Fables and Fairytales of the Bhagavatam - The Paroksha Method

[muralidhar_das]

Pradyumna swami teaches that gopas and gopis can fall from Goloka:

 

http://groups.google.com.aupradumyaswami/topics

 

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<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr><td class="blurb_star" valign="top" width="18"> </td> <td> Even the cowherd boys can fall from Goloka-Vrndavana if the forget Krishna </td> </tr> <tr> <td> </td> <td class="padt2"> THE SECRET BOOK OF ORIGINS. QUANTUM PHYSICS OR THE SCIENCE OF POSSIBILITIES. UNDERSTANDING THE UNIVERSAL CREATION. “The perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna (above in the red lotus flower and unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in the... <nobr>more »</nobr> </td></tr></tbody> </table>

[Guruvani]

Originally, I started this topic to deal with the issue of the fall of jiva and how the shastra and Srila Prabhupada speak in parables or fables to illustrate how the living entity has fallen into this conditioned existance in the material body.

 

As I mentioned earlier, there are certain parables and fables that have admittadly been used in shastra and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada in order to illustrate a concept in as simple terms as possible to give the conditioned mind a chance to grasp an understanding of how our existence in the material world is based upon an unhealthy aversion to the loving service of the Lord.

 

In the allegorical story, the fable, the parable of King Puranjana as narrated by Narada Muni to King Pracinabarhisat, we find a very similar concept to the "back to Godhead" theme and the fall of the living entity from the service of the Lord.

 

I will present in subsequent posts some verses to demonstrate that this "back to Godhead" idea and the "fall from Goloka" theory are somewhat enocuraged in this fable of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

But, before we go any further we need to understand that we are hearing a "fable" a parable of Narada Muni that he teaches for the purpose of enlightening the living entity (King Pracinabarhisat) about his fallen conditon and what his proper healthy spiritual condition should be.

[Guruvani]

In the parable of King Puranjana, Narada Muni narrates to King Pracinabarhisat how this Puranjana died thinking of his lovely wife and in turn took birth as a woman in his next life as the daughter of King Vidarbha.

 

This daughter of King Vidarbha was then given in marriage to the powerful King Malayadvaja who became a Paramatma realized yogi.

 

After the husband of Vidarbhi, King Malayadvaja, had left his body one day in a yogic trance, Vidarbhi began to arrange for his cremation.

She was very devastated by the loss of her husband.

 

Then, as Vidarbhi grieved and suffered the loss of her husband and began arranging for the cremation with a heavy heart, an old brahmana friend of King Puranjana came on the scene and started to minister to Vidarbhi with words of wisdom and faith.

 

the Brahmana said:

 

 

Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man lying here? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body. Don't you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me.

 

Srila Prabhupada writes in purport:

 

 

When a person's relative dies, renunciation is automatically visible. Consultation with the Supersoul seated within everyone's heart is possible only when one is completely free from the contamination of material attachment. One who is sincere and pure gets an opportunity to consult with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His Paramātmā feature sitting within everyone's heart. The Paramātmā is always the caitya-guru, the spiritual master within, and He comes before one externally as the instructor and initiator spiritual master. The Lord can reside within the heart, and He can also come out before a person and give him instructions. Thus the spiritual master is not different from the Supersoul sitting within the heart. An uncontaminated soul or living entity can get a chance to meet the Paramātmā face to face. Just as one gets a chance to consult with the Paramātmā within his heart, one also gets a chance to see Him actually situated before him. Then one can take instructions from the Supersoul directly. This is the duty of the pure devotee: to see the bona fide spiritual master and consult with the Supersoul within the heart.

When the brāhmaṇa asked the woman who the man lying on the floor was, she answered that he was her spiritual master and that she was perplexed about what to do in his absence. At such a time the Supersoul immediately appears, provided the devotee is purified in heart by following the directions of the spiritual master. A sincere devotee who follows the instructions of the spiritual master certainly gets direct instructions from his heart from the Supersoul. Thus a sincere devotee is always helped directly or indirectly by the spiritual master and the Supersoul. This is confirmed in Caitanya-caritāmṛta: guru-kṛṣṇa-prasāde pāya bhakti-latā-bīja. If the devotee serves his spiritual master sincerely, Kṛṣṇa automatically becomes pleased. Yasya prasādād bhagavad-prasādaḥ. By satisfying the spiritual master, one automatically satisfies Kṛṣṇa. Thus the devotee becomes enriched by both the spiritual master and Kṛṣṇa. The Supersoul is eternally the friend of the living entity and always remains with him. The Supersoul has always been ready to help the living entity, even before the creation of this material world. It is therefore stated here: yenāgre vicacartha. The word agre means "before the creation." Thus the Supersoul has been accompanying the living entity since before the creation.

 

 

to be continued..........................

[Guest guest]

In the old gita, I liked that picture of the empiricist studying all there is to study, and the devotee doing arotika. After perfection of the quest for white noise science, the empiricist (not unlike einstein) concludes that worshipping God is the full meal deal, as does the devotee.

 

In relation to this topic, I think of Sri Puskara, the transcendental aircraft that gives Sita, Rama, Laksmana, the pious son of Ravana, Hanuman, and Sugriva a ride out of Lanka of the Waves. Allegorical? Bridges made from floating rocks? Allegorical? To the devotees, such things are wonderful as well as the ABSOLUTE TRUTH that governs their lives. Lord Varaha holding the Earth in His tusks is the way it happened, periode, poetic, yes, history, yes. Faith? No, much stronger as defined by Srila Prabhupada is the word "shradha", which cannot be defined with limited words like faith and belief. Realized in the heart, with confirmation by Lord Balarama who never leaves for a second each and everything that lives, from Lord Brahma to the ant.

 

Now, the empiricist (not a demon, rather a Didymous Thomas figure) studies these things. Lifetime after lifetime, and the same truth is revealed. The bridge to Lanka exists. Grand mother ships like Sri Puskara still carry demogods about, slightly visible to some humans on occasion. The empiricist find these things out. Huge scars under the atlantic looking like a tusk fit there. The twelfth planet hovering above the 50 mile high Mt Kailasa and beings going from place to place. Velokovsky is am empiricist who has come to personally know Lord Indra. Stitchen has come to know by empiricism of bygone advanced civilizations, Cremo (a devotee playing the role of empiricist) has proved life on this planet is not in concurrence with the present day scientific speculative time frames.

 

FANTASTIC. Im only 57, and the dick tracy science fiction talking watch of the fifties is owned by every kid today, and they call it a blackberry. Allegory means that it doesnt fit into the mind. It doesnt conform to science. But the one-time utterance of harinama means that one is far more advanced that the most elevated empiricist, and only when the empiricist gives up his quest to prove the inconceivable and surrewnder to Lord Acintya, then as the picture in the gita aqffirms, the devotee and the empiricist are one.

 

Didymous Thomas, as he touched the fatal scars of Lord Jesus, prays, "My lord, My God." The architect submits to the carpenter.

 

No allegory, no fairy tale. Why be miserable scientist for millions of births when shradha is attained by one sincere utterance of Harinama.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, waiting to hitch a ride on Sri Puskara, the ultimate party wagon, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

In the allegory of the story we find out that this Brahman who is preaching to Vidarbhi is representing the Paramatma.

This Brahmana continues:

 

 

My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.

This is a very instructive purport on the matter of the fall of the jiva.

Srila Prabhupada writes:

 

 

As stated in Bhagavad-gītā (7.27):

icchā-dveṣa-samutthena

dvandva-mohena bhārata

sarva-bhūtāni sammohaḿ

sarge yānti parantapa

"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate." This is an explanation of how the living entity falls down into this material world. In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate. The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the Varāha Purāṇa, He expands Himself in viṣṇu-tattva (the svāḿśa expansion) and in His marginal potency (the vibhinnāḿśa, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnāḿśa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. In the Prema-vivarta it is said:

kṛṣṇa-bahirmukha hañā bhoga-vāñchā kare

nikaṭa-stha māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare

The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Kṛṣṇa Himself or imitate Kṛṣṇa, he falls down into the material world. Since Kṛṣṇa is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svāḿśa expansion (Paramātmā), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead.

By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer. That is to say, the living entity takes his position within a material body. Wanting to take a very exalted position, the living entity instead becomes entangled in a repetition of birth and death. He selects his position as a human being, a demigod, a cat, a dog, a tree, etc. In this way the living entity selects a body out of the 8,400,000 forms and tries to satisfy himself by a variety of material enjoyment. The Supersoul, however, does not like him to do this. Consequently, the Supersoul instructs him to surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Lord then takes charge of the living entity. But unless the living entity is uncontaminated by material desires, he cannot surrender to the Supreme Lord. In Bhagavad-gītā (5.29) the Lord says:

bhoktāraḿ yajña-tapasāḿ

sarva-loka-maheśvaram

suhṛdaḿ sarva-bhūtānāḿ

jñātvā māḿ śāntim ṛcchati

"The sages, knowing Me as the ultimate purpose of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attain peace from the pangs of material miseries."

The Supreme Lord is the supreme friend of everyone; however, no one can take advantage of the supreme friend's instructions while making his own plans to become happy and entangling himself in the modes of material nature. When there is creation, the living entities take on different forms according to past desires. This means that all the species or forms of life are simultaneously created. Darwin's theory stating that no human being existed from the beginning but that humans evolved after many, many years is simply a nonsensical theory. From Vedic literature we find that the first creature within the universe is Lord Brahmā. Being the most intelligent personality, Lord Brahmā could take charge of creating all the variety found within this material world.

 

 

so, here in this fable of Srimad Bhagavatam we find some similar concept to the fall from Goloka idea.

But, in the purport Srila Prabhupada gives some illimination and explains things more practically.

[Guruvani]

It's a little curious that in the Bhagavatam verse above that the Brahmana, who represents the Paramatma is telling Vidarbhi that "you gave up my company", as opposed to "you gave up my service" and "took a position in this material world".

 

So, the innumerable jivas that are of the Brahmajyoti effulgence of the Lord are in the "company" of the Lord, yet they are not actually in service in the proper sense of loving devotion.

 

So, a fallen jiva "gives up the company" of the Paramatma and takes the position of a sense enjoyer in the material world imitating Krishna - the one and only spiritual sense enjoyer.

 

Because Krishna is a sense enjoyer, it is in our nature to have a similar instinct to enjoy the senses, but the problem is that if we try to enjoy the senses apart from pleasing the senses of the Lord, then we get implicated in samsara.

 

Krishna has well established that only HE is the sense enjoyer and that all living entities are meant to contribute to the sense enjoyment of Krishna.

[krsna]

Truth is revealed by the grace of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, not by one's own endeavours. By taking full faith in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as being Radha and Krishna combined, one has to accept the full authority of the Bhagavatam, as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself declared it to be the most important scripture.

So whether it has been changed or adulterated since it's earliest conception is irrelevant due to Mahaprabhu's approval of the Bhagavatam during His time on this earth.

Lord Rsabadeva instructs us to have full faith in the scriptures(S.B.5.5.13). :deal: :deal:

[theist]

Bump

[Guruvani]

this doesn't change the fact that Narada Muni preached the same way that Srila Prabhupada did.

Whether or not it is allegory is not the issue.

The point is that Srila Prabhupada preached the same way that we hear in the Bhagavatam.

Allegorical or not is not the issue at this point.

 

The point is that the preaching of Srila Prabhupada conforms to the message of the Bhagavatam and his disciples are following in his footsteps.

 

It not as simple as "falling from the tatastha".

The Bhagavatam doesn't really make it that cut and dry.

 

The whole issue of the fall of the jiva was not dealt with by Mahaprabhu as some simple idea that we all fell from the brahmajyoti.

 

Anyone that thinks so is full of themselves and has not studied the preaching of Mahaprabhu.

 

There is no hard and fast conclusion in the teachings of Mahaprabhu that the jiva just fell from the brahmajyoti.

 

If there is, then please show your evidence.

 

oh............... you can't find any?

 

I didn't think so.............

[Vigraha]

 

Truth is revealed by the grace of Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, not by one's own endeavours. By taking full faith in Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as being Radha and Krishna combined, one has to accept the full authority of the Bhagavatam, as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself declared it to be the most important scripture.

So whether it has been changed or adulterated since it's earliest conception is irrelevant due to Mahaprabhu's approval of the Bhagavatam during His time on this earth.

Lord Rsabadeva instructs us to have full faith in the scriptures(S.B.5.5.13). :deal: :deal:

 

Who is this krsna dasa, all his posts are brilliant

[Vigraha]

Srila PrabhupAda: 'So when you engage yourself in the soul's activities, then gradually your intelligence, mind, senses, become spiritualized, or original. Then material activities stop. At the present moment without (indistinct) spiritually (indistinct) we are acting on the platform of gross senses. But if we begin our activities from the opposite side, from the soul side, then everything becomes spiritualized. But the question of giving up the senses, no, it has to be purified. SarvopAdhi-vinirmuktaM tat-paratvena nirmalam [Cc. Madhya 19.170]. Senses (indistinct) it should be purified.

 

Srila PrabhupAda: "One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books... One must accept a Vaisnava guru (adau gurv-asrayam), and then by questions and answers one should gradually learn what pure devotional service to Krsna is. That is called the parampara system." (Cc. Antya-lila 7.53, purp.) — AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[Guruvani]

 

 

"One should not proudly think that one can understand the transcendental loving service of the Lord simply by reading books...

 

So, I guess we should just read letters and that is the way?

[Vigraha]

 

So, I guess we should just read letters and that is the way?

 

Maybe that's referring to engaging in service and chanting Hare Krishna, going on Sankirtan associating with devotees etc and not being attached to only Knowledge. Living the Bhagavatam is Knowing the Bhagavatam.

 

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:aXT927wSGwQJ:www.utahkrishnas.com/main/page.asp%3Fid%3D981+the+jnani+and+the+street+sweeper&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=au

[CCC]

In my opinion I dont care about the "tales or fairytales" of the bhagvatam, because Krsna is unlimited and all is possible in Him.

 

so every tale or fairytale exist in some part of the infinite creation and was a or will be facts.

[Kulapavana]

we need to ask ourselves a question:

 

Precisely in which case is it necessary to determine what is a fable, and what actually happened?

 

most of the time it does not matter, but we have to be careful relegating things to the fables category or we will end up saying that Krsna leela (including Kurukshetra) never took place in this world... and that is actually what some Saraswata Gaudiyas are sometimes saying. IMO that is very unfortunate and perhaps even more dangerous for the tradition then any sahajiya tendencies.

[theist]

 

we need to ask ourselves a question:

 

Precisely in which case is it necessary to determine what is a fable, and what actually happened?

 

most of the time it does not matter, but we have to be careful relegating things to the fables category or we will end up saying that Krsna leela (including Kurukshetra) never took place in this world... and that is actually what some Saraswata Gaudiyas are sometimes saying. IMO that is very unfortunate and perhaps even more dangerous for the tradition then any sahajiya tendencies.

 

Oh and why is it more dangerous exactly? I don't believe in a historical battle of Kurukshetra. I don't argue the point because I don't think it matters but to hinge one's faith to the historical necessity of such a battle misses the point of the absolute truth which is present in the Gita either way.

 

Are you saying that Krsna's teaching to Arjuna about the self being spiritual as opposed to the material body is somehow voided if 18 million soldiers didn't die on that field?

 

That makes no sense to me.

[mahak]

No, but the fact that all died because Krsna pulled them in (his universal form) is important to the whole idea. The war is there, arjunas pacificism is there, krsnas instruction about his will will be done despite arjunas acceptance or rejection of bhagavad gita, all of this stuff is necessary.

 

The pyramids are a fable, too. But there they are, explain the technology of the ramps that enabled these workers to push that rock up that steem incline. Where are the ramps? Hanumans bridge is there, too, never seen until NASA filmed it. Machu Pichu, the runways for the airships only seen from space.

 

Dinosaurs are a fable, so is oil from vegetation buried by lava.

 

But fable busters are there too, like tesla, velakovski.They know that Mt Meru is real, they know the planet Venus was perched atop this 88 mile high mountain. They know Venus covered 1/4 of the sky and humans saw it.

 

And then we have prabhupada, who has told us of even greater phenomena that we cannot hold in our kali yuga pygmy sized brains. He says King Prthu milked the earth planet for all its natural resources, that he carved hills and valleys, great oceans and rivers with his bare hands. Imagine, a 5000 year old tome that has facts just discovered a few years ago by the plate techtonicrats and yet to be discovered by the theoretic physicists.

 

18,000,000 is a lot to die, but the luciferian nagas plan a greater culling, maybe by next year. Remember to duck, and think Arci - Prthu as the chimes of freedom flash.

[Guruvani]

Srimad Bhagavatam is a Purana.

Purana means ancient history.

So, the Vaishnava acharyas promote that the battle of Kurukshetra was an actual event that took place.

In that Purana of ancient history there are some parables and fables that were told by the sages and munis of the Vedic lore.

 

So, if we reject the Bhagavat Purana or Mahabharat as anything less than an actual historical account, then we are rejecting the version and faith of the great acharyas, sages and munis of the Vaishnava tradition.

 

I don't see the value or benefit in rejecting the Bhagavat Purana or Mahabharata as actual historical accounts.

 

The great Vaishnava acharyas promote them as actual historical accounts.

 

To reject that is in a way saying that these great acharyas were either gullible, naive or illusioned.

 

What is the value, what is the benefit to let the mind override the teachings of the great acharyas and reject the Itihasa and Purana as anything less than actual historical accounts?

 

When we let the mind dictate the terms with which we accept the teachings of the acharyas then we are in a sense manufacturing our own religion of what we believe and what we don't believe as opposed to what the acharyas teach as fact.

 

I guess there is a lot of this picking and choosing and manufacturing of personally tailored religions that our minds fabricate according to our conditioned nature.

[theist]

 

No, but the fact that all died because Krsna pulled them in (his universal form) is important to the whole idea. The war is there, arjunas pacificism is there, krsnas instruction about his will will be done despite arjunas acceptance or rejection of bhagavad gita, all of this stuff is necessary.

 

All it means is that Krsna is all devouring death. That's the point and would still be the point rather Arjuna was standing in the midst of two armies seeing the Virat rupa or you are understanding the truth of it from on top of the Empire State building.

 

I don't care if someone takes it as historical truth or not. That doesn't affect me in the slightest. I don't. But one thing is for sure if you just memorize the facts of this story (Mahabharata and Gita)as you have learned them but never come to understand the war is within you then I would have to say you have not touched Bhagavad-gita.

 

Your statement that the pyramids are a fable I will not try to understand.

 

You always get uptight when I say I don't accept many of the stories in the Bhagavatam as historically literal. Why is that? What do my beliefs have to do with you?

[theist]

Well I have no position I need to defend to anyone so I won't bother. I asked a question of Kulapavana and will see if he answers.

[mahak]

Im never up tight about you, brother, we go too far back. This is my point in the other threads and these as well. The things that divide us are of no consequence, no one is going down for not accepting every dot and dash of the veda. Especially when the author Himself was not all that thrilled with what he wrote.

 

The point is that Krsna is reality, and His Name uttered by anyone has the effect of making all knowledge manifest in the heart. The sun, the moon, and the stars are flakes in the puddle in the hoof print of a cow. If one can see Prthu milking earth in her form of a cow, or takes Prthu as maha-catastrophe massive shift in tectonic plates that separate the supercontinent into seven separate continents, it doesnt matter, as long as one accepts that Krsna has done this. Like Oppenheimer, who fostered the a-blast, could only say that Krsna is such a blast, because he was just playing around with little particles unseen by the naked eye.

 

I like the personal touch of bhagavat purana, mahabharata, and ramayana. I love adventure stories, intrigue, passion, horror, pure love emotion in literary form. I see such literature as having personal form, so much so, that I never let anyone deride the version of ramayana and mahabharata I love, even though the author is not a religionist, philosopher or any kind of guru. He is a story teller, and he has captivated me immensely. Once I mentioned him on VNN forums, and the fanatics had a field day telling me what an aweful job he did on these works, his mayavad leanings, blah, blah, blah. I only care about the tears rolling down my cheek as the hairs stand on end when I see Srimati Sitadevi's sweet dealings with guha the hunter.

 

http://geocities.com/mahaksadasa/guha.html

 

Do I BELIEVE monkeys and bears teaming up with God as Man battling the reptilians from beneath the surface of the earth? What the hell is belief? I dont care for belief. I only care about the apsara queen I heard once singing "jaya jaya rama jaya sita rama", and whose voice is loud and clear as I dive into the fantasy of Sri Valmiki. Was he living only in his bones covered by an anthill? Sure, why not, when I consider what kind of stool I find myself living in, gurgling and all. At least he can write a decent book.

 

Chant Hare Krsna and your life will be sublime. This is what he said way back when, I did, and it is. He never said that this hinges on understanding the cosmos, which even carl sagan only had infantile grasp of. He never said I have to go back to origins of untraceble pasts to discover my original position, he instead gave me a song and a plate of really tasty stuff..

 

hare krsna, see, the whole TRUE is right here, in this very sentence, as yudhisthira stated, all else is empty, black space and nothing more.

 

haribol, ys in cooperation, mahaksadasa

[theist]

Yeah I know you love the stories Mahak. I like them too as stories. Not all stories are lila in the sense we mean lila. Some are.

 

Take Hanuman building the bridge to Sri Lanka and the little spider kicking sand. The truth of that story has been the one that keeps me going even though my efforts are so pitifull and fruitless in terms of results. Rather Hanuman did or did not build the bridge and whether or not there was a spider there kicking sand trying to help is irrelevant to me. For me the purport of the story is that no matter how insignificant we are we can please Krsna just as much as the really big time devotees simply based on effort and sincerity of purpose.

 

What value to us is it if we just memorize the story and never catch the meaning and apply it to our own lives?

 

I needn't believe in the details of the birth story of Maharaja Prthu and how he conducted his reign in contrast to Vena to see the message on what a good ruler is expected to do.

 

The writers put these truths down in a way that invites the attention of the audience and holds it and makes for a colorful retelling so it stays alive.

 

However since the subject is God there is no limit to how fantastic the true facts may be which makes debating these things meaningless.

[mahak]

yes, bro, its so perfect. Because we cannot fathom God, we conclude he is just as bound up as we are. And the glory of the storyteller is how he appears to us. The truth of the story is in the name of the hero, all else is just how wonderful he really is, full of wonder. Stories invoke wonder, but we even know krsna is not bound of the limitations of even the message of the story. In other words, Lord Prthu is much greater than the words we use to describe his appearance as the successor of King Vena. So he milks the wolrd and makes the continents, rivers, and mountains and valleys? No Big deal, when we consider that the entire universe is just something that passes thru the pores of Lord Narayana while being massaged by Queen Maha-laxmi.

 

The words Krsna, Rama, Prthu, these are the gist of the story. Figuring it all out is not possibel. Even Radha and Krsna are stunned by wonder as they gaze in the mirror at their own forms, they even dont understand. But they still gaze, unable to be distracted.

 

hariobol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Kulapavana]

 

Oh and why is it more dangerous exactly? I don't believe in a historical battle of Kurukshetra. I don't argue the point because I don't think it matters but to hinge one's faith to the historical necessity of such a battle misses the point of the absolute truth which is present in the Gita either way.

 

Are you saying that Krsna's teaching to Arjuna about the self being spiritual as opposed to the material body is somehow voided if 18 million soldiers didn't die on that field?

 

That makes no sense to me.

 

If you dont believe that there was a battle of Kurukshetra, then the next step is to deny the actual existence of Krsna and Arjuna. Thus Gita becomes merely a relative and symbolic story, just like the Mayavadis preach. Thus the maya-vada enters the Gaudiya camp through the back door, in the name of "deeper understanding".

 

What you believe is your business, but to preach that the battle of Kurukshetra never happened is NOT what our sampradaya preaches. People who peddle this relativistic philosophy are thus negating the historicity of Krsna and the entire epiphany is nothing but a big lie.

 

I'm surprised I have to explain it to you. Really.

[theist]

 

If you dont believe that there was a battle of Kurukshetra, then the next step is to deny the actual existence of Krsna and Arjuna. Thus Gita becomes merely a relative and symbolic story, just like the Mayavadis preach. Thus the maya-vada enters the Gaudiya camp through the back door, in the name of "deeper understanding".

Excuse me there Kulapavana but I will take my own steps. Have I ever denied the actual existence of Krsna? When and if I do then you can use words like Mayavadi. Until then ......!

 

Neither a literal war or war as a metaphor is a deeper understanding. Try to understand this point. The deeper point is the war within the oneself. That war you have to fight either way. You cannot avoid it. You cannot withdraw from the battlefield saying, "it was Arjuna's war not mine.", "Krsna was talking to him not me".

 

That level is where the depth is not the question of historic war or not.

 

Devotees sometimes make the same mistake as the Christians who think that because Jesus faced the cross (same message as Arjuna's war BTW) then they don't have to they only have to repeat the story of Christ's work totally forgetting the statement of Christ to his disciples to, "Pick up YOUR CROSS and follow me.Armed with yoga O' Arjuna stand and fight.!"

 

 

What you believe is your business, but to preach that the battle of Kurukshetra never happened is NOT what our sampradaya preaches. People who peddle this relativistic philosophy are thus negating the historicity of Krsna and the entire epiphany is nothing but a big lie.

I don't preach. I am happy to to say it is my belief and that is all I have ever done. I don't think it matters either way. On the other hand you are the one in the dangerous position. Because your faith is linked to the historisicity of the war and if that faith is even shaken then POOF! there goes your faith in Krsna consciousness. It is you that is in a dangerous position.

 

Your only proof of the war is in the tradition of your teachers. There is no external proof for the war like artifacts etc. I have seen you question and disagree with these same teachers over the moon issue for example so where is your consistentcy?

 

 

I'm surprised I have to explain it to you. Really.

I am not surprised that you make such silly statements because clearly you do not even understand what my position is and has been. I would request that you first understand my position then agree or disagree.

 

Frankly after stating it again I doubt that you will take the time to understand it as you never have before.