-goloka idiots not understand?

 

This is the theory that the souls who have once fallen, then returned, are in a more secure position than the souls that have not (yet) fallen.

 

I hope Srimati Radharani has already fallen and returned, as it would really put a damper on the nitya-lila if she had one of these maya-dreams and fell down.

[Guruvani]

 

This is the theory that the souls who have once fallen, then returned, are in a more secure position than the souls that have not (yet) fallen.

 

I hope Srimati Radharani has already fallen and returned, as it would really put a damper on the nitya-lila if she had one of these maya-dreams and fell down.

 

Don't make me laugh!

I have a double hernia and it hurts when I laugh.

 

OK, I get it now.

We can only falldown once and then when we get back to goloka we have learned our lesson and we never get jealous of Krishna again and want our own flock of gopis.

 

So, we just join the gopis and become one of them because we can never be like Krishna and have our own groupies to sport in the bowers of Vrindavan with?

 

Now, I understand.

 

Can you please show me the "only falldown once" reference in shastra.

 

How about the actual statements of Srila Prabhupada that having once taken birth in the spiritual world one can never falldown?

 

The fall-from-goloka theorists are blasphemers of Krishna.

That is why I hate them so much.

 

They blaspheme Krishna and call him a liar when he says he always protects his pure devotees.

 

The fall from Goloka theorists actually hate Krishna.

They accuse him of all sorts of terrible neglect of his devotees.

 

It's very sad that these people have such a low opinion of Lord Krishna, that he would let his pure devotees fall down to become worms in stool.

[Guest guest]

 

 

The fall-from-goloka theorists are blasphemers of Krishna.

That is why I hate them so much.

 

They blaspheme Krishna and call him a liar when he says he always protects his pure devotees.

 

Srila BR Sridhar Maharaj liked to say Krishna was Autocrat, Despot and Liar. Are you saying Srila Sridhar Maharaj was wrong?

[Guruvani]

 

Srila BR Sridhar Maharaj liked to say Krishna was Autocrat, Despot and Liar. Are you saying Srila Sridhar Maharaj was wrong?

 

That's a little bit too far into Mahabhava for me.

The actual lovers of Krishna can call him a liar, but if a mortal soul calls Krishna a liar, then he is doomed.

 

Krishna lies when it gives pleasure to his devotees, not when it makes them confused.

 

Maybe Krishna is a liar, but Srila Prabhupada was not and in his purports he said that Krishna will never let his devotees down.

 

Krishna's lies are more truth than what we call truth in the material world.

 

Krishna's lies are so much pleasure for the devotees that it cannot be described.

 

The shastra does not lie.

 

Krishna lies when he is having too much fun.

 

So, we can trust the acharyas even if we can't trust Krishna.

 

that is my opinion............

 

Radharani is not a liar.

She would never let a devotee fall down.

 

When Krishna let's us down, then Radharani is there to take up the slack.

 

Radharani certainly never allows any of her maidservants to fall down to become a worm in stool.

 

She controls Krishna.

Thank God for that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[muralidhar_das]

 

 

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This picture is not a totally accurate representation of the Reality of the Spiritual Universe. It is a two dimensional representation of the Ultimate Reality that was painted to give a general understanding of the Spiritual World.

 

However, if you were to argue that this is indeed the full reality, the question arises that in this picture you see lots of light and blue "sky" between the golden globes that Visnu deities are within. In fact in this picture perhaps 20% of the area is taken up with this golden and blue sky, which of course is a representation of the brahma-jyoti.

 

According to this statement of Bhagavata, there are more souls in sayujua-mukti than who are engaged in Bhakti:

 

Quote:

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muktānām api siddhānāḿ nārāyaṇa-parāyaṇaḥ

sudurlabhaḥ praśāntātmā koṭiṣv api mahā-mune

TRANSLATION

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Nārāyaṇa, or Kṛṣṇa. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare.

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This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees).

 

I appreciate you are trying to remain faithful to what you perceive is the actual teaching of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

 

But before Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada no acharya ever said that souls in Goloka (nitya siddha souls) fall down into maya and become nitya-baddha souls (eternally bonded in Maya). Moreover I have never seen a statement anywhere in the scriptures saying that souls in Goloka have dreams about the material world. It would be more of a nightmare than a dream, in my opinion. There are 8,400,000 species and most of the time we spend in the material world would be in the bodies of such things as oysters, crabs, bacteria and donkeys. Living a life as a donkey or a camel would hardly be a "dream life" for someone who is normally living in Goloka and having a little nap.

 

You may think that the statements of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada saying the jivas fell from Goloka or Vaikuntha are perfectly true. But since there is nothing in the Vedas to support this notion you should respectfully accept that other people have a right to follow the established teachings of the Goswamis, Bhaktivinoda, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur and other acharyas who agree with this statement of Yudhisthira Maharaj in Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

 

 

SB 7.1.34: Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired: What kind of great curse could affect even liberated viṣṇu-bhaktas, and what sort of person could curse even the Lord's associates? For unflinching devotees of the Lord to fall again to this material world is impossible. I cannot believe this.

 

SB 7.1.35: The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.

[Guruvani]

but, before anyone goes to accuse Srila Prabhupada of saying that the parshadas of Krishna fall down to material existence, I would like them to please post the quote.

 

I don't expect a reply.

 

Because Srila Prabhupada never said any such thing.

Anyone who accuses Srila Prabhupada of saying such a thing is simply a victim of their own mind.

 

Srila Prabhupada never once said that any associate of Krishna in his pastimes has fallen down to material existence.

 

Please don't accuse Srila Prabhupada of saying things he did not say.

 

Please post your quotes where Srila Prabhupada said that a pure devotee of Krishna gave up his spiritual body to be born into material existence.

 

Such statements don't exist.

 

Please show me.

I have never seen anything that proves that Srila Prabhupada said that pure devotees have fallen down to become worms in stool or microbic life.

 

Again, my challenge is "PUT UP OR SHUT UP" about accusing Srila Prabhupada of preaching apasiddhanta.

 

It is just plain evil to accuse Srila Prabhupada of such transgressions of siddhanta.

 

He was sly and he was sharp, but he was never a liar.

 

there are those out there who would be glad to prove that Srila Prabhupada preached apasiddhanta, but they are simply very unfortunate and very confused about the teachings and the mission of Srila Prabhupada A.C. Bhaktivedanta.

 

Put away your bias and prejudice and read Srila Prabhupada with a objective mind.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that we were previously "with Krishna".

 

There is a quantum leap from that to saying that the parshadas of Krishna fall down to become worms in stool.

 

Srila Prabhupada has been preaching in the cosmos since time eternal.

 

He is not some amateur preacher that has some personal agenda.

 

Srila Prabhupada is amongst the most ancient of souls who have been assisting the Lord in delivering fallen souls from the material existance.

 

He is not some sadhaka trying to attain liberation.