We All Originated From Goloka

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna. I personally heard Srila Prabhupada describe what follows and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of creation and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru .

 

 

The Material Dream that is real but temporary and exists in one corner of the Spiritual Sky and is called the mahat-tattva

 

 

 

 

No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget Krishna as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

 

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

 

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Bhativinode Thakur “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

Srila Prabhupada- “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world.But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming stateafter we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation , we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

 

 

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

This separate extention of the nitya siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition. Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

 

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”.

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”.

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned phenomenon, or dream given fascility by th dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada continues – “Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming”

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupadais the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because -

 

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

 

 

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith DEVOTIONAL SERVICE and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna. I personally heard Srila Prabhupada describe what is above and I suggest the above is should read again and again to understand and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srlia Prabhupada .

[Guest guest]

 

 

The mahat-tattva is real but temporary.

 

 

In Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, the actions, thoughts and dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee's are all real, are all on the same level of reality. This is hard for us to understand from our dimensional platform of consciousness because we are governed by past, present, future, decay and forgetfulness while our consciousness (jiva-sakti) is restricted to the mahat-tattva. On the absolute level every dream and thought is as real as ones deeds. Even in the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva, where ones life force (jiva-sakti) is confined to an ethereal body in a sub-space dimension of the mahat-tattva, ones thoughts and deeds are on an equal footing. The heavenly realm or atmosphere is completely different from our secular condition on this gross material planet where the ethereal or subtle body that houses the jiva consciousness, is further restricted and restrained by a biological vessel.

So how are we to understand that our dreams are also real and transmitted as a conscious state or living force we call the jiva-sakti?

The answer to that is our dreams are non-different from the vigraha body that is transmitting them, the only difference being is when one is devotionally serving as their full potential bodily self, they are Krishna Conscious dreams and deeds of loving service to Krishna, when not, such dreams, that are real, are transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud in the same Spiritual Sky existing in one corner that is just as real as the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of the Spiritual Sky except, unlike the rest of Krishna’s perpetual creation unaffected by the concept of past and future, is a temporary phenomenon controlled by time, past, present, future, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age and death.

This means that the dreams we have in our atma-vigraha body, unlike the dreams we have in our biological bodies, are very real and have substance and form called the jiva-sakti that becomes contained in ethereal and biological bodies provide by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva. Eventually such dreams fade and change over time (the jiva-sakti or life force always remains the transmitted consciousness despite these changes) due to the temporary nature of the vessels one’s jiva consciousness is confined to. The life force or jiva-sakti therefore become further entangled within the cycle of birth and death within the mahat-tattva or material manifestation. Such mahat-tattva (material) time of past, present and future only exists in the mahat-tattva, where ones extended life force of dreams (jiva-sakti) can only be fulfilled by Maha-Vishnu who offers the visiting dreams (jiva-sakti) ethereal and biological bodies or vessels for there journey within the mahat-tattva, so their independent non-Krishna conscious dreams can be expressed. The jiva-soul is real and such extended life force (jiva-sakti) emanating from Goloka-Vrndavana, is in this way transferred to the mahat-tattva. In this way the jiva-sakti can appear as a jiva spark, a seed distributed by Maha-Vishnu as He glances over His mahat-tattva creation or even a spark of inactive consciousness called tatastha.

From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti (living force or life force) may also fall from the tatastha conscious condition as a spark of conditioned consciousness (jiva-bhutah transformation of the life force or jiva sakti, from its dormant conscious state called tatastha-s’akti) however, from the bigger picture of creation outside of the mahat-tattva, Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation.

Ones secondary conscious projection or extension of the life force jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva or jiva-bhutah) can only manifest as a spiritual spark AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. The jiva-sakti is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha condition of consciousness situated as a single unit with unlimited others in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman. The secondary creation is a phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the vigraha devotee’s in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the atma-vigraha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotees of Krishna) in the past.

The nitya-siddha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form (marginal due to the characteristics of free will to increase ones love for beautiful Krishna) is constitutionally a perpetual personal bodily form (vigraha) emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body.

Krishna is the Supreme Vigraha body from whence His entire marginal vigraha devotee’s commence. There is also a second part to ones marginal disposition that allows one to activate a facet of their consciousness that does not include Krishna, this second-rate extended conscious phenomena (jiva-sakti) is a further expression of the nitya-siddha devotee’s marginal characteristic, but can only take up residence in the mahat-tattva (material universes) because such consciousness cannot exist in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. The secondary extension of the life force (jiva-sakti) therefore can only exist due to the absence of Krishna Consciousness, just like darkness can only exist due to the absence of light. The non-Krishna conscious dreams of the perpetual nitya-siddha devotee, in this way emanates as a secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) while the nitya-siddha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form never leaves Goloka because of perpetual time factor.

 

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”.

These mistaken self centered choices or none Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen”, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming condition of consciousness. This is a very important point to try and understand.

 

Srila Prabhupada “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being fallen from our position in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha but Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen, our rasa body actually goes nowhere and is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because we are simply in a dreaming condition’.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

 

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

 

Srila Prabhupada "A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly." Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply sub-conscious choose to do ‘our own thing’ and drift off into same self made dream, turning our back on Krishna and forgetting the perpetual rasa body we serve Krishna as.

The nitya-siddhas are distinguished as separate expansions of the Lord's bodily Self, and because some of them desire to be lords and imitate the Supreme Lord, He allows them to enter into the mahat-tattva (not as their rasa body as clearly explained) with the option to fully utilize their propensity to lord it over nature.

 

Because of the presence of His parts and parcels, the nitya-siddha’s secondary conscious state enters phenomenal world (mahat-tattva) and are stirred into action and reaction when provide the ethereal and later the further covering of the biological vessel, that allows them to act out their desires in. Thus the living entities or nitya-siddha’s, as their secondary ‘non-Krishna conscious self’ (JIVA-SAKTI), are given full facilities to lord it over material nature, but the ultimate controller is the Lord Himself in His plenary features as Maha-Vishnu, the creator of the mahat-tattva and Paramatma, the Supersoul, who is one of the puruṣas is always with the embodied life force or jiva sakti transferred from their perpetual rasa body in Goloka.

There is a gulf of difference between the living being and the controlling Lord (Paramātmā), the soul and the Supersoul. Paramātmā is the controller, and the atma-vigraha is the controlled; therefore they are in different categories. Because the Paramatma fully cooperates with the atma-vigraha, He is known as the constant companion of the living being. The all-pervading feature of the Lord — which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force or life force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls — is known as Brahman. Since the Lord is the origin of both Paramatma and Brahman, He is the origin of all living entities and all else that exists. One who knows this engages himself at once in the devotional service of the Lord. Such a pure and fully cognizant devotee of the Lord is fully attached to Him in heart and soul, and whenever such a devotee assembles with similar devotees, they have no engagement but the glorification of the Lord's transcendental activities

 

 

 

 

Our time is so long in the mahat-tattva that we forget we originated from Vaikuntha,

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada explained that our time is so long in the mahat-tattva that we forget we originated from Vaikuntha, so much so, that many great devotees explain that our origins into this world to be from the tatastha state of the life force, jiva-sakti or jiva-tattva’s individual consciousness, as so many quotes from Jiva-Gosvami, Sri Thakur Bhaktivinoda, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada repeatedly explain however, from the bigger picture of creation outside of the viewpoint of the mahat-tattva, which the Vedas mostly detail discuss, Srila Prabhupada, who represents all the previous Acharyas has clearly stated we did not originate from tatastha condition of consciousness. Srila Prabhupadas preaching success speaks for itself, no-one before him, not even Lord Chaitanya Himself, spread the teachings of Krishna-Chaitanya so far and wide to every corner of the planet as Srila Prabhupada did.

Srila Prabhupada, who is the present bonefide representative of all previous Acharyas, tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state from a previous mahat-tattva creation and before that, maybe a long, long, long time before that, we were with Krishna. There is no beginning or end to the creation, which means there is no origin to the marginal vigraha devotee’s.

The nitya-siddha personality, identity and form refer to ones original Krishna Conscious perpetual rasa body that is always there in Goloka-Vrndavana (Gods Kingdom) and can never fall down.

Only ones dreams and desires that don’t include Krishna, instantaneously formulates the perceptible secondary altered-state sub-consciousness called the jiva-tattva or jiva-bhutah which is the fallen state of the marginal consciousness emanating as dreams from ones rasa body, IF one chooses to be independent of Krishna and simultaneously the original marginal rasa body they perpetually serve Krishna as – its all based on what ones consciousness is absorbed in, either serving Krishna, or chasing ‘dreams’ of self importance and selfish desires.

These are the two main states of consciousness, one is perpetual in ones Krishna Conscious imperishable form as one’s rasa body, the other is tormented with being covered by perishable material bodies (ethereal and Biological) that manifest within the mahat-tattva. There is a third state called tatastha that originates from the second state after being in and eventually liberated from the mahat-tattva.

[Guruvani]

this quote from the above post is a fraud, fabrication and distortion.

In other words it's a deceitful lie on the part of the author of the fraud essay that is being presented in this topic.

 

This is a lie.

Bhaktivinode never wrote this:

 

 

Bhativinode Thakur “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

[Guruvani]

This Vigraha person is so impersonal and deceitful that he refuses to have any dialogue or discussion with other members of the forum.

He just keeps plastering his fraudulent thesis on the fall of the jiva over and over again and refuses to have a single conversation with any member of the forum.

 

I think this kind of impersonal propagandist should be banned from the forum.

 

Nobody should be allowed to just come the forum and plaster up propaganda and refuse to have any dialogue with other members who are trying to have a discussion beyond this propaganda campaign to propagate this false doctrine of the fall of the jiva.

 

The forum won't be losing anything.

He just plasters up propaganda and refuses to discuss or debate personally with other members.

 

I think the person has most definitely got a mental problem as well as a severe lack of knoweldge of Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Prabhupada never wanted the Krishna consciousness movement to be a personality cult centered on him with indifference to shastric authority.

 

Prabhupada does not stand alone as an authority.

His teachings must have a shastric base or otherwise they cannot be substantiated.

 

Prabhupada didn't manufacture some new version of the siddhanta.

But, these fanatic cultists are preaching as if he did.

[Guest guest]

 

 

How is it one can forget Goloka-Vrndavan?

 

 

The following is a pastime (Lila) of the great sage Narada-Muni that took place walking with Krishna outside the walls of Dwarka in Goloka-Vrindavan. Krishna was about to teach Narada a valuable lesson about the powerful effects of Maya (forgetfulness)

 

Narada Muni, a great Devotee of Lord Krishna, was once walking outside the perimeter of Dwarka (one of Krishna’s great Palaces) with the Lord. As they walked, Narada asked Krishna,

 

“How is it one can forget such a beautiful place as Goloka-Vrndavan? ‘How could a devotee forget Krishna and end up in the temporary material world in an ethereal (heavenly) or biological (earthly) body?”

 

Narada looked at Krishna in total ecstasy and bliss wondering how anyone could leave such beauty. He was confused, as he new the material universe was full of souls, who all were previously with Krishna in their only genuine eternal form that is perpetually endowed with an imperishable identity, personality and individuality, who did exactly that – forgot Krishna and their own real identity by turning their back on Him and manufacturing so many counterfeit identities, personalities and forms outside of Goloka-Vrindavan within the temporary material universe, how could this happen?

 

As they walked through the forest, a young girl caught Narada’s attention; she was struggling to carry two buckets of water near a well. Out of pity, Narada went over and offered his helping hand to the struggling girl; she gladly accepted his offer, as she was exhausted. Gladly and compassionate Narada Muni carried the two buckets of water and proceeded to the girls’ destination at a nearby Village.

 

On the way there, the simplicity and innocents of this beautiful young girl was so sweet and captivating that Narada was speechless in her association.

 

She broke the silence by explaining she was the daughter of the Village elder and her father was a great leader and devotee of Krishna. Narada, however was so captivated by the girl’s sweet voice, flowing long hair and colourful sari, he was not listening. He was totally dumbfounded in her presents.

 

When they arrived at the Village, the girl introduced her new friend to her father. He was very impressed by Narada’s qualities, and thought this man must be a great devotee of Lord Krishna.

 

He immediately further thought ‘what a nice husband this young man would make for my daughter’ The Village elder felt obligated to reward Narada for his service.

 

All the Villagers gathered around thinking Narada must be a great Sage and suggested the best reward for him was the village elder’s daughter in marriage. Narada Muni was so attached and comfortable with the girl that he accepted the offering!

 

The wedding day arrived and everyone in the surrounding area came. The Village Brahmin’s (priests) performed the fire yajna (purification ceremony) and many gifts were given. After the marriage Narada and his new wife settled in performing various duties.

 

Narada eventually became the Head Master of the Gurukula (school). In due course his wife fell pregnant with their first child. A boy was born and the Village was ecstatic, celebrating late into the night. As time went on, Narada’s happiness increased being with his family and living in the Village, he never had a worry in the world. Over the years he was bestowed another six children. He enjoyed watching them grow, becoming educated and playing sporting games with them. All his children were adorned with beautiful qualities.

 

Twenty years had passed, his father in-law, the Village elder, passed away suddenly due to illness; everyone was saddened and would only accept Narada as the new Village elder.

 

Many more years passed and he eventually gave permission to a young boy to marry his daughter. Everything was so perfect, so peaceful. Narada was totally satisfied with his wife, children, grandchildren and all the wonderful people in the Village.

 

Then one day an enormous storm came to the Village, pelting heavy rain with strong winds that destroyed houses.

 

Narada decided he must immediately evacuate the Village, but it was too late, flooding had made it impossible to escape. The storm became more intense, the water level was rising fast and raging torrents destroyed everything in its path.

 

Narada frantically searched for his wife, children, grandchildren and friends, He found himself trapped on a plank of wood in the raging torrents looking everywhere through the hail, wind and ragging water for his wife, but new she must have been washed away by the flood. His son in law and daughter also found a plank of wood attempting to ride out the storm however, it only got worse and they eventually lost their footing and also perished.

 

Then to Narada’s amazement he saw two of his young grand children high up in a tree holding on to dear life. Narada reached out to them screaming,

 

“Just hold on to me, give me your hand and I will save you!”

 

They reached out and at the same time a huge wave overpowered all of them, frantically Narada searched through the water screaming out for his grandchildren, but they also had perished. He continued calling out,

 

“Don’t leave me, just hold on somehow, don’t leave me!”

 

Then he also perished in the flood

 

At that exact moment, Narada felt a tap on the shoulder, he slowly opened his eyes still lamenting and wanting to be with his family. He found himself sitting against a well; again Narada yelled out in bewilderment,

 

“Where is my family?”

 

Then realized the tap on the shoulder was from Krishna standing next to him. Krishna laughed and said,

 

“You wanted to know how powerful Maya (forgetfulness) was, so I showed you. You have been sitting against that well for no more than a moment!”

 

Coming to his senses, Narada says to Krishna,

 

“You mean all that experience, my wife, my children, my friends, my wealth, my fame, my followers, the Village, was a dream?”

 

Krishna replies,

 

“No, it is all real but everything outside my Kingdom is impermanent, your entire experience was a lesson to show you how easy it is for a devotee in Goloka-Vrindavan, who is eternally liberated, until they choose not to be as you have just done, to be captivated by Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) and fall to a temporary body of forgetfulness birth, disease, old age short memory and death to experience the impermanent nature that exists only within My material universe outside My Eternal abode of Goloka Vrindavan/Vaikuntha.

 

In My Spiritual Universe, there is no death, however as soon as you chose to forget Me and help the girl, you were immediately transferred to My material universe and experienced the fleeting forgetful nature of the transitory universe, including death by drowning.

 

This is because you were attached to something other than loving devotional service to Me; (Krishna or God) you chose to turn your back on me just for a moment to help the young girl and became captivated by your own selfless compassion to help her, so much so you forgot Me! That moment seemed like a lifetime.

 

Genuine selflessness is doing everything for My pleaser and you, along with others, simply become inattentive. Many of my devotees experience this illusion like you have as Lila (pastime), so I can teach them a valuable lesson however, others who first choose turn their back on me, eventually become attracted to the flicking beauty of Maya, unfortunately they can remain in the material universe forgetting their true form, identify, personality and individuality for almost what appears to be an eternity, transmigrating through many millions of counterfeit bodies in their search for so called happiness.

 

Enough is never enough in the material universe.

In the material world, this is like chasing after a mirage in the desert that only appears real, but in reality is only an illusion. The impermanent universe is both real and an illusion because it is transitory.

 

This is what temporary ethereal (heavenly or hellish) and biological (earthly) bodies in the material universe are like, they all end in disappointment because they fade away because everything one has accumulated and worked so hard to achieve is lost and ultimately forgotten – everything just fades in time.

 

Conditioned souls who are trapped in the material universe experience that ‘moment of being away from my Kingdom’ as billions upon billions of life times in billions of different bodies that seem like an eternity, so much so, many foolishly come to believe the Impersonal inactive effulgent Brahmajoyti, or bright light, which is the motionless effulgence of trillions of individual jivas surrounding My body, is the starting and ending point of their existence.

All of them have forgotten their real form and relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrindavan

 

This is very difficult to understand without My favour because it is very complicated for you to understand the eternal stage on which all this illusion within the impermanent material universe is unfolding.

 

In actual fact, all of those jivas were once like you and had a personal intimate relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrindavan, they still do, but have temporally forgotten.

 

As in your case of sitting against the well and captivated by absent-mindedness just for a moment, the consciousness of those who choose to leave My Personal abode and their real form, identity, personality and individually have also become forgetful, leaving behind their original form, just as you did Narada, in Goloaka-Vrindavan. On leaving your true identity you then fabricate numerus counterfeit forms, identities and personalities like one does in a dream at night.

 

Some in this way transfer their consciousness to the material universe, as your consciousness had just experienced, to peruse their back on Me and pursue their own interests.

 

In actual fact there is no beginning or ending point of the jiva, this Impersonal conclusion by some lost souls, which includes many learned Vaisnavas and caste Goswamis (My devotees), have miss understood their eternal relationship with Me that is always there in Goloka-Vrindavan, even if they have forgotten.

 

Their idea that the soul originates from the Brahmajoyti is due to the long association they have had within many fleeting bodies within the temporary universe, being trapped within forgetfulness and sensual identity and association for so, so long, that they have forgotten their original form, identity, personality individuality and selfless devotional love in their eternal relationship with Me as you, Narada, have just done.

 

Even a great devotee like you should never underestimate the power of My Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) if you choose first to enter Her domain”!

 

( What is Maya? Maya: - forgetfulness, illusion, ‘that which is not’, a personality who controls the impermanent energy, i.e., the ethereal (heavenly and hellish) and biological (earthly) container the soul manifests, as well as the mental delusions suffered by the forgetful jiva after leaving the Kingdom of God. Maya’s duty is to make sure no one disturbs Krishna by offering the aspiring devotees wealth, riches, beauty (female or male), and knowledge of the celestial technological heavenly realms and technologically earthly realm as a test to see what one really wants.)

 

Human civilizations throughout the centuries have repeatedly attempted to build a permanent existence as well as prepare their present bodies with wealth and belongings to take with them into a heavenly ‘after-life’ where they believe they will live forever, why this is not possible in this temporary world will be fully explained in this thesis.

 

From the beginning of time, so many cultures have tried to prepare, with their inherent instinctual belief in an after life, to enter a Perpetual Kingdom of God. They unfortunately mistakenly come to believe that this transitory universe, with its heavenly rewards, is their real home (Explained later when explaining the heavenly planets within the interim creation in higher levels of the material universe existing in a non-biological sub-space dimension).

 

All things must pass

 

The attempt to achieve happiness, love and sensual pleasures in an impermanent atmosphere will, in due course, frustrates an intelligent human being because; in the end, all they have worked so hard to build up over their lifetime is all taken away. Whatever material acquisitions built up over their lifetime eventually wears out and erodes away.

 

Ultimately they loose everything anyway as forgetfulness, disease, old age and death over comes them. The phenomenon of death, also known as ‘forgetfulness’, is an abnormal state the jiva or individual life force is overcome by while traveling in and identifying with the outward biological human bodily garment or vehicle while contained in the temporary universe.

The attempt to build a perpetual blissful home on earth in a biological body, or in heaven in a non-biological ethereal body is not possible because everything eventually breaks down and fades away in the impermanent material universe.

 

Even in the heavenly planets, that are rewards for Jains, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Jews and most branches of Hinduism, due to their performance of penance and austerity, exists only a temporary celestial manifestation within the boundaries of the material universe where one can live for thousands of years but also must pass on.

 

Only jivas who fall from the Brahmajoyti, having first originally previously first fallen from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavan long, long, long before they mistakenly accepted the Impersonal Brahmajoyti as their origins, have to start their active existence from the beginnings of biological life.

 

Only after billions of life times, do they unfortunately make their way to the Brahmajoyti. They do not know or remember how they were introduced or originally fell from Goloka-Vrindavan/Vaikuntha to the temporary universe in the first place and foolishly believe the Brahmajoyti is both the source of their existence and liberation.

 

Unfortunately the separation of the individual jiva from Krishna’s Personal abode has been so long a period of time they foolishly believe their origins are the Brahmajoyti. These jivas, who think they have originated from the Brahmajoyti, first manifest an ethereal body that stays with them for as long as they exist in the impermanent universe. From that ethereal body all other insubstantial and biological forms are projected.

 

Coming from the Brahmajoyti means these embodied jivas have to start their active existence from the most basic form of life first attained after leaving that effulgent light. From there the now embodied jiva has to go through the billions of biological bodily mapped out by evolution until the human body is again attained.

 

It must be made clear this extremely lengthy process is only for the jivas who have previously merged there identity, individuality, personality and form into a minute spark of individual living light and therefore have entered or merged themselves (individual spark) into the brightness of the Impersonal Brahmajoyti, have to start off at the very basis of biological life when they again re-emerge from their Impersonal slumber.

 

Impersonalism is a very dangerous philosophy to follow and is often referred to by devotees of Krishna as Spiritual suicide.

 

The Impersonal effulgence or Brahman is where unlimited other ‘inactive jivas’ exist and vibrate their form impersonally as individual living sparks of light that collectively make up what is also known as the Impersonal Nirvana. All of them who enter the Brahmajoyti, except for some rare Impersonalist yogis, have to start at scratch (entering the body of a microbe) when they eventually desire activity and fall out of that Impersonal sense of oneness.

 

Followers of Lord Buddha and the Jains practice sever penance and austerities attempting to free themselves from karma. Their austerity however, has the side effect of accumulating pious karma that allows them entry into the heavenly planets.

 

These higher dimensional supernatural worlds, known as the heavenly planets, exist in sub-space which are a insubstantial manifestation of the temporary material energy where the ethereal non-biological body, that is temporary but not material (lifeless energy), contains the eternal jiva or soul and resides separate encased in the ethereal living body apart from that lifeless sub-space-matter that the sub-space heavenly and hellish planets are made of.

 

In this thesis it should be made clear the words material and matter is lifeless substance or energy. In other words we do not live in a material body but rather we live in an ethereal body that further creates a biological covering. Matter and material refers to the lifeless by products left over by the embodied jivas once they vacate the biological body.

 

Both the jivas ethereal bodies or containments and the surrounding sub-space lifeless material energy are not generally perceived by the embodied ‘jivas projected biological containments’ that the ethereal body eventually manifests as a further extension of the ethereal body.

 

The biological restraint or body covers the ethereal body and resides in a dimension like our earthly planet that is called secular space that is far more gross and solid than sub-space matter however, both realities are material where as the ethereal body and its extended biological body are not material.

 

The ethereal body in material sub-space is also called the supernatural-realm; where as the biological containment in secular-space is called the natural-realm. Both the natural and the supernatural are not spiritual; they are different dimensions within the material realm.

[Vigraha]

 

 

Why is this so difficult for so many to understand?

 

 

 

 

Simple answer, they all think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and the chanting of Hare Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada has described what follows on other posts I have made and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of our existence in the material world.

In this way we can all defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's and pollute innocent aspiring devotes who follow their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA. All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru

Dear friends, if you want to enjoy with your materialistic friends, then don`t visit the place near Kesi-ghata. Don`t see the Deity of Krsna, known as Govinda, as He stands attractively in His three-fold bending form, sweetly smiling and casting captivating side-long glances as He holds His flute to His ruby red lips and wearing a peacock crown.

 

 

 

I humbly ask all aspiring devotees to try and understand the following shatric knowledge and bonafide facts explained by Srila Prabhupada.

All of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forget their biological body they are dreaming from.

In a similar way, but on the absolute level and not the mundane biological level, ones thoughts and dreams are as real as ones actions, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah conditioned state), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are broadcasted as sub-conscious dreams as a life force we call the jiva-sakti that is then transferred to the dreams (in the nitya-baddha lower self condition) of Maha-Vishnu and expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. Maha-Vishnu through his various representatives offers the visiting jiva-sakti consciousness various bodily vehicals so they can come into the mahat-tattva or material creation from the outside, which is the surrounding Vaikunthas where there genuine perpetual rasa body exists.

This material creation is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the nitya-siddhas whether you believe it or not.

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires.

Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to sub-consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

Above is the mahat-tattva where Maha-Vishnu's dreams are similtaniously the dreams of the conditioned souls or the nitya-siddhas secondary consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is transferred into the maha-tattva originating from the surrounding Vaikunthas

 

 

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1></st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Name </st1></st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

 

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

 

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

 

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

 

In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

 

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

 

There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted KingdomKrishna.

 

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious body). As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition

 

 

The Material Dream that is real but temporary and exists in one corner of the Spiritual Sky and is called the mahat-tattva

 

[Guruvani]

If this Vigraha nut-job thinks that anyone is reading his bogus nonsense posts he is very wrong again, just as his thesis is bogus nonsense speculation that only a couple of losers on the planet my actually pay attention to.

 

I can assure you Vigraha that nobody is reading your bogus thesis.

It's just the speculative rambling of a foolish neophtye who doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

 

This kind of impersonal propaganda should be banned from the forum and deleted.

[Guest guest]

 

 

The mahat-tattva is real but temporary.

 

 

In Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, the actions, thoughts and dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee's are all real, are all on the same level of reality. This is hard for us to understand from our dimensional platform of consciousness because we are governed by past, present, future, decay and forgetfulness while our consciousness (jiva-sakti) is restricted to the mahat-tattva. On the absolute level every dream and thought is as real as ones deeds. Even in the heavenly planets within the mahat-tattva, where ones life force (jiva-sakti) is confined to an ethereal body in a sub-space dimension of the mahat-tattva, ones thoughts and deeds are on an equal footing. The heavenly realm or atmosphere is completely different from our secular condition on this gross material planet where the ethereal or subtle body that houses the jiva consciousness, is further restricted and restrained by a biological vessel.

So how are we to understand that our dreams are also real and transmitted as a conscious state or living force we call the jiva-sakti?

The answer to that is our dreams are non-different from the vigraha body that is transmitting them, the only difference being is when one is devotionally serving as their full potential bodily self, they are Krishna Conscious dreams and deeds of loving service to Krishna, when not, such dreams, that are real, are transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud in the same Spiritual Sky existing in one corner that is just as real as the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of the Spiritual Sky except, unlike the rest of Krishna’s perpetual creation unaffected by the concept of past and future, is a temporary phenomenon controlled by time, past, present, future, impermanence, forgetfulness, birth, disease, old age and death.

This means that the dreams we have in our atma-vigraha body, unlike the dreams we have in our biological bodies, are very real and have substance and form called the jiva-sakti that becomes contained in ethereal and biological bodies provide by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva. Eventually such dreams fade and change over time (the jiva-sakti or life force always remains the transmitted consciousness despite these changes) due to the temporary nature of the vessels one’s jiva consciousness is confined to. The life force or jiva-sakti therefore become further entangled within the cycle of birth and death within the mahat-tattva or material manifestation. Such mahat-tattva (material) time of past, present and future only exists in the mahat-tattva, where ones extended life force of dreams (jiva-sakti) can only be fulfilled by Maha-Vishnu who offers the visiting dreams (jiva-sakti) ethereal and biological bodies or vessels for there journey within the mahat-tattva, so their independent non-Krishna conscious dreams can be expressed. The jiva-soul is real and such extended life force (jiva-sakti) emanating from Goloka-Vrndavana, is in this way transferred to the mahat-tattva. In this way the jiva-sakti can appear as a jiva spark, a seed distributed by Maha-Vishnu as He glances over His mahat-tattva creation or even a spark of inactive consciousness called tatastha.

From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti (living force or life force) may also fall from the tatastha conscious condition as a spark of conditioned consciousness (jiva-bhutah transformation of the life force or jiva sakti, from its dormant conscious state called tatastha-s’akti) however, from the bigger picture of creation outside of the mahat-tattva, Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation.

Ones secondary conscious projection or extension of the life force jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva or jiva-bhutah) can only manifest as a spiritual spark AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. The jiva-sakti is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha condition of consciousness situated as a single unit with unlimited others in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Impersonal Brahman. The secondary creation is a phenomena created by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu that gives a reality to the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the vigraha devotee’s in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Both the dreams of Maha-Vishnu and the atma-vigraha devotee’s originate from the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) that has been a mystery to even many great Vaishnava’s (devotees of Krishna) in the past.

The nitya-siddha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form (marginal due to the characteristics of free will to increase ones love for beautiful Krishna) is constitutionally a perpetual personal bodily form (vigraha) emanating/surrounding Krishna beautiful body.

Krishna is the Supreme Vigraha body from whence His entire marginal vigraha devotee’s commence. There is also a second part to ones marginal disposition that allows one to activate a facet of their consciousness that does not include Krishna, this second-rate extended conscious phenomena (jiva-sakti) is a further expression of the nitya-siddha devotee’s marginal characteristic, but can only take up residence in the mahat-tattva (material universes) because such consciousness cannot exist in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. The secondary extension of the life force (jiva-sakti) therefore can only exist due to the absence of Krishna Consciousness, just like darkness can only exist due to the absence of light. The non-Krishna conscious dreams of the perpetual nitya-siddha devotee, in this way emanates as a secondary consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) while the nitya-siddha devotee’s authentic perpetual bodily form never leaves Goloka because of perpetual time factor.

 

Srila Prabhupada -. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our none Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer”.

These mistaken self centered choices or none Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen”, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming condition of consciousness. This is a very important point to try and understand.

 

Srila Prabhupada “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation”

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being fallen from our position in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha but Srila Prabhupada explains that in reality we are not fallen, our rasa body actually goes nowhere and is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because we are simply in a dreaming condition’.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krishna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ."

 

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

 

Srila Prabhupada "A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called Maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly." Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply sub-conscious choose to do ‘our own thing’ and drift off into same self made dream, turning our back on Krishna and forgetting the perpetual rasa body we serve Krishna as.

The nitya-siddhas are distinguished as separate expansions of the Lord's bodily Self, and because some of them desire to be lords and imitate the Supreme Lord, He allows them to enter into the mahat-tattva (not as their rasa body as clearly explained) with the option to fully utilize their propensity to lord it over nature.

 

Because of the presence of His parts and parcels, the nitya-siddha’s secondary conscious state enters phenomenal world (mahat-tattva) and are stirred into action and reaction when provide the ethereal and later the further covering of the biological vessel, that allows them to act out their desires in. Thus the living entities or nitya-siddha’s, as their secondary ‘non-Krishna conscious self’ (JIVA-SAKTI), are given full facilities to lord it over material nature, but the ultimate controller is the Lord Himself in His plenary features as Maha-Vishnu, the creator of the mahat-tattva and Paramatma, the Supersoul, who is one of the puruṣas is always with the embodied life force or jiva sakti transferred from their perpetual rasa body in Goloka.

There is a gulf of difference between the living being and the controlling Lord (Paramātmā), the soul and the Supersoul. Paramātmā is the controller, and the atma-vigraha is the controlled; therefore they are in different categories. Because the Paramatma fully cooperates with the atma-vigraha, He is known as the constant companion of the living being. The all-pervading feature of the Lord — which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force or life force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls — is known as Brahman. Since the Lord is the origin of both Paramatma and Brahman, He is the origin of all living entities and all else that exists. One who knows this engages himself at once in the devotional service of the Lord. Such a pure and fully cognizant devotee of the Lord is fully attached to Him in heart and soul, and whenever such a devotee assembles with similar devotees, they have no engagement but the glorification of the Lord's transcendental activities

 

 

 

 

Our time is so long in the mahat-tattva that we forget we originated from Vaikuntha,

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada explained that our time is so long in the mahat-tattva that we forget we originated from Vaikuntha, so much so, that many great devotees explain that our origins into this world to be from the tatastha state of the life force, jiva-sakti or jiva-tattva’s individual consciousness, as so many quotes from Jiva-Gosvami, Sri Thakur Bhaktivinoda, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada repeatedly explain however, from the bigger picture of creation outside of the viewpoint of the mahat-tattva, which the Vedas mostly detail discuss, Srila Prabhupada, who represents all the previous Acharyas has clearly stated we did not originate from tatastha condition of consciousness. Srila Prabhupadas preaching success speaks for itself, no-one before him, not even Lord Chaitanya Himself, spread the teachings of Krishna-Chaitanya so far and wide to every corner of the planet as Srila Prabhupada did.

Srila Prabhupada, who is the present bonefide representative of all previous Acharyas, tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state from a previous mahat-tattva creation and before that, maybe a long, long, long time before that, we were with Krishna. There is no beginning or end to the creation, which means there is no origin to the marginal vigraha devotee’s.

The nitya-siddha personality, identity and form refer to ones original Krishna Conscious perpetual rasa body that is always there in Goloka-Vrndavana (Gods Kingdom) and can never fall down.

Only ones dreams and desires that don’t include Krishna, instantaneously formulates the perceptible secondary altered-state sub-consciousness called the jiva-tattva or jiva-bhutah which is the fallen state of the marginal consciousness emanating as dreams from ones rasa body, IF one chooses to be independent of Krishna and simultaneously the original marginal rasa body they perpetually serve Krishna as – its all based on what ones consciousness is absorbed in, either serving Krishna, or chasing ‘dreams’ of self importance and selfish desires.

These are the two main states of consciousness, one is perpetual in ones Krishna Conscious imperishable form as one’s rasa body, the other is tormented with being covered by perishable material bodies (ethereal and Biological) that manifest within the mahat-tattva. There is a third state called tatastha that originates from the second state after being in and eventually liberated from the mahat-tattva.

 

Thanks for this understanding. I believe the above speaks for itself. Guruvani and others have no idea whats really going on. Srila Prabhupada also said that when dogs bark, you don't bark with them, not that I'm calling anyone a dog, it's just an interesting comment. Anyway I think you have made Prabhupadas' stand exceptionally clear. Hare bol!! Many devotees are following this thread and your posts have made it easier to understand our fall down into the material world from Vaikuntha. Jai Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

This whole thesis is lies, distortions, fabrications and deviations from the proper Gaudiya siddhanta and has no shastric basis.

 

It's just the mental concoctions of a foolish person who is simply making himself look like a fool to any devotee who reads the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

it's rubbish. it has not shastric basis and is a distortion of the teachings of Srila Prabhupada.

 

This thesis portrays Goloka as a hellish place where pure devotees are falling down like flies to become worms in stool.

 

It'a all a horrendous offense against Lord Krishna and Srila Prabhupada.

 

It's pathetic that ISKCON is preaching this kind of idiotic nonsense.

[Guruvani]

This thesis is such rubbish that the true author won't even show himself and is posting under a fictitious name so that he can trash the siddhanta without being held personally responsible.

 

The author is such a fool and such a coward that he hides behind a false identity like some snake hiding under a rock.

[Guest guest]

BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA has written on the nature of jiva as follows:

 

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him. The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment. (From 'Brahmana & Vaisnava')

------

 

There is only one siddhanta in our disciplic succession, ant the above referenced quote captures it perfectly.

 

Following the GBC vote on the "jiva's fall issue", Pradyumna Swami and his followers maintain that Prabhpada changed that siddhanta by claiming we fell from the spiritual planets.

[Guest guest]

BRHADARANYAKA UPANISAD states the following about the marginal position of the jiva:

 

tad yatha maha matsya ubhe kule'

nusancarati purvam ca param caivam

evayam purusa etav ubhav antav

anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca

 

"Just as a large fish living in the river wanders from one bank to the other, so the jiva is of similar quality, and is equipped to wander in the Karana waters between the material and spiritual worlds (svapnanta and buddhanta)." (Brhadaranyaka Upanisad 4.3.18)

 

JIVA GOSVAMI writes in his commentary to Sri Brahma-samhita 5.21 and quotes Sri Narada-pancaratra:

 

yat-tatastham tu cid rupam sva-samvedyad vinirgatam

ranjitam guna ragena sa jiva iti kathyate

 

"Although spiritual and conscious by nature, the jiva lives on the border between the spiritual and material worlds. When it chooses to enter the material world, it becomes contaminated by the modes of nature. That is said to be the spirit soul."

[Guest guest]

 

 

The Dream<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget Krishna as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

 

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada- “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

 

This separate extention of the nitya siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact

“Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”

He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

 

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”.

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious phenomenon, only a dream.

 

Srila Prabhupada continues – “Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming”

 

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

 

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

 

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupadais the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith DEVOTIONAL SERVICE and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Your either with Prabhupada or against him. The choice is yours

[Guruvani]

sthis thesis is just forgeries and fraud.

 

none of these so-called quotes of Srila Prabhupada are verified or referenced.

 

these fools will even go so far as to forge false statements of Srila Prabhupada to prove that these ISKCON gurus haven't been preaching false siddhanta for the last 30 years.

 

it's forgery!

It's lies and distortions.

 

The fool who is behind these forgeries is such a coward that he won't even reveal his true identity.

[theist]

Guruvani, why always so hysterical? You sound like your kaupin is in a bunch and choking your testicles. Sheesh.

 

First you should see if any or all of those quotes are verifiable. Then if and when you can prove your accusations then you can freak out.

 

This can be prevented if we are careful to cite referrences when quotng the acaryas.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

 

The writings of all previous acharyas are all important and must be reconciled with the sampradaya siddhanta.

 

Just like with the ritviks, you Goloka-sleeper-vadis are inventing a new apasiddhanta, claiming to be the only proper disciples of Prabhupada. I see the same narrowmindedness and lack of grounding in our sampradaya siddhanta. You think it all starts and ends with Srila Prabhupada when in fact our sampradaya goes all the way to Lord Brahma. He would be ashamed reading such bogus claims of his disciples.

[Guruvani]

 

Guruvani, why always so hysterical? You sound like your kaupin is in a bunch and choking your testicles. Sheesh.

 

First you should see if any or all of those quotes are verifiable. Then if and when you can prove your accusations then you can freak out.

 

This can be prevented if we are careful to cite referrences when quotng the acaryas.

I am not hysterical.

It's just that this thesis presentation is not fair, open, honest or sincere because the person behind it is hiding in his closet and posting bogus siddhanta on the internet and making Srila Prabhupada look like a renegade of the Gaudiya society preaching all sorts of concocted nonsense that can be found no place in the authorized shastra.

 

this person is not honest or sincere or he wouldn't post all this rubbish anonymously. he would be open and straight forward and would be willing to stand behind his rubbish thesis.

 

instead, he lurks in the shadows like a goblin spouting off nonsense and manufacturing all sorts of bogus philosophy in the name of Srila Prabhupada.

 

It's obvious that the person doesn't believe in this rubbish that he is spouting off or he wouldn't be ashamed to stand behind it and admit who he is in the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

Because the coward spouts off nonsense anonymously, we can come to no other conclusion than he is just being mischievous at the expense of the name and reputation of Srila Prabhupada.

 

99% of his thesis is just fabrication and concoction.

I have never seen so much bogus preaching in my life as what this fool is spouting off here on this forum anonymously like a coward and a wimp.

[muralidhar_das]

Vigraha has not answered the simple question I asked him, which is on the bottom of page 5

 

Vigraha, perhaps you missed this simple question. Please answer it

 

I wrote:

 

-------------

Vigraha, you almost never answer the questions you are asked.

 

Will you answer this one question of mine.

 

According to your philosophy nobody falls down from Vaikuntha, they merely enter into a dream of material existence. Further, in the spiritual world there is no passage of time, so the aeons of time that a soul who is dreaming he is in Maya spends feeling different types of suffering, that period of time has no real duration. This is what I understand you are saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

What I want to ask is this: those souls who are in Vaikuntha who are dreaming about material existence, do they experience a feeling of suffering? They observe "themself" being born as a mosquito or dog and they experience getting killed millions of times. Do these souls in Vaikuntha having this material dream feel any suffering?

[Guruvani]

 

 

Just like with the ritviks, you Goloka-sleeper-vadis are inventing a new apasiddhanta,

well, thats more bogus propaganda because there are known breaks in the physical succession of the Gaudiya sampradaya which as a sampradaya does not obey or conform to the actual formal traditions of the sampradaya that it claims to be descending from.

 

the physical-succession-vadis are actually makers of a false siddhanta that really has no shastric basis either.

 

the vapu-vadis are more of a deviation from the sampradaya system than is the siksha-guru proponents that are sometimes referred to as "ritviks".

 

physical succession vada is a serious mutilation of the principle of succession and sampradaya.

 

physical succession vada has the same failure rate as ritvik vada, so there is plenty of proof that there is no magic in physical diksha ceremonies.

 

physical succession vada is a serious distortion of the process of spiritual diksha.

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

The Final Absolute Proof: The Jiva Consciousness Did Fall From There Svarupa Body in Goloka

 

 

The wonderful Srimad Bhagavatam or Bhagavat-purana tell us that the Kingdom</ST1> of<ST1> Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes and so called time is in the eternal present where their is no past or future.

 

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

 

This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, devotional ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

 

 

Perpetual Vaikuntha means nothing there can decay perish or disappear, therefore everyones never ending bodily form or svarupa body is already there and never leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha.. <O:P<O:P

 

 

 

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies of material grandur.

 

 

Such desires DREAMS and thoughts that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

 

<O:PIn a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from.

 

 

In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

 

<O:PKeep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

 

 

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires.

 

 

Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones Krishna Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna.

 

 

 

 

For ones conscious awareness to remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious.

 

 

In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious 'conditioned' state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires.

 

Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity.

 

 

 

This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the PERISHABLE mahat-tattva that is a real phenomenon in the Spiritual Sky yet temporary.

 

 

 

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

 

<O:PSuch dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

<O:P

In a comparable way to understand this, when ones dreams or thoughts are not <ST1:PKrishna conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition or "conditioned state" brought about by ones NON-Krishna Conscious desires and DREAMS.

 

This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary and housed in ethereal and eventually biological bodies provided by Maha-Vishnu. These bodily suits enables the visiting jiva-sakti consciousness to enter the enclosed atmosphere of the mahat-tattva or material creation, just as a space suit allows one to enter the realms of outerspace out of our earthly atmoshere.

 

In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to fading. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

 

<O:POnes sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

 

<O:PThere is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <ST1>Kingdom of </ST1><ST1>Krishna. Krsnaloka or Vishnuloka

<O:P

 

 

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah, jiva-tattva, jiva-sakti etc, etc) is extended or projected to the mahat-tattva or material universe.

 

 

In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha or nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body).

 

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna.

 

Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur away from beautiful Krishna is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

[Beggar]

 

 

 

 

Perpetual Vaikuntha means nothing there can decay perish or disappear, therefore everyones never ending bodily form or svarupa body is already there and never leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha.. <o>

</o><o></o>

 

 

 

 

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur says in his speech the Bhagavat, "No thought is useless. Thoughts are means by which, we attain our objects. The reader who denounces a bad thought, does not know that a bad road is even capable of improvement and conversion into a good one." The basic conception given in the above quote is not in itself bad. To say that the the bad thing about it is that it is part of an appasiddhantic theory is true on several levels no doubt but at the same time we cannot say that such a thought is meritless and is not worth discussing. But how can there be an open discussion when both sides are ready to go to war over the issue? The contradiction of the war-like stances and a so-called discussion forum are perhaps another topic but they seem somehow together. The main flaw of all the Goloka is the origin theories is that it expects us to entertain the absurd notion that the eternal worshipable associates of the Lord leave His association and service (whether in form or dream). They can't see that if that would be true then the parishads of the Lord would be unworshipable. Therefore there would be no reason to worship the pure devotees or the spiritual master, except in the sense that the mayavadis perform such worship. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama parama mama. Once having returned no one falls again. But how would we know who that was? And since we are in, or dreaming that we are in the material world, then since we have the potential to return then we would be in a sense in a superior position to the those who had never fallen. Most intellegent persons who were even academicians and philosophers who studied Gaudiya Vaisnavism would never accept the Goloka origin theory just based on this alone and in fact they don't. The phrase, "back to godhead", is now known worldwide by many Vaisnavas who have no real connection with Prabhupada's line. Kundali Prabhu in his treatise "Not Even a Blade of Grass Falls From Vaikuntha" explains how one can have a home where he can return, yet he has never really been there before. Suppose the king is one's father, and the queen was kidnaped while pregnant, later she gives birth and the son becomes like a street beggar. When the king eventually learns of the whereabouts of the son, he may implore the son to return home. The kings palace is in fact the son's real home although he has never been there except in seed form. There is one famous quote of Srila Prabhupada on this issue where he seems to be explaining just this point in a letter. Prabhupada created a big mission in the West and needed many "trained" servitors. Srila Sridhar Maharaja said that many of those that Prabhupada engaged were not actually Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Yet Sridhar Maharaja would always say that, "a man is known by our ideal". We may in fact not really be Gaudiya Vaisnava's, proper, but we can at least accept the siddhanta of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Now at this point I may seem to be contradicting myself, because I seem to be drawing a line in the sand. I am saying that some do not even accept the Gaudiya siddhanta and those on the other side see us as disloyal to Prabhupada or unable to see his unique position. But it just doesn't make sense that he would be so unique as to be so different on the issue of the origin of the soul as his own guru. Especially this must be true in light of the fact that he was constantly saying that he was just a messenger, repeating the message of his spiritual master. How could it be so different? It just doesn't make sense. But the Pradyumna Swami-ites expect us to believe their twist on the issue, just because Prabhupada said it. But we think that he didn't really say it, we think that he was just trying to accomodate those trapped in the dualism of Judeo-Christian thought and those who were mostly practical persons who didn't think about things very deeply but did most of the work to keep his movement going. I thought that in 1972 after being in ISKCON for just a year and I think it today and our viewpoint was confimed by Srila Sridhar Maharaja in the early 1980's. Every adjustment that an acarya makes to preach Krsna Consciousness comes at a risk. Still I don't think that Srila Prabhupada would be pleased at the misconceptions being spread in his name.

[theist]

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

 

Perpetual Vaikuntha means nothing there can decay perish or disappear, therefore everyones never ending bodily form or svarupa body is already there and never leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha.. <o>

</o><o></o>

 

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

 

 

From what I heard this is the agreed upon fact by Vigraha and co. Due to the absence of time there is no fall. When one is in his Krsna conscious service position he is Nitya siddha. When he is dreaming he is nitya baddha. The fall is only apparently real to the dreaming jiva. Once awakened that same jiva that is in his original position and is still nitya siddha.

 

This is one part of the argument that the opponents of Vigraha and co.'s argument that is continually missed.

 

One may of course not accept this but to ignore it means you are not really in the debate with Sarva gattah , Vigraha & co. but are instead creating a strawman to burn down again and again.

 

I would like to add another question to this debate.

 

again:

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

 

Perpetual Vaikuntha means nothing there can decay perish or disappear, therefore everyones never ending bodily form or svarupa body is already there and never leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha.. <o>

</o><o></o>

 

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> In the above quote Prabhupada says the svarupa body IS ALREADY THERE.

 

How do those that say that the soul has never been in Goloka or Vaikuntha address this aspect of this quote? Are you not saying that new souls are continually appearing anew in Vaikuntha and Goloka which goes directly against the above quote.

 

The way I see it the above quote gives weight to Sarva gattah, Vigraha & co's side of the debate.

 

 

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

 

The way I see it the above quote gives weight to Sarva gattah, Vigraha & co's side of the debate.

 

 

It's not a quote from Srila Prabhupada. It is merely Viagraha's assertion. And it is false.

[Guest guest]

 

PRABHUADA HAS ON MANY OCCASIONS REFERRED TO OUR MATERIAL EXISTENCE AS A DREAM. Gurvani seems to be getting quite upset, his probably having a bad DREAM. One day he will reawaken his originally Krishna Consciousness and wake up back in is his rasa body and see that the mahat-tattva creation of the sleeping maha-Vishnu, is a place where all our mundane dreams go because they cannot stay in Vaikuntha.

 

This is probably true now that I can understand the our fall down from Vaikuntha. The fall down from Vaikuntha makes more sense.

[Guest guest]

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

 

Perpetual Vaikuntha means nothing there can decay perish or disappear, therefore everyones never ending bodily form or svarupa body is already there and never leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha.. <o>

</o><o></o>

 

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

 

 

From what I heard this is the agreed upon fact by Vigraha and co. Due to the absence of time there is no fall. When one is in his Krsna conscious service position he is Nitya siddha. When he is dreaming he is nitya siddha. The fall is only apparently real to the dreaming jiva. Once awakened that same jiva that is in his original position and is still nitya siddha.

 

This is one part of the argument that the opponents of Vigraha and co.'s argument that is continually missed.

 

One may of course not accept this but to ignore it means you are not really in the debate with Sarva gattah , Vigraha & co. but are instead creating a strawman to burn down again and again.

 

I would like to add another question to this debate.

 

again:

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

 

Perpetual Vaikuntha means nothing there can decay perish or disappear, therefore everyones never ending bodily form or svarupa body is already there and never leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha.. <o>

</o><o></o>

 

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> In the above quote Prabhupada says the svarupa body IS ALREADY THERE.

 

How do those that say that the soul has never been in Goloka or Vaikuntha address this aspect of this quote? Are you not saying that new souls are continually appearing anew in Vaikuntha and Goloka which goes directly against the above quote.

 

The way I see it the above quote gives weight to Sarva gattah, Vigraha & co's side of the debate.

 

 

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

Theist from what I have read of Vigraha and co, I think you mean the dreaming consciousness is nitya baddha and the svarupa body is nitya siddha