muralidhar_das Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 <table> <tbody><tr><td>Canto 7: The Science of God</td><td class="m">Chapter 1: The Supreme Lord Is Equal to Everyone </td></tr></tbody> </table> Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.1.35 dehendriyāsu-hīnānāḿ vaikuṇṭha-pura-vāsinām deha-sambandha-sambaddham etad ākhyātum arhasi SYNONYMS deha — of a material body; indriya — material senses; asu — life breath; hīnānām — of those devoid; vaikuṇṭha-pura — of Vaikuṇṭha; vāsinām — of the residents; deha-sambandha — in a material body; sambaddham — bondage; etat — this; ākhyātum arhasi — please describe. TRANSLATION The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons. PURPORT This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Nārada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired from him, saying, etad ākhyātum arhasi: "only you can explain the reason." From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha. Of course, a living entity who desires sāyujya-mukti remains in Kṛṣṇa's Brahman effulgence, which is dependent on Kṛṣṇa's body (brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham [Bg. 14.27]). Such an impersonalist who takes shelter of the Brahman effulgence must surely fall down. This is stated in the śāstra (Bhāg. 10.2.32): ye 'nye 'ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraḿ padaḿ tataḥ patanty adho 'nādṛta-yuṣmad-ańghrayaḥ "O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet." The impersonalists cannot reach the Vaikuṇṭha planets to become associates of the Lord, and therefore, according to their desires, Kṛṣṇa gives them sāyujya-mukti. However, since sāyujya-mukti is partial mukti, they must fall again to this material world. When it is said that the individual soul falls from Brahmaloka, this applies to the impersonalist. From authoritative sources it is learned that Jaya and Vijaya were sent to this material world to fulfill the Lord's desire to fight. The Lord also sometimes wants to fight, but who can fight with the Lord but a very confidential devotee of the Lord? Jaya and Vijaya descended to this world to fulfill the Lord's desire. Therefore in each of their three births — first as Hiraṇyākṣa and Hiraṇyakaśipu, second as Rāvaṇa and Kumbhakarṇa, and third as Śiśupāla and Dantavakra — the Lord personally killed them. In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight. Otherwise, as Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira says, aśraddheya ivābhāti: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuṇṭha seems unbelievable. How Jaya and Vijaya came to this material world is explained by Nārada Muni as follows. ------------- KB, the bottom line for me is that Srila Prabhupada taught that nobody would leave Krishna if they ever saw him, because Krishna is incomparably beautiful and loving. Nobody even wants to leave Goloka or Krishna, even when they are dreaming. What Srila Prabhupada said to Madhudvisa about the crow and tal, that was just some advice for Madhu so he should learn that he should not misuse his free will. So for guys like us, Prabhupada wanted to tell a warning story about the danger of misusing your free will. I see Madhudvisa every now and then and he has mellowed with age. I would even say I like him, nowadays. It was all so long ago, and we were all very young. Prabhupada had to focus on giving lessons for wild teenagers and what he taught was very suitable for us, considering the state we were in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devarsirat Posted May 6, 2007 Report Share Posted May 6, 2007 someone mentioned in one of the last posts, the word idiots and some other names. I feel uncomfortable to read this type of comment even if it is directed to those who have no proper understanding. I think it will have a negative effect, because even so those who come from a different angle of vision practice chanting and are followers of Srila Prabhupada. btw considering the present religious climate on the planet, like christians destroying ancient temples in india and so on , we should put all politics and differences unto a slow burner in oder to further devotee union for the sake of bringing about the golden age. In fact these discussion can be picked up again in the future, right now we need to become extremly strong, there are sinister forces everywhere, which are against dharma and who will do anything to destroy it. We need to get our act together and unite and preach lord Caitanyas mission 24/7. We must stop arguing about any of these subjects and then one day we will all understand. This is true and a fact, the christians advance in numbers, the moslems advance in numbers and we will have a huge job to defend what we beliefe in. Those fundamentalist christian and moslem sects are a great danger to vaisnava dharma and we have to put all our differences aside for afuture time to discuss. They want us to fight, even about small matters. The reality is that we are all together Iskcon, the international society for Krishna Consciousness, no matter which camp we take shelter in,that is real understanding of what is vaisnava society. This understanding has to be accepted and promoted everywhere. we are all brothers and sisters serving and loving the same Supreme Personality Of Godhead Lord Krishna, as such we have to put aside our problems and little quarrels for now. Read this The Threat Against Hindu Temples and Vedic Culture in India This article shows how the Indian government is purposely jeopardizing the future of Hindu temples. With a little attention, anyone can see how Hindu institutions and Hinduism in India are unfairly targeted by a combination of Christian and Muslim Fundamentalists, vote bank politics and unscrupulous politicians and businessmen. Particularly alarming is the destruction of Hindu institutions and illegal mass conversions by other religions. Through the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowment Act, Hindu temples and Maths are taken over by state Governments in the name of better administration, while mosques and churches are completely autonomous. This Act allowed the state governments and politicians complete control over the temples and their property. Many abuses are committed by multiple state governments using the power accorded through this Act. In Andhra Pradesh under Chief Minister Y. Samuel Rajasekar Reddy, tens of thousands of acres of temple lands are sold away leaving temples with little economic basis. This is done without the permission of the local Hindu community. The state government and the endowments department whose duty is to safeguard the temple properties have turned a blind eye to such encroachments on temple properties. The state government recently went to the extent of regularizing encroachments at nominal prices. These encroachments are often found to be closely associated to various political parties. In Andhra Pradesh, Hindu temples, institutions and Hinduism itself are illegally targeted by the crusade of the government. Under the Temple Empowerment Act, about 34,000 temples are under government control. Only 18% of the revenue of these temples is said to be given back for temple purposes, while the remaining 82% is used for other things by the government at their discretion. Such looting, massive sale of temple lands, demolition of temples, encroachments of temple properties, and the utilization of aggressive religious conversion tactics by Christians in the vicinity of temples is occurring all over Andhra Pradesh. The government, which is supposed to be a protector has become a destroyer of the culture, which threatens the very existence of Hindu institutions. Even the world famous sacred temple at Tirumala-Tirupati is not spared. The government attempted to take over 5 out of 7 Tirumala hills for churches and tourism. The 1000 pillar Mantapam in Tirumala was illegally demolished. Recently in response to Sri Chinnajeeyar Swami's petition, the Andhra Pradesh High Court has declared the demolition illegal and instructed the TTD management at Tirupati to reconstruct it. If anyone has seen the Tirupati temple and the difference there is without the 1000 pillar hall, it is shocking. The Andhra Pradesh government also allowed the demolition of at least 10 temples for the construction of a golf course. The son of the Chief Minister even blew up the Sunkulamma Hindu Temple in Anantapur, and his brother Vivekananda Reddy, by constructing his own building, has encroached on Gurukula trust lands worth crores of rupees. While taking extra precautions to protect churches and mosques with money from the state treasury, the government has been selling or donating, for various government schemes and non-Hindu purposes, tens of thousands of acres of temple lands worth thousands of crores of rupees that are meant for the perpetual sustenance of the temples. This will irreparably cripple Hindu institutions. Temples and maths that did not earlier come under government supervision are taken into government control for selling away their lands. The charge that 85 percent of the revenues is taken by the state exchequer was not denied by the state government. The State Endowment Board with 77,000 employees, all of whom are supported by 15-18 percent of 33,000 temples' income, has done little for the welfare of the Hindu institutions. At the same time, priests of temples are penniless and temples are decaying due to lack of maintenance. Hindu priests do not want to train children in priestly activities for lack of economical basis. This seems to be the goal of the government to systematically wipe out Vedic culture in general across India. Even while this is going on, the AP government pays 12,000 rupees per pilgrim for the Haj trip to Mecca, and is considering proposals to pay Christians for trips to Bethlehem. At the same time, the government has imposed a 50% raise on the fares of state buses on MahaShivaratri day, like a tax that takes advantage of the Hindu community and makes it even more difficult for them to observe their own holidays. Furthermore, the most important Hindu holidays, such as RamaNavami, are being taken off the government holiday list to be replaced by secular holidays. The net result of this strategic and planned selling of all temple properties, along with taxing the Hindu community while providing funds for Christian purposes, seems to be designed to systematically and completely cripple Hindu institutions in the state with little hope for their survival. The Andhra Pradesh government Order 21 gave crores (tens of millions) of rupees for the renovation and construction of churches, thus, helping to pave the way for major Christianization of the state using illegal techniques for mass conversions. Almost all these activities are a violation of the Indian constitution that is supposed to separate the state and religion. The government also controls the media that ignore any Hindu representation. Even the rare newspapers like Eenadu that do represent the Hindu view of things are persecuted by unfair tax raids, and attempts to stop their Hindu devotional telecasts. They then use the secular news media to spread false claims of attacks on Christians by fundamentalist Hindus, and to defame popular Vedic saints who make great strides for the Dharmic cause. Their next step has been to convert movie stars to gain influential voices, and with large amounts of money buy the cooperation of politicians. Activities in other parts of India include providing provisions to the poor, as long as they convert to Christianity. I have also seen where hospitals provide free medical care, such as for women giving birth to babies, as long as they sign papers that say they convert to Christianity. Or new water wells established in a poor village, but in front of a church where the pastor makes sure no non-believers are allowed to draw water. Or large corporations hire people for upper management only if they are Christian. In these and other ways, the plan is to convert with goods and allurements. Other strategies include that Hindus and tribals are told that the worship of Vedic gods is actually the worship of the devil or Satan. Also create a fear in them of hell that can only be rectified by accepting Christianity, and tell them that they remain poor because they have not converted. The newly converted are asked to make other converts, and to destroy Vedic temples to prove their dedication to their new faith. These are all strategies that often involve trickery and lies that actually go against the real teachings of Jesus. In Karnataka, for example, in 2003, as reported by Sri Sri Ravi Shankar and in “India Today”, 79 crores ($790,000,000) was collected from about two lakh (200,000) temples. From that, temples received 7 crores ($70,000,000) given for their maintenance, Muslim Madrassas and Haj subsidy (for trip to Mecca) was given 59 crores, and churches about 13 crores. Twenty-five percent of the two lakh temples i.e., about 50,000 in Karnataka, will be closed down for lack of resources. In Kerala, funds from the Guruvayur temple are diverted to other government projects denying improvements to 45 Hindu temples. Land belonging to the Ayyappa temple (in Sabarimala) has been grabbed and church backed encroaches are occupying huge areas of forestland running into thousands of acres near Sabarimala. With a new Devaswom ordinance 1800 new temples are taken under government control. In this way, the looting of temple finances and properties continues unabated. It is said that this state alone has 29,000 Christian missionaries and clergy and 19,000 in Muslim counterparts whose main preoccupation is conversion of Hindus. Kerala is a precursor for the state of things to come for the Hindu community in India. With 56 percent Hindu population, it hardly controls 25 percent of the economy. In Maharashtra, the government recently declared to take over all the temples. This is a precursor to repeat the process already happening in Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Kerala. Articles 25 and 26 of the Indian Constitution guarantees public establishment and maintenance of religious institutions and to administer such property in accordance with law has been completely ignored toward Hindu foundations. While looting Hindu institutions, the Governments subsidizes the "Hajj" pilgrimage for the Muslims to the tune of Rs. 380 crores annually (including subsidy to airlines), and provides 1000 crores per year for the salary of Imams, and provides funds to churches. It is obvious that the current laws in the country are discriminatory towards Hindu religious institutions and it is important that Hindus demand that the government accord Hindu institutions the same status as Muslim and Christian institutions. The existence of the Hindu majority of India is being threatened in their own homeland. Selfish politicians are bent on destroying the Vedic Dharma and its culture that goes back thousands of years. Mahatma Gandhi who fought all of his life for social justice and religious tolerance called religious conversions by missionaries the deadliest poison that ever sapped the fountain of truth. Readers are requested not to merely stand by and hope that nothing will happen to Hindu Vedic Dharma. One thousand years of foreign rule has resulted in loss of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangla Desh, and the cultural loss of Kashmir. Today a half-million Kashmiri pandits are living as refuges in their own mother land for more than a decade and are dying in large numbers. There has also been the cultural loss of the four states of northeast India which were a Hindu majority as recently as 1948. Next in line for losing its traditional culture is Andhra Pradesh. Hindus who are complacent need to understand the consequences if the current situation continues. Missionaries with the help of leftists and crooked politicians, pseudo-secularists, working in a democracy with a highly corrupt political system, a culturally deprived intelligentsia, with billions of dollars and little scruples, have the potential to convert a majority of India=s population away from the culture of their homeland in just a few years. This, along with vote bank politics, can result in complete marginalization of Hindus and the division of India. In such a situation, those who do not convert will be at an enormous disadvantage economically and spiritually. Any Hindu or Dharmist who is more concerned with himself, his family and his own personal advancement over and above his contribution to his society and culture, only decreases the future well-being of them and its traditions, and reduces his own participation in securing a positive future for them. It is time for all Hindus and followers of Vedic culture to stand strong for Dharma and to unite and work together to preserve and protect their culture by consolidating their votes to remove those politicians who are not supportive of Vedic Dharma, and to bring in those who are. We must remove all superficial differences among the numerous Hindu organizations and realize that without a unified platform, all forms of discord will be taken advantage of by those who work against us and wish to see the demise of Vedic culture. This must never happen, and we can all work together to prevent it. Now is the time to work together more than ever. MORE INFORMATION For a complete report on the U. S. Government=s connection with and support for evangelistic organizations committed to conversion activities all over India, please see this article on Tehelka.com at: http://www.tehelka.com/story_main.asp?filename=ts013004shashi.asp&id=1 Articles on www.stephen-knapp.com that compliment the purpose of this report include: 1. AHindus Must Stand Strong for Dharma@, 2. ATime to Plan the Survival of Vedic Culture@, 3. AAn Action Plan for the Survival of Vedic Culture@, 4, ASave Your Culture@, 5. APreaching in India=s Northeast for Cultural Preservation@, 6. AMy Northeast India Mission in 2003-4@ Also see: www.christianaggression.org -- to keep up with events and plans of Christian aggression. www.crusadewatch.org -- latest news on the plans and attempts of Christian organizations to make the world Christian. Www.hinduministries.org/pointers.htm -- is a Christian site that provides training missionaries and Christians worldwide how to win the hearts of Hindus to Christ. Also: www.hinduministries.org/hindu_links.htm -- links for different approaches to win Hindus. This gives inights into the techniques that can be expected that Christians use to bring Hindus to Jesus. Many more sites like this can be found. [This article sent out through Stephen Knapp=s News List. Send an email to Srinandan@aol.com to join it.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Being popular has never been on my agenda. Trying to understand the truth about what Srila Prabhupada has actually taught is more important to me than being popular or well-liked. I am a loner. It's not very much fun to be a loner, but it is the fate that has befallen me. I get a little uptight when I hear people wrongly accusing Srila Prabhupada no matter how great they are or how many followers they have. The problem is not in what Srila Prabhupada has said, but in the way people interpret his teachings and the agenda they have in trying to prove him to be incorrect about the siddhanta. Did anyone fully understand Srila Prabhupada? I don't think that anyone can fully understand Srila Prabhupada. Not even the greatest among his Godbrothers. Not I nor anyone else can even begin to understand the greatness of Srila Prabhupada. His preaching was so far beyond us that we can only glimpse the deeper purpose of his teachings. Srila Prabhupada has been preaching in the material world since time eternal. He was not some rotten grhasta that was a junior disciple of Srila Saraswati Thakur. His preaching tactics were something that he had refined millions of years ago. He was not learning as he went along. He had it figured out millions of years ago. Did any Godbrother fully understand Srila Prabhupada? I don't think anyone has fully understood Srila Prabhupada. I certainly don't make such a claim. did the godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada make a complete study of the life and precepts of Srila Prabhupada? Not one of them has. Most of their opinions are drawn from hearsay and secondhand information. That is no way to understand Srila Prabhupada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 [WE ALL ORIGINATED FROM GOLOKA <U><?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p></U> The beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us that the perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by theimperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation. Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets; both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities or Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies where no material energy (Maha-Maya) can exist. The nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s (Krishna’s marginal potency) can never fall down as their bodily devotional self because of the perpetual uninterrupted nature of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is set in the eternal present beyond the concept of past and future.<?xml:namespace prefix = o /> In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe divided by past, present and future and only 1/4 of creation) This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees). Ones secondary consciousness enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to their desires not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu. Understanding the true origins of all living entities This book is based on the teachings of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The difference between mental speculation and philosophical speculation is backing up ones realizations with quotes from Srila Prabhupada who is my Spiritual Master. Unless one engages in philosophical speculation, just how will one formulate relevant questions to place before their guru and search through his teachings for correct meaning and understanding? The difference between philosophical and mental speculation is conclusions based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings (books, tapes and letters) that is handed down to our society in the 21<SUP>st</SUP> Century giving the correct meaning and translations of all previous Acharayas. Srila Prabhupada is the 32nd Spiritual Master in a line of disciplic succession that goes all the way back to Krishna. Srila Prabhupada, unlike all previous Acharayas, has spread the teachings of Lord Krishna and Sri Chaitanya to every corner of the globe. Due to his endeavours the chanting of Hare Krishna and the distribution of his books has reached every city, town and village around the world where Krishna has now become a house hold name. Chanting Hare Krishna and engaging in devotional service will protect a sincere aspiring devotee as the cobbler was protected in the story of ‘the cobbler and the jnani’ (page ?) however there are also those sincere souls who may become disillusioned if they only follow the charisma of a particular Guru, Swami or general devotee when a philosophical crisis develops due to their sentimental understanding of Vedanta. Srila Prabhupada wanted all his disciples and grand disciples etc to study his books and learn HIS teachings and not simply become an un-knowledgeable follower in someone else’s religious plans, "Don't think, just do what you are told prabhu may have its place in helping some, but it is certainly not meant for everyone”, it is an old cliché that can be misused and deny one from their own personal realizations and natural Spiritual development and growth. This is also called being institutionalised. If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism. One must study Srila Prabhupadas books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books. The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters. The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures, although there is even great benefit in that. However the story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream. I was once cleaning the Temple room in early 1973, in the process, I removed the paintings of the Panca-tattva (Lord Chaitanya and Nityananda and their associates) and Radha and Krishna down and placed them on the step of Srila Prabhupadas Vysa sign at the feet of Srila Prabhupadas’ photo on the Vysa sign because I did not want to put the painting on the floor. As I continued cleaning, to my surprise Srila Prabhupada came in and on seeing the paintings on the step of his Vysa sign, began laughing and laughing and laughing in a serious yet surprised mood. Then he said, “What is this?” He was referring to the paintings of Radha and Krishna and the Panca-tattva sitting at his feet. Srila Prabhupada then gently explained - “I sit at the feet of Krishna and Lord Chaitanya, when you go back to Krishna, back to Goloka, you will understand.” He then laughed again finding it humorous that one of his Western devotees would put the beautiful paintings of the Lord at the feet of their Spiritual Master Srila Prabhupada had tears in his eyes as he began to start chanting japa while looking at the attractive painting of the Panca tattva and Radha and Krishna. (The curtains to the Dieties were closed) Everyone else was out on Sankirtan except for the few devotees in the Kitchen. So there I was with Srila Prabhupada and no one else around in the Temple room. Srila Prabhupada said, after chanting for a few minutes - “Radha and Krishna as Lord Chaitanya is very nice and so attractive’, He then continued to laugh again as a father would laugh at the childish attempts of his young son to glorify him. What he was seeing I certainly could not see. Srila Prabhupada then started chanting japa in the temple room softly and I continued cleaning. When I finished the maintenance, Prabhupada then said in a humble chastising mood - ‘Now you can put the paintings back on the wall and always remember that I am always at the feet of Radha and Krishna, next time you clean, put the paintings on a chair and not on the step of the Vysa-sign, one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna” For the next ten minutes we both chanted japa and then he payed his obeisances to Radha and Krishna, I payed my obediences to him and Srila Prabhupada went back to his room. As a young 20 year old, the significance of his mercy was taken for granted, we had no idea of the significance of being pioneers in Lord Chaitanyas’ Movement in 1972 although we new that distributing Srila Prabhupadas books and chanting Hare Krishna on the streets in so many cities, towns was something very special. It was only thirty years later I began to realize how significant my association with Srila Prabhupada was, for me, I always believed we were once with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada personally confirmed that to me - “Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes” – Always chant Hare Krishna. This thesis is attempting to understand how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva. This separate version of the self is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition. Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”. <u1:p></u1:p> <U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> – <u1:p></u1:p> “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”. <u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all. <u1:p></u1:p><U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear</U>. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes the point – <u1:p></u1:p> “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious phenomenon, only a dream. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada continues – <u1:p></u1:p> “Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming” end of Srila Prabhupadas quote <u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>The secondary extended conscious life force phenomena (jiva-sakti), emanating from ones own authentic perpetual rasa nitya-siddha bodily form (vigraha) in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha dominion, manifests due to its non-Krishna conscious nature. This jiva-sakti consciousness is transferred from Goloka and further facilitated or provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva creation. This cloud of the dreaming (the mahat-tattva) is also situated in the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (<st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) in one corner and is distinguished from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm by is phenomenal nature of impermanence and division of time. This has been a mystery to even many great Vishnavas (devotees of <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>) in the past in their attempts to try and understand the true origins of all living entities that enter that dark impermanent cloud in one corner of the Spiritual Sky (Brahmajyoti). <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti or the living force or life force (the extended consciousness of the nitya-siddha devotee in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti) may also fall from the jiva-tatastha conscious condition of spark like dormant consciousness that is situated between the Vaikunthas (Vishnuloka) and the mahat-tattva (the Impersonal aspect of Krishnas individual marginal consciousnesses or Brahmajyoti) however, from the bigger picture ofthecreation outside of the mahat-tattva and the thin Impersonal Brahmajyoti realm of marginal consciousnesses or dormant life forces (tatastha-saktis) separating the imperishable (Goloka) from the perishable (Vaikuntha), Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation and long, long, long, long before that our secondary consciousness was transferred or extended from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Brahmajyoti Spiritual Sky.<u1:p></u1:p> <U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.<u1:p></u1:p> <U><u1:p></u1:p>Ones secondary conscious projection</U> (jiva-bhutah) in this way can only manifest as a dormant spiritual spark (jiva-tatastha) AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. Such a dreamless conscious aspect of the life force (jiva-sakti) is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha condition of consciousness which is also the Impersonal extension of the Brahmajyoti we call the ‘Impersonal Brahmajyoti’. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>In this way we do not originate from tatastha or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti because JIVA-TATATHA CONSCIOUSNESS is a secondary conscious phenomenon transferred from ones rasa perpetual body in the beautiful Goloka-Vrndavana Spiritual sky or Brahmajyoti to the dark maha-tattva cloud in the same Spirtual Sky or Brahmajyoti as shown in the painting above. This may have to be read a few times to understand the real concept of Brahmajyoti and our authentic origins from Goloka. Only due to lack of real knowlege does one believe we originated from tatastha (the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti). All glories to Srila Prabhupada <!-- End - Right Container --> Very good read I believe there is enough scripture to back this up, there is certainly no scripture that could defeat this understanding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 An essential point you folks are missing is that since there is no past or present in the Spiritual Sky there is no loss or even notice or the so-called fall. It is not that there are sleeping people laying around in Goloka for god's sake. You are arguing against a point no one is even making. A dream has it's reality as a dream, but it still is a dream, a real dream. But there is no way something that has a beginning and an ending to it's existence is anything but a dream, a mirage, an illusion. Anyway...dream on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation and long, long, long, long before... he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.... AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. before... before... after. Notice how Vigraha ridicules others who mention before/after considerations ("time") in their posts, yet his own post relies on the assumption of the passage of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muralidhar_das Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Very good read I believe there is enough scripture to back this up, there is certainly no scripture that could defeat this understanding Provide the quotes from shastra, then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted May 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 before... before... after. Notice how Vigraha ridicules others who mention before/after considerations ("time") in their posts, yet his own post relies on the assumption of the passage of time. If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism. One must study Srila Prabhupadas’ books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books, referring mostly to Impersonalists, Buddhists, materialists and mundane religionists. The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters are all as equal as each other. Why wouldn’t they be so? Srila Prabhupada warned us to not dwell too much of why and how we are here, but to get out. On many occasions he has said that our existence in the material world is so long that it seems we have come from tatastha, then throws a transcendental spanner in the works by saying that before that we also existed in another creation of matter and before that, and before that, and before that – how far can we go back? And he finishes by saying, before that even, we were with Krishna. 1. The time factor of past present and future exists in the mahat-tattva, a place of divided time that has the effect of decay and impermanence. 2. The impersonal characteristic of ones consciousness is called the jiva-tatastha conscious state that is devoid of past, present and future. The jiva-sakti consciousness is suspended in a dreamless timeless existence we call tatatasha, but even that conscious state is temporary due to the inherent active nature of one consciousness that originates from ones perpetual rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. 3. The goloka-Vrndavan realm on the other hand is fully active in a way where there is no past or future, there is only the perpetual present, and so everything has always been there and will always be there. Our svarupa body has always been there. Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself. The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures, although there is even great benefit in that. However the story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 i've done some searching around the web and it appears that this thesis and theory is the brainchild of one Pradyumna Swami. http://pradyumnaswami.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!3016C3218A4C8577!107.entry but, I find it quite curious and very suspicious that Prabhudumna Swami or one of his followers would post this thesis theory on this forum and conceal the identity of the true author. If a person is not even willing to attach his name to his works, then that is very suspicious and very questionable. I think Pradyumna Swami (whoever he is, I don't know anything about him), will someday be exposed for his flawed siddhanta and will be known as a fraud philosopher. If you do a search on "atma vigraha" you will find his thesis posted on several places around the web. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 The Final Proof: The Jiva Did Fall From Goloka The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1> of<st1> Krishna</st1></st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear. As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe). In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form. Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud. All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva. When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming. Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from. In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed. Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s. There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1><st1>Krishna</st1></st1:place>. To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body). As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 In "The Final Proof:The Jiva did Fall From Goloka", there is not ONE shastric reference - just a lot of mental rambling, conjecture and fabrication. The final proof is not proof at all, because there is not one shastric reference in the "final proof". The "final proof" is bogus. Apparently, the author thinks himself to be an authority on the level of Vyasadeva or a Vedic rishi. His final proof is nothing more than his own mental ramblings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devarsirat Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 i've done some searching around the web and it appears that this thesis and theory is the brainchild of one Pradyumna Swami. http://pradyumnaswami.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!3016C3218A4C8577!107.entry but, I find it quite curious and very suspicious that Prabhudumna Swami or one of his followers would post this thesis theory on this forum and conceal the identity of the true author. If a person is not even willing to attach his name to his works, then that is very suspicious and very questionable. I think Pradyumna Swami (whoever he is, I don't know anything about him), will someday be exposed for his flawed siddhanta and will be known as a fraud philosopher. If you do a search on "atma vigraha" you will find his thesis posted on several places around the web. Too right, I think Ravindra Svarupa ones came up with all this nonsense, a couple of years back i read an article by him in a btg mag, same stuff, lots of philosophical specs, but no sastric references. At first i was taken in by it and i thought oh wow what a revelation, then i looked for quotes in the books and there where non. then i realised that sometimes ones mental speculations can look very real and can be mistaken for enlightenment. I think its mayas powerful display again, like someone may think they have become god. Srila Prabhupada says if you want to be cheated you find a perfect cheater. Remember that many of those who choose to exclusively rely on their own understanding of Srila Prabhupadas purports since He passed away, did not bother to find a genuine siksa guru. Srila Prabhupada also said shorthly b4 He left this planet, that "the training was not completed" correct me if this is not true. If the training was not complete and they became each a "HDG as good as god" then what can we expect? So now we have so many different fractions and understandings as the result. No further spiritual guidance and those who can give genuine spiritual guidance are shunned and discredited by those whose training was not complete and their followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 As a matter of fact, I am finding it very difficult to even find such a term as "atma vigraha" except as it appears several times in the writing of this Pradyumna Swami. I certainly can't find the Sanskrit term in the Gita and I haven't found the term in other other place except in the writings of this Pradyumna Swami. I am not so sure that the term "atma vigraha" is even a valid Sanskrit term. I could be wrong. But, I haven't found it in shastra yet. If anyone can find it, I would like to know where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 According to the author of this nonsense thesis theory, Srila Sridhar Maharaja and all the Gaudiya Math sannyasis were "infected with impersonalism", whilst this Pradyumna Swami has got the perfect personalism down to a science. This further clarification of how the marginal atma-vigraha's can choose to exist as their Krishna Conscious self, or enter a non-Krishna conscious dream within the temporary universe facilitated by Maha-Vishnu, further strengthen the understanding of Personalism and gives the clear understanding of our real origins in Goloka-Vrindavan, and further make it clear to the Impersonalists and Vaishnava's infected with Impersonalism, that the life force or marginal personalities are not originally insignificant atoms or sparks of living light, as some Gaudiya Math so-called authorities propagate. Only in the material universe, facilitated by Maha-Vishnu, can one appear in any way they imagine, even a spark of insignificant light!! It is very hard understanding that there was never a time when all our atma-vigraha bodily forms did not exist, nor in the future will that form ever cease to be, even if one consciously forgets it and chooses to go off into some non-Krishna conscious illusionary dream in the material existence, or extend that figment of ones imagination to the Impersonal Brahma-sayujya. This refererence came from here..... http://www.isvara.org/forumen/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5530 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Did I fall from Goloka? Nope, that's not a place to fall from according to sastra. But I do want to go to Goloka, don't you? That's the main thing to DESIRE rightly so that all times, places and circumstances will concur to assist me, the tiny jiva soul, to safely journey to KRSNA's abode. Hare Krsna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 but, I find it quite curious and very suspicious that Prabhudumna Swami or one of his followers would post this thesis theory on this forum and conceal the identity of the true author. I'm pretty sure (but can't prove it) that the brainchild behind all this is a well-known Iskcon scientist, Drutakarma das (Michael Cremo.) He had written an elaborate paper a few years back describing his theory on the jiva fall, which basically coincides with what is being postulated by Pradyumna Swami/Vigraha das, i.e. that we are supposedly still in Goloka Vrndavana, but dreaming that we are in this material sphere, in maya, suffering for untold lifetimes in countless species of life. Although this theory has been refuted by Guru, Sastra, Sadhu, as well as logic and common sense, there is an agenda involved in presenting such a flawed theory, hence the proponents will not admit defeat. A couple of points for further consideration: 1) Despite the fact that it has been proven that maya and envy cannot enter into Goloka Vrndavana, let's just assume for a moment, for argument's sake, that maya somehow enters that realm and a nitya siddha gopi or gopa momentarily forgets about Krsna (even though the Srimad Bhagavatam states that pure devotional service is ahaituki, aprahihata --- unmotivated and uninterrupted.) A momentary lapse of maya and the all-merciful Lord Sri Krsna would send His pure bhakta into Hell? Or cause his pure bhakta to dream about Hell for a seeming eternity? Wouldn't that be a bit drastic for someone who has said that His devotee never perishes? And that even if a devotee has a falldown, he is still to be considered saintly? Krsna tells Arjuna to control the lower self with the higher self. So, according to Drutakarma das, if the higher self is already living in Goloka Vrndavana, then shouldn't Krsna or His devotees be preaching to that higher self, rather than coming to this material hell to preach to the lower self? Also, it is explained (sorry, don't have the quote) that there are three gradations of acquiring knowledge about the suffering of this material world: hearing from a bona fide source, witnessing first-hand the suffering of others, and finally, having to experience that suffering oneself. Wouldn't the all-merciful Lord Sri Krsna, who is always indebted to His devotees, prefer the first or second approach, rather than tossing His gopi or gopa into an endless cycle of samsara? 2) If pure devotees need to experience endless suffering within this material world in order to never return again, doesn't that make fear greater than love? That bhayam is greater than prema? If anyone actually believes this, then they do not have a proper understanding of Krsna prema. For one experiencing Krsna prema, which the inhabitants of Goloka Vrndavana most certainly do, their prema serves as a motivator millions and billions of times greater than any "fear of the material world" can provide. To consider otherwise is to minimize what a precious gift Krsna prema actually is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 It's obvious that this Pradyumna Swami thinks that he has the right to fabricate terms, statements and concepts that are nothing more than misinterpretations of Srila Prabhupada's words that cannot be traced to a specific shastric reference. I have never seen such an audacious and preposterous attempt by any ISKCON sannyasi. He is in a class by himself when it comes to fabrication, concoction and misinterpretation. It's the most ridiculous attempt at a philosophical thesis I have ever seen. It's actually a disgrace to Srila Prabhupada and his legacy of teachings. ISKCON needs to reel this loose cannon back in and stop his nonsense pontificating of fictitious doctrines that are being presented as Gaudiya siddhanta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 the author of the thesis in question has also taken the liberty to say that the lotus flower of Goloka is red, when in fact I don't find anywhere that the lotus of Goloka is described as any particular color. The lotus flower that Lord Brahma appeared on is said to be of red or yellowish color, because red is the color of passion and Lord Brahma is the guna-avatar of raja-guna. I don't see anywhere that the lotus of Goloka is described as red. I think the author of the thesis in discussion has taken liberty to say it is red when in fact that is not based on shastric evidence. I can't find any refererence as to any particular color that the lotus of Goloka has been described as being of that color. Again, I could be wrong. I don't know everything. Anybody got anything on this subject? I am sure he got his idea from the portrait that he is using to demonstrate his topic. But, other than some ISKCON portrait, I can't find any shastric description of the actual color of the lotus of Goloka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Let's look at the errors in siddhanta in just the first post of this thread by this pretend person "Vigraha". (1)where Krishna’s numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside (he says the expansions of Vishnu are numberable, when in reality they are innumerable). (2)nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha (concocted sanskrit verse that does not exist in shastra) (3)This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees). (in fact the material universes of the cosmos come out of the pores of the Maha-Vishnu and is not the product of dreaming jivas) (4) Ones secondary consciousness enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to their desires not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu. (this term secondary consciousness of the jiva is a false term that he has manufactured and has no basis in shastra. it's an outright concoction) These are just a few of his bogus statements and clains in just the first four paragraphs of his nonsense concocted thesis on the fall of the jiva. I am sure that the rest of the thesis is just as bogus and misguiding as the first four paragraphs. this person is totally unfit and unqualified to be writing thesis papers on Gaudiya siddhanta. There are uninitiated devotees I know that know the siddhanta better than this Swami. How he ever got to be a Swami and who awarded him sannyasa is very much in question as he persists to write and publish bogus theories on the fall of the jiva that is based on his mental speculations and fabrications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted May 7, 2007 Report Share Posted May 7, 2007 Here we find the basic fundamental flaw in Pradyumna Swami's writings. He writes: The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations Ok, so he admits that most of this nonsense is based on his PERSONAL REALIZATIONS. Sadly, what he is referring to as "personal realizations" are actually personal speculation and mental concoctions. If "personal realizations" conflict with shastra, then these "personal realizations" are just so much nonsense fabrication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2007 Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism. One must study Srila Prabhupadas’ books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books, referring mostly to Impersonalists, Buddhists, materialists and mundane religionists. The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters are all as equal as each other. Why wouldn’t they be so? Srila Prabhupada warned us to not dwell too much of why and how we are here, but to get out. On many occasions he has said that our existence in the material world is so long that it seems we have come from tatastha, then throws a transcendental spanner in the works by saying that before that we also existed in another creation of matter and before that, and before that, and before that – how far can we go back? And he finishes by saying, before that even, we were with Krishna. 1. The time factor of past present and future exists in the mahat-tattva, a place of divided time that has the effect of decay and impermanence. 2. The impersonal characteristic of ones consciousness is called the jiva-tatastha conscious state that is devoid of past, present and future. The jiva-sakti consciousness is suspended in a dreamless timeless existence we call tatatasha, but even that conscious state is temporary due to the inherent active nature of one consciousness that originates from ones perpetual rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. 3. The goloka-Vrndavan realm on the other hand is fully active in a way where there is no past or future, there is only the perpetual present, and so everything has always been there and will always be there. Our svarupa body has always been there. Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself. The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures, although there is even great benefit in that. However the story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream. PRABHUADA HAS ON MANY OCCASSIONS REFERRED TO OUR MATERIAL EXISTANCE AS A DREAM. Gurvani seems to be getting quite upset, his prabably having a bad DREAM. One day he will reawaken his originally Krishna Consciousness and wake up back in is his rasa body and see that the mahat-tattva creation of the sleeping maha-Vishnu, is a place where all our mundane dreams go because they cannot stay in Vaikuntha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted May 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 <!-- Start - photoMetaData --> <!-- Start - containerMetaLeft --><!-- End - prevNextContainer --><!-- Square Ad --> WE ALL ORIGINATED FROM GOLOKA <U><?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p></U> The beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us that the perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by the imperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s innumerable (countless) expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation. Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets; both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities or Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies where no material energy (Maha-Maya) can exist. The nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s (Krishna’s marginal potency) can never fall down as their bodily devotional self because of the perpetual uninterrupted nature of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is set in the eternal present beyond the concept of past and future. Spelling is now correct Krishna’s innumerable (countless) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2007 Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 If Bill Gates dreams that he has become a pauper, has he really become a pauper? Of course not! Is there anything Bill Gates can do during a pauper-dream that will change his waking-state identity? Of course not! Does Bill Gates need to make some effort to change his dreams? No! His dreams do not change his waking-state identity. If you were able to enter Bill Gates' pauper-dream and preach to his dream-identity, neither your preaching nor his response would make any difference to his waking-identity. The conclusion is simple: No action in our maya-dream can affect our continuing existence in our rasa-bodies. So we should eat, sleep, mate and defend to our hearts' content, secure in the knowledge that we are rightly situated in our rasa with Krishna. This is the inner meaning of "sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah" -- We should give up all varieties of religion, because religion while we are in our dream-state is pointless, having no consequence on our eternal rasa-bodies. With this knowledge, we can become fearless, realizing that our sinful reactions are as imaginary as our dreams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted May 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 The mahat-tattva is real but temporary. In Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, the actions, thoughts and dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee's are all real, are all on the same level of reality. This is hard for us to understand from our dimensional platform of consciousness because we are governed by past, present, future, decay and forgetfulness while our consciousness (jiva-sakti) is restricted to the mahat-tattva. On the absolute level every dream and thought is as real as ones deeds. Even in the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva, where ones life force (jiva-sakti) is confined to an ethereal body in a sub-space dimension of the mahat-tattva, ones thoughts and deeds are on an equal footing. The heavenly realm or atmosphere is completely different from our secular condition on this gross material planet where the ethereal or subtle body that houses the jiva consciousness, is further restricted and restrained by a biological vessel. So how are we to understand that our dreams are also real and transmitted as a conscious state or living force we call the jiva-sakti? The answer to that is our dreams are non-different from the vigraha body that is transmitting them, the only difference being is when one is devotionally serving as their full potential bodily self, they are Krishna Conscious dreams and deeds of loving service to Krishna, when not, such dreams, that are real, are transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud in the same Spiritual Sky existing in one corner that is just as real as the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of the Spiritual Sky except, unlike the rest of Krishna’s perpetual creation unaffected by the concept of past and future, is a temporary phenomenon controlled by time, past, present, future, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age and death. This means that the dreams we have in our atma-vigraha body, unlike the dreams we have in our biological bodies, are very real and have substance and form called the jiva-sakti that becomes contained in ethereal and biological bodies provide by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva. Eventually such dreams fade and change over time (the jiva-sakti or life force always remains the transmitted consciousness despite these changes) due to the temporary nature of the vessels one’s jiva consciousness is confined to. The life force or jiva-sakti therefore become further entangled within the cycle of birth and death within the mahat-tattva or material manifestation. Such mahat-tattva (material) time of past, present and future only exists in the mahat-tattva, where ones extended life force of dreams (jiva-sakti) can only be fulfilled by Maha-Vishnu who offers the visiting dreams (jiva-sakti) ethereal and biological bodies or vessels for there journey within the mahat-tattva, so their independent non-Krishna conscious dreams can be expressed. The jiva-soul is real and such extended life force (jiva-sakti) emanating from Goloka-Vrndavana, is in this way transferred to the mahat-tattva. In this way the jiva-sakti can appear as a jiva spark, a seed distributed by Maha-Vishnu as He glances over His mahat-tattva creation or even a spark of inactive consciousness called tatastha. From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti (living force or life force) may also fall from the tatastha conscious condition as a spark of conditioned consciousness (jiva-bhutah transformation of the life force or jiva sakti, from its dormant conscious state called tatastha-s’akti) however, from the bigger picture of creation outside of the mahat-tattva, Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation. Ones secondary conscious projection or extension of the life force jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva or jiva-bhutah) can only manifest as a spiritual spark AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. The jiva-sakti is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha condition of consciousness situated as a single unit with unlimited others in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman. The secondary creation is a phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the vigraha devotee’s in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the atma-vigraha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotees of Krishna) in the past. The nitya-siddha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form (marginal due to the characteristics of free will to increase ones love for beautiful Krishna) is constitutionally a perpetual personal bodily form (vigraha) emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body. Krishna is the Supreme Vigraha body from whence His entire marginal vigraha devotee’s commence. There is also a second part to ones marginal disposition that allows one to activate a facet of their consciousness that does not include Krishna, this second-rate extended conscious phenomena (jiva-sakti) is a further expression of the nitya-siddha devotee’s marginal characteristic, but can only take up residence in the mahat-tattva (material universes) because such consciousness cannot exist in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. The secondary extension of the life force (jiva-sakti) therefore can only exist due to the absence of Krishna Consciousness, just like darkness can only exist due to the absence of light. The non-Krishna conscious dreams of the perpetual nitya-siddha devotee, in this way emanates as a secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) while the nitya-siddha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form never leaves Goloka because of perpetual time factor. Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”. These mistaken self centered choices or none Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen”, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming condition of consciousness. This is a very important point to try and understand. Srila Prabhupada “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation” Srila Prabhupada – ‘Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being fallen from our position in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha but Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen, our rasa body actually goes nowhere and is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because we are simply in a dreaming condition’. Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ." Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70 Srila Prabhupada "A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly." Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15 Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply sub-conscious choose to do ‘our own thing’ and drift off into same self made dream, turning our back on Krishna and forgetting the perpetual rasa body we serve Krishna as. The nitya-siddhas are distinguished as separate expansions of the Lord's bodily Self, and because some of them desire to be lords and imitate the Supreme Lord, He allows them to enter into the mahat-tattva (not as their rasa body as clearly explained) with the option to fully utilize their propensity to lord it over nature. Because of the presence of His parts and parcels, the nitya-siddha’s secondary conscious state enters phenomenal world (mahat-tattva) and are stirred into action and reaction when provide the ethereal and later the further covering of the biological vessel, that allows them to act out their desires in. Thus the living entities or nitya-siddha’s, as their secondary ‘non-Krishna conscious self’ (JIVA-SAKTI), are given full facilities to lord it over material nature, but the ultimate controller is the Lord Himself in His plenary features as Maha-Vishnu, the creator of the mahat-tattva and Paramatma, the Supersoul, who is one of the puruṣas is always with the embodied life force or jiva sakti transferred from their perpetual rasa body in Goloka. There is a gulf of difference between the living being and the controlling Lord (Paramātmā), the soul and the Supersoul. Paramātmā is the controller, and the atma-vigraha is the controlled; therefore they are in different categories. Because the Paramatma fully cooperates with the atma-vigraha, He is known as the constant companion of the living being. The all-pervading feature of the Lord — which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force or life force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls — is known as Brahman. Since the Lord is the origin of both Paramatma and Brahman, He is the origin of all living entities and all else that exists. One who knows this engages himself at once in the devotional service of the Lord. Such a pure and fully cognizant devotee of the Lord is fully attached to Him in heart and soul, and whenever such a devotee assembles with similar devotees, they have no engagement but the glorification of the Lord's transcendental activities Our time is so long in the mahat-tattva that we forget we originated from Vaikuntha, Srila Prabhupada explained that our time is so long in the mahat-tattva that we forget we originated from Vaikuntha, so much so, that many great devotees explain that our origins into this world to be from the tatastha state of the life force, jiva-sakti or jiva-tattva’s individual consciousness, as so many quotes from Jiva-Gosvami, Sri Thakur Bhaktivinoda, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada repeatedly explain however, from the bigger picture of creation outside of the viewpoint of the mahat-tattva, which the Vedas mostly detail discuss, Srila Prabhupada, who represents all the previous Acharyas has clearly stated we did not originate from tatastha condition of consciousness. Srila Prabhupadas preaching success speaks for itself, no-one before him, not even Lord Chaitanya Himself, spread the teachings of Krishna-Chaitanya so far and wide to every corner of the planet as Srila Prabhupada did. Srila Prabhupada, who is the present bonefide representative of all previous Acharyas, tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state from a previous mahat-tattva creation and before that, maybe a long, long, long time before that, we were with Krishna. There is no beginning or end to the creation, which means there is no origin to the marginal vigraha devotee’s. The nitya-siddha personality, identity and form refer to ones original Krishna Conscious perpetual rasa body that is always there in Goloka-Vrndavana (Gods Kingdom) and can never fall down. Only ones dreams and desires that don’t include Krishna, instantaneously formulates the perceptible secondary altered-state sub-consciousness called the jiva-tattva or jiva-bhutah which is the fallen state of the marginal consciousness emanating as dreams from ones rasa body, IF one chooses to be independent of Krishna and simultaneously the original marginal rasa body they perpetually serve Krishna as – its all based on what ones consciousness is absorbed in, either serving Krishna, or chasing ‘dreams’ of self importance and selfish desires. These are the two main states of consciousness, one is perpetual in ones Krishna Conscious imperishable form as one’s rasa body, the other is tormented with being covered by perishable material bodies (ethereal and Biological) that manifest within the mahat-tattva. There is a third state called tatastha that originates from the second state after being in and eventually liberated from the mahat-tattva. 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gHari Posted May 8, 2007 Report Share Posted May 8, 2007 His dreams do not change his waking-state identity. But his dreams can wake him up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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