We All Originated From Goloka

May 15, 2007

If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism.

One must study Srila Prabhupadas’ books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books, referring mostly to Impersonalists, Buddhists, materialists and mundane religionists.

The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters are all as equal as each other. Why wouldn’t they be so? Srila Prabhupada warned us to not dwell too much of why and how we are here, but to get out. On many occasions he has said that our existence in the material world is so long that it seems we have come from tatastha, then throws a transcendental spanner in the works by saying that before that we also existed in another creation of matter and before that, and before that, and before that – how far can we go back? And he finishes by saying, before that even, we were with Krishna.

1. The time factor of past present and future exists in the mahat-tattva, a place of divided time that has the effect of decay and impermanence.

2. The impersonal characteristic of ones consciousness is called the jiva-tatastha conscious state that is devoid of past, present and future. The jiva-sakti consciousness is suspended in a dreamless timeless existence we call tatatasha, but even that conscious state is temporary due to the inherent active nature of one consciousness that originates from ones perpetual rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

3. The goloka-Vrndavan realm on the other hand is fully active in a way where there is no past or future, there is only the perpetual present, and so everything has always been there and will always be there. Our svarupa body has always been there.

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

o:p>

No-one who is a genuine follower of Srila Prabhupada will ever believe the silly brahmajyoti origins of the jiva, you can quote who ever and what ever until the cows come home but it will never change the fact that we all originated from Vaikuntha. AS far as I'm concerned, when the dogs bark, the caravan just passes by. I also think that sarva gattah and crew are stiring you guys up and enjoying it. These things cannot be understood with mundane words, sarva and vigraha may have had some personal realizations,thats obvious, but only you guys can realize the truth that your soul is an eternal person when your ready and not before. Also don't let the weight of the Gaudiya math make you believe in the Brahmajyoti origins, they don't represent Srila Prabhupada or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in the same intimate way as Srila Prabhupada did and continues to through his books and lectures.

Hare Krishna - Cleveland, Ohio USA

May 15, 2007

Guruvani and Muralidhar Prabhus, and others as well,

I think we better leave it at that. Why waste our time and energy reasoning with the likes of Vigraha and Sarva-gattah, who have evidently given up thinking - let us all focus single-mindedly on bhajana and sadhana, as that is where our welfare lies. I do agree with Theist that this is a basically non-essential issue over which we shouldn't exert ourselves. It doesn't matter how we got here; what we know is that this is the place of janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi, and what should concern us rather is endeavouring to attain radha-dasyam in Goloka Vrindavana, since that is our spiritual ideal.

Of course, I do get chafed too when I see farcical apasiddhanta such as siddhas falling from Paravyoma into Mahamaya being presented as bona fide Gaudiya philosophy, and this type of junk can only invite ridicule on our Sampradaya. But, as I wrote in my previous post, the missions that have remained truest to the spirit of Mahaprabhu are flourishing all over the globe, thereby fulfilling the predictions of the Lord and of our previous acaryas about a future, global society of Hari-bhaktas. In 20 or 25 years' time, ISKCON's share of world Vaishnavism will have dwindled to nothing more than a drop in the ocean of the Satya-yuga within Kali-yuga.

Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah

Hare Krsna

Gaura Premanande Hari Bol

muralidhar_das · May 15, 2007

What kind of siddha spaces out and dreams of himself as a tapeworm?

muralidhar_das · May 15, 2007

Why waste our time and energy reasoning with the likes of Vigraha and Sarva-gattah, who have evidently given up thinking - let us all focus single-mindedly on bhajana and sadhana, as that is where our welfare lies.

Sri Sri Guru Gaurangau Jayatah

Hare Krsna

Gaura Premanande Hari Bol

Yes I agree

Gaura Premanande!

May 15, 2007

No-one who is a genuine follower of Srila Prabhupada will ever believe the silly brahmajyoti origins of the jiva, you can quote who ever and what ever until the cows come home but it will never change the fact that we all originated from Vaikuntha. AS far as I'm concerned, when the dogs bark, the caravan just passes by. I also think that sarva gattah and crew are stiring you guys up and enjoying it. These things cannot be understood with mundane words, sarva and vigraha may have had some personal realizations,thats obvious, but only you guys can realize the truth that your soul is an eternal person when your ready and not before. Also don't let the weight of the Gaudiya math make you believe in the Brahmajyoti origins, they don't represent Srila Prabhupada or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in the same intimate way as Srila Prabhupada did and continues to through his books and lectures.

Hare Krishna - Cleveland, Ohio USA

Thanks for that insight Nandakumar prabhu, i think I met you in Mayapur, very mature revelation

May 15, 2007

AS far as I'm concerned, when the dogs bark, the caravan just passes by.

What dogs?! Are you dreaming about dogs again??? Please tell me you're not. If you are, please stop now. Your spiritual body is engaged in rasa in Goloka Vrindavana at this very moment and yet you're stooping so low that you're dreaming about dogs barking at a caravan? Sounds like some sort of barnum and bailey freak circus side show.

And what's the meaning of "Back to Godhead" if you're already there engaged in rasa! There's no question of going back if you're already there. Your only problem is that you need to quit daydreaming about dogs and tapeworms while engaged in your Goloka rasa. Sounds like you're having yet another bad hair day (dream.)

I also think that sarva gattah and crew are stiring you guys up and enjoying it.

Dream on, dream on

Dream yourself a dream come true

Dream on, dream on

Dream until your dream come true

Dream on, dream on, dream on...

Sing with me, sing for the years

Sing for the laughter and sing for the tears

Sing with me, if its just for today...

Sarva gattah · May 15, 2007

The dreaming Maha-Vishna is where ones Secondary non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha life force or jiva-s'akti) goes and becomes known as the 'conditioned state' when one chooses to leave Goloka however, ones nitya-siddha svarupa body always remains in Goloka.

Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka?

Question - It does not make sense to me in my present stage of spiritual development, which I can understand is very primitive to being born in a meat eating Godless society, that the jiva-tattva’s are continuously falling from Goloka, I look around me and can understand that billions of embodied jiva’s have taken shelter in a material bodily from the amoebas to aquatic, plant, birds, animals, human, ghosts, demigods etc. Why would anyone, in fact trillions upon trillions of jiva’s leave <ST1:PKrishna? From my understanding could it be possible the jiva originates from tatastha or even both, that some do fall down while others are born out of tatastha?

Answer – Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita as it isthat the jivas have no beginning or end, so they certainly did not originate from tatastha condition because there was never a time the life force (jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva) did not exist, nor in the future will such living consciousness cease to be as the Gita tells us. Srila Prabhupada has told us “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

<O:PSrila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

<O:PSrila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <ST1:PKrishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

The fact is only the jiva consciousness is transmitted out of Goloka and not ones foremost Spiritual nitya-siddha body. Srila Prabhupada has said “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

<O:PSrila Prabhupada makes it very clear– “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going".

Srila Prabhupada - "Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

<O:PSrila Prabhupada clearly emphasizes the fact– “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

<O:PQuestion– Before you answer why so many jiva consciousnesses choose to forget their nitya-siddha body serving Krishna and come to the material creation, if there was no beginning to the jiva, why do so many caste Vaishnava Brahmana guru’s and big, big Gaudiya swamis arrogantly and persistently claim they originated from tatastha when the Gita tells us there is no origin or beginning point of life?

<O:PAnswer – India is full of gurus and caste brahmanas, unfortunately many of them are Gaudiya Vaisnavas, who mostly read only speculated translations of previous Acharayas and Vedic texts with their English version of interpretation of those texts that has been subtly influence by Impersonalism over hundreds of years undermining Krishna’s Personal creation of marginal persons, claiming they believe and can prove their nonsense impersonal tatastha origins of the jiva-consciousness. We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that Krishna's creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism and deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation.

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that Krishna Conscious bodily form.

<O:PAll impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. Krishna’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings.

This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist

This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies Krishna altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return.

<O:PRegrettably their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is Impersonal instead of understanding all our origins are personal. The Impersonalists, Buddhists and Vaishnavas who believe in the impersonal origins of the jiva, cannot understand that on the top most platform of transcendental Knowledge, the entire creation steams from personalism, it is all personal, the original appearance of the jiva or atma is sat-cit-ananda-vigraha that we further call the nitya-siddha-svarupa. Ones consciousness however can fall to an Impersonal condition but they certainly do not originate fro it. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a bye product or manifestation created by Krishna, yet exhibited by HIS marginal vigraha devotees via their secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that firsts manifests in the mahat-tattva, then after many births and deaths, find liberation from that material frustrating condition in the Impersonal dormant aspect of their consciousness (that is also Krishna’s marginal force or jiva-s’akti/s) we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

<O:PIn a nut shell and the simplest way possible in explaining what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and tatastha is, is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the dormant condition of the nitya-siddhas secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha consciousness that vibrates between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva in the over-all Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. The Brahmajyoti is created by the Krishna via His marginal nitya-siddhas when they manifest their secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha restricted consciousness.

Firstly try to understand that tatastha and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a dormant conscious condition of the nitya-baddha lower non-Krishna conscious self (jiva-tattva or a secondary (conditioned) extension of Krishna’s marginal energy radiating ultimately from His Supreme Vigraha body), or secondary (conditioned) consciousness that primarily expanded out of their perpetual individual nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha due to choice and nothing else because Maha-Maya cannot exist in Vaikuntha. This secondary consciousness (conditioned by ones choices, thoughts, dreams and desires) is then transferred by Yoga-Maya out of Vaikuntha to the mahat-tattva cloud, then placed under the jurisdiction of Maha-Maya, the wife of the facilitator and creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

<O:PMany of us have possibly come and gone to that tatastha condition of our own consciousness on many, many occasions. Therefore it is clear that none of us in this room or the entire creation originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which is not possible because our tatastha conscious condition is only a transitional conscious state of the life force.

<O:PSrila Prabhupada says that the existence in the brahmajyoti, merging together with other individual jiva-tatasthas, without loss of individuality, is ultimately just another form of conditioned life or dreaming.

Sri Isopanisad explains that the extended secondary dreaming jiva-tattva consciousness is always appealing to Krishna to uncover their real authentic transcendental conscious identity and bodily source in Goloka and remove the veil of the restricted bodily containers in the mahat-tattva as well as the mundane Brahman tatastha consciousness or impersonal Brahmajyoti realization or ‘break away freedom from the mahat-tattva’ and reveal to them it is all (both entrapments in the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti) are both a dream and the result of an extended conscious condition caused by ones non-Krishna Conscious desires, thoughts and dreams. In this way ones secondary conscious condition trapped in mahat-tattva consciousness or tatastha consciousness does not see its full potential and true beautiful eternally youthful devotional Krishna Conscious bodily real authentic identity, which is the source of their secondary conscious existence. This is because of ones self centered desires for adoration, fame and wealth they have chosen to pursue.

Many Impersonalist yogis, Jains, Buddhists and even many Vaishnava traditions, including many Gaudiya Vishnavas, cannot understand that it is their mundane secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that exists in this material creation that was originally projected or transmitted from their perpetual rasa body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha incessant portion of the Spiritual Sky that enters the mahat-tattva and then, after billions of births, only then can manifests AS a spark of consciousness ONLY in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as confirmed by Jiva Gosvami.

Why do so many jiva’s fall from Goloka to the mahat-tattva?

Now to answer your question of why so, so many trillions upon trillion of nitya-siddha-svarupa’s choose to activate their lower self or secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, that is simply answered.

<O:PIt is clear in shastra that 25% of the marginal vigrahas (not as their nitya-siddha bodies) do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud simple because of choice which numbers are enormous and in the trillions and trillions as we see arond us, however, it must be made clear that only 25% of nitya-siddhas' choose to make that secondary conscious plunge, not as their nitya-siddha bodily form, but as the shadow of their perpetual body called the nitya baddha, as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us, most never come to the mahat-tattva creation of Lord Vishnu.

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of Krishna's marginal emanations.

Yet remember it is only 25% of creation who‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva in their dream state nitya-baddha lower consciousness. This means 25% of all marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees activate their secondary non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha dream condition and enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva (Temporary material manifestation), but never as their perpetual svarupa vigraha bodily form that always remains in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

The various Vedic texts tell us that the perpetual <ST1>Kingdom of<ST1> Krishna</ST1> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

It is because of the many meanings of Sanskrit words (170 meanings to the word jiva) and the many analogies used by Vaishnava scholars, (like the sun and the sunrays) many have misunderstood and have either given improper translations into many languages around the world, or who have taken analogies like the sun and the sun rays literally. Was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, the Spiritual Master of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, trying to explain that the living being was originally tossed down from the effulgent advaya light, but upgrading his followers' conditioning by adding the term "Vaikuntha" into this compound? Or, rather, was he trying to restructure the hardened conditioning of his scholastic well-wishers and even some of his devotees (who had become affected by the widespread interpretations of Impersonal origins prevalent at the time) by throwing in the term "advaya" to the compound advaya-vaikuntha. This is an unclear quote, and you can see how subtle the debate gets when these kinds of quotations are referenced.

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is therefore a manifestation of the secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees in Goloka as already clearly explained. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a phenomenon created by nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha perpetual body and simultaneously facilitated by the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva cloud. As such, Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha in the perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky is one and the same with the Brahmajyoti because the entire creation is the Brahmajyoti or the Brahman effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna.

In the Brahmajyoti, there exists all the Vaikuntha planets and Krishnas’ personified marginal devotees known as the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees (they are the living personified vigrahas or Brahman effulgence in its highest understanding).

Also in the Brahmajyoti there exists the mahat-tattva where the marginal vigraha devotees in Vaikuntha radiate from there being a secondary version of themselves that is only manifested when they choose to disrupt the perfect Krishna Conscious atmosphere of Vaikuntha. When they choose to do so, they are transferred by Yoga-Maya to Maha-Maya in the Mahat-tattva cloud in the Brahmajyoti and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Only there does Krishna allow His marginal created beings to do as they please and face the consequences however, they can never enter the mahat-tattva in their nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is not possible, therefore their entry into the mahat-tattva is compared to a dreaming consciousness or the shadow of who they really are.

Srila Prabhupada, from his Bhagavad gita introduction -"Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR eternal relationship with the Lord.

Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one's constitutional position".

<O:PNote, the life force is also known as the jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakrita, jiva-nikaya, jiva-tatastha that are all various stages of dreaming consciousness (nitya-baddha dreaming condition) that is projected outside of the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha from ones perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in the Spiritual Sky and into the impermanent mahat-tattva cloud that is in one corner of that same Spiritual Sky. The dreamless tatastha conscious dreamless condition of the jiva-tattva is situated between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva cloud and is known as the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. Such a dreamless conscious stat, like the mahat-tattva, is not permanent due to the inherent trait of eternal activity the lower conscious tatastha consciousness inherits from it nitya-siddha full consciousness or real genuine perpetual bodily self.

Guruvani · May 15, 2007

The misguided and uneducated person behind this thesis is like a magician doing a cheap magic trick.

His magic trick works by taking maybe three small references from the conversational statements of Srila Prabhupada and maybe one or two references from the books out of context and then he adds page after page of fabrication, concoction and forged material to make it look as if Srila Prabhupada wrote volumes and volumes on this theory of the jiva falling from Goloka.

In reality, all he has is a couple of sentences from some conversations of Srila Prabhupada that he misinterprets, distorts and manipulates to arrive at his erroneous conclusions.

If you took the actual statements of Srila Prabhupada that he uses in his thesis, you wouldn'nt even have a good paragraph of material.

So, to give his fraud thesis the appearance that Srila Prabhupada spoke volumes on this subject, he fabricates page after page after page of concocted fabrications woven between image after image after image.

Actually, his whole thesis is based on less than a paragraph of actual material from the works of Srila Prabhupada.

This fraud thesis is 99% bogus forgeries and fabrications and less than 1% based on the words of Srila Prabhupada.

So, he is like a cheap sidewalk magician using trickery to fool innocent people.

We have posted scriptural references from the books of Srila Prabhupada to authoritatively defeat the fall-from-goloka theorists, but they continue to keep up with this illusion that Srila Prabhupada supports their theory with page after page of references.

He takes a sentence of Srila Prabhupada and then writes a whole page of fabrications to couch it in to give his fabrications the illusion of being authoritative statements of Srila Prabhupada.

So, it's obvious that these fall-from-goloka theorists are willing resort to deception, forgery, fabrication and concoction to try and prove their bogus theory.

If you strip away all the forgery, fabrication and deception from the thesis you end up with a couple of sentences from Srila Prabhupada that are being used to forge and fabricate a false thesis that is 99% make believe fairytale that some dullard has manufactured in his oxygen starved brain.

Take away all the pictures and all the forgery and fabrication and you end up with less than a paragraph of material that these fools are using to distort the Vaishnava siddhanta.

We have produced many authoritative references from the books of Srila Prabhupada, the writings of Srila Saraswati Thakur and Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur to show that the fall-from-goloka theory is bogus.

We have much material that proves them wrong and they have less than a paragraph from Srila Prabhupada that they are using in a thesis that is 99% fraud, forgery and fabrication.

Only an idiot would fail to see the fraud, deception and trickery they have to resort to in order to build their theory.

When you boil it all down, they have about three sentences of Srila Prabhupada that they abuse and misuse to propagate their bogus siddhanta and we have shown many proper references that prove their theory wrong.

Anybody that takes a fair and objective look at this thread can see that this thesis is a fraud and a forgery based on a couple of statements that they have misunderstood.

Take away the trickery and you have actually nothing to support their bogus theory except fraud and forgery.

May 15, 2007

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The dreaming Maha-Vishna is where ones Secondary non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha life force or jiva-s'akti) goes and becomes known as the 'conditioned state' when one chooses to leave Goloka however, ones nitya-siddha svarupa body always remains in Goloka.

Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka?

Question - It does not make sense to me in my present stage of spiritual development, which I can understand is very primitive to being born in a meat eating Godless society, that the jiva-tattva’s are continuously falling from Goloka, I look around me and can understand that billions of embodied jiva’s have taken shelter in a material bodily from the amoebas to aquatic, plant, birds, animals, human, ghosts, demigods etc. Why would anyone, in fact trillions upon trillions of jiva’s leave <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>? From my understanding could it be possible the jiva originates from tatastha or even both, that some do fall down while others are born out of tatastha?

Answer – Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita as it isthat the jivas have no beginning or end, so they certainly did not originate from tatastha condition because there was never a time the life force (jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva) did not exist, nor in the future will such living consciousness cease to be as the Gita tells us. Srila Prabhupada has told us “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

The fact is only the jiva consciousness is transmitted out of Goloka and not ones foremost Spiritual nitya-siddha body. Srila Prabhupada has said “We never had any occasion when we were separated from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear– “Our separation from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada clearly emphasizes the fact– “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Question– Before you answer why so many jiva consciousnesses choose to forget their nitya-siddha body serving Krishna and come to the material creation, if there was no beginning to the jiva, why do so many caste Vaishnava Brahmana guru’s and big, big Gaudiya swamis arrogantly and persistently claim they originated from tatastha when the Gita tells us there is no origin or beginning point of life?

Answer – India is full of gurus and caste brahmanas, unfortunately many of them are Gaudiya Vaisnavas, who mostly read only speculated translations of previous Acharayas and Vedic texts with their English version of interpretation of those texts that has been subtly influence by Impersonalism over hundreds of years undermining Krishna’s Personal creation of marginal persons, claiming they believe and can prove their nonsense impersonal tatastha origins of the jiva-consciousness. We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism and deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation.

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious bodily form.

All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings.

This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist

This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies Krishna altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return.

Regrettably their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is Impersonal instead of understanding all our origins are personal. The Impersonalists, Buddhists and Vaishnavas who believe in the impersonal origins of the jiva, cannot understand that on the top most platform of transcendental Knowledge, the entire creation steams from personalism, it is all personal, the original appearance of the jiva or atma is sat-cit-ananda-vigraha that we further call the nitya-siddha-svarupa. Ones consciousness however can fall to an Impersonal condition but they certainly do not originate fro it. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a bye product or manifestation created by Krishna, yet exhibited by HIS marginal vigraha devotees via their secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that firsts manifests in the mahat-tattva, then after many births and deaths, find liberation from that material frustrating condition in the Impersonal dormant aspect of their consciousness (that is also Krishna’s marginal force or jiva-s’akti/s) we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

In a nut shell and the simplest way possible in explaining what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and tatastha is, is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the dormant condition of the nitya-siddhas secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha consciousness that vibrates between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva in the over-all Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. The Brahmajyoti is created by the <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> via His marginal nitya-siddhas when they manifest their secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha restricted consciousness.

Firstly try to understand that tatastha and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a dormant conscious condition of the nitya-baddha lower non-Krishna conscious self (jiva-tattva or a secondary (conditioned) extension of Krishna’s marginal energy radiating ultimately from His Supreme Vigraha body), or secondary (conditioned) consciousness that primarily expanded out of their perpetual individual nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha due to choice and nothing else because Maha-Maya cannot exist in Vaikuntha. This secondary consciousness (conditioned by ones choices, thoughts, dreams and desires) is then transferred by Yoga-Maya out of Vaikuntha to the mahat-tattva cloud, then placed under the jurisdiction of Maha-Maya, the wife of the facilitator and creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

Many of us have possibly come and gone to that tatastha condition of our own consciousness on many, many occasions. Therefore it is clear that none of us in this room or the entire creation originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which is not possible because our tatastha conscious condition is only a transitional conscious state of the life force.

Srila Prabhupada says that the existence in the brahmajyoti, merging together with other individual jiva-tatasthas, without loss of individuality, is ultimately just another form of conditioned life or dreaming.

Sri Isopanisad explains that the extended secondary dreaming jiva-tattva consciousness is always appealing to Krishna to uncover their real authentic transcendental conscious identity and bodily source in Goloka and remove the veil of the restricted bodily containers in the mahat-tattva as well as the mundane Brahman tatastha consciousness or impersonal Brahmajyoti realization or ‘break away freedom from the mahat-tattva’ and reveal to them it is all (both entrapments in the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti) are both a dream and the result of an extended conscious condition caused by ones non-Krishna Conscious desires, thoughts and dreams. In this way ones secondary conscious condition trapped in mahat-tattva consciousness or tatastha consciousness does not see its full potential and true beautiful eternally youthful devotional Krishna Conscious bodily real authentic identity, which is the source of their secondary conscious existence. This is because of ones self centered desires for adoration, fame and wealth they have chosen to pursue.

Many Impersonalist yogis, Jains, Buddhists and even many Vaishnava traditions, including many Gaudiya Vishnavas, cannot understand that it is their mundane secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that exists in this material creation that was originally projected or transmitted from their perpetual rasa body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha incessant portion of the Spiritual Sky that enters the mahat-tattva and then, after billions of births, only then can manifests AS a spark of consciousness ONLY in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as confirmed by Jiva Gosvami.

Why do so many jiva’s fall from Goloka?

Now to answer your question of why so, so many trillions upon trillion of nitya-siddha-svarupa’s choose to activate their lower self or secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, that is simply answered.

It is clear in shastra that 25% of the marginal vigrahas (not as their nitya-siddha bodies) do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud simple because of choice which numbers are enormous and in the trillions and trillions as we see arond us, however it must be made clear that only 25% of nitya-siddhas choose to make that secondary conscious plunge, not as their nitya-siddha bodily form, but as the shadow of their perpetual body called the nitya baddha,as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us, most never come to the mahat-tattva creation of Lord Vishnu.

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<sup>st</sup> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Kingdom</st1></st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Krishna</st1> </st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

It is because of the many meanings of Sanskrit words (170 meanings to the word jiva) and the many analogies used by Vaishnava scholars, (like the sun and the sunrays) many have misunderstood and have either given improper translations into many languages around the world, or who have taken analogies like the sun and the sun rays literally. Was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, the Spiritual Master of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, trying to explain that the living being was originally tossed down from the effulgent advaya light, but upgrading his followers' conditioning by adding the term "Vaikuntha" into this compound? Or, rather, was he trying to restructure the hardened conditioning of his scholastic well-wishers and even some of his devotees (who had become affected by the widespread interpretations of Impersonal origins prevalent at the time) by throwing in the term "advaya" to the compound advaya-vaikuntha. This is an unclear quote, and you can see how subtle the debate gets when these kinds of quotations are referenced.

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is therefore a manifestation of the secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees in Goloka as already clearly explained. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a phenomenon created by nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha perpetual body and simultaneously facilitated by the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva cloud. As such, Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha in the perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky is one and the same with the Brahmajyoti because the entire creation is the Brahmajyoti or the Brahman effulgence emanating/surrounding <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

In the Brahmajyoti, there exists all the Vaikuntha planets and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishnas</st1:place>’ personified marginal devotees known as the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees (they are the living personified vigrahas or Brahman effulgence in its highest understanding). Also in the Brahmajyoti there exists the mahat-tattva where the marginal vigraha devotees in Vaikuntha radiate from there being a secondary version of themselves that is only manifested when they choose to disrupt the perfect Krishna Conscious atmosphere of Vaikuntha. When they choose to do so, they are transferred by Yoga-Maya to Maha-Maya in the Mahat-tattva cloud in the Brahmajyoti and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Only there does <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> allow His marginal creation to do as they please and face the consequences however, they can never enter the mahat-tattva in their nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is not possible, therefore their entry into the mahat-tattva is compared to a dreaming consciousness or the shadow of who they really are.

Srila Prabhupada, from his Bhagavad gita introduction -"Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR eternal relationship with the Lord.

Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one's constitutional position".

Note, the life force is also known as the jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakrita, jiva-nikaya, jiva-tatastha that are all various stages of dreaming consciousness that is projected outside of the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of Spiritual Sky to the impermanent mahat-tattva cloud in one corner of that same Spiritual Sky.. The dreamless tatastha conscious dreamless condition of the jiva-tattva is situated between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva cloud. Such a dreamless conscious stat, like the mahat-tattva, is not permanent due to the inherent trait of eternal activity the lower conscious tatastha consciousness inherits from it nitya-siddha full consciousness or real genuine perpetual bodily self.

May 15, 2007

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna. I personally heard Srila Prabhupada describe what follows and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of creation and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru .

The Material Dream that is real but temporary and exists in one corner of the Spiritual Sky and is called the mahat-tattva

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No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget Krishna as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

Srila Prabhupada So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Bhativinode Thakur “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada- “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world.But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming stateafter we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation , we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

This separate extention of the nitya siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition. Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”.

Srila Prabhupada makes the point – “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”.

So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned phenomenon, or dream given fascility by th dreaming Maha-Vishnu.

Srila Prabhupada continues – “Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming”

Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupadais the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because -

Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself.

The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith DEVOTIONAL SERVICE and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna. I personally heard Srila Prabhupada describe what is above and I suggest the above is should read again and again to understand and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srlia Prabhupada .

May 15, 2007

We see above that 3/4 of creation is the Goloka-Vrndavan/Vaikutha realm and 1 /4 is the material or maha-tattva creation, in other words 1/4 of the nitya-siddhas have chosen to activate their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness or dreaming life force (jiva-sakti) and enter the impermanent dreams of Maha-Vishnu in a sub-conscious dreaming state due to their non-Krishna conscious desires.

It is therefore clear that 1 /4 of the marginal vigrahas do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud which numbers are enormous yet only 1/4 choose to make that conscious plunge as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us as shown in the painting above.

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of Krishna’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

The various Vedic texts tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode. This Krishna Conscious Vigraha self is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are ‘consciously’ unaware of that unending reality. This is due to our forgetfulness and dreaming non-Krishna conscious fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary), that transmits ‘the self interested thoughts one wants created’, to the the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

The nitya-siddhas vigrahas and their secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, (when the latter is activated), are both the divided (Personal and Impersonal) marginal emanations perpetually surrounding Krishnas Vigraha form that makes Krishna the complete whole or the entire creation.

"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

The Supreme Lord has two energies, material (mahat-tattva cloud) and spiritual (the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm where Krishna and His marginal nitya-siddha devotees serve). The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, ones consciousness may be under the spell of the inanimate material energy (the mahat-tattva) under the control of Maha-Vishnu and Maha-Maya or the devotional Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky under the control of Krishnas internal Yoga-Maya.

"The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter (ethereal and biological bodies), and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature (atma-vigraha perpetual self). Therefore, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

"The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and because he has this tendency, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

So, marginal energy is not a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the nature of the jiva-atma-vigraha. It refers to a living being with the character of independently choosing between Krishnas two Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva. Therefore, the living beings do not expand from their jiva-tatastha aspect of marginal consciousness. This marginal energy (niya-siddha’s higher and nitya baddha lower expression of consciousness) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living beings.

If marginal beings (the living entity with its independent nature, original rasa body and the ability to extend its life force jiva-sakti sub-consciously out of that rasa body) choose to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living beings as their secondary conscious extention that finds shelter in the mahat-tattva, eventually chooses, after many, many births in the mahat-tattva, decides to go back home, back to Godhead (Goloka), on return, one will still find they have their marginal independence even as their full potential perpetual nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body. Returning back to Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha does not change ones individual marginal position into internal energy (cit-sakti) and become Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha. Although the nitya-siddhas are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual or a place where nothing other than living vigrahas exist serving Krishna the Supreme Vigraha), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha marginal devotees do not turn into Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha (cit-sakti), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees can choose to live seperatly (in the sub-conscious extended life force jiva-sakti called the nitya-baddha conscious extention) from the nitya-siddha body they really are serving Krishna and enter into a dreaming sub-conscious lower self nitya-baddha condition that can only exist within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the maha-tattva.. Ones awareness of their surroundings can be situated either in the external mahat-tattva as their non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha consciousness, or remain in the internal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Kingdom of God as their full conscious nitya-siddha bodily self.

One can choose to be as their Krishna Conscious perpetual body or float away to the mahat-tattva in non-Krishna conscious dreams as their nitya-baddha jiva-sakti consciousness. In this way, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal consciousness can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal consciousness (because of ones free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal consciousness therefore those who believe they cannot fall ‘consciously’ from Vaikuntha are deluding themselves and misleading their followers.

May 15, 2007

So then your position must be that the soul has not originated in either the brahmajyoti or Vaikuntha since those are both non-conditioned states. You advocate a third position which I have heard is held by certain vaisnava lines.

I reject that view outright and remain noncommitted on the other two options.

Of course it is a matter of one's personal preference what one chooses to believe, but it might be noteworthy that this position (of karma being anadi, beginningless) is the siddhanta of the Vedanta-sutra that is accepted across the board by all strands of Vaishnavism. The implication is the the jiva has always been fallen, hence the term nitya-baddha. When we speak of the soul "originating in the brahmajyoti", that is simply referring to what the soul is made of. It is a spark of God - sac-cid-ananda. That is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita also: <b>mamaivamso</b> jivaloka jivabhutah sanatanah.

May 15, 2007

the class of people who think they know everything and that there is nothing new to learn, those people don't allow themself to move forward and learn new lessons in the next classroom.

Hallelujah!

May 15, 2007

WE ALL ORIGINATED FROM GOLOKA

<U><?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p></U>

The beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us that the perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana and encircled by theimperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s numerable expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 3/4 of the imperishable Spiritual Sky or total creation. Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets; both transcendental abodes are made up of living entities (individual bodily personalities or Krishna’s marginal potency) with eternal devotional bodies where no material energy (Maha-Maya) can exist. The nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s (Krishna’s marginal potency) can never fall down as their bodily devotional self because of the perpetual uninterrupted nature of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is set in the eternal present beyond the concept of past and future.<?xml:namespace prefix = o />

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe divided by past, present and future and only 1/4 of creation)

This dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees).

Ones secondary consciousness enters the dark cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti due to their desires not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation where they are then given counterfeit bodily material forms (ethereal and biological vessels) by the creator of that perishable place of the dreaming, Maha-Vishnu.

Understanding the true origins of all living entities

This book is based on the teachings of His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. The difference between mental speculation and philosophical speculation is backing up ones realizations with quotes from Srila Prabhupada who is my Spiritual Master. Unless one engages in philosophical speculation, just how will one formulate relevant questions to place before their guru and search through his teachings for correct meaning and understanding? The difference between philosophical and mental speculation is conclusions based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings (books, tapes and letters) that is handed down to our society in the 21<SUP>st</SUP> Century giving the correct meaning and translations of all previous Acharayas.

Srila Prabhupada is the 32nd Spiritual Master in a line of disciplic succession that goes all the way back to Krishna. Srila Prabhupada, unlike all previous Acharayas, has spread the teachings of Lord Krishna and Sri Chaitanya to every corner of the globe. Due to his endeavours the chanting of Hare Krishna and the distribution of his books has reached every city, town and village around the world where Krishna has now become a house hold name.

Chanting Hare Krishna and engaging in devotional service will protect a sincere aspiring devotee as the cobbler was protected in the story of ‘the cobbler and the jnani’ (page ?) however there are also those sincere souls who may become disillusioned if they only follow the charisma of a particular Guru, Swami or general devotee when a philosophical crisis develops due to their sentimental understanding of Vedanta. Srila Prabhupada wanted all his disciples and grand disciples etc to study his books and learn HIS teachings and not simply become an un-knowledgeable follower in someone else’s religious plans, "Don't think, just do what you are told prabhu may have its place in helping some, but it is certainly not meant for everyone”, it is an old cliché that can be misused and deny one from their own personal realizations and natural Spiritual development and growth. This is also called being institutionalised.

If you don’t want to be cheated when buying a diamond, you must have some knowledge of what a diamond is, similarly one must have some understanding of Spiritual life to begin with and then develop a solid understanding of Srila Prabhupadas books. In this way one will not be mislead by material charisma, dictatorial power and conflicting Vaishnava theories and dreaded Impersonalism. One must study Srila Prabhupadas books, tapes, letters and interviews diligently and openly challenge anyone who contradicts those books. The teachings of the Spiritual Master are absolute so Prabhupadas books, tapes (that all his books are via Dictaphone anyway) lectures, classes, morning walks, interviews and letters.

The writings in this thesis are inspired and based on Srila Prabhupadas teachings and my personal realizations and not mental speculation nor the dry institutionalized self-righteous parrot quoting of scriptures, although there is even great benefit in that. However the story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith and total dependence to the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.

I was once cleaning the Temple room in early 1973, in the process, I removed the paintings of the Panca-tattva (Lord Chaitanya and Nityananda and their associates) and Radha and Krishna down and placed them on the step of Srila Prabhupadas Vysa sign at the feet of Srila Prabhupadas’ photo on the Vysa sign because I did not want to put the painting on the floor.

As I continued cleaning, to my surprise Srila Prabhupada came in and on seeing the paintings on the step of his Vysa sign, began laughing and laughing and laughing in a serious yet surprised mood. Then he said,

“What is this?”

He was referring to the paintings of Radha and Krishna and the Panca-tattva sitting at his feet.

Srila Prabhupada then gently explained -

“I sit at the feet of Krishna and Lord Chaitanya, when you go back to Krishna, back to Goloka, you will understand.”

He then laughed again finding it humorous that one of his Western devotees would put the beautiful paintings of the Lord at the feet of their Spiritual Master

Srila Prabhupada had tears in his eyes as he began to start chanting japa while looking at the attractive painting of the Panca tattva and Radha and Krishna. (The curtains to the Dieties were closed)

Everyone else was out on Sankirtan except for the few devotees in the Kitchen. So there I was with Srila Prabhupada and no one else around in the Temple room. Srila Prabhupada said, after chanting for a few minutes -

“Radha and Krishna as Lord Chaitanya is very nice and so attractive’,

He then continued to laugh again as a father would laugh at the childish attempts of his young son to glorify him. What he was seeing I certainly could not see. Srila Prabhupada then started chanting japa in the temple room softly and I continued cleaning. When I finished the maintenance, Prabhupada then said in a humble chastising mood -

‘Now you can put the paintings back on the wall and always remember that I am always at the feet of Radha and Krishna, next time you clean, put the paintings on a chair and not on the step of the Vysa-sign, one day you will also wake up from this miserable world and also see that Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes - always chant Hare Krishna”

For the next ten minutes we both chanted japa and then he payed his obeisances to Radha and Krishna, I payed my obediences to him and Srila Prabhupada went back to his room.

As a young 20 year old, the significance of his mercy was taken for granted, we had no idea of the significance of being pioneers in Lord Chaitanyas’ Movement in 1972 although we new that distributing Srila Prabhupadas books and chanting Hare Krishna on the streets in so many cities, towns was something very special. It was only thirty years later I began to realize how significant my association with Srila Prabhupada was, for me, I always believed we were once with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada personally confirmed that to me - “Krishna has always been there waiting for you to again come back home and enter His pastimes” – Always chant Hare Krishna.

This thesis is attempting to understand how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

This separate version of the self is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact

Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”.

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>… People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all.

<u1:p></u1:p><U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear</U>. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada makes the point – <u1:p></u1:p>

“We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious phenomenon, only a dream. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada continues – <u1:p></u1:p>

“Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming” end of Srila Prabhupadas quote

<u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>The secondary extended conscious life force phenomena (jiva-sakti), emanating from ones own authentic perpetual rasa nitya-siddha bodily form (vigraha) in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha dominion, manifests due to its non-Krishna conscious nature. This jiva-sakti consciousness is transferred from Goloka and further facilitated or provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva creation. This cloud of the dreaming (the mahat-tattva) is also situated in the uninterrupted Spiritual Sky (<st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm) in one corner and is distinguished from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm by is phenomenal nature of impermanence and division of time. This has been a mystery to even many great Vishnavas (devotees of <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>) in the past in their attempts to try and understand the true origins of all living entities that enter that dark impermanent cloud in one corner of the Spiritual Sky (Brahmajyoti). <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>From the view point of the mahat-tattva, the jiva-sakti or the living force or life force (the extended consciousness of the nitya-siddha devotee in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti) may also fall from the jiva-tatastha conscious condition of spark like dormant consciousness that is situated between the Vaikunthas (Vishnuloka) and the mahat-tattva (the Impersonal aspect of Krishnas individual marginal consciousnesses or Brahmajyoti) however, from the bigger picture ofthecreation outside of the mahat-tattva and the thin Impersonal Brahmajyoti realm of marginal consciousnesses or dormant life forces (tatastha-saktis) separating the imperishable (Goloka) from the perishable (Vaikuntha), Srila Prabhupada tells us we indeed make our way to that tatastha conscious state in a previous creation and long, long, long, long before that our secondary consciousness was transferred or extended from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Brahmajyoti Spiritual Sky.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada</U> - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.<u1:p></u1:p>

<U><u1:p></u1:p>Ones secondary conscious projection</U> (jiva-bhutah) in this way can only manifest as a dormant spiritual spark (jiva-tatastha) AFTER going through the mahat-tattva. Such a dreamless conscious aspect of the life force (jiva-sakti) is then called the Brahma-sayujya or tatastha condition of consciousness which is also the Impersonal extension of the Brahmajyoti we call the ‘Impersonal Brahmajyoti’. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p></u1:p>In this way we do not originate from tatastha or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti because JIVA-TATATHA CONSCIOUSNESS is a secondary conscious phenomenon transferred from ones rasa perpetual body in the beautiful Goloka-Vrndavana Spiritual sky or Brahmajyoti to the dark maha-tattva cloud in the same Spirtual Sky or Brahmajyoti as shown in the painting above. This may have to be read a few times to understand the real concept of Brahmajyoti and our authentic origins from Goloka. Only due to lack of real knowlege does one believe we originated from tatastha (the impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti). All glories to Srila Prabhupada

Guruvani · May 15, 2007

So, the conclusion is that Krishna does not protect his pure devotees and thus they are falling down by the zillions to becomes amoeba life forms and then gradually evolving to be worms in stool and eventually insects, animals and birds etc., because they took a nap and had a dream that lasted millions of years as they passed through millions of life forms to finally get a human birth to make bogus siddhanta about the jivas falling down from Goloka?

this thesis is proof that we have evolved from worms in stool to become retarded philosophers inventing bogus siddhanta.

muralidhar_das · May 15, 2007

Of course it is a matter of one's personal preference what one chooses to believe, but it might be noteworthy that this position (of karma being anadi, beginningless) is the siddhanta of the Vedanta-sutra that is accepted across the board by all strands of Vaishnavism. The implication is the the jiva has always been fallen, hence the term nitya-baddha. When we speak of the soul "originating in the brahmajyoti", that is simply referring to what the soul is made of. It is a spark of God - sac-cid-ananda. That is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita also: mamaivamso jivaloka jivabhutah sanatanah.

Karma is anadi (beginningless).

This is certainly true.

Material existence and the jiva-soul are also beginningless (gita 13.20).

However a soul who attains mukti (nirvisesha-brahma) becomes liberated in the unity of Brahman and becomes from from karma. Karma has no beginning but it can end.

Shankaracharya taught the path to sayujya mukti and many souls have walked that path.

There are souls who are liberated and merged in God's impersonal aspect called Brahma (brahman). The "nigarbha-yogī" atmarama souls who adore God in his impersonal aspect are listed as "santa bhaktas" by Sri Chaitanya.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya

Madhya 24.164

ei saba śānta yabe bhaje bhagavān

'śānta' bhakta kari' tabe kahi tāńra nāma

"These thirteen types of yogīs and munis are called śānta-bhaktas, for they render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the neutral stage.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

They are impersonalists. They worship Krishna in the form of "formless Brahman". They can fall down into Maya. But the bhaktas in Vaikuntha never fall down.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrī Caitanya

Madhya 24.155

sagarbha, nigarbha, — ei haya dui bheda

eka eka tina bhede chaya vibheda

TRANSLATION

"The two types of ātmārāma-yogīs are called sagarbha and nigarbha. Each of these is divided into three; therefore there are six types of worshipers of the Supersoul.

PURPORT

The word sagarbha-yogī refers to a yogī who worships the Supersoul in the Viṣṇu form. The nigarbha-yogī worships the Supersoul without form. The sagarbha and nigarbha yogīs are further categorized: (1) sagarbha-yogārurukṣu, (2) nigarbha-yogārurukṣu, (3) sagarbha-yogārūḍha, (4) nigarbha-yogārūḍha, (5) sagarbha-prāpta-siddhi and (6) nigarbha-prāpta-siddhi.

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Such a great mass of souls who are of this temperament are existing, this mood of adoration of the Formless God, that compared to them the number of liberated devotees is very small.

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 6.14.5

muktānām api siddhānāḿ nārāyaṇa-parāyaṇaḥ

sudurlabhaḥ praśāntātmā koṭiṣv api mahā-mune

TRANSLATION

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Nārāyaṇa, or Kṛṣṇa. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare.

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gHari · May 16, 2007

Of course we have some explaining to do with the strictly-no-fall scenario when we consider that jivas are constantly entering the Kingdom of God forever and ever. Do we ever run out of jivas in maya to save? Are the new ones less eternal than the ones who entered the Kingdom zillions of kalpas ago?

May 16, 2007

SRILA PRABHUPADA - "No one falls from Vaikuntha. We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.

In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but a perishable reality situated in one corner of the Brahmajyoti Spiritual Sky or creation, we choose to forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our non-Krishna conscious desire and dreams within the mahat-tattva cloud in our attempts to become the centre of attraction or in our attempt to even become a supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen and our authentic bodily self is eternally there, “We are simply in a dreaming” explains Srila Prabhupada.

When the dreaming nitya-siddhas secondary consciousness (nitya-baddha) returns to his/hers original bodily position and full potential as ones Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha body, the secondary non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha state will dissipate like darkness dissipates as soon as the light is turned on. In this way, one will find themselve in the exact same Krishna Conscious position in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha as if they never left due to the absence of the divided time that exists in the mahat-tattva. Such time and impermance has no influence in the eternity of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha because it simply does not exist there. Everyones Krishna Conscious perpetual body is always in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha whether they believe this or not because ones rasa body is the orins of ones consciousness in the mahat-tattva. So once one gas returned to the everlasting Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha from the perishable mahat-tattva, it will be as they had never left, just like in a dream. Also when the light (nitya-siddha) is on, one can see who they really are because the darkness (nitya-baddha) that denied them the spiritual vision of seeing their perpetual rasa Krishna Conscious body is no longer there because in the presents of nitya-siddha bodily self, the counterfeit nitya-baddha material consciousness simply does not exist like darkness cannot exist in the presents of light.

Understanding that our original sub-conscious fall down to the mahat-tattva is originally from our rasa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, has also been endorsed in an English translation of Prema-pradipa by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura, as well as an English translation of Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Gosvami Prabhupada, the Spiritual Mater of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-vigraha devotees’ original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as, because of the attachment to pursue our non-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the centre instead of Krishna. This is why our dreaming condition is transferred to the mahat-tattva.

Every atma (perpetual body) is a marginal vigraha Krishna Conscious devotee that collectively appears in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky and appears to exist collectively as a bright personal effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna’s beautiful body [Krishna's Supreme Vigraha body] that radiates the entire creation with (Brahmajyoti). The Impersonalist cannot understand this and how it is possible for the secondary conscious condition of their atma-vigraha body, to find its way to an Impersonal aspect of that Brahmajyoti.

The secondary (mahat-tattva or material creation) and third (Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha Brahma-sayujya) realms of creation of Lord Krishna also originate from the Personal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky, both the second and third aspect of ‘conscious projection’ are the manifestation of the secondary conscious state of the atma-vigraha devotees, first as the their active stage in the mahat-tattva confined to ethereal and biological counterfeit bodily vessels, and then as the inactive state of tatastha consciousness in the so called Impersonal Brahmajyoti, free from ethereal and biological containers provided within the mahat-tattva.

In the secondary creation 'of the dreaming' called the mahat-tattva, Krishna and His marginal vigraha devotees are in a dreaming condition, not as their original bodies in Goloka, but in a dream state, Krishna expands as the dreaming Maha-Vishnu and the marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s expand or extend their consciousness, when NOT Krishna conscious, to those dreams Maha-Vishnu is having, where HE provides the ethereal and biological vessels that give the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the atma-vigraha devotee’s dreaming condition, their counterfeit forms. The difference is Krishna, the creator of the universe and the cause of all causes, is always no different from His many expansions such as Maha-Vishnu and is not affected in any way by His dreaming Maha-Vishnu expansion, where as the minute marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s are very much effected and becomes ‘consciously’ forgetful of their atma-vigraha perpetual marginal body, when their secondary consciousness is transferred to the mahat-tattva cloud (the impermanent universal creation of the dreaming or material universe) when they choose to imagine, think, dream or desire an existence without Krishna.

This secondary dreaming consciousness manifests from ones atma-vigraha body and finds refuge in the secondary creation (mahat-tattva). When ones secondary consciousness becomes fed up of being restricted and contained by ethereal and biological vessels, which belong to the mahat-tattva, the life force (jiva-sakti) can then enter the third (impersonal Brahmajyoti) stage of conscious projection created ultimately by Lord Krishna. What is happening here are the marginal living entities that radiate from Krishna’s perpetual body have all the traits of Krishna’s body, including a perpetual body of their own however all marginal vigraha devotee’s are the same in quality but not quantity. Krishna’s Supreme beautiful Vigraha body is compared to the Sun and the marginal vigraha devotee’s are compared to the sunrays, all originate from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky as the expansion of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s life force or Supreme s’akti. This s’akti of marginal devotees surrounding Krishna, sometimes manifest a secondary aspect of their being that enters the mahat-tattva, the marginal life force or s’akti can then manifest the third aspect of their being which is what we know as the collective Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

In other words the effulgence emanating from Krishna changes (yet as a paradox does not change on the bodily level due to eternal Goloka time) from personal to conditioned to Impersonal by radiating or transmitting a secondary consciousness that becomes conditioned in the mahat-tattva, and then can become further condition and appear as an individual atomic spark or the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, Brahma-sayujya or tatastha. ALL are the result of a projection of consciousness originating from ones rasa nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka. All this happens without the original vigraha body ever changing due to the perpetual nature of time and space in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. A crude example is just like when one dreams off in a far distant place, their body is still always there, similarly, the transcendental minute marginal living entities (vigraha devotee’s) secondary expansion life force (jiva-s’akti) is projected off as a dreaming consciousness to the far distant mahat-tattva cloud in the outlying corners of the Spiritual Sky known as the mahat-tattva or cloud of the dreaming, or may eventually manifest as an inactive or dormant sparks of individual consciousness that makes up the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, Brahma-sayujya or tatastha s’akti that separates the Vaikuntha realm in the Spiritual Sky from the mahat-tattva cloud. This space in-between the imperishable Vaikunthas and the perishable mahat-tattva, is created by the marginal vigraha devotees’ secondary conscious manifestation which is a transformation of Krishnas marginal effulgence emanating/surrounding His Transcendental Vigraha body.

For this reason, the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, tatastha-s’akti and Brahma-sayujya is nothing other than a secondary consciousness manifesting that manifests as a dormant state of the marginal consciousness that places them neither in the mahat-tattva in counterfeit bodies, or having the spiritual vision and awareness to realize that their present consciousness in the mahat-tattva or Impersonal Brahmajyoti is actually a dream emanating from who they really eternally are in Goloka.

The difference is Krishna and His marginal vigraha devotees, is Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the creator of the universe and the cause of all causes and His marginal vigraha devotee’s, is Lord Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, always no different from His many expansions such as Maha-Vishnu, where as the minute marginal atma-vigraha devotee’s can be ‘sub-consciously’ separated from their atma-vigraha perpetual marginal body when they choose to imagine, think, dream, desire, or even have no dreams at all, to subsist in an existence without Krishna.

The expansion of Krishna (technically via His plenary expansion Balarama known as the sleeping Maha-Vishnu) and the extended consciousness of the atma-vigraha devotee’s, are in a dreaming phenomena that manifests as a dark cloud within the Spiritual Sky called the ‘cloud of the dreaming’ or mahat-tattva.

The secondary consciousness is therefore generated from the perpetual jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s in Golokaand only comes into existence when ones focus is not on <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. This secondary conscious obviously originates also within the Goloka realm, but cannot exist or remain in that realm because the Spiritual Goloka-Vrndavana and Vaikunthas are 100% <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious. Just like darkness cannot exist where there is light, non-Krishna conscious dreams, thoughts and desire cannot remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky. Those dreams are therefore transferred to the perishable mahat-tattva.

In this way it is very clear that the jiva-bhutah consciousness or life force (jiva-sakti) originates outside of the mahat-tattva and is transmitted into the mahat-tattva from one perpetual body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm that is 3/4 of the creation because of those non-Krishna conscious thoughts or dreams. Such secondary consciousness or lower self is known as the jiva-bhutah consciousness, among other ‘jiva names’ according to the condition ones transmitted consciousness is in outside of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

The jiva-bhutah (the lower self) consciousness (jiva-soul or life force) is neither ethereal, biological or material because it is an extention of ones spiritual constitution or nitya-siddha vigraha body however, when the lower conscious version of the self of ones life force or jiva-sakti condition of consciousness (nitya–baddha) enters the mahat-tattva, it becomes contained and confined to an ethereal vessel provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of beginning its journey in the dreams of Maha-Vishnu to satisfy material desires, dreams and thoughts without Krishna being in the centre.

In the corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky (perishable material universe only 1/4 of creation), that dark cloud is nothing other than the rebellious dreams, thoughts, desires and impersonal escape of just a few of those eternal bodily personalities (jiva-atma-vigraha devotee’s). Due to their desire not to be with Krishna as their devotional form or body, such disloyal dreams, thoughts and desires are projected or transmitted as a ‘secondary consciousness’ to that dark perishable cloud or mahat-tattva temporary material manifestation.

No One’s Perpetual Devotional body Falls from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that is not possible?

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually No one falls from Vaikuntha, We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation due to our sub-conscious dreaming that transports us to a far away place without <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>”.

This dreamingsecondary conscious condition emanating from the sub-conscious mind of the atma-vigraha devotee is a conscious force (jiva-s’akti) that becomes embodied within the mahat-tattva. In our original situation, we were with Krishna and our authentic bodily self never leaves <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, even if we ‘sub-consciously’ may wonder a far.

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as because of the attachment to pursue our no-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the centre instead of Krishna.

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devis’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary. This will be clearly explained in this book.

This understanding is fantastic!!

May 16, 2007

No-one who is a genuine follower of Srila Prabhupada will ever believe the silly brahmajyoti origins of the jiva, you can quote who ever and what ever until the cows come home but it will never change the fact that we all originated from Vaikuntha. AS far as I'm concerned, when the dogs bark, the caravan just passes by. These things cannot be understood with mundane words, sarva and vigraha may have had some personal realizations,thats obvious, but only you guys can realize the truth that your soul is an eternal person when your ready and not before. Also don't let the weight of the Gaudiya math make you believe in the Brahmajyoti origins, they don't represent Srila Prabhupada or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in the same intimate way as Srila Prabhupada did and continues to through his books and lectures.

Hare Krishna - Cleveland, Ohio USA

Thanks for the intelligent advice Hare Krishna

May 16, 2007

This quote blows me away, its like somone just turned the light on!!

May 16, 2007

This quote blows me away, its like somone just turned the light on!!SEEEKING THE TRUTH]

The Impersonalist won't understand this and do everything they can to destroy the truth about our eternal personal svarupa form. If they where attached to Srila Prabhupada, they would understand the real truth of our personal origins as bodily form. sat cit ananda vigraha. Hari bol

May 16, 2007

No-one who is a genuine follower of Srila Prabhupada will ever believe the silly brahmajyoti origins of the jiva, you can quote who ever and what ever until the cows come home but it will never change the fact that we all originated from Vaikuntha. AS far as I'm concerned, when the dogs bark, the caravan just passes by. I also think that sarva gattah and crew are stiring you guys up and enjoying it. These things cannot be understood with mundane words, sarva and vigraha may have had some personal realizations,thats obvious, but only you guys can realize the truth that your soul is an eternal person when your ready and not before. Also don't let the weight of the Gaudiya math make you believe in the Brahmajyoti origins, they don't represent Srila Prabhupada or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in the same intimate way as Srila Prabhupada did and continues to through his books and lectures.

Hare Krishna - Cleveland, Ohio USA

Most of the hogwash brahmajyoti origins is coming from the Gaudiya math and Narayana Maharaja, he had his chance to join Prabhupada in the late sixties in America but, like the rest of the Gaudiya math, he refused. Prabhupada’s teachings books, lectures and street chanting are the real potent force, he is just riding on the transcendental wave Srila Prabhupada created with his insincere lip service show of respect only. Narayana Maharaja teachings will just create a second rate materially motivated mundane religion. The real force and potency is within Srila Prabhupada teachings if anyone cares to read, listen and follow them.

Vigraha · May 16, 2007

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We see that 75% of creation is the Goloka-Vrndavan/Vaikutha realm and 25% is the material or maha-tattva creation, in other words 25% of the nitya-siddhas have chosen to activate their secondary nitya-baddha consciousness or dreaming life force (jiva-sakti) and enter the impermanent dreams of Maha-Vishnu in a sub-conscious dreaming state due to their non-Krishna conscious desires.

It is therefore clear that 25% of the marginal vigrahas do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud which numbers are enormous yet only 25% choose to make that conscious plunge as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us as shown in the painting above.

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<SUP>st</SUP> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of Krishna’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

The various Vedic texts tell us that the Kingdom of Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode.

This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode. This Krishna Conscious Vigraha self is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are ‘consciously’ unaware of that unending reality.

This is due to our forgetfulness and dreaming non-Krishna conscious fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary), that transmits ‘the self interested thoughts one wants created’, to the the mahat-tattva (material universe).

In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form.

Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level dreaming; ones non-Krishna conscious thoughts or dreams (nitya-baddha lower consciousness) are as real as their perpetual nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva and are therefore temporary.

All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non Krishna Conscious desires cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud.

All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires.

Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva.

When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming.

Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from.

The nitya-siddha devotee's and their secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, (when the latter is activated), are both the divided (Personal and Impersonal) marginal emanations perpetually surrounding Krishnas Supreme Vigraha form that makes Krishna the complete whole or the entire creation.

"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva.

The Supreme Lord has two energies, material (mahat-tattva cloud) and spiritual (the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm where Krishna and His marginal nitya-siddha devotees serve). The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, ones consciousness may be under the spell of the inanimate material energy (the mahat-tattva) under the control of Maha-Vishnu and Maha-Maya or the devotional Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky under the control of Krishnas internal Yoga-Maya.

"The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter (ethereal and biological bodies), and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature (atma-vigraha perpetual self). Therefore, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp.

"The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and because he has this tendency, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 .

So, marginal energy is not a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the nature of the jiva-atma-vigraha. It refers to a living being with the character of independently choosing between Krishnas two Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva. Therefore, the living beings do not expand from their jiva-tatastha aspect of marginal consciousness. This marginal energy (niya-siddha’s higher and nitya baddha lower expression of consciousness) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living beings.

If marginal beings (the living entity with its independent nature, original rasa body and the ability to extend its life force jiva-sakti sub-consciously out of that rasa body) choose to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96)

If the marginal living beings as their secondary conscious extention that finds shelter in the mahat-tattva, eventually chooses, after many, many births in the mahat-tattva, decides to go back home, back to Godhead (Goloka), on return, one will still find they have their marginal independence even as their full potential perpetual nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious body.

Returning back to Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha does not change ones individual marginal position into internal energy (cit-sakti) and become Vishnu-tattva-Vigraha. Although the nitya-siddhas are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual or a place where nothing other than living vigrahas exist serving Krishna the Supreme Vigraha), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence.

Marginal nitya-siddha-vigraha devotees can choose to live seperately within their sub-conscious dreams that are extended as the jiva-sakti and called the nitya-baddha dreaming conscious extention, this is a secondary transformation of Krishna's marginal personalities. The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is simple the transformation of marginal individual consciousness, this is an important point to understand.

The nitya-siddha body is serving Krishna eternally and can never leave Goloka, yet from time to time, due to choice, may enter into a dreaming sub-conscious lower self nitya-baddha condition that can only exist within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu within the maha-tattva or within the non-dream tatastha condition we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is simple a further transformation of marginal individual nitya-baddha consciousnesses into an inactive state after going through the mahat-tattva, this is an important point to understand.

Ones awareness of their surroundings can be situated either in the external mahat-tattva as their non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha consciousness, or remain in the internal Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Kingdom of God as their full conscious nitya-siddha bodily self.

One can choose to be as their Krishna Conscious perpetual body or float away to the mahat-tattva in non-Krishna conscious dreams as their nitya-baddha jiva-sakti consciousness. In this way, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal consciousness can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal consciousness (because of ones free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal consciousness therefore those who believe they cannot fall ‘consciously’ from Vaikuntha are deluding themselves and misleading their followers.

Guruvani · May 16, 2007

There is not one verse in the Gaudiya canon that supports the fall-from-goloka theory, but there are numerous verses that explain that the jivas in the maha-tattva fall down from the brahmajyoti.

The author of the thesis has not presented one single verse from shastra to support his theory, only a couple of statements of Srila Prabhupada that have been misunderstood and abused to arrive at a wrong conclusion.

Not one verse from shastra.

The fall-from-goloka thesis is a fraud and a forgery.

It has nothing to do with actual Gaudiya siddhanta.

krsna · May 16, 2007

There is not one verse in the Gaudiya canon that supports the fall-from-goloka theory, but there are numerous verses that explain that the jivas in the maha-tattva fall down from the brahmajyoti. :smash:

The author of the thesis has not presented one single verse from shastra to support his theory, only a couple of statements of Srila Prabhupada that have been misunderstood and abused to arrive at a wrong conclusion. :smash:

Not one verse from shastra. :smash:

The fall-from-goloka thesis is a fraud and a forgery. :smash:

It has nothing to do with actual Gaudiya siddhanta. :smash:

We All Originated From Goloka

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