We All Originated From Goloka

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

Devotee: I have read the book "Our Original Position" (OOP) published by the Iskcon GBC Press in which it is stated that the jivas (living entities) come to this material world after falling from grace in the spiritual world. Is this 'fall philosophy' correct according to sastra and previous acaryas?
Swami Narasingha: No, it is not at all the correct understanding of how the jivas came into material existence. The book (OOP) does not properly represent Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy nor does it properly represent the teachings and conclusions of our spiritual master Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada.

One of the authors of OOP has stated that in his opinion the views in OOP provide broad evidence of a fall/no fall paradox of the soul's origin being rooted in Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition as follows:

"OOP provides broad evidence from within the Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition to show that Srila Prabhupada's paradoxical claims on the soul's origin are firmly rooted in that tradition." (Heresy and the Jiva Debate by Howard Resnick [Hrdayananda Dasa Gosvami] - The Hare Krsna Movement -The Post-charismatic Fate of a Religious Transplant)

Having gone through OOP in great detail, we fail to see how the authors have done anything other than ignore the crucial points surrounding the jiva issue, misinterpret the sastra (Gaudiya Vaisnava tradition) and create imaginary interpretations. Truthfully speaking, outside of the limited circle of Iskcon, no Gaudiya Vaisnava philosopher accepts the OOP book as authoritative. The book reads like the papal dogma of Christianity rather than the philosophy of Gaudiya acaryas. In fact the authors of OOP make statements that are so absurd, no intelligent person will take them seriously.

According to the OOP book A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada sometimes says the jiva falls from association with Krsna and sometimes he says the jiva does not fall. This then becomes a paradox. A paradox is a statement, proposition or situation that seems to be absurd or contradictory, but in fact is or may be true. OOP therefore suggests that the jiva falls and doesn't fall simultaneously. But when A. C Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada himself states the conclusion, then the so-called 'paradox' created by some of his followers, vanishes.

According to the Bhaktivedanta purport on Srimad Bhagavatam 3.16.26:

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."

This conclusion, which completely negates the so-called paradoxical view created in the OOP book, is also upheld by sastra and previous acaryas such as Jiva Gosvami, Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, and all bona fide devotees in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya. The conclusion is that the jivas, that are now conditioned by the modes of material nature and originate in the 'tatastha' or the marginal plane of existence, did not fall from the spiritual world.

Ignoring the conclusion of their spiritual master, the authors of the OOP book insist that the jiva falls from the spiritual world. Thus their opinions are taken simply as faulty interpolations.

The actual position of the jiva is marginal. The marginal plane, as the origin of the jivas between the material and spiritual worlds, has been stated in sastra and by previous acaryas. There, in that marginal plane, the jivas are in a state of equilibrium but due to their innate nature they gradually become attracted to either the spiritual or material energy of the Supreme Person.

When one accepts the direct meaning of the sastra (amnaya vakya) it is understood that the jivas are tattastha-sakti - i.e. they are the marginal potency of Godhead.

BRHADARANYAKA UPANISAD states the following about the marginal position of the jiva:

tasya va etasya purusasya dve eva sthane bhavata

idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca sandhyam trtiyam

svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete

ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca

"The jiva-purusa should inquire about two locations, the material world and the spiritual world. The jiva is situated in a third position, called svapna sthana, on the border between these two places. Situated in this marginal place, he can see both the material and spiritual worlds". (Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3.9)

tad yatha maha matsya ubhe kule'

nusancarati purvam ca param caivam

evayam purusa etav ubhav antav

anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca

"Just as a large fish living in the river wanders from one bank to the other, so the jiva is of similar quality, and is equipped to wander in the Karana waters between the material and spiritual worlds (svapnanta and buddhanta)." (Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3.18)

JIVA GOSVAMI writes in his commentary to Sri Brahma-samhita 5.21 and quotes Sri Narada-pancaratra:

yat-tatastham tu cid rupam sva-samvedyad vinirgatam

ranjitam guna ragena sa jiva iti kathyate

"Although spiritual and conscious by nature, the jiva lives on the border between the spiritual and material worlds. When it chooses to enter the material world, it becomes contaminated by the modes of nature. That is said to be the spirit soul."BHAKTIVINODA THAKURA writes the following in numerous books:

ubhaya-kula dekhite dekhite bhogecchara udaya haile tahara cit-surya-svarupa krsna haite bahirmukha haya

"The moment that the jivas desire to enjoy independently while gazing at the two banks of the river, they become averse to Krsna, who is like the sun."

tini cit u jadera sandhi-sthale tatastha-sakti-karttrka prakatita haiya sei sthana haite cijjagata u mayika-jagata ubhaya sthana dekhite lagilen. Ektu bhagavaj jnanakrsta haiya yahara sei jnana-samsarga-prasanga cidabhilasi hailen, tahara nitya-bhagavadusmukhata-prayukta cicchakti-vilasagata-hladini-bala-prapta haiya krsna-parsada-rupe cijjagate nita hailen. Yahara svecchakrame anyaparsvasthita mayate mohita haiya lobha karilam, tahara mayakarttrka ahuta haiya mayika jagate akrsta haoyaya mayadisa karanarnavasayi purusavatara-karttrka jada-jagate niksipta hailen. Iha kevala tahadera nitya bhagavadvaimukhyera phala. Maya-madhyagata ihavamatra mayavrtti avidya tahadigke lipta kavila. Avidyalipta haiya tahate abhinivesa karate avidya-bandh karme cakre padilena. Esthale karma-phala-bhoji paksira sahita tahadera tulana haila.

"The jiva appeared by the marginal energy at the dividing line between spirit and matter. From that position, he began to gaze at the spiritual and material worlds. Those jivas who were attracted somewhat to realization of the Supreme Person became desirous of the spiritual realm because of that contact of knowledge. They then obtained strength from the hladini potency of the abundant cit sakti, which made them favorable to the Lord eternally, and they were brought into the spiritual world as associates of the Lord. Those who, by their own free will, became bewildered and became greedy for maya situated on the opposite side, being beckoned by maya, then became attracted to the material universe, and were thrown in the universe by Karanarnavasayi Visnu, the controller of maya. That was but the result of their eternal aversion to the Supreme Lord. The moment they entered the material realm, they became overcome by ignorance, the function of maya. Overcome by ignorance, they fell into the wheel of binding karma in order to become fully absorbed in their task." (Mahaprabhura-siksa ch.7)

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

continued:

"It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres." (Tattva Viveka 2.4,page 55)
"Among the unlimited potencies of Sri Krsna, there is one known as tatastha-sakti (border-potency). From that sakti comes out the jiva-souls remaining at the junction of the two worlds, viz., the transcendental and the mundane ones, may contact them both. In its composition it is only the atomic cit (pure sentience) . . . On account of the purity in its composition, it has got the capacity for being the eternal denizen with divine bliss in the transcendental power." (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 4)

"A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world, they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world." (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7)

"The semblance or dim reflection of the internal Cit-potency is the jiva-sakti (potency) or tatastha-sakti stationed in between cit-jagat and a-cit-jagat or mayika-jagat whereas the shadow or perverted reflection of that internal cit potency is the maya-sakti or external a-cit potency. All the jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti of God and accordingly the mundane worlds emanate from the maya-sakti of God." (Bhagavat-arka Marici-mala, chap. 1, Intro)

"The jiva-souls are emanated from the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna and they are spiritual but atomic. In the very self of the jiva-soul or in his constitution practically there remains no maya. As jiva-souls are atomic in size and being emanated from the tatastha-sakti of Sri Krsna (viz. from the intermediary-potency which exists in between cit-jagat and mayika-jagat) jiva-soul is liable to be subjected to maya when he becomes averse to his constitutional right of serving the Lord. Jiva-soul in bondage misconstrues himself as the doer and enjoyer, therefore is affinated to the adopted bodies that are provided by prakrti. A jiva by dint of spiritual virtue may possess steadfast devotion to Sri Krsna and getting rid of worldly affinity goes back to the abode of bliss." (Bhagavat-arka Marici-mala, ch. 7, text 34, purport)

"The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of effulgence of Maha-Visnu are manifest as the individual souls (jivas)." (Brahma-samhita 10, purp.)

"The cit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are the innumerable minute jivas. The Jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti (border potency) of Sri Krsna; so is the nature to tatastha (border potency) of Sri Krsna." (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15)

"The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginning-less." (Jaiva Dharma)

"There are two types of jivas liberated from maya, nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, and baddha-mukta, those who were bound but became liberated. The jivas who were never bound by maya are called nitya-mukta. The nitya-muktas are also of two types, aisvarya gata nitya mukta and madhurya gata nitya mukta. The former are the associates of Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha and are the atomic particles from Mula Sankarsana. The latter are the associates of Lord Krsna in Goloka. They are the atomic particles of Sri Baladeva situated in Goloka Vrndavana." (Jaiva-Dharma, Chapter 17)

BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA has written on the nature of jiva as follows:

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him. The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

"Due to being situated in the marginal position, living entities who are averse to Hari assume the nature of mixed consciousness; in other words, when the marginal energy living entities mix with the external energy, they consider themselves the enjoyers and then enter the material world. The cause of the spirit soul's coming to live in this world in aversion to Krsna is his misuse of his free will. When this aversion becomes strong, the living entities accept a material mind and body in order to enjoy the temporary material world and thus come under the control of fruitive reactions. And when, on the strength of pious activities, they become transcendental to the varnasrama principles, which distinguish superior and inferior behavior in this world, they become paramahamsas by perfecting themselves through sadhana. Those who become paramahamsas are the Hari-janas. And those who fall from the platform of paramahamsa and engage in fruitive activities while associating with matter are situated on the platform of varnasrama. (From 'Brahmana & Vaisnava')

"Lying in between the cit (internal spiritual) and acit (external deluding cosmic) potencies of the Lord, the jiva souls are freed from the shackles of the triple qualities of maya by the loving service to the Supreme Lord Sri Krsna." (From the essay - Sri Krsna)

"Jivas are of two kinds - (1) Nitya-Mukta (eternally free), (2) Nitya-Baddha (eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are serving the Supreme God in five different functions in His eternal blissful abode, where there is no change, no destruction, no misery. Jiva, once entered there never comes back here. The inconceivably narrowest line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called 'tata'; so also the meeting line of the cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the acit world or the tata region of Maya is called tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the tata is known as the tatastha (lying at the tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the cit or the acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that; those preferring the acit, fell into the clutches of the octopus Maya, when these mortal costumes of mind and body were put on him as a punishment. The satanic frenzy in which the jiva dislikes the blissful and eternal service of his Master and prefers to quench his thirstful desires of enjoying matter, opens before him a perpetual spring of liquid fire and poison at which he begins to drink deep. Thus in going to lord it over Maya, jiva became enslaved by her." (Vaisnavism -Real and Apparent)

SRIDHARA DEVA GOSVAMI MAHARAJA spoke of the origin of the jivas as follows:

"The brahma-jyoti, the non-differentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of non-differentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahma-jyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahma-jyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahma-jyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.

"Generally, souls emanate from the brahma-jyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahma-jyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From non-differentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

"Because the soul is very small, his freedom is also imperfect; a soul in the marginal position is very vulnerable. Freedom does not mean absolute freedom. Because the soul's existence is small, his freedom is defective, there is the possibility of committing a mistake. Freedom of the minute soul does not mean perfect freedom. Complete freedom would be perfect reality, but the minute soul is endowed with the smallest atomic freedom. This is the position of the atoms of consciousness, and this is why they are vulnerable. They may judge properly or improperly; that is the position of those who are situated in the marginal position. If the soul were not endowed with the freedom to determine his position, we would have to blame God for our suffering. But we cannot blame God. The starting point of the soul's suffering is within himself." (Sri Krsna - Reality the Beautiful, ch-4, Origin of the Soul)

BHAKTI PRAJNANA KESAVA MAHARAJA states as follows:

"When the thoughts of a jiva in the tatastha realm, which is in between the spiritual and material worlds, gravitates towards independence and its accompanying temporal, material pleasures; the immediate result is forced descent to the material universes." (Vaisnava-vijaya)

SRI PURI GOSVAMI MAHARAJA has this to say about the jiva:

"The characteristic of the marginal potency is of its being able to be influenced by both the spiritual and material energies.

From Brhadaranyka-sruti 2.1:

yathagneh ksudra visphurlinga vyuccharanti

evam eva asmad atmanah sarve lokah sarve devah sarvani bhutani vyuccharanti

"Just as many tiny sparks are emitted from a blazing fire, similarly many varieties of minute living entities are produced from the Supreme Lord. This living entity has option to either stay in the material world or attain the spiritual world, he is in the middle position at the demarcation between these two worlds and has equal opportunity to go to either of these worlds. This marginal position can be described for more clarity: Just as a huge fish can move either to one bank or the opposite bank, similarly the living entity, from his MARGINAL POSITION can go either to the material or spiritual worlds, and is dependent on whether he is dreaming (in illusion) or awake in knowledge. The word 'tatastha' is further examined. The boundary between the land and the water is called the bank (tatastha). This is usually a narrow strip so minute that it cannot be seen with a naked eye. If we compare the spiritual world to the ocean and the material world to be the land, that minute strip or boundary is the corresponding position of the living entity. Both these worlds are huge in comparison to the minute living entity. Thus in the middling position being the marginal energy, partial characteristics of both sides are present in the living entity. By proper spiritual cultivation, he can be spiritualized or conversely in being ignorant, can fall into the material whirlpool. Originally, the living entity is constituted of spiritual elements, not material. Nevertheless, it can be overcome by the force of material attraction. Without the association of pure devotees, the living entity cannot be released from his precarious position. In Caitanya-caritamrta is described how the living entities, though minute sparks of the Supreme, are either bonded or eternally liberated." (Bhakti Siddhanta Sara - Essence of Pure Devotion, ch -Yogamaya & Mahamaya)

OUR CONCLUSION

From sastra and the opinions of acaryas as quoted above it is quite clear that there is no possibility of fall down from the spiritual world, Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana. That Iskcon leaders continue to preach the apa-siddhanta (false conclusion) of the fall of the jiva from the spiritual world (as they have done in the OOP book) is indeed unfortunate and misleading.

In 1981 Iskcon leaders challenged the wisdom of Srila Sridhara Deva Gosvami when he tried to help them with a correct understanding of the marginal position of the jiva, but they returned his kindness with insult and offense. Having offended such a pure Vaisnava and calling him a 'mayavadi' for upholding the position of the jiva as marginal, Iskcon has now adopted the 'fall philosophy' that is tantamount to impersonalism (because such a 'fall philosophy' suggests the fallibility of the spiritual world) as their institutional doctrine. This is clearly an anartha (bhrama-tattva) that results from Vaisnava-aparadha.

In 1987 Iskcon leaders made an official apology to Srila Sridhara Maharaja for their offensive behavior towards him but then they continued to neglect his instructions and guidance in the matter of properly understanding Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy. That Sridhara Deva Gosvami Maharaja should be approached and accepted as an authority on philosophical issues and questions was the direct instruction of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada to his disciples shortly before he departed from this world in 1977. The statements of Iskcon leaders in this regard have been documented in the book, Our Affectionate Guardians.

In order to gain an accurate understanding on the origin of the jiva and numerous other philosophical and devotional topics, literally a thousand devotees or more have turned away from Iskcon to seek spiritual guidance elsewhere. One would think that losing so many devotees and even losing prominent leaders and gurus would urge that society to re-assess their understanding of Gaudiya Vaisnava philosophy, but unfortunately it does not. Iskcon leaders continue to lead their members into a philosophical abyss, while they feast on the bitter fruits (nimboli) of misconception.

The onus is now on Iskcon leaders to either accept the conclusions of sastra and acaryas as mentioned in this article or to prove the statements of sastra and the acaryas to be faulty. In particular we would be interested to see how they will prove the statement of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada as faulty when he states, "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

Illuminations on Jiva-tattva

Index A Shorter More Concise Presentation

[All in one document - save this page as text ]

Preface

Introduction

Eleven Points of Discussion

108 Defects of "Our Original Position"

Origin of the Jiva MP3 audio file by Swami B. R. Sridhara

Origin of the Jiva by Swami B. R. Sridhara

Bhaktivinode Thakur Speaks

See also Tulsi-devi, Atomic Ray and Kala-krsnadasa

by Swami Narasingha

Return Swami Visnu Articles

Guruvani · May 9, 2007

Bhaktivinode:

"It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres." (Tattva Viveka 2.4,page 55)

muralidhar_das · May 9, 2007

Mahaprabhu said the soul "gets" a spiritual body.

He doesn't say revives or re-awakens his spiritual body.

It says that one ATTAINS a transcendental body.

Translation of Srila Sanatan Goswami's commentary to verse 2.2.207 of Brhadbhagavatamrtam which you can see in the attached image.

Among hundreds and thousands (Kotis) of muktas and siddhas (liberated souls), peaceful devotees who worship Narayan are rarer, we can know from the word "Sidhanam" which used in this sloka that even Siddhas also do Bhajans to the Lord.

Although they merge to Brahma (brahman), they remain as a different entity (they retain eternal existence), there are many examples.

In this way having different-partial nature (being relatively small and dependent, not Abolute), the meaning of "anadisiddha" is mentioned before (the liberated souls merged in Brahman are called anadi-siddha, meaning they have been merged in Brahman since a time that has no beginning, even though some of them have fallen into Maya and returned later to Brahman).

By the potency of the Lord, all the Muktas also exhibit the sadciddananda body similar to the Lord and then with their spiritual senses they do bhajan on the glories of the most attractive Lord Sri Hari.

Bhajan of the Lord can not be done by material body and senses. Therefore, all Muktas with their spiritual body and senses do service to the Lord in the process of hearing, chanting, etc.

The anadi-siddhas, the souls arising from Brahman and attaining sarupya mukti such as the 4 kumaras never got given any swarupa by any guru or by Visnu. That is absolutely clear from the Bhagavata.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.45

tasyāravinda-nayanasya padāravinda-

kiñjalka-miśra-tulasī-makaranda<wbr>-vāyuḥ

antar-gataḥ sva-vivareṇa cakāra teṣāḿ

sańkṣobham akṣara-juṣām api citta-tanvoḥ

TRANSLATION

When the breeze carrying the aroma of tulasī leaves and saffron from the lotus feet of the lotus-eyed Personality of Godhead entered through the nostrils into the hearts of those sages [the Kumāras], they experienced a change in both body and mind, even though they were attached to the impersonal Brahman understanding.

Their siddha form transformed into a devotional body.

In the Priti Sandarbha, Sri Jiva Goswami writes that a liberated soul can manifest many bodies (as in the case of Tulasi who exists in many places) and that the liberated devotees does this BY HIS OWN WILL.

By his own will a liberated soul can manifest many different forms. This is described in these words of Chandogya Upanisad (7.26.2):

sa ekadhA bhavati, dvidhA bhavati, tridhA bhavati.

"The liberated soul may manifest one form, two forms,

three forms, or more forms than that."

muralidhar_das · May 9, 2007

Brhadbhagavatamrtam 2.2.186

Sanskrit commentary by Srila Sanatana Goswami, in which he states that souls who are merged in Brahman retain their eternal spiritual form (svarupa) forever

ataH sa nitya-siddho bhedas tiSThed eva. evam satyeva mukta api lilayA

vigrahaM kRtvA bhagavantaM

bhajanti iti zrI zankarAcArya bhagavat padAnAM vacanaM

The difference between Bhagavan and Jiva is eternal. Thus Sri Shankaracarya

has also said: 'Even the liberated souls will assume a body to worship the Lord'.

tathA muktAnAm api siddhAnAM nArAyaNa parAyaNaH; sudurlabhaH prazAntAtmA

koTiSvapi mahAmune

(s.b. 6.14.5) ityAdIni mahApurANAdi vacanAni ca saGgacchante. anyathA muktyA

brahmaNi layenaikya sati ko nAma lIlayA vigrahaM karotu? ko vA bhaktyA

nArAyaNa-parAyaNo bhavatu?

In the Bhagavata (6.14.5) it is also said that amongst millions of liberated

and perfected souls few are dedicated to Narayana. Such peaceful souls are

rare.Otherwise which merged liberated soul would assume a body for the sake

of lila? Who would become dedicated with devotion to Narayana?

katham api pRthak-sattAvazeSAbhAvAt?

How can that be if there is no remainder of separate existence?

na ca vaktavyam tad vacanAni jIvanmukta viSayAnIti. yato jIvanmuktAnAM svata

eva dehasya vidyamAnAtvAt vigrahaM kRtvetyuktir na saGgacchate

It cannot be said that these statements speak about jivanmuktas because it

is not possible to say that jivanmukta who have a body [obviously the

material one is meant here] will make a body.

tathA muktAnAm api siddhAnAm iti pada-dvaya nirdezo'pi. atra ca pAdma

kArtika mAhAtmyoktau bhagavati layaM prAptasyApi nR dehasya mahAmuneH punar

nArAyaNa rUpeNa prAdurbhAvaH.

There is also the special mention in the two padas of the Bhagavata beginng

with muktAnAM api siddhAnAm.

Apart from that, in the Kartika Mahatmya it is said that a sage in a human

form merged into Bhagavan and again appeared in the form of Narayana

tathA bRhan nArasiMha purANe narasiMha caturdazI vrata prasaGge kathitaH.

bhagavati lInasyApi vezyA sahitasya viprasya punaH sabhArya prahlAda

rUpeNAvirbhAva ityAnekopAkhyAnam anyacca paraM pramANam anusandheyam ityeSA

dik.

Then there is also a story in the Brihan Narasimha Purana narrated in the

context of the vow of Narasimha Caturdashi. In the story a Brahmin who had

merged into the Lord with a prostitute again emerged as Prahlada with his

wife. There is also further evidence that should be examined. I just showed

the direction.

The words "vigrahaM kRtvetyuktir" mean make a body. The liberated soul makes a body he can render service with - he thinks "I want a spiritual hand so I can offer a flower" and a spiritual hand comes out of his consciousness.

This is what Sanatana Goswami says. The liberated soul makes "krtva" a body through contemplation (yukti, yoga). Click Krtva to see what it means.

May 10, 2007

Ha! Ha! Ha! It's good to see some humour in all this, Gurvani seems frustrated because he cannot understand the teachings of Srila Prabhpada. Also we are not mindless machine servants, on many ocassions Srila Prabhupada asked us to write our realizations down BASED on HIS teachings which Vigraha is doing.

There is one clear overwhelming point Guruvani and his 'tatastha origin buddies' don't seem to understand, and that is Srila Prabhupada has said our origins are from Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we

therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”.

Srila Prabhupada “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being fallen from our position in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha"

Srila Prabhupada explains cleary that in reality we are not fallen, our rasa body actually goes nowhere and is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because we are simply in a dreaming condition’.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”.

THESE COMMENTS SRILA PRABHUPADA HAS SAID AND NO AMOUNT OF WORD JUGGLERY WE WILL CHANGE THESE FACTS. A bonafide disciple of Sila Prabhupada understands this because such a devotee or grand disciple bases all the Vedas on Srila Prabhpadas books, interviews, classes, letters and morning walks tapes. He or She sees the entire Vedas and their true meanings through such mediums.

As devotees of Srila Prabhupada we are not interested in what other Gaudiya groups say or believe because His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is the present bonafide representative of His Spiritual Master and I believe you and I and everyone else on this website would not know anything about Krishna if it was not for Srila Prabhupada.

Your servant Vaikunthapati das. Hare Krishna

This understanding is perfectly clear to me, why is it you people cannot understand Prabhupada's teachings, its perfectly clear to me that our conscious awareness or jiva sakti is presently existing and is restricted to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu - end of debate

muralidhar_das · May 10, 2007

"We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

means

We were originally conscious of Krishna in his Brahman aspect

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya

Madhya 24.155

sagarbha, nigarbha, — ei haya dui bheda

eka eka tina bhede chaya vibheda

TRANSLATION

"The two types of ātmārāma-yogīs are called sagarbha and nigarbha. Each of these is divided into three; therefore there are six types of worshipers of the Supersoul.

PURPORT

The word sagarbha-yogī refers to a yogī who worships the Supersoul in the Viṣṇu form. The nigarbha-yogī worships the Supersoul without form. The sagarbha and nigarbha yogīs are further categorized: (1) sagarbha-yogārurukṣu, (2) nigarbha-yogārurukṣu, (3) sagarbha-yogārūḍha, (4) nigarbha-yogārūḍha, (5) sagarbha-prāpta-siddhi and (6) nigarbha-prāpta-siddhi.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya

Madhya 24.164

ei saba śānta yabe bhaje bhagavān

'śānta' bhakta kari' tabe kahi tāńra nāma

"These thirteen types of yogīs and munis are called śānta-bhaktas, for they render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the neutral stage.

</td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

The nigarbha-yogi worships the Supersoul without form. They are impersonalists. They worship Krishna in the form of "formless Brahman". They can fall down into Maya. But the bhaktas who adore God in a Personal Form in Vaikuntha never fall down.

Vigraha · May 10, 2007

The Dream<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget Krishna as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada- “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

This separate extention of the nitya siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact

“Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”

He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”.

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”.

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious phenomenon, only a dream.

Srila Prabhupada continues – “Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming”

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupadais the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith DEVOTIONAL SERVICE and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Your either with Prabhupada or against him. The choice is yours

muralidhar_das · May 10, 2007

Your either with Prabhupada or against him. The choice is yours

:rolleyes2:

Rupa, Sanatana, Bhaktivinoda, Bhaktisiddhanta... none of them ever taught that souls fall from Vaikuntha and enter into samsara.

If I choose to believe in them and not in your ideas, then am I against Srila Prabhupada?

In his books I read this:

The all-pervading feature of the Lord — which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jīva-śakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls — is known as Brahman. Since the Lord is the origin of both Paramātmā and Brahman, He is the origin of all living entities and all else that exists.

http://www.isopanisad.com/16/en

I believe this

Yofu · May 10, 2007

Sheesh Vigraha....what fundamentalism!

May 10, 2007

The Dream

No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget Krishna as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

Srila Prabhupada- “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

This separate extention of the nitya siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.





Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact





Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”





He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”.





Srila Prabhupada – “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.





Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”.

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”.

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious phenomenon, only a dream.





Srila Prabhupada continues – “Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen”.





Srila Prabhupada - “Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming”

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

 

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupadais the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith DEVOTIONAL SERVICE and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Your either with Prabhupada or against him. The choice is yours

You couldn't get one any more fundamental or original than Srila Prabhupada.

About time someone gives Prabhupadas quotes as they are. A very well written document Hare bol!!

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

This posting of random quotes (so-called) of srila Prabhupada without showing anywhere in the books that they have been taken from is a very questionable tactic.

In fact, this kind of quoting of Srila Prabhupada is open to a lot of forgery, tampering and corruption.

I have also seen a quote of Srila Prabhupada where he said

Prabhupada :"If its not in my books I did not say it".

So, really, Srila Prabhupada instructed us to put our real emphasis on what he says in the books.

I am seeing alot of undocumented quoting of Srila Prabhupada in this "Fall From Goloka" thesis.

If there ever comes to a conflict between what Srila Prabhupada said in conversation and what he wrote in the books, then we are supposed to accept what is the version in the books.

The "Fall from Goloka" theory is 99% based on so-called conversational statementes of Srila Prabhupada that are not referenced or verified and actually appear to be tampered with.

So, I don't accept the authority of the "Fall from Goloka" thesis, as it cannot be supported with the books of Srila Prabhupada and is actually in conflict with what is taught in the books.

"If it is not in my books, I didn't say it".

That is the final word from Srila Prabhupada when it comes to conflict between his conversational statements and what is in his books.

Vigraha · May 10, 2007

The dreaming Maha-Vishna is where ones Secondary non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha life force or jiva-s'akti) goes and becomes known as the 'conditioned state' when one chooses to leave Goloka however, ones nitya-siddha svarupa body always remains in Goloka.

Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka?<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

Question - It does not make sense to me in my present stage of spiritual development, which I can understand is very primitive to being born in a meat eating Godless society, that the jiva-tattva’s are continuously falling from Goloka, I look around me and can understand that billions of embodied jiva’s have taken shelter in a material bodily from the amoebas to aquatic, plant, birds, animals, human, ghosts, demigods etc. Why would anyone, in fact trillions upon trillions of jiva’s leave <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>? From my understanding could it be possible the jiva originates from tatastha or even both, that some do fall down while others are born out of tatastha?

Answer – Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita as it isthat the jivas have no beginning or end, so they certainly did not originate from tatastha condition because there was never a time the life force (jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva) did not exist, nor in the future will such living consciousness cease to be as the Gita tells us. Srila Prabhupada has told us “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

The fact is only the jiva consciousness is transmitted out of Goloka and not ones foremost Spiritual nitya-siddha body. Srila Prabhupada has said “We never had any occasion when we were separated from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear– “Our separation from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada clearly emphasizes the fact– “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Question– Before you answer why so many jiva consciousnesses choose to forget their nitya-siddha body serving Krishna and come to the material creation, if there was no beginning to the jiva, why do so many caste Vaishnava Brahmana guru’s and big, big Gaudiya swamis arrogantly and persistently claim they originated from tatastha when the Gita tells us there is no origin or beginning point of life?

Answer – India is full of gurus and caste brahmanas, unfortunately many of them are Gaudiya Vaisnavas, who mostly read only speculated translations of previous Acharayas and Vedic texts with their English version of interpretation of those texts that has been subtly influence by Impersonalism over hundreds of years undermining Krishna’s Personal creation of marginal persons, claiming they believe and can prove their nonsense impersonal tatastha origins of the jiva-consciousness. We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism and deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation.

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious bodily form.

All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings.

This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist

This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies Krishna altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return.

Regrettably their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is Impersonal instead of understanding all our origins are personal. The Impersonalists, Buddhists and Vaishnavas who believe in the impersonal origins of the jiva, cannot understand that on the top most platform of transcendental Knowledge, the entire creation steams from personalism, it is all personal, the original appearance of the jiva or atma is sat-cit-ananda-vigraha that we further call the nitya-siddha-svarupa. Ones consciousness however can fall to an Impersonal condition but they certainly do not originate fro it. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a bye product or manifestation created by Krishna, yet exhibited by HIS marginal vigraha devotees via their secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that firsts manifests in the mahat-tattva, then after many births and deaths, find liberation from that material frustrating condition in the Impersonal dormant aspect of their consciousness (that is also Krishna’s marginal force or jiva-s’akti/s) we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

In a nut shell and the simplest way possible in explaining what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and tatastha is, is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the dormant condition of the nitya-siddhas secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha consciousness that vibrates between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva in the over-all Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. The Brahmajyoti is created by the <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> via His marginal nitya-siddhas when they manifest their secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha restricted consciousness.

Firstly try to understand that tatastha and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a dormant conscious condition of the nitya-baddha lower non-Krishna conscious self (jiva-tattva or a secondary (conditioned) extension of Krishna’s marginal energy radiating ultimately from His Supreme Vigraha body), or secondary (conditioned) consciousness that primarily expanded out of their perpetual individual nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha due to choice and nothing else because Maha-Maya cannot exist in Vaikuntha. This secondary consciousness (conditioned by ones choices, thoughts, dreams and desires) is then transferred by Yoga-Maya out of Vaikuntha to the mahat-tattva cloud, then placed under the jurisdiction of Maha-Maya, the wife of the facilitator and creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

Many of us have possibly come and gone to that tatastha condition of our own consciousness on many, many occasions. Therefore it is clear that none of us in this room or the entire creation originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which is not possible because our tatastha conscious condition is only a transitional conscious state of the life force.

Srila Prabhupada says that the existence in the brahmajyoti, merging together with other individual jiva-tatasthas, without loss of individuality, is ultimately just another form of conditioned life or dreaming.

Sri Isopanisad explains that the extended secondary dreaming jiva-tattva consciousness is always appealing to Krishna to uncover their real authentic transcendental conscious identity and bodily source in Goloka and remove the veil of the restricted bodily containers in the mahat-tattva as well as the mundane Brahman tatastha consciousness or impersonal Brahmajyoti realization or ‘break away freedom from the mahat-tattva’ and reveal to them it is all (both entrapments in the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti) are both a dream and the result of an extended conscious condition caused by ones non-Krishna Conscious desires, thoughts and dreams. In this way ones secondary conscious condition trapped in mahat-tattva consciousness or tatastha consciousness does not see its full potential and true beautiful eternally youthful devotional Krishna Conscious bodily real authentic identity, which is the source of their secondary conscious existence. This is because of ones self centered desires for adoration, fame and wealth they have chosen to pursue.

Many Impersonalist yogis, Jains, Buddhists and even many Vaishnava traditions, including many Gaudiya Vishnavas, cannot understand that it is their mundane secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that exists in this material creation that was originally projected or transmitted from their perpetual rasa body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha incessant portion of the Spiritual Sky that enters the mahat-tattva and then, after billions of births, only then can manifests AS a spark of consciousness ONLY in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as confirmed by Jiva Gosvami.

Why do so many jiva’s fall from Goloka?

Now to answer your question of why so, so many trillions upon trillion of nitya-siddha-svarupa’s choose to activate their lower self or secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, that is simply answered.

It is clear in shastra that 25% of the marginal vigrahas (not as their nitya-siddha bodies) do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud simple because of choice which numbers are enormous and in the trillions and trillions as we see arond us, however it must be made clear that only 25% of nitya-siddhas choose to make that secondary conscious plunge, not as their nitya-siddha bodily form, but as the shadow of their perpetual body called the nitya baddha,as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us, most never come to the mahat-tattva creation of Lord Vishnu.

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><ST1>Kingdom</ST1></st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><ST1> Krishna</ST1> </st1:place>is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

It is because of the many meanings of Sanskrit words (170 meanings to the word jiva) and the many analogies used by Vaishnava scholars, (like the sun and the sunrays) many have misunderstood and have either given improper translations into many languages around the world, or who have taken analogies like the sun and the sun rays literally. Was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, the Spiritual Master of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, trying to explain that the living being was originally tossed down from the effulgent advaya light, but upgrading his followers' conditioning by adding the term "Vaikuntha" into this compound? Or, rather, was he trying to restructure the hardened conditioning of his scholastic well-wishers and even some of his devotees (who had become affected by the widespread interpretations of Impersonal origins prevalent at the time) by throwing in the term "advaya" to the compound advaya-vaikuntha. This is an unclear quote, and you can see how subtle the debate gets when these kinds of quotations are referenced.

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is therefore a manifestation of the secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees in Goloka as already clearly explained. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a phenomenon created by nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha perpetual body and simultaneously facilitated by the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva cloud. As such, Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha in the perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky is one and the same with the Brahmajyoti because the entire creation is the Brahmajyoti or the Brahman effulgence emanating/surrounding <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

In the Brahmajyoti, there exists all the Vaikuntha planets and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishnas</st1:place>’ personified marginal devotees known as the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees (they are the living personified vigrahas or Brahman effulgence in its highest understanding). Also in the Brahmajyoti there exists the mahat-tattva where the marginal vigraha devotees in Vaikuntha radiate from there being a secondary version of themselves that is only manifested when they choose to disrupt the perfect Krishna Conscious atmosphere of Vaikuntha. When they choose to do so, they are transferred by Yoga-Maya to Maha-Maya in the Mahat-tattva cloud in the Brahmajyoti and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Only there does <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> allow His marginal creation to do as they please and face the consequences however, they can never enter the mahat-tattva in their nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is not possible, therefore their entry into the mahat-tattva is compared to a dreaming consciousness or the shadow of who they really are.

Srila Prabhupada, from his Bhagavad gita introduction -"Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR eternal relationship with the Lord.

Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one's constitutional position".

Note, the life force is also known as the jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakrita, jiva-nikaya, jiva-tatastha that are all various stages of dreaming consciousness that is projected outside of the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of Spiritual Sky to the impermanent mahat-tattva cloud in one corner of that same Spiritual Sky.. The dreamless tatastha conscious dreamless condition of the jiva-tattva is situated between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva cloud. Such a dreamless conscious stat, like the mahat-tattva, is not permanent due to the inherent trait of eternal activity the lower conscious tatastha consciousness inherits from it nitya-siddha full consciousness or real genuine perpetual bodily self.

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

Srila Prabhupada: "If it is not in my books, I did not say it".

The books are the basis.

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

As far as the marginal living entities having an original form, that is explained here that they are "not different from the supreme form". Marginal jivas are part of the supreme form of the Lord, so as such they have an original form as being non-different from the Paramatma.

Read this Bhagavat verse with an open mind and understand that our original form is non-different than the form of the Lord.

Bhāgavatam 4.12.5

tad gaccha dhruva bhadraḿ te

bhagavantam adhokṣajam

sarva-bhūtātma-bhāvena

sarva-bhūtātma-vigraham

SYNONYMS

tat — therefore; gaccha — come; dhruva — Dhruva; bhadram — good fortune; te — unto you; bhagavantam — unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; adhokṣajam — who is beyond the concepts of material senses; sarva-bhūta — all living entities; ātma-bhāvena — by thinking of them as one; sarva-bhūta — in all living entities; ātma — the Supersoul; vigraham — having form.

TRANSLATION

My dear Dhruva, come forward. May the Lord always grace you with good fortune. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is beyond our sensory perception, is the Supersoul of all living entities, and thus all entities are one, without distinction. Begin, therefore, to render service unto the transcendental form of the Lord, who is the ultimate shelter of all living entities.

PURPORT

Here the word vigraham, "having specific form," is very significant, for it indicates that the Absolute Truth is ultimately the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is explained in the Brahma-saḿhitā. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ: [Bs. 5.1] He has form, but His form is different from any kind of material form. The living entities are the marginal energy of the supreme form. As such, they are not different from the supreme form, but at the same time they are not equal to the supreme form. Dhruva Mahārāja is advised herewith to render service unto the supreme form. That will include service to other individual forms. For example, a tree has a form, and when water is poured on the root of the tree, the other forms — the leaves, twigs, flowers and fruits — are automatically watered. The Māyāvāda conception that because the Absolute Truth is everything He must be formless is rejected here. Rather, it is confirmed that the Absolute Truth has form, and yet He is all-pervading. Nothing is independent of Him.

May 10, 2007

Branch-Moon Logic

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Goswami Maharaja

Nov. 15, 2001

[sripad Bhakti Sara Maharaja reads from Jaiva Dharma:] "Sannyasi Maharaja said, 'Prabhu, I want to understand this topic very clearly.'"

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] He very humbly said, "Prabhu, I want to know all these truths." When he said, 'to know', he meant, 'I want to realize something. I am not satisfied by the (mayavada) tattva I have been practicing. I want to be satisfied."

We should know that any example or analogy of this world cannot fully explain the transcendental world. Some examples can give us an idea, like, "Krsna is beautiful and black, like a cloud or like a tamal tree." It is not possible, however, to totally describe the transcendental world by any mundane worldly examples. Examples are given to express some idea, but there is nothing in this world that can fully compare with Krsna. Someone may ask, "Can you tell me where is the moon?" Another person will reply, "You can see it on the branch." The moon is not on the branch; it is millions of miles away. Still, some idea was given. The logic used to understand what is not within our understanding is thus called 'sakha-candra nyaya,' the logic of the moon on the branch.

By doing bhajana, by daily chanting Hare Krsna and hearing hari-katha in the correct process, with very strong belief, then, according to your advancement in bhajana, you can realize all the truths regarding this world and that absolute transcendental world. Logic will not satisfy you. One logical argument will defeat all other arguments, and then another logical argument will come and defeat all the previous arguments. Mundane logic and argument have no existence in the spiritual world.

svatah siddho vedo hari dayita vedhah prabhrtitah

pramanam sat praptam pramiti visayan tan nava vidhan

tatha pratyaksadi pramiti sahitam sadhayati nah

na yuktis tarkakhya pravisati tatha sakti rahita

"The self evident Vedas, which has been received in the sampradaya through guru parampara by recipients of Sri Hari's mercy, such as Brahmaji and others, are known as amnaya-vakya. The nine prayema tattvas are established by those amnaya-vakyas with the help of the other sastras, along with different types of evidence such as direct sense perception (pratyaksa), inasmuch as thy confirm the Vedic version. Reasoning that is only based on logic is always crippled when evaluating inconceivable subject matters, since logic and argument have no access in the realm of the inconceivable." (Dasamula 1)

acintyah khalu ye bhava na tams tarkena yojayet

prakrtibhyah param yac ca tad acintyasya laksanam

"All transcendental tattvas are beyond material nature, and are therefore inconceivable. Dry arguments are within the jurisdiction of material nature, so they can only be applied in mundane subject matters. They cannot even come close to transcendental tattvas, what to speak of grasping them. As far as inconceivable conceptions are concerned, the application of dry arguments is undesirable and useless." (Mahabharata, Bhisma parva 5.22)

[sripad Bhakti Sara Maharaja reads from Jaiva Dharma:] "Babaji Mahasaya replied, 'Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, who was an object of the mercy of Sri Nityananda Prabhu, showed me a manuscript that he had written with his own hand. Sriman Mahaprabhu has instructed us on this subject in the book named Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 20.108) as follows:

jivera 'svarupa' haya - krsnera 'nitya-dasa'

krsnera 'tatastha-sakti', 'bhedabheda-prakasa'

"The constitutional nature of the jiva is to be an eternal servant of Sri Krsna. He is the marginal potency of Krsna, and is a manifestation simultaneously one with Him and different from Him.

krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha

ataeva maya tare deya samsara-duhkha

"The jiva who has forgotten Krsna has been preoccupied with the external potency since time without beginning. Consequently, Krsna's illusory potency (maya) gives him misery in the form of material existence." (Cc Madhya 20.117)

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Can you explain the meaning of 'krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha'?

[syamarani dasi]: Caitanya Mahaprabhu is speaking to Sri Sanatana Gosvami about the nature of the jiva. 'Sei jiva' - that jiva who has forgotten Krsna since the beginning of time. 'Anadi-bahirmukha.' Caitanya Mahaprabhu explained to Sanatana Gosvami that there are two kinds of jivas, (1) the unmukha (liberated) jiva who is eternally engaged in his service in the spiritual world, and (2) the bahirmukha (conditioned) jiva who has turned his face against the Lord, who is different from that eternally liberated soul.

The conditioned jiva, who has never been in the spiritual world, is a product of the tatastha-sakti. He has emanated from there, and when given the choice by Lord Maha Visnu, he was attracted to the material nature. 'Sei jiva' - only that jiva, being attracted by the illusory energy, is being given all kinds of miseries in the form of material existence by that illusory energy.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] But why has it been said, 'krsna bhuli'? Does it mean that initially the jiva was remembering and serving Krsna in the spiritual world, but after sometime he forgot Him and fell down?

[sripad Asrama Maharaja:] One may say that this statement 'krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi-bahirmukha' means that the jiva has forgotten Krsna and came to this material world.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] But Srila Swami Maharaja has never written in his books that the jiva has come from Goloka. What is the harm of saying that the jivas were in Goloka and then they made some mistakes and fell down to this material world?

[sripad Asrama Maharaja:] It's explained in Bhagavad-gita:

janma karma ca me divyam

evam yo vetti tattvatah

tyaktva deham punar janma

naiti mam eti so 'rjuna

"One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna." (Bg 4.9)

In the spiritual world there is svarupa-sakti, but there is no influence of maya-sakti. What to speak of the spiritual world, Mayadevi cannot even go to the Viraja River, the dividing line between the spiritual world and material world.*

There is no question of ignorance in the spiritual world. There the jivas are in their svarupa, transcendental forms, and there is no question of them forgetting their relationship with the Lord and falling onto this material world. Sastra states that they are not aware of this material world.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] If the jivas fell from there, there would be no use of doing so much sadhana and bhajana. If you do bhajana and go to the spiritual world, and then you come to the material world - what is the use of doing bhajana? It is better to stay here. If that jiva falls down from Goloka Vrndavana, it would mean that maya also exists in Goloka Vrndavana. There are no words and no language to explain this. By the influence of maya there is a certain vocabulary here, and we use certain words, but you will have to purify your understanding of those words by sadhana-bhajana. You cannot understand by words alone, because mundane language does not reach beyond matter. Still, even though there is some impurity and defect, sastra will have to use this mundane language to give an idea.

[sripad Madhava Maharaja:] We have heard from our guru-parampara and we have seen in the scriptures:

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

["That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world." (BG 15.6)]

After going to the spiritual world, the eternal abode of Krsna, one will never come back to this material world. All jivas are doing sadhana-bhajana to attain the service of the Divine Couple. We should try our level best to go back to Godhead. If, after going there the jiva is falling down, then what is the use of doing sadhana-bhajana? Moreover, if they don't fall down, what to say about jivas who are the eternal associates of Krsna, such as sakhas like Subala, Sridama, and Madhumangala; parents like Nanda Baba and Yasoda Maiya; and all gopis, especially Srimati Radhika. It is not possible for them to fall down from there.

Srila Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami and Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura use the words 'krsna bhuli' only to give us an idea, and to make us understand. It is like sakha-candra nyaya-the logic of the moon on a branch. We have to understand through our guru-parampara; and then we can understand properly. If we try to understand through the speculation of mind or by our mental exercise, we cannot understand. We have to surrender ourselves to lotus feet of Gurudeva.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] There are very deep meanings in all the slokas of Srimad Bhagavatam, and they need to be explained. These slokas state that no one can fall from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha to this material world. Jaya and Vijaya wanted to please their Prabhu Narayana because He wanted to taste vira-rasa, and it was for this reason that Narayana attracted the four Kumaras to come to see Him in Vaikuntha. Neither anger, nor lust, nor any bad qualities are present in Vaikuntha, but Narayana inspired Yogamaya to make them angry. They became angry and cursed Jaya and Vijaya, and when they repented just after doing so, Narayana told them, "Don't be worried. I wanted this. Jaya and Vijaya will go to the material world for three lifetimes in their manifestation forms and, at the same time, they will remain in the spiritual world in their original forms. I will perform pastimes of vira-rasa with them in the material world."

Citraketu Maharaja was in the same position, and Bharata Maharaja, who was in the position of rati (bhava-bhakti), never fell. These devotees performed pastimes of 'falling down' only to give lessons to jivas like us.

Similarly, Narada Muni also performed a pastime in which he appeared to have he become bewildered. He once conquered Kamadeva, Cupid, and after that he proudly thought, "Even my Guru, Sankara, ran after Maya. When he saw Mohini, having forgotten that it was Krsna who had become Mohini, he became like a madman and ran after 'Her.' His deerskin fell off as he ran, and he kept running even though he had become naked. Parvati came and asked him, 'What are you doing?!' but he remained unaware of her presence and continued running after Mohini. But Kamadeva (Cupid) came to me, and he could not do anything."

Narada then went to Sankara and told him, "I have conquered Kamadeva," then he went to Brahma told him the same thing, and then he went to Lord Narayana and told Him the same. Narayana saw that false ego, like a disease, had now come to Narada, and He thought, "I will remove this disease by an operation. His disease is like piles, and he will not be cured of it without My performing an operation." He replied to Narada, "You are My best devotee. I'm very proud of you."

Later, as Narada was returning to this universe, he saw a very, very beautiful kingdom, and he saw a king and his only daughter. That girl was extremely lovely and, in wonder, Narada considered that he had never seen such beauty before. He went to the king and said, "I want to see her future." He then took the hand of that princess in his, and thought, "How can I marry this girl?" After seeing her hand, he went away and began to meditate on his Prabhu, Lord Narayana. Narayana at once appeared in his meditation and asked, "What do you want?" Narada prayed, "O, please help me. I want to marry that girl. Please give me a form which is as beautiful as Yours." Narayana replied, "All auspisciousness to you. All benedictions to you. I will do what is best for you."

Narada now thought that Narayana had fulfilled his desires and given him a form similar to His own, with a very beautiful face, and he was satisfied. He returned to the King, and at that time that girl was having a svayambhava ceremony, the function in which a princess chooses her husband. She took a very beautiful garland and she was preparing to garland to the man who most attracted her, after which they would be married. Narada kept walking wherever that girl walked, showing his face to her and hoping she would give him the garland. Although she looked disgusted and went to another place whenever she looked at him, Narada still followed her everywhere to attract her attention. In the meantime, one of the associates of Sankara told him, "Oh, you are so beautiful." Narada thought the associate of Sankara was telling the truth, but actually he was joking and ridiculing him. In the meantime, Lord Narayana Himself came to that place on Garuda, and when the girl saw Him, she put the garland around His neck. Then, without a minute's delay, Narayana took her on His lap, on Garuda, and quickly flew away.

Narada thought, "He is a very wicked person. I have served Him without any desire. Only this once did I have a desire. I wanted to marry this girl, and I asked for His beautiful face. I should see what face I have." Narada saw in a mirror, or in water, that he had the face of a black Indian monkey, like a baboon - and he became completely disturbed. He at once flew to Vaikuntha, and there he saw that very girl sitting where Laksmi usually sits. Narada then told Narayana, "You have cheated me. I curse You that You will weep, as I am weeping for this lady." In the meantime Narayana took away His maya, and Narada saw that the girl was actually Laksmi. Narayana said, "I performed this operation only to remove your false ego and pride." Narada then fell flat at Narayana's feet and apologized. This incident became the cause of Lord Ramacandra's appearance.

This pastime was manifest by Krsna, or Narayana, through the agency of Yogamaya, only to give instructions to all jivas. We should not think that Narada fell from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, and was covered by maya. By the wish of Krsna, devotees can do anything to fulfill the desires of their Prabhu. We should understand that jivas cannot fall from Goloka Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

[Raghunatha Bhatta dasa:] Why does the living entity have minute independence?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] He always has independence, whether he is here or there. This is because he is cit, not acit, and this is the symptom of cit-pardarta (the conscious entity). He always has independence, whether he is here in bondage, or there in the spiritual world.

[Raghunatha Bhatta dasa:] The living entity has a choice to go to Goloka, using his independence. If he has no sadhu-sanga at the tatastha region, how will he know what is maya and what is Krsna? How will he know where to go?

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] Krsna is very powerful, and He wants that all should come to Him and serve Him in the spiritual world. He never wants anyone to be separated from Him and be unhappy. He wants the jivas to desire to be with Him; so He wants to arrange anything favorable and for them to go to Him - as He did in Brhad Bhagavatamrtam. Krsna knows everything. If He sees that a jiva has some little desire there to serve Him, and he is sincere, He will arrange that he can go to the spiritual world and be with Him there. But each jiva is independent. If he misuses his independence, then he will go down to the material world. If he looks towards the spiritual world from the tatastha region he will go there by the help of Yogamaya, and if he looks towards the material world, he will come to the material world under the influence of Mayadevi.

Gaura premanande

[* Karanbdhi pare mayara nitya avasthiti / virajara pare paravyome nahi gati. The Viraja, or Causal Ocean, is the border between the spiritual world and material worlds. The material energy is situated on one shore of that ocean, and cannot enter onto the other shore, which is the spiritual sky."

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

Here in this Bhagavatam purport, Srila Prabhupada explains that the source of all the living entities in this material world is Paramatma:

Similarly, the all-pervading Supersoul, Paramātmā, is the source of all living entities, and all living entities are part and parcel of Him.

The source of all the living entities in this material world is Paramatma, not Goloka.

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

sarva-bhūta — in all living entities; ātma — the Supersoul; vigraham — having form.

Did you catch that one kiddies?

All living entities have form in the Supersoul.

I know it is over the heads of most of you, but our original form was in the Paramatma. Not separately, but in the Supersoul we had form until we became disintegrated parts of the Supersoul by the will of the Supreme.

Then we became separated parts and parcels.

Now, go back to the playground and eat your pablum!! :eek2:

Guruvani · May 10, 2007

sarva-bhūta — in all living entities; ātma — the Supersoul; vigraham — having form.

Did you catch that one kiddies?

All living entities have form in the Supersoul.

I know it is over the heads of most of you, but our original form was in the Paramatma. Not separately, but in the Supersoul we had form until we became disintegrated parts of the Supersoul by the will of the Supreme.

Then we became separated parts and parcels.

Now, go back to the playground and eat your pablum!! :eek2:

muralidhar_das · May 10, 2007

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Bhāgavatam 4.12.5

tad gaccha dhruva bhadraḿ te

bhagavantam adhokṣajam

sarva-bhūtātma-bhāvena

sarva-bhūtātma-vigraham

SYNONYMS

tat — therefore; gaccha — come; dhruva — Dhruva; bhadram — good fortune; te — unto you; bhagavantam — unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; adhokṣajam — who is beyond the concepts of material senses; sarva-bhūta — all living entities; ātma-bhāvena — by thinking of them as one; sarva-bhūta — in all living entities; ātma — the Supersoul; vigraham — having form.

TRANSLATION

My dear Dhruva, come forward. May the Lord always grace you with good fortune. The Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is beyond our sensory perception, is the Supersoul of all living entities, and thus all entities are one, without distinction. Begin, therefore, to render service unto the transcendental form of the Lord, who is the ultimate shelter of all living entities.

PURPORT

Here the word vigraham, "having specific form," is very significant, for it indicates that the Absolute Truth is ultimately the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is explained in the Brahma-saḿhitā. Sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ: [Bs. 5.1] He has form, but His form is different from any kind of material form. The living entities are the marginal energy of the supreme form. As such, they are not different from the supreme form, but at the same time they are not equal to the supreme form. Dhruva Mahārāja is advised herewith to render service unto the supreme form. That will include service to other individual forms. For example, a tree has a form, and when water is poured on the root of the tree, the other forms — the leaves, twigs, flowers and fruits — are automatically watered. The Māyāvāda conception that because the Absolute Truth is everything He must be formless is rejected here. Rather, it is confirmed that the Absolute Truth has form, and yet He is all-pervading. Nothing is independent of Him.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

That's an interesting quote.

I haven't seen it before.

THanks.

muralidhar_das · May 11, 2007

Vigraha, you almost never answer the questions you are asked.

Will you answer this one question of mine.

According to your philosophy nobody falls down from Vaikuntha, they merely enter into a dream of material existence. Further, in the spiritual world there is no passage of time, so the aeons of time that a soul who is dreaming he is in Maya spends feeling different types of suffering, that period of time has no real duration. This is what I understand you are saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

What I want to ask is this: those souls who are in Vaikuntha who are dreaming about material existence, do they experience a feeling of suffering? They observe "themself" being born as a mosquito or dog and they experience getting killed millions of times. Do these souls in Vaikuntha having this material dream feel any suffering?

Devarsirat · May 11, 2007

If they do and feel all this, then that is not possible. I have never ever read that this is happening there and its a total speculation. The people who say that we are still in vaikuntha are dreaming an impossible dream.

What is happening to them, how have they become so speculative?

We never read about anything like this and yet they are propagating it and even make fun of those who understand the philosophy properly.

So here they are in this world, thinking themselfes to be in Vaikuntha where no one can even have a bad dream. There is no maya so how can maya enter their dream?

Forget it lads, wakey wakey!! :sleep:

Devarsirat · May 11, 2007

Is our good old Iskcon preaching these things?

From the GBC?

Is that what is going round and preached in the classes?

If yes then things have really degenerated.

muralidhar_das · May 11, 2007

If they do and feel all this, then that is not possible. I have never ever read that this is happening there and its a total speculation. The people who say that we are still in vaikuntha are dreaming an impossible dream.

What is happening to them, how have they become so speculative?

We never read about anything like this and yet they are propagating it and even make fun of those who understand the philosophy properly.

So here they are in this world, thinking themselfes to be in Vaikuntha where no one can even have a bad dream. There is no maya so how can maya enter their dream?

Forget it lads, wakey wakey!!

Well said, Prabhu

But I still want Vigraha to give me a clear answer to this question

ys,

Murali

We All Originated From Goloka

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