We All Originated From Goloka

[theist]

 

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We had the same debate about the origin of the soul in the Miami temple during the summer of 1972. Some of the devotees were of one opinion on the subject and some of the other. I think at that time if we could look 35 years into the future and saw that devotees were obsessively (ourselves for God's sake) arguing and becoming bitter about this issue then we would have been very shocked and suprised. Your personal story about Srila Prabhupada is very sweet, indeed. When we are "back" with Krsna, no matter how the word back is viewed or understood, then none of this will have any significance. Hare Krsna

 

Yes and the lesson must be learned or this will still be happening 35 years from now.

[Devarsirat]

‘Now you can put the paintings back on the wall and always remember that I am always at the feet of Radha and Krishna, next time you clean, put the paintings on a chair and not on the step of the Vysa-sign, one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna”

 

Ok nice but I interprete from this, that one day I will also understand, my miserable condition in this material world and see that Krishna has been with me within my heart from the very beginning, so I can surrender to Him....no?

 

This was certainly a very nice occassion you experienced with Srila Prabhupada and something very beautiful to cherish, but it is by no means something that can be taken as a proof that you are right now in Goloka dreaming your present self.

 

Prabhupada has not written like this and therefore it is not like this. Prabhupadas books are sastra and His spoken words and letters and classes, are preaching according to time and circumstance.

 

If we are right now in Vaikuntha or Goloka dreaming all this, then Srila Prabhupada would have written like this a lot. There would have been descriptions and excamples e.g.

 

It is not something that Srila Prabhupada would have left out, so please spare me your personal purports and give me bonafied sastric references from Srila Prabhupadas books.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Theist,

 

Do you really want to represent a stance that says that sastra can be twisted any which way and that for true guidance one should follow their heart? (or in your words - listen to Paramatma)? Actually, with that scenario anything can and does get said - it denigrates the sastra and puts personal revelation above sastra, which is Krsna in written form. Exactly how will one be able to tell if any persons 'revelation' is valid and not just their fertile imagination or a drug induced psychosis? Without the balance of sastra then anyone can try to pass off anything as 'revealed' truth. That is an untenable thesis and I would think that one who goes by the name Theist would think this out a little bit better.

 

Did you bother to look in the Bhaktivedanta Veda base for the entries where Srila Prabhupada explains that the three authorities - Guru, Sadhu and sastra must be in accord with one another? I would guess you don't have to do that because you already know how strongly Srila Prabhupada stressed this point. Every heard of Bhagavad Gita 'As it is'? Why do you think Srila Prabhpupada went to so much trouble translating and commenting on sastra?

 

As far as preaching to neophytes goes - that is a fact regardless of whether you accept it or not. Trying to teach a person about Bhakti who has none is like trying to talk to a deaf person. Srila Prabhupada was a master at getting people engaged in Krsna consciousness. What do you think is meant by time, place and circumstance? Do you think that a professor of math will try to explain advanced concepts to a beginner?

 

In fact Krsna is our origin since everything is coming from him. But even in scripture we find that words cannot really convey axiomatic truths and often poetry is used to convey an idea or to enhance a feeling. First there was Krsna and he desired to taste rasa so he manifest as two - Radha and Krsna. Do you think that verse from CC is talking about some distant point in time? some time when Radha did not exist?

 

You may not believe it, but scripture is very clear on the fact that the conditioned soul has been so eternally. In the course of creation, anilhilation, creation - obviously the world is manifest at one point and not manifest at another. From a state of Susupti says the sastra, a state of suspended animation where the jivas are in a more or less undifferentiated state - they become manifest. This state of Susupti can be roughly equated with the Brahmajoyti and I suspect that this is what Sridhara Maharaja was referring to when he mentioned the Brahmajoyti as the origin of the jiva.

 

Karma is anadi - beginnningless - so says the sastra. Those under the spell of maya who live in the land of action and reaction are controlled by karma and they have been in that condition forever. That might not sit well with your mind but that is, in fact, what the sastra says. The reason that we accept some parts of sastra and not others has to do with our conditioning. The other thing is that sastra is difficult to understand and we need good guidance in order to reconcile so many things that sastra has to say. But make no mistake, that requires realization - it is not for the neophyte who is under the spell of maya. It is not a matter of good intellect. That is why Prabhupada said (and so does sastra BTW) that what we need to ascertain the truth is Guru, Sadhu and Sastra.

[Guest guest]

 

Chanting dancing and feasting is sufficient for total Krsna conscious realization.

 

It appears that you missed his point. Most of us took up the chanting without awareness of the 10 offenses and so many other instructions on how to rise above the offensive stage into the clearing stage, and ultimately into the suddha nama stage. Lord Caitanya's 8 slokas which comprise Sri Siksastakam explain how to rise to the offenseless stage. And even those verses have been elaborately commented upon by various Acaryas such as Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. If we fail to understand these instructions and take them to heart, we remain on the offensive stage. The Sri Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu also gives detailed instructions for developing our bhakti so that we can learn to chant without offense. So, Beggar is correct; we are told that in the beginning that all we have to do is chant, dance, and feast. But obviously there are numerous detailed instructions beyond simply "chanting, dancing, and feasting."

 

Swami B.B. Vishnu has written:

In the beginning we are told to simply chant the Holy Name, dance in front of the Deities and take lots of prasadam. As we become more attracted and simultaneously convinced of the validity of the process we naturally inquire further. Then we find that we must follow so many more instructions to assure our proper advancement in Krsna consciousness. Experiencing the higher taste of the Holy Name and the association of devotees, a sincere sadhaka will naturally wish to follow these instructions.

 

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu recommends that the five most important processes of devotional service are

 

sadhu-sanga, nama-kirtana, bhagavata-sravana

mathura-vasa, sri-murtira sraddhaya sevana

 

 

“One should associate with devotees, chant the holy name of the Lord, hear Srimad Bhagavatam, reside at Mathura and worship the Deity with faith and veneration. (Cc. Madhya 22.128)

 

Also, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, has written in the introduction to the Nectar of Devotion (a summary study of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu) that, "Without initiation by a bona-fide spiritual master, the actual connection with Krsna consciousness is never performed." One should understand that it is essential that anyone serious about taking up the process of Krsna consciousness, do so under the direction of a bona-fide spiritual master.

 

So, as anyone can plainly see, there are many detailed instructions to be learned and taken to heart after one initially accepts the process of "chanting, dancing, and feasting."

[muralidhar_das]

 

The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters are all as equal as each other.

Numerous devotees have pointed out that what Srila Prabhupada said must be viewed in consideration of the "Guru, Sadhu, Shastra" principle.

 

When Narada told the hunter "if you kill animals then kill them outright, don't leave them half-killed", was Narada promoting animal slaughter? No.

 

We were told it is OK to have sex for procreation, but then it is also said that it is better not to have sex at all. Which path is the proper path, no sex or occasional sex?

 

Srila Prabhupada also said "chant sixteen rounds" but in Sri Caitanya Bhagavata we read this:

 

prabhu bale,-"jana, 'laksesvara' bali kare?

prati-dina laksa-nama ye grahana kare"

Caitanya-bhagavata Madhya Khanda 9.121-122

Here is the commentary of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati to this verse:

 

sri gaurasundera balibena - "jini pratidina laksanama grahana

karibena, tanharai grhe bhagavan sevita hana."

Sri Gaurasundara spoke as follows - "The Supreme Personality of Godhead accepts service only in the home of those who chant one hundred thousand names daily.

"one hundred thousand names" is 64 rounds.

When I received Harinama from my Guru Maharaj he told me I could chant 64 rounds or more each day. 16 if I am busy. He mentioned that Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had said 16 rounds is advisable. If there are many things to do we can chant 4 rounds.

I like to chant 64 or more rounds. Chanting 2 lakhs or Sri Nama (128) is really beautiful but it takes me ten hours to do that. However if one day I get told that I have terminal cancer I will stop everything else and chant 3 lakh Nama each day. Would this be doing what "Prabhupada says" to do? No. He taught differently. Yet it is what Sri Chaitanya likes, as we see in the case of Haridasa Thakura who chanted 3 lakh names.

Vigraha your ISKCON way of thinking and acting is not the only way that people can follow in order to go "Back to Godhead".

[Guruvani]

 

Numerous devotees have pointed out that what Srila Prabhupada said must be viewed in consideration of the "Guru, Sadhu, Shastra" principle.

 

When Narada told the hunter "if you kill animals then kill them outright, don't leave them half-killed", was Narada promoting animal slaughter? No.

 

We were told it is OK to have sex for procreation, but then it is also said that it is better not to have sex at all. Which path is the proper path, no sex or occasional sex?

 

Srila Prabhupada also said "chant sixteen rounds" but in Sri Caitanya Bhagavata we read this:

 

Here is the commentary of Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati to this verse:

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> sri gaurasundera balibena - "jini pratidina laksanama grahana

karibena, tanharai grhe bhagavan sevita hana."

Sri Gaurasundara spoke as follows - "The Supreme Personality of Godhead accepts service only in the home of those who chant one hundred thousand names daily.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

"one hundred thousand names" is 64 rounds.

 

So, in Krishna consciousness that is why we are actually offering service to the spiritual master and not unto the Lord directly.

 

Srila Prabhupada was the self-realized acharya and he accepts service that falls short of what is acceptable to Mahaprabhu himself.

 

We can't serve Mahaprabhu directly anyway.

He is much more pleased when we serve his his pure devotees.

 

So, anyone who doesn't chant 64 rounds a day is considered fallen.

Fortunately, Mahaprabhu is known as "Patita pavana" - the deliverer of fallen souls.

 

64 rounds a day is considered as liberated.

Mahaprabhu is the deliverer of the fallen.

 

So, there is still hope.

Especially, if we offer service to the pure devotee of the Lord instead of to the Lord directly.

 

the devotee of the Lord are more generous than the Lord.

So, that is why serving the pure devotees is more important and more helpful than attempting to offer something to the Lord directly.

 

In the end, we are more concerned with what is acceptable to the pure devotees than what is acceptable to the Lord.

 

Our success is in getting the mercy of the pure devotee, not in getting the mercy of the Lord directly.

 

Even Sridhar Maharaja approved 4 rounds a day if in fact the devotee was so engaged in service that he could not complete 16 rounds or 64 rounds.

 

So, the 64 round a day argument is moot, because we can't offer anything to the Lord directly, even if we manage to rattle off 64 rounds of Nama-aparadha a day.

[muralidhar_das]

KB I agree with you completely.

 

I only wanted to make the point that different instructions are given to different people and that what Prabhupada said to Madhudvisa about "crow-tal-logic" is not ABSOLUTE.

[Guruvani]

 

KB I agree with you completely.

 

I only wanted to make the point that different instructions are given to different people and that what Prabhupada said to Madhudvisa about "crow-tal-logic" is not ABSOLUTE.

 

Of course.

Srila Prabhupada was quite the sly fox when it came to tricking maya's clowns into doing some service with as little disturbance as possible.

 

I understand that as a follower of Sridhar Maharaja you cannot be suffering from any bogus siddhanta disease.

 

Just don't get too proud of having some personal sanga, or I will get jealous and find a way to make you look arrogant....:namaskar:

[muralidhar_das]

Guru Maharaj didn't claim to be infallible. He forgot my name, and couldn't remember me when I went to see him a week or so before his departure from this world. Guru Maharaj taught us to think and not to be blind believers.

 

Some people believe all the truths in the universe are written in some books. But according to Brahma Samhita the trees in Goloka can give us items such as aroti paraphenalia or anything else. Even a speck of dust in Goloka can give infinite ecstasy. Goloka is beyond our brain and beyond our imagination. And Guru Maharaj said that if we "expect the unexpected" then we will make progress --- the class of people who think they know everything and that there is nothing new to learn, those people don't allow themself to move forward and learn new lessons in the next classroom.

[Guruvani]

 

Guru Maharaj didn't claim to be infallible. He forgot my name, and couldn't remember me when I went to see him a week or so before his departure from this world. Guru Maharaj taught us to think and not to be blind believers.

 

 

It's always a bit awkward when a siddha-purusha comes to this mundane plane and tries to sprinkle a little nectar around.

 

There is never a perfect symbiosis between the siddha and the plane of mundane energy.

 

It's an awkward situation, but the nectar is always appreciated by us freaks of nature looking for drop of water on the desert of material eixstence.

 

It's hard to expect much from the guru when he is in trance and gazing into the infinite and we are asking him to give a little attention to the finite.

 

His infallibility was displayed by how he was so absorbed in the infinite that he was losing cognizance of the finite.

 

I am sure that after shedding his threads of the mortal coil that he became very attentive to all those whom have taken shelter of him.

 

He was showing how to ignore everything and everyone at the time of death and just focus on the infinite.

[muralidhar_das]

Beautiful thoughts.

 

thanks.

[Guest guest]

 

 

WE ALL ORIGINATED FROM GOLOKA

 

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The beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us that the perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by theimperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation. Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets; both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities or Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies where no material energy (Maha-Maya) can exist. The nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s (Krishna’s marginal potency) can never fall down as their bodily devotional self because of the perpetual uninterrupted nature of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is set in the eternal present beyond the concept of past and future.<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe divided by past, present and future and only 1/4 of creation)

This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees).

Ones secondary consciousness enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to their desires not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

 

 

Understanding the true origins of all living entities

 

This book is based on the teachings of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The difference between mental speculation and philosophical speculation is backing up ones realizations with quotes from Srila Prabhupada who is my Spiritual Master. Unless one engages in philosophical speculation, just how will one formulate relevant questions to place before their guru and search through his teachings for correct meaning and understanding? The difference between philosophical and mental speculation is conclusions based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings (books, tapes and letters) that is handed down to our society in the 21<SUP>st</SUP> Century giving the correct meaning and translations of all previous Acharayas.

Srila Prabhupada is the 32nd Spiritual Master in a line of disciplic succession that goes all the way back to Krishna. Srila Prabhupada, unlike all previous Acharayas, has spread the teachings of Lord Krishna and Sri Chaitanya to every corner of the globe. Due to his endeavours the chanting of Hare Krishna and the distribution of his books has reached every city, town and village around the world where Krishna has now become a house hold name.

Chanting Hare Krishna and engaging in devotional service will protect a sincere aspiring devotee as the cobbler was protected in the story of ‘the cobbler and the jnani’ (page ?) however there are also those sincere souls who may become disillusioned if they only follow the charisma of a particular Guru, Swami or general devotee when a philosophical crisis develops due to their sentimental understanding of Vedanta. Srila Prabhupada wanted all his disciples and grand disciples etc to study his books and learn HIS teachings and not simply become an un-knowledgeable follower in someone else’s religious plans, "Don't think, just do what you are told prabhu may have its place in helping some, but it is certainly not meant for everyone”, it is an old cliché that can be misused and deny one from their own personal realizations and natural Spiritual development and growth. This is also called being institutionalised.

If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism. One must study Srila Prabhupadas books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books. The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters.

The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures, although there is even great benefit in that. However the story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

 

I was once cleaning the Temple room in early 1973, in the process, I removed the paintings of the Panca-tattva (Lord Chaitanya and Nityananda and their associates) and Radha and Krishna down and placed them on the step of Srila Prabhupadas Vysa sign at the feet of Srila Prabhupadas’ photo on the Vysa sign because I did not want to put the painting on the floor.

As I continued cleaning, to my surprise Srila Prabhupada came in and on seeing the paintings on the step of his Vysa sign, began laughing and laughing and laughing in a serious yet surprised mood. Then he said,

“What is this?”

He was referring to the paintings of Radha and Krishna and the Panca-tattva sitting at his feet.

Srila Prabhupada then gently explained -

“I sit at the feet of Krishna and Lord Chaitanya, when you go back to Krishna, back to Goloka, you will understand.”

He then laughed again finding it humorous that one of his Western devotees would put the beautiful paintings of the Lord at the feet of their Spiritual Master

Srila Prabhupada had tears in his eyes as he began to start chanting japa while looking at the attractive painting of the Panca tattva and Radha and Krishna. (The curtains to the Dieties were closed)

Everyone else was out on Sankirtan except for the few devotees in the Kitchen. So there I was with Srila Prabhupada and no one else around in the Temple room. Srila Prabhupada said, after chanting for a few minutes -

“Radha and Krishna as Lord Chaitanya is very nice and so attractive’,

He then continued to laugh again as a father would laugh at the childish attempts of his young son to glorify him. What he was seeing I certainly could not see. Srila Prabhupada then started chanting japa in the temple room softly and I continued cleaning. When I finished the maintenance, Prabhupada then said in a humble chastising mood -

‘Now you can put the paintings back on the wall and always remember that I am always at the feet of Radha and Krishna, next time you clean, put the paintings on a chair and not on the step of the Vysa-sign, one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna”

For the next ten minutes we both chanted japa and then he payed his obeisances to Radha and Krishna, I payed my obediences to him and Srila Prabhupada went back to his room.

As a young 20 year old, the significance of his mercy was taken for granted, we had no idea of the significance of being pioneers in Lord Chaitanyas’ Movement in 1972 although we new that distributing Srila Prabhupadas books and chanting Hare Krishna on the streets in so many cities, towns was something very special. It was only thirty years later I began to realize how significant my association with Srila Prabhupada was, for me, I always believed we were once with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada personally confirmed that to me - “Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes” – Always chant Hare Krishna.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This thesis is attempting to understand how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

 

 

This separate version of the self is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

<u1:p></u1:p><U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear</U>. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes the point – <u1:p></u1:p>

“We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious phenomenon, only a dream. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada continues – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming” end of Srila Prabhupadas quote

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>The secondary extended conscious life force phenomena (jiva-sakti), emanating from ones own authentic perpetual rasa nitya-siddha bodily form (vigraha) in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha dominion, manifests due to its non-Krishna conscious nature. This jiva-sakti consciousness is transferred from Goloka and further facilitated or provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva creation. This cloud of the dreaming (the mahat-tattva) is also situated in the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (<st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) in one corner and is distinguished from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm by is phenomenal nature of impermanence and division of time. This has been a mystery to even many great Vishnavas (devotees of <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>) in the past in their attempts to try and understand the true origins of all living entities that enter that dark impermanent cloud in one corner of the Spiritual Sky (Brahmajyoti). <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti or the living force or life force (the extended consciousness of the nitya-siddha devotee in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti) may also fall from the jiva-tatastha conscious condition of spark like dormant consciousness that is situated between the Vaikunthas (Vishnuloka) and the mahat-tattva (the Impersonal aspect of Krishnas individual marginal consciousnesses or Brahmajyoti) however, from the bigger picture ofthecreation outside of the mahat-tattva and the thin Impersonal Brahmajyoti realm of marginal consciousnesses or dormant life forces (tatastha-saktis) separating the imperishable (Goloka) from the perishable (Vaikuntha), Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation and long, long, long, long before that our secondary consciousness was transferred or extended from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Brahmajyoti Spiritual Sky.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Ones secondary conscious projection</U> (jiva-bhutah) in this way can only manifest as a dormant spiritual spark (jiva-tatastha) AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. Such a dreamless conscious aspect of the life force (jiva-sakti) is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha condition of consciousness which is also the Impersonal extension of the Brahmajyoti we call the ‘Impersonal Brahmajyoti’. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>In this way we do not originate from tatastha or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti because JIVA-TATATHA CONSCIOUSNESS is a secondary conscious phenomenon transferred from ones rasa perpetual body in the beautiful Goloka-Vrndavana Spiritual sky or Brahmajyoti to the dark maha-tattva cloud in the same Spirtual Sky or Brahmajyoti as shown in the painting above. This may have to be read a few times to understand the real concept of Brahmajyoti and our authentic origins from Goloka. Only due to lack of real knowlege does one believe we originated from tatastha (the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti). All glories to Srila Prabhupada <!-- End - Right Container -->

 

 

This is exactly how Srila Prabhupada teaches, and explained in a simple way to understand - thanks for the insight

[Beggar]

 

Only due to lack of real knowlege does one believe we originated from tatastha (the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti).

What is the origin of the brahmajyoti? Obviously the origin of the brahmajyoti is Krsna because it is His effulgence. Krsna's expansions such as Baladeva, and Baladeva's expansions such as Sankarsana and Mahavisnu also have an effulgence. If everything is a person, then these effulgences are all made up of spiritual persons. But don't these spirtitual persons, jivas, function differently in the brahmajyoti than they do in the Vaikunthas were they are engaged in transcendental devotional service? How do the jivas come out from Bhagavan? Since we are prisoners of time and time measures motion, can we say that the act of manifesting the jivas by the Lord must according to some description have stages. In one stage the jiva would be unmanifest and another manifested. Some will object quoting Bhagavad Gita, Never was there a time that we did not exist... But which time is being referred to, could it be material time. Can the jivas be manifested by the Lord through his expansions in a condition beyond time.

If these points are true then perhaps the siddhanta on the origin of jiva is a construct within higher languages such as sanskrit translated in the crude language of Barbarians such as English. As crude as language is the siddhanta takes into account the worshipable position of the infallable soul [in=non--fall--able]. The conception of "back to godhead" takes into account the experiential reality. We will feel in our hearts that we have returned to our original home, this will be our experience. It takes upmost balance to tread the fine line between the transcendental experience itself and the expressions of spiritual truth in this realm. The Prabhupadites who maintain Vigraha's postion on the origin of the soul will receive incompletes and be eligible to take the class over.

[Vigraha]

 

 

"The material universe set aside in one corner of the Spiritual Sky is also for the nitya-siddhas non-Krishna conscious dreaming condition (nitya-baddha), that temporary cloud in the vast perpetual Spiritual Sky (25% of the creation) is created by Maha-Vishnu and is known as the mahat-tattva or the cloud for the dreaming"

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada: -"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there".

 

 

 

The mahat-tattva cloud of the dreaming

 

 

 

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe divided by past, present and future and only 25% of creation)

 

This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees).

 

Ones secondary consciousness (nitya-baddha) enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to ones desires and the choice not to be with Krishna as their devotional nitya-siddha-svarupa form or body.

 

 

 

 

Such disloyal dreams, thoughts, desires and choices are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ and transferred to the dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

This realm in the Spiritual Sky is the temporary material manifestation where ones secondary dream state or nitya-baddha consciousness, is provided counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Beggar]

<cite>Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)</cite> - Cite This Source pon·tif·i·cate /n. pɒnˈtɪfɪkɪt, -ˌkeɪt; v. pɒnˈtɪfɪˌkeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[n. pon-tif-i-kit, -keyt; v. pon-tif-i-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -cat·ed, -cat·ing. –noun <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">1.</td><td valign="top">the office or term of office of a pontiff. </td></tr></tbody></table> –verb (used without object) <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">2.</td><td valign="top">to perform the office or duties of a pontiff. </td></tr></tbody></table> <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">3.</td><td valign="top">to speak in a pompous or dogmatic manner: Did he pontificate about the responsibilities of a good citizen? </td></tr></tbody></table> <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">4.</td><td valign="top">to serve as a bishop, esp. in a Pontifical Mass. </td></tr></tbody></table>

<hr class="ety">[Origin: 1575–85; (n.) < L pontificātus; see pontifical, -ate³; (v.) < ML pontificātus ptp. of pontificāre to be an ecclesiastic; see -ate¹]

 

 

<cite>Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.</cite>

[muralidhar_das]

 

 

 

 

The mahat-tattva cloud of the dreaming

 

 

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe divided by past, present and future and only 25% of creation)

 

This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees).

 

Ones secondary consciousness (nitya-baddha) enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to ones desires and the choice not to be with Krishna as their devotional nitya-siddha-svarupa form or body.

 

Very interesting.

 

In the photo above, on the top left side you can see some guys getting blasted with fire coming out of the mouths of the Virata Rupa form of the Lord.

 

These barbecued people all used to be Gopis but they decided to enjoy life in the material world for a while.

 

What fun they are enjoying in the material world!

 

When they were all burned up their hair got very badly roasted. This event is the origin of the well known experience of having a bad hair day. Everything comes from Vaikuntha -- even bad hair days. But these barbecued people aren't really disturbed by any of this because in reality their Vigraha (Svarupa) Satchitananda Nitya Leela Eternal Form of Bliss and TRUE EVERLASTING SELF is somewhere else.

 

I think I should be somewhere else too.

[Guest guest]

The Final Absolute Proof: The Jiva Consciousness Did Fall From There Svarupa Body in Goloka

 

The wonderful Srimad Bhagavatam or Bhagavat-purana tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes and so called time is in the eternal present where their is no past or future.

 

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

 

This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, devotional ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

Perpetual Vaikuntha means nothing there can decay perish or disappear, therefore everyones never ending bodily form or svarupa body is already there and never leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies of material grandur.

 

Such desires DREAMS and thoughts that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe).

 

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from.

 

In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

 

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

 

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires.

 

Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones Krishna Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna.

 

For ones conscious awareness to remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious.

 

In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires.

 

Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity.

 

This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the PERISHABLE mahat-tattva that is a real phenomenon in the Spiritual Sky yet temporary.

 

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

 

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

 

In a comparable way to undderstand this, when ones dreams or thoughts are not Krishna conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition or "conditioned state" brought about by ones Krishna Conscious desires and DREAMS.

 

This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary and house in ethereal and eventually biological bodies provided by Maha-Vishnu that enables the visiting jiva-sakti consciousness in the eclosed atmosphere of the mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed.

 

Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s.

 

There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted Kingdom of Krishna. Krsnaloka or Vishnuloka

 

To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah, jiva-tattva, jiva-sakti etc, etc) is extended or projected to the mahat-tattva or material universe.

 

In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha or nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body).

 

As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna.

 

Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur away from beautiful Krishna is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana.

 

Hare Krishna. these are the facts, have a nice day

[muralidhar_das]

 

Hare Krishna. these are the facts, have a nice day

 

You too, buddy

 

But before you go, would you like to tell us your real name?

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Maha Vishnu the over Lord of the mahat-tattva and His Good wife Durga or Maya

 

 

Krishna or God is a perpetual ‘Bodily-Person’ and so are all of the individual marginal potencies (souls) that emanate/surround Him.

We hear from the Vedic texts that the Supreme Brahman or Brahmajyoti exhibits Krishna’s (God’s) effulgence, and therefore everything becomes illuminated. We can understand from Brahma-samhita that this Brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the Personal body of Lord Krishna.

 

Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls.

Even the terminology ‘originally manifested’ is incorrect because there is no beginning or end to Krishna or His marginal devotee’s. One thing is certain; all living entities that enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky have all originated from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, not as their perpetual devotional Krishna Conscious body, but rather as a transformation of consciousness caused by non-Krishna conscious desires.

All marginal sparks, souls, jiva's, atoms in the effulgence, potencies, energies etc are all individual bodily personalities that originally manifested as an eternally Krishna (God) Conscious devotional body or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. (Eternity, knowledge, bliss and svarupa form)

It is only when they (the marginal devotee’s as their authentic devotional body) foolishly transmit a 'secondary conscious phenomenon’ (jiva-bhutah) to the mahat-tattva (material universe), that such knowledge of their original service to Krishna in the transcendental body they really are, is temporarily lost (never severed due to their spiritual body being the source of their transmitted jiva bhutah consciousness) and the disease of Impersonalism (Mayavadism) and confinement to ethereal and biological vessels or bodies, overwhelms and traps their transferred secondary consciousness to the confines of the material temporary universe or mahat-tattva.

The unfortunate unknowledgeable view of believing our origins are from Impersonal origins even affects many great Vaishnava devotee’s like Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Swami, B.G. Narasingha and many others in the Gaudiya Math.

 

Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls.

 

Their understanding of the jiva or souls origins is simply incorrect. The fact is, we are all eternal person as a perpetual transcendental body and always have been that bodily form. We can either accept that Krishna conscious bodily origins, or we can deny that body and consciously transfer our desires, aspirations, dreams and thoughts to he mahat-tattva (impermanent material universe of self centered importance).

Ultimately Krishna’s ‘marginal-potency-bodily personalities’ are the Brahmajyoti!!

It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, may sometimes go on to ‘consciously’ (never as the body they are eternally, that is their true selfless devotional unique self) leave Krishna’s imperishable abode and enter the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a secondary non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti. Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud, can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist.

All the ‘individual bodily subsidiary sparks (vigraha’s) of the effulgence originating from Krishna’ are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha’s bodily personalities serving Krishna.

The mahat-tattva on the other hand, is also part and the parcel of the Brahmajyoti, and comes into existence due the dreams of Maha-Vishnu (the parcel or energetic) and simultaneously the non-Krishna conscious desires, aspirations, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entities (the part or energy) perpetually serving the either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana when they abandon that service. Without the part, (marginal) the parcel (Krishna) is not complete – without the marginal secondary transmitted consciousness emanating from the marginal living entities authentic bodily origins, Maha-Vishnu’s dreams within the mahat-tattva and incomplete.

 

Krishna and his marginal devotee’s are inseparable even when his marginal servants choose even when His marginal servants choose to extend their consciousness to a secondary existence away from the full potentialities of their own original devotional bodily identity.

Because Krishna is the Supreme Personality of God and the cause of all causes, He anticipates such choices of His marginal energy (vigraha’s). In other words, for Krishna to be complete, the marginal potency, including their secondary transmitted consciousness, actually make Krishna the absolute-whole or simultaneously one and different (acintya-beda-beda-tattva)

It is because Krishna allows individuality, He knows in advance that some will choose to reject Him and their own Krishna conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha body and apt for the secondary option which is the mahat-tattva or material universe.

For Krishna to be complete, He creates this secondary option via His Maha-Vishnu expansion (technically Maha-Vishnu is an expansion of Balarama who is Krishna’s brother). The mahat-tattva is created ironically out of love for His marginal vigraha devotee’s because He would rather they choice to love or serve Him than be like a slave or ‘mindless’ servant without free will.

 

Therefore one can stay in Krishna’s Autocratic Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm if they choose, or they can ‘consciously’ enter the impermanent mahat-tattva (never as their authentic bodily form as that body is perpetually part and parcel of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky).

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha.

The marginal potency or sparks emanating from the whole categorically means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form. Sometimes this is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from.

 

It’s only a metaphor, a allegory, a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and bodily form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire.

 

Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

In other words every living entity (marginal potency) has an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

As explained, it is important to understand that Krishna’s marginal potency bodily personalities are the Brahmajyoti!! It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, that a secondary non-Krishna conscious phenomenon may sometimes ‘consciously’ leave or be projected from their Krishna conscious authentic original bodily self within the imperishable abode of Krishna (Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha).

 

This is how the living entity (a secondary projected non-Krishna conscious self, enters or falls down to the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a inferior non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti existing in the mahat-tattva cloud.

Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud (never as ones authentic body that can never leave Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm), can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist.

All the ‘individual bodily marginal sparks (souls, jiva’s, living entities or life force) of the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna, are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or the Vaikuntha’s that is eternally glowing with individual personalities in perpetual devotional bodies.

It must be give emphasis to, that the mahat-tattva, also part of the Brahmajyoti, comes into existence due to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in partnership (the parcel and the part can never be separated) with the non-Krishna conscious desires, aspirations, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entities perpetually serving in either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana, when they foolishly desire to be the master instead of the servant.

All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks, jivas' or souls’ have the same bodily features like Him. Sparks emanating from the whole means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form that is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from.

The terminology of sparks, energies, atoms in the effulgence, and potency are only metaphors, a allegories - a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire.

Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna).

In is way it is clear that every living entity (marginal potency) has/is an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha whether they are aware of who they really are or not.

[Beggar]

How come nobody is dealing with the issues I raised?

[muralidhar_das]

 

In is way it is clear that every living entity (marginal potency) has/is an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha whether they are aware of who they really are or not.

Can't you see the absurdity of what you are preaching?

 

Souls in Goloka are nitya-siddhas. They have no material dreams. They only dream of different ways of serving Sri Sri Radha-Krishna.

 

[muralidhar_das]

 

How come nobody is dealing with the issues I raised?

 

Beggar this person Vigraha, Sarva, whatever, he never answers any questions.

[gHari]

We came up with that some years ago, not really caring either way; but a third position may dilute the fury of the poles. In my experience, if it is a triangle AND it is a circle, then I am looking at a cone. That is, fall AND no fall are both TRUE. Not that it matters, here or there.

[Beggar]

We came up with that some years ago, not really caring either way; but a third position may dilute the fury of the poles. In my experience, if it is a triangle AND it is a circle, then I am looking at a cone. That is, fall AND no fall are both TRUE. Not that it matters, here or there.

Yes but how is it that they can both be truths is the issue? Going back to godhead is one thing, positing a philosophy that by logic includes the idea that Krsna's highest devotees fall down into the mud of this plane of existence is quite another. Even if it's like a dream!

[stonehearted]

Can't you see the absurdity of what you are preaching?

Souls in Goloka are nitya-siddhas. They have no material dreams. They only dream of different ways of serving Sri Sri Radha-Krishna.

 

Yeah, that's a problem I'm having with these folks' line of argument, such as it is. I guess it's sort of inference from some things Srila Prabhupada said (ignoring the many times he wrote in his books that it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha).

 

So who lives in Goloka? Siddhas. They're perfect. So where's the possiblity of imperfection? Where's the possibility of choice in Goloka (or Vaikuntha)? And they're nitya siddhas, meaning they're eternally perfect. Now, you may say that, from one perspective, some are sadhana siddhas. Fine. But doesn't Krishna assure Arjuna in Bhagavad-gita that those who return to Vaikuntha (generically, or including Goloka) never return here? And why in Hell would I try so hard to attain Goloka if it were likely that, knowing me, I'll just space out again and dream of myself as some idiot in Virginia chasing 18-year-old girls, wrecking his dad's Mercedes, getting thrown out of the navy, etc.? Or as some worm in a pile of doggy doo? What kind of siddha spaces out and dreams of himself as a tapeworm?

 

I'm afraid these ideas of these pseudonymous fellows (if there are more than one) look a lot like a dogma built on a platform of some things Srila Prabhupada said, ignoring that fact that much of it was figurative, and that he comes to us in disciplic succession, which means there's a deep, rich background to what he teaches. He doesn't come out of nowhere, and he doesn't make up anything new. He may, however, present things in a way meant to help those completely unaccustomed to the perspective of the bhagavats understand that this is not their home, whoever they imagine themselves to be is not their real self, that they have prospects they can't even imagine with their very limited minds.

 

I can't believe that I contributed to the perpetuation of this thread, and I can't imagine that I have anything else to contribute. These discussions never go anywhere.