krsna Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 To glorify them? To make them stand out as most examplary? To show the world that His devotee never perishes? Gita... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radhagovind Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 To glorify them? To make them stand out as most examplary? To show the world that His devotee never perishes? Gita... what you said is correct,and he wants to test us to see if we are really what we say and they you are not just saying you are a devotee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 what you said is correct,and he wants to test us to see if we are really what we say and they you are not just saying you are a devotee. This sounds more like Christian theology (cf. the Book of Job). Can anybody cite shastra confirming this is correct Vaishnava siddhanta? I like to think of Sri Krishna as a cowherd boy playing in the forest with His friends. He may have time for a wrestling match or a practical joke, but, as I envision Him, He has no interest in "tests". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Hare Krishna. What do you think? What is the difference between a "test" and a sinful reaction? Or should we consider them the same? And does it matter, or should we just aspire after Krishna Consciousness anyway? Would like to hear all your opinions. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Hare Krishna. What do you think? What is the difference between a "test" and a sinful reaction? Or should we consider them the same? And does it matter, or should we just aspire after Krishna Consciousness anyway? Would like to hear all your opinions. Thank you. This is an important distinction, since we are still receiving the fruits of our past actions (Karma--though it is said the Lord will allow His servants to burn off their Karma in less horrific ways than if they were unrepentant sense-enjoyers) even as we embark on the path of Devotion. This verse from Sri Prapanna Jivanamrita struck me as particularly profound: http://www.mandala.com.au/prapanna/ch-3.html 3.9 sarvatra tad anukampa darsanad eva tat-siddhih - tat te 'nukampam susamiksamano bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam hrd-vag-vapurbhir vidadhan namas te jiveta yo mukti-pade sa daya-bhak <table width="95%"> <!-- Table 25 Row 01 --> <tbody><tr> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Sri Brahmanah </td> </tr> </tbody></table> This is accomplished only when one can see the grace of the Supreme Lord in every situation - "One who, in the hope of achieving Your grace, goes on enduring the inauspicious fruit of his own karma, and passes his days practicing devotion unto You in every thought, word, and deed - such a person is heir to the land of freedom: he attains to the plane of positive immortality." <!-- Table 26 Row 01 --> <table width="95%"><tbody><tr><td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> </td> <td> Lord Brahma</td></tr></tbody></table> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted May 17, 2007 Report Share Posted May 17, 2007 Can you explain just why an omniscient being Who resides in the heart of every living entity would need to test a devotee to ascertain their degree of purity? Doesn't the Lord know us better than we know ourselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Can you explain just why an omniscient being Who resides in the heart of every living entity would need to test a devotee to ascertain their degree of purity? Doesn't the Lord know us better than we know ourselves? Here's a famous "Prabhupada said" quote: "Krsna knows everything except when we will surrender." How is this? Because the Lord created our minute free will. Then this is all by His will or desire. Reality the Beautiful. Remember, He is for Himself and by Himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Here's a famous "Prabhupada said" quote: "Krsna knows everything except when we will surrender." How is this? Because the Lord created our minute free will. Then this is all by His will or desire. Reality the Beautiful. Remember, He is for Himself and by Himself. But, of course, kind sir. "When" we will surrender, perhaps He may choose not to know. But "if" we are surrendered is immediately obvious to Him, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 But, of course, kind sir. "When" we will surrender, perhaps He may choose not to know. But "if" we are surrendered is immediately obvious to Him, no? Why was Prabhupada gored by a bull just after taking sannyasa? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 Why was Prabhupada gored by a bull just after taking sannyasa? If a hero in a drama was not tested then how would be know that he is a hero? "All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages." --From As You Like It (II, vii, 139-143) by William Shakespeare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted May 18, 2007 Report Share Posted May 18, 2007 So, are you implying that Srila Prabhupada's Sweet Lord was feeling a bit sadistic that day? Didn't the bull also have free will? Or was it a fully-surrendered bull being used as a puppet by the Lord? If a hero in a drama was not tested then how would be know that he is a hero?"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players. They have their exits and their entrances, And one man in his time plays many parts, His acts being seven ages." --From As You Like It (II, vii, 139-143) by William Shakespeare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted June 6, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 So, are you implying that Srila Prabhupada's Sweet Lord was feeling a bit sadistic that day? Didn't the bull also have free will? Or was it a fully-surrendered bull being used as a puppet by the Lord? A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner. -- English proverb;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Since Krisna is the Supreme, then why shouldn't He be the Supreme Tester..? He wants to know what you are made of, when you decide to make yourself pure in desire, thought, word and deed..... I gues he thinks like this...: "Hey, who is this person who wants to penetrate into My Worlds.....?" Oke, He knows us already, but you know....we're involved in a play here, right ??? So that's what I can make out of all this.....correct me if I'm wrong..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 No not to glorify them?He doesnt like EGO,glorification is not his idea,he gives Mukthi to his devotees,all sufferings are because of ones Karma and nothing to do with Krsna.. God is not a sadist...he need to put people to suffering so that they think of him or become great..its a misconception started by Christians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Life is not a game and god isnt a player to play us all,what we sow is what we will reap,its not like you apply for a job and the CEO of the company gives you a online test and then give u appointment letter to GOloka . No one knows for sure how we are all here,but we all know we make our destinies by the way we work towards it,god doesn’t side his devotees and test them separately,that would ruin the balance of the world. Krsna has said clearly that in Geetha,Karma is what the world is run by,not him,he played his role in that war but he cant alter anyones fate,if that was the case Abhimanyu could’ve been saved and Karnas identity revealed earlier.. Everyone have their dues to pay,you pay yours but don’t be misled that suffering is good and don’t be passive and timid,do something about every problem in life…God is not a GENIE,nor he is a sadist. There is no mention of Krsna telling people he will test them,Bhakthi is not measurable by your suffering,if that was the case all pleasures will not lead to god,they do,if you have him in your mind you will reach him Take Baktha Ramadasu,his suffering was because of his past Karma,not that Lord Rama wanted him to be jailed and caned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 I must say I heavily disagree with the NO TESTS THING....... You see, in my opinion the worlds above are exactly as the worlds here in this way that there is a hierarchy, one boss, the president and his ministers and their secretaries and then the whole way down... If I would apply for a job as a minister, they would blow themselves away out of their chairs of laughter because of my application, right ?? I mean, I am not qualified to be one, but if I have studied for years and years and have some experiences build up and a name in that field then they would consider me for the job and what would they do.....check my references and check me out totally, right ??? They like to know what I am made of and will put me to a test..... Likewise, if you wanna go to the higher worlds, then the higher beings first will check you out, and then raise their eyebrows in amazement and wonder, then they will put you through a test to see what you are made of, it is like this...... In my own experiences I have realized a thing or two, especially with this becoming Brahmachari thing..... Anyway, a test should be seen as an opportunity to show what you are made of and not as a suffering thing..... I mean, when Buddha wanted to become enlightened, then he had to pass some tests, like when MAYA came to visit him, or Jesus when he was tempted by this devil, these were all tests and why shouldn t the same thing not apply to the ones engaged in spiritual life ??? Just a thought.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 I must say I heavily disagree with the NO TESTS THING....... You see, in my opinion the worlds above are exactly as the worlds here in this way that there is a hierarchy, one boss, the president and his ministers and their secretaries and then the whole way down... If I would apply for a job as a minister, they would blow themselves away out of their chairs of laughter because of my application, right ?? I mean, I am not qualified to be one, but if I have studied for years and years and have some experiences build up and a name in that field then they would consider me for the job and what would they do.....check my references and check me out totally, right ??? They like to know what I am made of and will put me to a test..... Likewise, if you wanna go to the higher worlds, then the higher beings first will check you out, and then raise their eyebrows in amazement and wonder, then they will put you through a test to see what you are made of, it is like this...... In my own experiences I have realized a thing or two, especially with this becoming Brahmachari thing..... Anyway, a test should be seen as an opportunity to show what you are made of and not as a suffering thing..... I mean, when Buddha wanted to become enlightened, then he had to pass some tests, like when MAYA came to visit him, or Jesus when he was tempted by this devil, these were all tests and why shouldn t the same thing not apply to the ones engaged in spiritual life ??? Just a thought.... Like u urself pointed out its just a Thought,no one knows for sure if GOD Tests u when u suffer,as per Bgeetha and most Puranas one lives and dies based on his karma,and please dont corelate God who is filled with pure love to the western theory of being a taskmaster or a CEO of a company. Budhism is the most confused religion,so dont even mention them here,there r different theories of it,one say Budha said no desire,if that is the case being Enlightened is also a desire,some say Budhism lets u discipline urself.. Jesus is not Hindu and this is about Hinduism here...cause the guy who started this asked y krsna is hurting him constantly...which he isnt,unless he comes and tell him there is no need to just assume and say ya this is for future greatness,no thats not what he said in BGeetha and dont give people false hopes,God doesnt need to test u,he knows what ur capable of,this is not a physical workout contest.where u keep building ur muscles,Bakthi and Worldly life cant be confused,there is no limit in Bakthi,so ur saying this guys suffering is endless too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Like u urself pointed out its just a Thought,no one knows for sure if GOD Tests u when u suffer,as per Bgeetha and most Puranas one lives and dies based on his karma,and please dont corelate God who is filled with pure love to the western theory of being a taskmaster or a CEO of a company.Budhism is the most confused religion,so dont even mention them here,there r different theories of it,one say Budha said no desire,if that is the case being Enlightened is also a desire,some say Budhism lets u discipline urself.. Jesus is not Hindu and this is about Hinduism here...cause the guy who started this asked y krsna is hurting him constantly...which he isnt,unless he comes and tell him there is no need to just assume and say ya this is for future greatness,no thats not what he said in BGeetha and dont give people false hopes,God doesnt need to test u,he knows what ur capable of,this is not a physical workout contest.where u keep building ur muscles,Bakthi and Worldly life cant be confused,there is no limit in Bakthi,so ur saying this guys suffering is endless too? Yes. People get bad reactions from their very own past bad karmas and then then they put it on to Krishna testing them a giving them a hard time for some unknown reason. And they may even come up with examples in some scriptures of this testing etc. People put up all sorts of quotes from scriptures just to support their very own notions and hypothesis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted June 6, 2007 Report Share Posted June 6, 2007 Okey Guest, have it your way......there are no tests..........and who said that a test is suffering ???? I didn't....but there are no tests...... Gaura Premananda Hari Haribooooooooooooooooooool............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 CC Madhya 4.189 http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/4/189/en "To test the intense love of Mādhavendra Purī, Gopāla, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, ordered him to bring sandalwood from Nīlācala, and when Mādhavendra Purī passed this examination, the Lord became very merciful to him. http://vedabase.net/cc/madhya/4/187/en "Śrī Gopāla wanted to show how intensely Mādhavendra Purī loved Kṛṣṇa; therefore He asked him to go to Nīlācala to fetch sandalwood and camphor. "After receiving the transcendental orders of Gopāla, this great personality traveled thousands of miles just to collect sandalwood by begging. [4.180] So very glorifed is Madhavendra Puri and now we know the depth of his love for Krsna. [gHari] Madhya 4.197 MAdhavendra PurI recited this verse again and again at the end of his material existence. Thus uttering this verse, he attained the ultimate goal of life. <center>ayi dIna-dayArdra nAtha he mathurA-nAtha kadAvalokyase hRdayaM tvad-aloka-kAtaraM dayita bhrAmyati kiM karomy aham </center> ayi--O My Lord; dIna--on the poor; dayA-Ardra--compassionate; nAtha--O master; he--O; mathurA-nAtha--the master of MathurA; kadA--when; avalokyase--I shall see You; hRdayam--My heart; tvat--of You; aloka--without seeing; kAtaram--very much aggrieved; dayita--O most beloved; bhrAmyati--becomes overwhelmed; kim--what; karomi--shall do; aham--I. "O My Lord! O most merciful master! O master of MathurA! When shall I see You again? Because of My not seeing You, My agitated heart has become unsteady. O most beloved one, what shall I do now?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 Yeah, GHari..... exactly my thoughts, I didn't know this story, but it shows how we all are tested at some point in life...... One question...... As Krishna is love and light, then whenever He decides to test, He can be testing you in the form of darkness and evil also right ??? So I know that Krishna is like the Sun and Maya is darkness, so how to use the Sun to scare darkness away, in other words, how to scare Krishna away, it's like fighting God Himself, how can you fight God, I don't wanna fight God..... Anyway....it seems complicated and I cannot be specific here, but in our scriptures (or others) are there such examples...? Or is Krishna, in the form of darkness, just being protective for His devotee....? Oke, have to get some Darshan at Mangala Arati now...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 CC Antya 3.102: A landholder named Rāmacandra Khān was the zamindar of that district. He was envious of Vaiṣṇavas and was therefore a great atheist. CC Antya 3.103: Unable to tolerate that such respect was being offered to Haridāsa Ṭhākura, Rāmacandra Khān planned in various ways to dishonor him. CC Antya 3.104: By no means could he find any fault in the character of Haridāsa Ṭhākura. Therefore he called for local prostitutes and began a plan to discredit His Holiness. CC Antya 3.105: Rāmacandra Khān said to the prostitutes, "There is a mendicant named Haridāsa Ṭhākura. All of you devise a way to deviate him from his vows of austerity." CC Antya 3.106: Among the prostitutes, one attractive young girl was selected. "I shall attract the mind of Haridāsa Ṭhākura," she promised, "within three days." CC Antya 3.107: Rāmacandra Khān said to the prostitute, "My constable will go with you so that as soon as he sees you with Haridāsa Ṭhākura, immediately he will arrest him and bring both of you to me." CC Antya 3.108: The prostitute replied, "First let me have union with him once; then the second time I shall take your constable with me to arrest him." CC Antya 3.109: At night the prostitute, after dressing herself most attractively, went to the cottage of Haridāsa Ṭhākura with great jubilation. CC Antya 3.110: After offering obeisances to the tulasī plant, she went to the door of Haridāsa Ṭhākura, offered him obeisances and stood there. CC Antya 3.111: Exposing part of her body to his view, she sat down on the threshold of the door and spoke to him in very sweet words. CC Antya 3.112: "My dear Ṭhākura, O great preacher, great devotee, you are so beautifully built, and your youth is just beginning. Who is the woman who could control her mind after seeing you? CC Antya 3.113: "I am eager to be united with you. My mind is greedy for this. If I don't obtain you, I shall not be able to keep my body and soul together." CC Antya 3.114-115: Haridāsa Ṭhākura replied, "I shall accept you without fail, but you will have to wait until I have finished chanting my regular rounds on my beads. Until that time, please sit and listen to the chanting of the holy name. As soon as I am finished, I shall fulfill your desire." CC Antya 3.116: Hearing this, the prostitute remained sitting there while Haridāsa Ṭhākura chanted on his beads until the light of morning appeared. CC Antya 3.117: When she saw that it was morning, the prostitute stood up and left. Coming before Rāmacandra Khān, she informed him of all the news. CC Antya 3.118: "Today Haridāsa Ṭhākura has promised to enjoy with me. Tomorrow certainly I shall have union with him." CC Antya 3.119: The next night, when the prostitute came again, Haridāsa Ṭhākura gave her many assurances. CC Antya 3.120: "Last night you were disappointed. Please excuse my offense. I shall certainly accept you. CC Antya 3.121: "Please sit down and hear the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra until my regular chanting is finished. Then your desire will surely be fulfilled." CC Antya 3.122: After offering her obeisances to the tulasī plant and Haridāsa Ṭhākura, she sat down at the door. Hearing Haridāsa Ṭhākura chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, she also chanted, "O my Lord Hari, O my Lord Hari." CC Antya 3.123: When the night came to an end, the prostitute was restless. Seeing this, Haridāsa Ṭhākura spoke to her as follows. CC Antya 3.124: "I have vowed to chant ten million names in a month. I have taken this vow, but now it is nearing its end. CC Antya 3.125: "I thought that today I would be able to finish my performance of yajña, my chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. I tried my best to chant the holy name all night, but I still did not finish. CC Antya 3.126: "Tomorrow I will surely finish, and my vow will be fulfilled. Then it will be possible for me to enjoy with you in full freedom." CC Antya 3.127: The prostitute returned to Rāmacandra Khān and informed him of what had happened. The next day she came earlier, at the beginning of the evening, and stayed with Haridāsa Ṭhākura. CC Antya 3.128: After offering obeisances to the tulasī plant and Haridāsa Ṭhākura, she sat down on the threshold of the room. Thus she began to hear Haridāsa Ṭhākura's chanting, and she also personally chanted "Hari, Hari," the holy name of the Lord. CC Antya 3.129: "Today it will be possible for me to finish my chanting," Haridāsa Ṭhākura informed her. "Then I shall satisfy all your desires." CC Antya 3.130: The night ended while Haridāsa Ṭhākura was chanting, but by his association the mind of the prostitute had changed. CC Antya 3.131: The prostitute, now purified, fell at the lotus feet of Haridāsa Ṭhākura and confessed that Rāmacandra Khān had appointed her to pollute him. CC Antya 3.132: "Because I have taken the profession of a prostitute," she said, "I have performed unlimited sinful acts. My lord, be merciful to me. Deliver my fallen soul." CC Antya 3.133: Haridāsa Ṭhākura replied, "I know everything about the conspiracy of Rāmacandra Khān. He is nothing but an ignorant fool. Therefore his activities do not make me feel unhappy. CC Antya 3.134: "On the very day Rāmacandra Khān was planning his intrigue against me, I would have left this place immediately, but because you came to me I stayed here for three days to deliver you." CC Antya 3.135: The prostitute said, "Kindly act as my spiritual master. Instruct me in my duty, by which I can get relief from material existence." CC Antya 3.136: Haridāsa Ṭhākura replied, "Immediately go home and distribute to the brāhmaṇas whatever property you have. Then come back to this room and stay here forever in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. CC Antya 3.137: "Chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra continuously and render service to the tulasī plant by watering her and offering prayers to her. In this way you will very soon get the opportunity to be sheltered at the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa." CC Antya 3.138: After thus instructing the prostitute about the process of chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra, Haridāsa Ṭhākura stood up and left, continuously chanting "Hari, Hari." CC Antya 3.139: Thereafter, the prostitute distributed to the brāhmaṇas whatever household possessions she had, following the order of her spiritual master. CC Antya 3.140: The prostitute shaved her head clean in accordance with Vaiṣṇava principles and stayed in that room wearing only one cloth. Following in the footsteps of her spiritual master, she began chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa 300,000 times a day. She chanted throughout the entire day and night. CC Antya 3.141: She worshiped the tulasī plant, following in the footsteps of her spiritual master. Instead of eating regularly, she chewed whatever food she received as alms, and if nothing was supplied she would fast. Thus by eating frugally and fasting she conquered her senses, and as soon as her senses were controlled, symptoms of love of Godhead appeared in her person. CC Antya 3.142: Thus the prostitute became a celebrated devotee. She became very advanced in spiritual life, and many stalwart Vaiṣṇavas would come to see her. CC Antya 3.143: Seeing the sublime character of the prostitute, everyone was astonished. Everyone glorified the influence of Haridāsa Ṭhākura and offered him obeisances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 GHari Ki Jay !!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :deal: :deal: :deal: :deal: :deal: :deal: :deal: :deal: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 The story of Madhavendra Puri sure sounds like a test doesn't it? I call it "play" (yes, I read the translation). The Lord certainly *does* like to play doesn't He? Does the Lord ever doubt the devotion of Madhavendra Puri? When we talk about testing in the sense of the Biblical Book of Job, then we're really talking about Maya Devi, aren't we? Sure, Maya Devi is a potency of the Lord, but it is *her* job to "test" us, so to speak, isn't it? Of course, it is also said that, to the degree we embrace Maya, she embraces us. Not that she has us helpless in her clutches (though it certainly feels that way sometime, doesn't it?). Rather, we are clinging desperately to her and she is holding us just as tightly to her ample bosom. We create these "tests" for ourselves where Maya Devi is concerned. Where the Sweet Lord is concerned, all is play, even the "tests". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Posted June 7, 2007 Report Share Posted June 7, 2007 Murali.... that sounds logical to me..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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