Vigraha Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 The dreaming Maha-Vishna is where ones Secondary non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha life force or jiva-s'akti) goes and becomes known as the 'conditioned state' when one chooses to leave Goloka however, ones nitya-siddha svarupa body always remains in Goloka. Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka? Question - It does not make sense to me in my present stage of spiritual development, which I can understand is very primitive to being born in a meat eating Godless society, that the jiva-tattva’s are continuously falling from Goloka, I look around me and can understand that billions of embodied jiva’s have taken shelter in a material bodily from the amoebas to aquatic, plant, birds, animals, human, ghosts, demigods etc. Why would anyone, in fact trillions upon trillions of jiva’s leave <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>? From my understanding could it be possible the jiva originates from tatastha or even both, that some do fall down while others are born out of tatastha? Answer – Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita as it isthat the jivas have no beginning or end, so they certainly did not originate from tatastha condition because there was never a time the life force (jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva) did not exist, nor in the future will such living consciousness cease to be as the Gita tells us. Srila Prabhupada has told us “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation" Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.” The fact is only the jiva consciousness is transmitted out of Goloka and not ones foremost Spiritual nitya-siddha body. Srila Prabhupada has said “We never had any occasion when we were separated from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear– “Our separation from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” Srila Prabhupada clearly emphasizes the fact– “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Question– Before you answer why so many jiva consciousnesses choose to forget their nitya-siddha body serving Krishna and come to the material creation, if there was no beginning to the jiva, why do so many caste Vaishnava Brahmana guru’s and big, big Gaudiya swamis arrogantly and persistently claim they originated from tatastha when the Gita tells us there is no origin or beginning point of life? Answer – India is full of gurus and caste brahmanas, unfortunately many of them are Gaudiya Vaisnavas, who mostly read only speculated translations of previous Acharayas and Vedic texts with their English version of interpretation of those texts that has been subtly influence by Impersonalism over hundreds of years undermining Krishna’s Personal creation of marginal persons, claiming they believe and can prove their nonsense impersonal tatastha origins of the jiva-consciousness. We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism and deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation. We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious bodily form. All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings. This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies Krishna altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return. Regrettably their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is Impersonal instead of understanding all our origins are personal. The Impersonalists, Buddhists and Vaishnavas who believe in the impersonal origins of the jiva, cannot understand that on the top most platform of transcendental Knowledge, the entire creation steams from personalism, it is all personal, the original appearance of the jiva or atma is sat-cit-ananda-vigraha that we further call the nitya-siddha-svarupa. Ones consciousness however can fall to an Impersonal condition but they certainly do not originate fro it. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a bye product or manifestation created by Krishna, yet exhibited by HIS marginal vigraha devotees via their secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that firsts manifests in the mahat-tattva, then after many births and deaths, find liberation from that material frustrating condition in the Impersonal dormant aspect of their consciousness (that is also Krishna’s marginal force or jiva-s’akti/s) we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti. In a nut shell and the simplest way possible in explaining what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and tatastha is, is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the dormant condition of the nitya-siddhas secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha consciousness that vibrates between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva in the over-all Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. The Brahmajyoti is created by the <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> via His marginal nitya-siddhas when they manifest their secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha restricted consciousness. Firstly try to understand that tatastha and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a dormant conscious condition of the nitya-baddha lower non-Krishna conscious self (jiva-tattva or a secondary (conditioned) extension of Krishna’s marginal energy radiating ultimately from His Supreme Vigraha body), or secondary (conditioned) consciousness that primarily expanded out of their perpetual individual nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha due to choice and nothing else because Maha-Maya cannot exist in Vaikuntha. This secondary consciousness (conditioned by ones choices, thoughts, dreams and desires) is then transferred by Yoga-Maya out of Vaikuntha to the mahat-tattva cloud, then placed under the jurisdiction of Maha-Maya, the wife of the facilitator and creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu. Many of us have possibly come and gone to that tatastha condition of our own consciousness on many, many occasions. Therefore it is clear that none of us in this room or the entire creation originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which is not possible because our tatastha conscious condition is only a transitional conscious state of the life force. Srila Prabhupada says that the existence in the brahmajyoti, merging together with other individual jiva-tatasthas, without loss of individuality, is ultimately just another form of conditioned life or dreaming. Sri Isopanisad explains that the extended secondary dreaming jiva-tattva consciousness is always appealing to Krishna to uncover their real authentic transcendental conscious identity and bodily source in Goloka and remove the veil of the restricted bodily containers in the mahat-tattva as well as the mundane Brahman tatastha consciousness or impersonal Brahmajyoti realization or ‘break away freedom from the mahat-tattva’ and reveal to them it is all (both entrapments in the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti) are both a dream and the result of an extended conscious condition caused by ones non-Krishna Conscious desires, thoughts and dreams. In this way ones secondary conscious condition trapped in mahat-tattva consciousness or tatastha consciousness does not see its full potential and true beautiful eternally youthful devotional Krishna Conscious bodily real authentic identity, which is the source of their secondary conscious existence. This is because of ones self centered desires for adoration, fame and wealth they have chosen to pursue. Many Impersonalist yogis, Jains, Buddhists and even many Vaishnava traditions, including many Gaudiya Vishnavas, cannot understand that it is their mundane secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that exists in this material creation that was originally projected or transmitted from their perpetual rasa body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha incessant portion of the Spiritual Sky that enters the mahat-tattva and then, after billions of births, only then can manifests AS a spark of consciousness ONLY in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as confirmed by Jiva Gosvami. Why do so many jiva’s fall from Goloka? Now to answer your question of why so, so many trillions upon trillion of nitya-siddha-svarupa’s choose to activate their lower self or secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, that is simply answered. It is clear in shastra that 25% of the marginal vigrahas (not as their nitya-siddha bodies) do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud simple because of choice which numbers are enormous and in the trillions and trillions as we see arond us, however it must be made clear that only 25% of nitya-siddhas choose to make that secondary conscious plunge, not as their nitya-siddha bodily form, but as the shadow of their perpetual body called the nitya baddha,as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us, most never come to the mahat-tattva creation of Lord Vishnu. It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21<sup>st</sup> century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Kingdom</st1></st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Krishna</st1> </st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear. It is because of the many meanings of Sanskrit words (170 meanings to the word jiva) and the many analogies used by Vaishnava scholars, (like the sun and the sunrays) many have misunderstood and have either given improper translations into many languages around the world, or who have taken analogies like the sun and the sun rays literally. Was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, the Spiritual Master of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, trying to explain that the living being was originally tossed down from the effulgent advaya light, but upgrading his followers' conditioning by adding the term "Vaikuntha" into this compound? Or, rather, was he trying to restructure the hardened conditioning of his scholastic well-wishers and even some of his devotees (who had become affected by the widespread interpretations of Impersonal origins prevalent at the time) by throwing in the term "advaya" to the compound advaya-vaikuntha. This is an unclear quote, and you can see how subtle the debate gets when these kinds of quotations are referenced. The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is therefore a manifestation of the secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees in Goloka as already clearly explained. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a phenomenon created by nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha perpetual body and simultaneously facilitated by the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva cloud. As such, Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha in the perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky is one and the same with the Brahmajyoti because the entire creation is the Brahmajyoti or the Brahman effulgence emanating/surrounding <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. In the Brahmajyoti, there exists all the Vaikuntha planets and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishnas</st1:place>’ personified marginal devotees known as the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees (they are the living personified vigrahas or Brahman effulgence in its highest understanding). Also in the Brahmajyoti there exists the mahat-tattva where the marginal vigraha devotees in Vaikuntha radiate from there being a secondary version of themselves that is only manifested when they choose to disrupt the perfect Krishna Conscious atmosphere of Vaikuntha. When they choose to do so, they are transferred by Yoga-Maya to Maha-Maya in the Mahat-tattva cloud in the Brahmajyoti and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Only there does <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> allow His marginal creation to do as they please and face the consequences however, they can never enter the mahat-tattva in their nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is not possible, therefore their entry into the mahat-tattva is compared to a dreaming consciousness or the shadow of who they really are. Srila Prabhupada, from his Bhagavad gita introduction -"Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR eternal relationship with the Lord. Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one's constitutional position". Note, the life force is also known as the jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakrita, jiva-nikaya, jiva-tatastha that are all various stages of dreaming consciousness that is projected outside of the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of Spiritual Sky to the impermanent mahat-tattva cloud in one corner of that same Spiritual Sky.. The dreamless tatastha conscious dreamless condition of the jiva-tattva is situated between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva cloud. Such a dreamless conscious stat, like the mahat-tattva, is not permanent due to the inherent trait of eternal activity the lower conscious tatastha consciousness inherits from it nitya-siddha full consciousness or real genuine perpetual bodily self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted May 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 The Dream No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget Krishna as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples<?xml:namespace prefix = o /> His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Consciousness. Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna. Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation" Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.” Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”. Srila Prabhupada So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Bhativinode Thakur “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83 Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1), Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud. Srila Prabhupada- “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world.But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming stateafter we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation , we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka. Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva. Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva. This separate extention of the nitya siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition. Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”. Srila Prabhupada – “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”. … People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all. Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream. Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”. Srila Prabhupada makes the point – “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”. So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned phenomenon, or dream given fascility by th dreaming Maha-Vishnu. Srila Prabhupada continues – “Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen”. Srila Prabhupada - “Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming” Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70 In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form. Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud. Srila Prabhupadais the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because - Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself. The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith DEVOTIONAL SERVICE and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted May 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 How is it one can forget Goloka-Vrndavan? The following is a pastime (Lila) of the great sage Narada-Muni that took place walking with Krishna outside the walls of Dwarka in Goloka-Vrindavan. Krishna was about to teach Narada a valuable lesson about the powerful effects of Maya (forgetfulness) Narada Muni, a great Devotee of Lord Krishna, was once walking outside the perimeter of Dwarka (one of Krishna’s great Palaces) with the Lord. As they walked, Narada asked Krishna, “How is it one can forget such a beautiful place as Goloka-Vrndavan? ‘How could a devotee forget Krishna and end up in the temporary material world in an ethereal (heavenly) or biological (earthly) body?” Narada looked at Krishna in total ecstasy and bliss wondering how anyone could leave such beauty. He was confused, as he new the material universe was full of souls, who all were previously with Krishna in their only genuine eternal form that is perpetually endowed with an imperishable identity, personality and individuality, who did exactly that – forgot Krishna and their own real identity by turning their back on Him and manufacturing so many counterfeit identities, personalities and forms outside of Goloka-Vrindavan within the temporary material universe, how could this happen? As they walked through the forest, a young girl caught Narada’s attention; she was struggling to carry two buckets of water near a well. Out of pity, Narada went over and offered his helping hand to the struggling girl; she gladly accepted his offer, as she was exhausted. Gladly and compassionate Narada Muni carried the two buckets of water and proceeded to the girls’ destination at a nearby Village. On the way there, the simplicity and innocents of this beautiful young girl was so sweet and captivating that Narada was speechless in her association. She broke the silence by explaining she was the daughter of the Village elder and her father was a great leader and devotee of Krishna. Narada, however was so captivated by the girl’s sweet voice, flowing long hair and colourful sari, he was not listening. He was totally dumbfounded in her presents. When they arrived at the Village, the girl introduced her new friend to her father. He was very impressed by Narada’s qualities, and thought this man must be a great devotee of Lord Krishna. He immediately further thought ‘what a nice husband this young man would make for my daughter’ The Village elder felt obligated to reward Narada for his service. All the Villagers gathered around thinking Narada must be a great Sage and suggested the best reward for him was the village elder’s daughter in marriage. Narada Muni was so attached and comfortable with the girl that he accepted the offering! The wedding day arrived and everyone in the surrounding area came. The Village Brahmin’s (priests) performed the fire yajna (purification ceremony) and many gifts were given. After the marriage Narada and his new wife settled in performing various duties. Narada eventually became the Head Master of the Gurukula (school). In due course his wife fell pregnant with their first child. A boy was born and the Village was ecstatic, celebrating late into the night. As time went on, Narada’s happiness increased being with his family and living in the Village, he never had a worry in the world. Over the years he was bestowed another six children. He enjoyed watching them grow, becoming educated and playing sporting games with them. All his children were adorned with beautiful qualities. Twenty years had passed, his father in-law, the Village elder, passed away suddenly due to illness; everyone was saddened and would only accept Narada as the new Village elder. Many more years passed and he eventually gave permission to a young boy to marry his daughter. Everything was so perfect, so peaceful. Narada was totally satisfied with his wife, children, grandchildren and all the wonderful people in the Village. Then one day an enormous storm came to the Village, pelting heavy rain with strong winds that destroyed houses. Narada decided he must immediately evacuate the Village, but it was too late, flooding had made it impossible to escape. The storm became more intense, the water level was rising fast and raging torrents destroyed everything in its path. Narada frantically searched for his wife, children, grandchildren and friends, He found himself trapped on a plank of wood in the raging torrents looking everywhere through the hail, wind and ragging water for his wife, but new she must have been washed away by the flood. His son in law and daughter also found a plank of wood attempting to ride out the storm however, it only got worse and they eventually lost their footing and also perished. Then to Narada’s amazement he saw two of his young grand children high up in a tree holding on to dear life. Narada reached out to them screaming, “Just hold on to me, give me your hand and I will save you!” They reached out and at the same time a huge wave overpowered all of them, frantically Narada searched through the water screaming out for his grandchildren, but they also had perished. He continued calling out, “Don’t leave me, just hold on somehow, don’t leave me!” Then he also perished in the flood At that exact moment, Narada felt a tap on the shoulder, he slowly opened his eyes still lamenting and wanting to be with his family. He found himself sitting against a well; again Narada yelled out in bewilderment, “Where is my family?” Then realized the tap on the shoulder was from Krishna standing next to him. Krishna laughed and said, “You wanted to know how powerful Maya (forgetfulness) was, so I showed you. You have been sitting against that well for no more than a moment!” Coming to his senses, Narada says to Krishna, “You mean all that experience, my wife, my children, my friends, my wealth, my fame, my followers, the Village, was a dream?” Krishna replies, “No, it is all real but everything outside my Kingdom is impermanent, your entire experience was a lesson to show you how easy it is for a devotee in Goloka-Vrindavan, who is eternally liberated, until they choose not to be as you have just done, to be captivated by Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) and fall to a temporary body of forgetfulness birth, disease, old age short memory and death to experience the impermanent nature that exists only within My material universe outside My Eternal abode of Goloka Vrindavan/Vaikuntha. In My Spiritual Universe, there is no death, however as soon as you chose to forget Me and help the girl, you were immediately transferred to My material universe and experienced the fleeting forgetful nature of the transitory universe, including death by drowning. This is because you were attached to something other than loving devotional service to Me; (Krishna or God) you chose to turn your back on me just for a moment to help the young girl and became captivated by your own selfless compassion to help her, so much so you forgot Me! That moment seemed like a lifetime. Genuine selflessness is doing everything for My pleaser and you, along with others, simply become inattentive. Many of my devotees experience this illusion like you have as Lila (pastime), so I can teach them a valuable lesson however, others who first choose turn their back on me, eventually become attracted to the flicking beauty of Maya, unfortunately they can remain in the material universe forgetting their true form, identify, personality and individuality for almost what appears to be an eternity, transmigrating through many millions of counterfeit bodies in their search for so called happiness. Enough is never enough in the material universe. In the material world, this is like chasing after a mirage in the desert that only appears real, but in reality is only an illusion. The impermanent universe is both real and an illusion because it is transitory. This is what temporary ethereal (heavenly or hellish) and biological (earthly) bodies in the material universe are like, they all end in disappointment because they fade away because everything one has accumulated and worked so hard to achieve is lost and ultimately forgotten – everything just fades in time. Conditioned souls who are trapped in the material universe experience that ‘moment of being away from my Kingdom’ as billions upon billions of life times in billions of different bodies that seem like an eternity, so much so, many foolishly come to believe the Impersonal inactive effulgent Brahmajoyti, or bright light, which is the motionless effulgence of trillions of individual jivas surrounding My body, is the starting and ending point of their existence. All of them have forgotten their real form and relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrindavan This is very difficult to understand without My favour because it is very complicated for you to understand the eternal stage on which all this illusion within the impermanent material universe is unfolding. In actual fact, all of those jivas were once like you and had a personal intimate relationship with Me in Goloka-Vrindavan, they still do, but have temporally forgotten. As in your case of sitting against the well and captivated by absent-mindedness just for a moment, the consciousness of those who choose to leave My Personal abode and their real form, identity, personality and individually have also become forgetful, leaving behind their original form, just as you did Narada, in Goloaka-Vrindavan. On leaving your true identity you then fabricate numerus counterfeit forms, identities and personalities like one does in a dream at night. Some in this way transfer their consciousness to the material universe, as your consciousness had just experienced, to peruse their back on Me and pursue their own interests. In actual fact there is no beginning or ending point of the jiva, this Impersonal conclusion by some lost souls, which includes many learned Vaisnavas and caste Goswamis (My devotees), have miss understood their eternal relationship with Me that is always there in Goloka-Vrindavan, even if they have forgotten. Their idea that the soul originates from the Brahmajoyti is due to the long association they have had within many fleeting bodies within the temporary universe, being trapped within forgetfulness and sensual identity and association for so, so long, that they have forgotten their original form, identity, personality individuality and selfless devotional love in their eternal relationship with Me as you, Narada, have just done. Even a great devotee like you should never underestimate the power of My Maya (forgetfulness and illusion) if you choose first to enter Her domain”! ( What is Maya? Maya: - forgetfulness, illusion, ‘that which is not’, a personality who controls the impermanent energy, i.e., the ethereal (heavenly and hellish) and biological (earthly) container the soul manifests, as well as the mental delusions suffered by the forgetful jiva after leaving the Kingdom of God. Maya’s duty is to make sure no one disturbs Krishna by offering the aspiring devotees wealth, riches, beauty (female or male), and knowledge of the celestial technological heavenly realms and technologically earthly realm as a test to see what one really wants.) Human civilizations throughout the centuries have repeatedly attempted to build a permanent existence as well as prepare their present bodies with wealth and belongings to take with them into a heavenly ‘after-life’ where they believe they will live forever, why this is not possible in this temporary world will be fully explained in this thesis. From the beginning of time, so many cultures have tried to prepare, with their inherent instinctual belief in an after life, to enter a Perpetual Kingdom of God. They unfortunately mistakenly come to believe that this transitory universe, with its heavenly rewards, is their real home (Explained later when explaining the heavenly planets within the interim creation in higher levels of the material universe existing in a non-biological sub-space dimension). All things must pass The attempt to achieve happiness, love and sensual pleasures in an impermanent atmosphere will, in due course, frustrates an intelligent human being because; in the end, all they have worked so hard to build up over their lifetime is all taken away. Whatever material acquisitions built up over their lifetime eventually wears out and erodes away. Ultimately they loose everything anyway as forgetfulness, disease, old age and death over comes them. The phenomenon of death, also known as ‘forgetfulness’, is an abnormal state the jiva or individual life force is overcome by while traveling in and identifying with the outward biological human bodily garment or vehicle while contained in the temporary universe. The attempt to build a perpetual blissful home on earth in a biological body, or in heaven in a non-biological ethereal body is not possible because everything eventually breaks down and fades away in the impermanent material universe. Even in the heavenly planets, that are rewards for Jains, Buddhists, Christians, Muslims, Jews and most branches of Hinduism, due to their performance of penance and austerity, exists only a temporary celestial manifestation within the boundaries of the material universe where one can live for thousands of years but also must pass on. Only jivas who fall from the Brahmajoyti, having first originally previously first fallen from Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrindavan long, long, long before they mistakenly accepted the Impersonal Brahmajoyti as their origins, have to start their active existence from the beginnings of biological life. Only after billions of life times, do they unfortunately make their way to the Brahmajoyti. They do not know or remember how they were introduced or originally fell from Goloka-Vrindavan/Vaikuntha to the temporary universe in the first place and foolishly believe the Brahmajoyti is both the source of their existence and liberation. Unfortunately the separation of the individual jiva from Krishna’s Personal abode has been so long a period of time they foolishly believe their origins are the Brahmajoyti. These jivas, who think they have originated from the Brahmajoyti, first manifest an ethereal body that stays with them for as long as they exist in the impermanent universe. From that ethereal body all other insubstantial and biological forms are projected. Coming from the Brahmajoyti means these embodied jivas have to start their active existence from the most basic form of life first attained after leaving that effulgent light. From there the now embodied jiva has to go through the billions of biological bodily mapped out by evolution until the human body is again attained. It must be made clear this extremely lengthy process is only for the jivas who have previously merged there identity, individuality, personality and form into a minute spark of individual living light and therefore have entered or merged themselves (individual spark) into the brightness of the Impersonal Brahmajoyti, have to start off at the very basis of biological life when they again re-emerge from their Impersonal slumber. Impersonalism is a very dangerous philosophy to follow and is often referred to by devotees of Krishna as Spiritual suicide. The Impersonal effulgence or Brahman is where unlimited other ‘inactive jivas’ exist and vibrate their form impersonally as individual living sparks of light that collectively make up what is also known as the Impersonal Nirvana. All of them who enter the Brahmajoyti, except for some rare Impersonalist yogis, have to start at scratch (entering the body of a microbe) when they eventually desire activity and fall out of that Impersonal sense of oneness. Followers of Lord Buddha and the Jains practice sever penance and austerities attempting to free themselves from karma. Their austerity however, has the side effect of accumulating pious karma that allows them entry into the heavenly planets. These higher dimensional supernatural worlds, known as the heavenly planets, exist in sub-space which are a insubstantial manifestation of the temporary material energy where the ethereal non-biological body, that is temporary but not material (lifeless energy), contains the eternal jiva or soul and resides separate encased in the ethereal living body apart from that lifeless sub-space-matter that the sub-space heavenly and hellish planets are made of. In this thesis it should be made clear the words material and matter is lifeless substance or energy. In other words we do not live in a material body but rather we live in an ethereal body that further creates a biological covering. Matter and material refers to the lifeless by products left over by the embodied jivas once they vacate the biological body. Both the jivas ethereal bodies or containments and the surrounding sub-space lifeless material energy are not generally perceived by the embodied ‘jivas projected biological containments’ that the ethereal body eventually manifests as a further extension of the ethereal body. The biological restraint or body covers the ethereal body and resides in a dimension like our earthly planet that is called secular space that is far more gross and solid than sub-space matter however, both realities are material where as the ethereal body and its extended biological body are not material. The ethereal body in material sub-space is also called the supernatural-realm; where as the biological containment in secular-space is called the natural-realm. Both the natural and the supernatural are not spiritual; they are different dimensions within the material realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 The Dream No-one has ever and can never, ever refute the fact that our existence in the material creation is nothing other than a dreaming condition emanating from ones rasa body in Goloka when one chooses to forget Krishna as Srila Prabhupada has clearly told his disciples<?xml:namespace prefix = o /> Wake up and smell the cowdung, baba This world is real and you are indeed situated in your body (in the region of the heart) as in the machine. Read Bhagavad Gita again... you missed a few spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2007 Report Share Posted May 10, 2007 Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin... Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. Yes, we truly fall down from Brahman but wait! Actually, we dont fall at all! If we did not fall at all, why does he say we have fallen from Brahman? Yet another bad dream for a confused jiva in Vaikuntha? Wow! That means that there is confusion and maya in Vaikuntha! What revelations! Like I said, read the books one more time. This time slowly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted May 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--> His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada, the founder of the International Society or <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place> Consciousness. Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation" Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.” <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada – “We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”. <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. <u>Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.” <u1:p></u1:p></u> <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”. <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”. <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Bhativinode Thakur “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83 Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p> Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">K</st1:place>rishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud. Srila Prabhupada-“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world.But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">K</st1:place>rishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming stateafter we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation , we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka. <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp. Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva. <!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--> Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body are transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva. <u1:p></u1:p>This separate extention of the nitya siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition. Srila Prabhupada: “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!” He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation. He is dreaming there is a tiger and he is creating a situation, fearful situation”. Srila Prabhupada – “Actually there is no cause of fear. There is no tiger. That situation is created by the dreaming Sub-consciousness. Actually there is no tiger. Similarly, we have created this material world and activity”. … People are running, “Oh..., sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh, sonh,” identifying that “Oh, I am the manager. I am the factory owner. I am this, I am that. We have got his politics. We have to defeat such competitors.” All these things are created exactly like that, svapna drastur ivanjasa, just like a man is creating his particular situation simply by dream. That’s all. Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear. So the answer is, when somebody asks you the question of our origins, ‘When have we all become in contact with this material nature?” Tell them one has not become in contact (authentic perpetual vigraha body) with the mahat-tattva. He is thinking by the influence of the external energy, but actually he is dreaming, for example: A man is dreaming of a tiger but actually there is no contact with tiger because it’s only a dream.Similarly we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point”. Srila Prabhupada makes the point – “We have simply created a situation, well, we personally have not created a situation, Krishna has given us a situation because we wanted to imitate Krishna, and therefore Lord Krishna has given us an opportunity: ‘All right, try and imitate me. You want to be an imitation king on the stage of the mahat-tattva, feel free to act like that. Play that part. Do like that. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice’, you can become the centre of adoration, everyone can worship you”. So in this situation our contact with material energy (mahat-tattva) is just like dream, a secondary conscious conditioned phenomenon, or dream given fascility by th dreaming Maha-Vishnu. Srila Prabhupada continues – “Actually we are not fallen, we are only dreaming. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">K</st1:place>rishna</st1:place> consciousness. As soon as we understand that “I have nothing to do with the mahat-tattva — I am simply <st1:place u2:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place>’s servant, eternal servant, that’s all,” immediately he becomes liberated. Exactly like that: as soon as you... Sometimes we do that. When the fearful dreaming becomes too much intolerable, we break the dream. We break the dream when it becomes intolerable. Similarly, we can break this material (mahat-tattva) connection at any moment as soon as we come to the point of Krishna conscious. “Oh, <st1:place u2:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place> is my eternal master. I am His servant.” That’s all. This is the way. Actually we are not fallen. There cannot be any fallen”. Srila Prabhupada - “Actually there is no tiger; it is dreaming, it is all a dream. Similarly, our fallen condition is also dreaming” <u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupada - Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul’s falling into Maya’s influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place> are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place> does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:place u2:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place> is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70 In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form. Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level;ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva.All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place u2:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud. <u1:p></u1:p>Srila Prabhupadais the personification of shastra because he is in a line of disciplic succession from Krishna Himself, everything he says and writes IS shastra, infact it is more important that all previous writings because -<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--> Srila Prabhupada IS the present authority on Vaishnavism and his world wide preaching success preaches for itself. <u1:p></u1:p>The story of the humble simple minded cobbler and the arrogant puffed up jnani, who thought that his wealth of Sanskrit slokas and Vedic knowledge of rituals, that he believed would lead to his re-awaking in Goloka, warns us that only ones unconditional selfless attachment, faith DEVOTIONAL SERVICE and total dependence ON the Spiritual Master and Krishna is the only way to realize our authentic real Krishna Conscious bodily self in Goloka-Vrndavana and wake up from this material dream.<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]--> <!--[endif]--><u> <u1:p></u1:p></u> Why is this so difficult for many to understand? Simple answer, they think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and chanting of Hare Krishna. I personally heard Srila Prabhupada describe what is above and I suggest the above be should read again and to understand and defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's with their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA All glories to Srlia Prabhupada . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted May 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 Why is this so difficult for so many to understand? Simple answer, they all think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and the chanting of Hare Krishna. Srila Prabhupada has described what follows on other posts I have made and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of our existence in the material world. In this way we can all defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's and pollute innocent aspiring devotes who follow their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA. All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru Dear friends, if you want to enjoy with your materialistic friends, then don`t visit the place near Kesi-ghata. Don`t see the Deity of Krsna, known as Govinda, as He stands attractively in His three-fold bending form, sweetly smiling and casting captivating side-long glances as He holds His flute to His ruby red lips and wearing a peacock crown. I humbly ask all aspiring devotees to try and understand the following shatric knowledge and bonafide facts explained by Srila Prabhupada. All of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forget their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, but on the absolute level and not the mundane biological level, ones thoughts and dreams are as real as ones actions, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah conditioned state), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form. Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their nitya-siddha body, with a major difference, they are broadcasted as sub-conscious dreams as a life force we call the jiva-sakti that is then transferred to the dreams (in the nitya-baddha lower self condition) of Maha-Vishnu and expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. Maha-Vishnu through his various representatives offers the visiting jiva-sakti consciousness various bodily vehicals so they can come into the mahat-tattva or material creation from the outside, which is the surrounding Vaikunthas where there genuine perpetual rasa body exists. This material creation is nothing other than the non-Krishna conscious dreams of the nitya-siddhas whether you believe it or not. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state (conditional life) to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ (jiva-sakti) cause one to sub-consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud. Above is the mahat-tattva where Maha-Vishnu's dreams are similtaniously the dreams of the conditioned souls or the nitya-siddhas secondary consciousness (nitya-baddha) that is transferred into the maha-tattva originating from the surrounding Vaikunthas The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Kingdom</st1></st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Name </st1></st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode, this means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear. As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe). In a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form. Keep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones ‘non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud. All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. To remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the mahat-tattva. When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming. Such dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from. In a comparable way, whens ones dreams or thoughts are not <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed. Ones sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s. There is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted KingdomKrishna. To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah) is extended to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious body). As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition The Material Dream that is real but temporary and exists in one corner of the Spiritual Sky and is called the mahat-tattva Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2007 Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 There is no "Prabhupada's siddhanta" - there is only one siddhanta in our sampradaya and that is what Srila Prabhupada is explaining - he is not creating a new siddhanta, he is just presenting it for us. The Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta demands that all philosophical and theological conclusions are subject to verification of guru, sadhu and shastra. You cant just quote one of the three - all three MUST agree on such issues. Where is a shastric reference that the soul never leaves Vaikuntha only sends a "phantom consciusness unit" to the material world? Are there any stories of such "sleepers" in Vaikuntha? These theories are some of the more bizzare concoctions Prabhupada's followers ever came up with. Right on the level of "Prabhupada is God" nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2007 Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 Why is this so difficult for so many to understand? Simple answer, they all think they are their material bodies and lack the devotion and the attachment to Srila Prabhupada and the chanting of Hare Krishna. Srila Prabhupada has described what follows on other posts I have made and I suggest the below should be read again and again to understand the true facts of our existence in the material world. In this way we can all defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's and pollute innocent aspiring devotes who follow their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul. - HARE KRISHNA. All glories to Srila Prabhupada the Jagat Guru Thanks for this understanding. I believe the above speaks for itself. If low born really believed he was low born, he would understand this. Srila Prabhupada also said that when dogs bark, you don't bark with them, not that I'm calling anyone a dog, it's just an interesting comment. Anyway I think you have made Prabhupadas' stand exceptionally clear. Hare bol!! Many devotees are following this thread and your posts have made it easier to understand our fall down into the material world from Vaikuntha. Jai Prabhupada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2007 Report Share Posted May 11, 2007 Thanks for this understanding. I believe the above speaks for itself. If low born really believed he was low born, he would understand this. "In this way we can all defeat the Impersonalists who masquerade as Gaudiya Vaishnava's and pollute innocent aspiring devotes who follow their nonsense Mayavardi brahmajyoti origins of the soul." --------------- You mean Srila Bhaktisiddhanta was one of such "impersonalists"? BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASVATI THAKURA has written on the nature of jiva as follows: "Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him. The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment."(From 'Brahmana & Vaisnava') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted May 12, 2007 Report Share Posted May 12, 2007 The Final Absolute Proof: The Jiva Consciousness Did Fall From Their Svarupa Body in Goloka The wonderful Srimad Bhagavatam or Bhagavat-purana tell us that the Kingdom</ST1> of<ST1> Krishna is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes and so called time is in the eternal present where their is no past or future. Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continious, everlasting, devotional ceasless, never ending, long lasting, continual jivatma vigraha is ALWAYS there and can NEVER leave because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual Vaikuntha means nothing there can decay perish or disappear, therefore everyones never ending bodily form or svarupa body is already there and never leaves Goloka or Vaikuntha.. <O:P<O:P As already mentioned and must be constantly emphasised, this means all of us have an eternal form and relationship that is always with Krishna in His everlasting Abode that is forever there and has always been there, even though from time to time, we are consciously unaware of this unending reality due to our forgetfulness and fantasies of material grandur. Such desires DREAMS and thoughts that create our mirage like insignificant secondary consciousness (real but temporary) that transmits ‘the thoughts one wants created’ to the material universe in the jiva-bhutah condition consciousness known as the nitya-baddha proviso of existence within the mahat-tattva (material universe). <O:PIn a uncomplicated way of trying to understand this, all of us dream when we sleep, the dreams we have in our biological body or vessel appear real and while immersed in that dream state one forgets their biological body they are dreaming from. In a similar way, the non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, convictions or ‘dreams’ manifest a separate dreaming version of the self (that is real but temporary) and while in that dreaming state or secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah), we forget our genuine Krishna conscious bodily form. <O:PKeep in mind, on the absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level; ones thoughts or dreams are as real as their atma-jiva-vigraha body, with a major difference, they are expressed through counterfeit bodily vessels within the mahat-tattva. All ethereal and biological vessels as well as their material surroundings are provided by Maha-Vishnu for the purpose of allowing one in their secondary conscious state to live out those dreams, thoughts and desires. Such non-Krishna Conscious thoughts and desires cannot exist within the same devotional space that all their perpetual Krishna Conscious bodies exist in (namely Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). In this way, it is ones Krishna Conscious desires’ cause one to consciously enter the mahat-tattva cloud. All self-centered desires, dreams or thoughts expel themselves from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha perpetual portion of the Spiritual Sky due to the selfish independent desires (choices) to no longer want to be with Krishna. For ones conscious awareness to remain in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha abode, one has to be Krishna Conscious. In this way ones non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams and desires cannot remain there and are transferred as a secondary conscious state (jiva-bhutah) to a far distant transient place in the Spiritual Sky set aside for such temporary thoughts, dreams or desires. Those desires, thoughts and dreams, represented by the jiva-bhutah consciousness, are provided ethereal and biological containers provided by Maha-Vishnu to chase their dream, in some cases for an almost eternity. This place of ‘the dreaming’ is called the PERISHABLE mahat-tattva that is a real phenomenon in the Spiritual Sky yet temporary. When one is awake in their biological body, or when one is dreaming in that body, it is still the same ‘self’ existing on two completely different levels of consciousness at the same time, one in the biological body, the other as dreamed up fantasies the biological body is dreaming. <O:PSuch dreams appear real while ones biological body is sleeping, so real, one completely forgets the biological body one is dreaming from. <O:P In a comparable way to undderstand this, when ones dreams or thoughts are not <ST1:PKrishna conscious, they create a secondary conscious state called the jiva-bhutah conscious condition or "conditioned state" brought about by ones Krishna Conscious desires and DREAMS. This state of consciousness is then transferred to within the mahat-tattva cloud (material universe), which is real but temporary and house in ethereal and eventually biological bodies provided by Maha-Vishnu that enables the visiting jiva-sakti consciousness in the eclosed atmosphere of the mahat-tattva or material creation. In this way, the thoughts of ones lower self, unlike the illusionary unreal dreams one has while their biological body is sleeping, are actually a real reality but subject to decay. Remember, on this level of consciousness, your thoughts are your actions and stays that way while even contained in ethereal vessels within the material heavenly planets. Only in the middle planets of biological vessels are ones thoughts and dreams suppressed. <O:POnes sleeping biological body dreaming, is only an analogy and it does not mean the biological understanding of dreaming is the way we dream ourselves out of the Vaikuntha’s. <O:PThere is a difference, ones dreams within Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha are non different from reality or actions. In other words, if one has non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, dreams or desires, they cannot experience those thoughts, desires or dreams in the devotionally uninterrupted <ST1>Kingdom of </ST1><ST1>Krishna. Krsnaloka or Vishnuloka <O:P To experience such self-centered dreams and desires, the secondary consciousness (jiva-bhutah, jiva-tattva, jiva-sakti etc, etc) is extended or projected to the mahat-tattva or material universe. In this way, ones secondary consciousness is transferred to within the confines and restrictions (being contained in ethereal and biological vessels) of mahat-tattva when one is unaware of their real original identity and form (The atma-vigraha or nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body). As already explained, this means all of us (all marginal living entities) have an eternal shape, form, body and connection that is forever with Krishna in His everlasting Abode which is infinitely eternal even though from moment to moment, we may choose to consciously deny of this everlasting reality due to our desire to experience existence separate from Krishna. Only then, after that choice is made, does forgetfulness enter the equation where ones fantasies of independent grandeur away from beautiful Krishna is created by our dreaming secondary consciousness that transmits one to the material universe (mahat-tattva) or nitya-baddha forgetful condition of existence as the jiva-bhutah conscious condition that originates from our perprtual bodily form in Goloka-Vrndavana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 If we are merely asleep in Goloka, dreaming about being in Maya, why does the soul has to leave the body in order to come back to the spiritual world? Bhagavad Gita clearly says that the soul transmigrates through different species, not some phantom projection of the soul. That sleeper concoction is a total joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigraha Posted May 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 The wonderful Maha Vishnu who's dreams are the also the realitites of ones nitya-baddha consciousness that manifests as a sub-conscious alternative to ones perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Gloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Garbhodakasayi Vishnu the first expansion of Maha-Vishnu It is within the wonderful and terrible dreams of sleeping Maha-Vishnu, who is the Over Lord of the Maha-tattva and the provider of ethereal and biological vessels, that ones nitya-baddha consciousness or jiva-tattva is housed so the extended jiva-tattva consciousness can act out their non-Krishna Conscious thoughts, desires and dreams without Krishna directly. Of course Krishna (technically Balarama, Krishnas' older brother) is always with them as the Paramātma (Kshirodakasayi Vishnu) and provides the jiva-tattva consciousness with eveything they desire or dream off as long as they earn it according to the karmic laws that govern the mahat-tattva. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted May 14, 2007 Report Share Posted May 14, 2007 "The material universe set aside in one corner of the Spiritual Sky is also for the nitya-siddhas non-Krishna conscious dreaming condition (nitya-baddha), that temporary cloud in the vast perpetual Spiritual Sky (25% of the creation) is created by Maha-Vishnu and is known as the mahat-tattva or the cloud for the dreaming" Srila Prabhupada: -"We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krishna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position. Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krishna desire for sense gratification is there". The mahat-tattva cloud of the dreaming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted May 15, 2007 Report Share Posted May 15, 2007 <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Maha Vishnu the over Lord of the mahat-tattva and His Good wife Durga or Maya Krishna or God is a perpetual ‘Bodily-Person’ and so are all of the individual marginal potencies (souls) that emanate/surround Him. We hear from the Vedic texts that the Supreme Brahman or Brahmajyoti exhibits Krishna’s (God’s) effulgence, and therefore everything becomes illuminated. We can understand from Brahma-samhita that this Brahmajyoti, or the Brahman effulgence, emanates from the Personal body of Lord Krishna. Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls. Even the terminology ‘originally manifested’ is incorrect because there is no beginning or end to Krishna or His marginal devotee’s. One thing is certain; all living entities that enter the dark mahat-tattva cloud in the far corner of the Spiritual Sky have all originated from the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, not as their perpetual devotional Krishna Conscious body, but rather as a transformation of consciousness caused by non-Krishna conscious desires. All marginal sparks, souls, jiva's, atoms in the effulgence, potencies, energies etc are all individual bodily personalities that originally manifested as an eternally Krishna (God) Conscious devotional body or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. (Etenity, knowledge, bliss and form) It is only when they (the marginal devotee’s as their authentic devotional body) foolishly transmit a 'secondary conscious phenomenon’ (jiva-bhutah) to the mahat-tattva (material universe), that such knowledge of their original service to Krishna in the transcendental body they really are, is temporarily lost (never severed due to their spiritual body being the source of their transmitted jiva bhutah consciousness) and the disease of Impersonalism (Mayavadism) and confinement to ethereal and biological vessels or bodies, overwhelms and traps their transferred secondary consciousness to the confines of the material temporary universe or mahat-tattva. The unfortunate unknowledgeable view of believing our origins are from Impersonal origins even affects many great Vaishnava devotee’s like Srila Bhaktirakshaka Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja Swami, B.G. Narasingha and many others in the Gaudiya Math. Many Vaishnava philosophers have considered this effulgence of bodily individuals or souls to be Impersonal however, all ‘so-called sparks in the effulgence or souls’ in Krishna’s ‘energy emission of rays’ are actually the manifestation of unlimited individual bodily-personalities that are referred to as Krishna’s marginal potency, sparks or jiva-atma-vigraha souls. Their understanding of the jiva or souls origins is simply incorrect. The fact is, we are all eternal person as a perpetual transcendental body and always have been that bodily form. We can either accept that Krishna conscious bodily origins, or we can deny that body and consciously transfer our desires, aspirations, dreams and thoughts to he mahat-tattva (impermanent material universe of self centered importance). Ultimately Krishna’s ‘marginal-potency-bodily personalities’ are the Brahmajyoti!! It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, may sometimes go on to ‘consciously’ (never as the body they are eternally, that is their true selfless devotional unique self) leave Krishna’s imperishable abode and enter the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a secondary non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti. Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud, can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist. All the ‘individual bodily subsidiary sparks (vigraha’s) of the effulgence originating from Krishna’ are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha’s bodily personalities serving Krishna. The mahat-tattva on the other hand, is also part and the parcel of the Brahmajyoti, and comes into existence due the dreams of Maha-Vishnu (the parcel or energetic) and simultaneously the non-Krishna conscious desires, aspirations, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entities (the part or energy) perpetually serving the either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana when they abandon that service. Without the part, (marginal) the parcel (Krishna) is not complete – without the marginal secondary transmitted consciousness emanating from the marginal living entities authentic bodily origins, Maha-Vishnu’s dreams within the mahat-tattva and incomplete. Krishna and his marginal devotee’s are inseparable even when his marginal servants choose even when His marginal servants choose to extend their consciousness to a secondary existence away from the full potentialities of their own original devotional bodily identity. Because Krishna is the Supreme Personality of God and the cause of all causes, He anticipates such choices of His marginal energy (vigraha’s). In other words, for Krishna to be complete, the marginal potency, including their secondary transmitted consciousness, actually make Krishna the absolute-whole or simultaneously one and different (acintya-beda-beda-tattva) It is because Krishna allows individuality, He knows in advance that some will choose to reject Him and their own Krishna conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha body and apt for the secondary option which is the mahat-tattva or material universe. For Krishna to be complete, He creates this secondary option via His Maha-Vishnu expansion (technically Maha-Vishnu is an expansion of Balarama who is Krishna’s brother). The mahat-tattva is created ironically out of love for His marginal vigraha devotee’s because He would rather they choice to love or serve Him than be like a slave or ‘mindless’ servant without free will. Therefore one can stay in Krishna’s Autocratic Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm if they choose, or they can ‘consciously’ enter the impermanent mahat-tattva (never as their authentic bodily form as that body is perpetually part and parcel of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky). All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks’ have the same bodily features like Krishna – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. The marginal potency or sparks emanating from the whole categorically means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form. Sometimes this is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from. It’s only a metaphor, a allegory, a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and bodily form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna). In other words every living entity (marginal potency) has an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha. As explained, it is important to understand that Krishna’s marginal potency bodily personalities are the Brahmajyoti!! It is from all those perpetual bodily individuals forms (vigraha’s), who are always engaged in various pastimes with Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vishnu within the surrounding Vaikuntha planets, that a secondary non-Krishna conscious phenomenon may sometimes ‘consciously’ leave or be projected from their Krishna conscious authentic original bodily self within the imperishable abode of Krishna (Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha). This is how the living entity (a secondary projected non-Krishna conscious self, enters or falls down to the perishable mahat-tattva cloud within one corner of the Spiritual Sky in a inferior non-Krishna conscious state that automatically becomes an Impersonal phenomenon within the Brahmajyoti existing in the mahat-tattva cloud. Only in this way, via the mahat-tattva cloud (never as ones authentic body that can never leave Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm), can the Impersonal Brahmajyoti temporarily exist. All the ‘individual bodily marginal sparks (souls, jiva’s, living entities or life force) of the effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna, are actually collectively the Brahmajyoti Brahman effulgence or the Vaikuntha’s that is eternally glowing with individual personalities in perpetual devotional bodies. It must be give emphasis to, that the mahat-tattva, also part of the Brahmajyoti, comes into existence due to the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in partnership (the parcel and the part can never be separated) with the non-Krishna conscious desires, aspirations, thoughts and dreams of the marginal living entities perpetually serving in either Vaikuntha or Goloka-Vrndavana, when they foolishly desire to be the master instead of the servant. All of Krishna’s marginal ‘sparks, jivas' or souls’ have the same bodily features like Him. Sparks emanating from the whole means individual bodily personalities emanating and surrounding Krishna’s Personal bodily form that is compared to a fire from whence those individual sparks come from. The terminology of sparks, energies, atoms in the effulgence, and potency are only metaphors, a allegories - a figure of speech, Krishna is certainly not a blazing fire in His Ultimate self and form and neither are the marginal individual bodily personalities impersonal sparks emanating from that blazing fire. Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who is often referred to as the energetic, while His marginal servants are known as the marginal energies however, in both cases the original and ultimate appearance of both Krishna (energetic) and His marginal potency (energies) are always individual bodily personalities of Master (Krishna) and servant (marginal individuals called nitya-siddha-svarupa-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha eternal devotee’s of Krishna). In is way it is clear that every living entity (marginal potency) has/is an original devotional bodily form that is perpetually serving Krishna in unlimited pastimes within either Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha whether they are aware of who they really are or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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