the war is over

[mahak]

Haribol. As those who have read can see, I have serious problems

with GBC. So where is the common ground? It is found at the

Battlefield of Kuruksetra, in the Srimad Bhagavad Gita As It Is.

 

Arjuna was perplexed, and Krsna gave him freedom from all his

doubts. In this discussion, Krsna lists many options for Arjuna to

consider, speaking of the yoga processes, the more mechanical ways to

attain self-realization, and finishes by clearly pointing that

selfless devotion to Krsna and full surrender to that devotion is the

best of all things.

 

Srila Prabhupada is Krsna's representative, therefore gives us all

the same options. It is certainly best to attain the full nectar of

devotion as He has made available, however, other things are also not

discredited by his teachings.

 

The phrase, "Lord Chaitanya welcomes the religious impulse in

mankind" was often cited by Srila Prabhupada. He did not wish to

destroy Catholicism or any other belief system, he desired to inject

Krsna Consciousness into such systems to purify them. The sciences,

social politics, folklore, etc, all of these things exist, and Srila

Prabhupada came to shine the torchlight of knowledge upon all of them.

 

So, if a religious system is presented in the Roman Catholic format,

but uses Srila Prabhupadas writings as the Missal, declares Him as

the Lord Jesus Christ figure doing the work of Krsna by founding a

church, and eccliastically appoints and elects representatives of

Srila Prabhupada to continue and grow such a church, I cannot

disregard such a creation.

 

Srila Prabhupada is not an overbearing master of his disciples, He is

unique in that his service attitude is so advanced and developed as

uttama adhikari that he is the servant of his disciples. I fully

accept his desires in this regard as well, it is present in the

lecture tapes I possess, the early ones from 1968-1973. He created

ISKCON and the GBC in total service to the world-wide body of

disciples and followers. He presented this foundation to his

disciples, and disciples own ISKCON and the GBC.

 

As owners of the society, if the direction has become to establish an

official church based on by-laws and edicts of church leadership,

then this is also accepted by this writer. The world needs a Church

that is more serious than bingo games, altruistic fund-drives, etc.

If one thinks that Srila Prabhupada was not aware of some of his

disciples' desires to be part of such a church, this is another

discussion, but the fact is, ISKCON and the GBC exist now, as it

stands.

 

Srila Prabhupada's teachings are so much beyond official church

theology. He is the greatest mystic, and I fully accept that

communication between Guru and disciple is not affected in the least

by Srila Prabhupada's departure from this earthly plane. In fact, I

even take it one further, saying (clearly, for those who want to

oppose, use my name here) that VAPU is not impossible simply because

of samadhi. Srila Prabhupada verifies this saying he will continue

to give intimate instruction to all his followers always despite his

appearance or disappearance. A church and priests performing for the

church administering to the congregation is not an evil thing, but a

church has no right to interfere to those who are directly serving

the Spiritual Masters Instructions, via both Vapu and Vani.

 

Churches must apply force to hold their disciples. This is what that

Allegiance platform is all about, holding ISKCON together as a

congregation. Though aspects of the thesis disturb me, I appreciate

the need for a church to do whatever is necessary to survive. I very

much want the GBC and ISKCON to continue, and I support the existance

as well as the leadership councils that oversee its existance. In

this regard, I have no quarrel with Ravindra or others who adopted

the allegiance policy.

 

That said, I recognize the fact that churches have no ability to

distract, delay, or hinder the natural advancement of those who

recognize the authority of Srila Prabhupada. Just as St. Francis,

St. Therese of Avila, and other great followers of Lord Jesus Christ

like Ambrose and Jerome operated outside the jurisdiction of the

church (many times bringing clear and often violent opposition by the

church), devotees who hold Srila Prabhupada in the vyasasana of the

heart may have to operate outside the jurisdiction of ISKCON and the

GBC. Srila Prabhupada provides for both, those who want a religion

based on Krsna Consciousness have been kindly given a vehicle to make

such a thing. But Srila Prabhupada is also Jagat Guru of all who may

not be in need of a congregational go-between, Srila Prabhupada is

Jagat Guru of all those who blooped, all those who left for

idealistic reasons, all those who were forced out by not accepting

the eccliastic line of the church. Srila Prabhupada is also Jagat

Guru for ISKCON, GB Commissioners, Temple presidents and temple

residents.

 

So, the common ground is quite simple, Srila Prabhupada is Jagat Guru

of us all, He is the common bond. He is the driving force of all his

disciples who have their own schools, he is the driving force of the

rtvik phenomenon, he is the driving force of ISKCON, he is the

driving force of the exiles who appreciate the peace of living in

exile. Some may take a little and say the word Krsna during sunday

mass, some may take it all and be uttama adhikari in their own

rights, and some may go up and down between the two, but there is

solidarity there, we just have to step back and show respect for all

the Vaisnavas and end the war, now.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

 

The phrase, "Lord Chaitanya welcomes the religious impulse in

mankind" was often cited by Srila Prabhupada. He did not wish to

destroy Catholicism or any other belief system, he desired to inject

Krsna Consciousness into such systems to purify them. The sciences,

social politics, folklore, etc, all of these things exist, and Srila

Prabhupada came to shine the torchlight of knowledge upon all of them.

I have ended the war with mundane religiousity wherever it is simply by not giving it weight in my personal life. I'll still take a pot shot at the Pope, Imam, "Guru" and the GBC from time to time but long past are the days of obsessing on the subject which accomplished nothing but driving me even more insane than I usually am.

 

By Krsna's grace I have pulled back from the edge of that abyss. Speaking of which I haven't hear anything from Puranjana in years. Is he still in full battle mode?

[Guest guest]

Hare Krsna

 

All Glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga.

 

His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami accepted those of gross demoniac nature, known as pure atheistic duskritina in the Bhagavad Gita, as his disciples. Some of those made a play of surrendering to him, and he, being Jagat Guru, responded in kind, keeping some of them very closely in his association and thus displaying the wisdom of keeping one's friends close and enemies closer.

 

He refered to these living entities as members of the "Great Sinister Movement", and claimed they had already infiltrated his society of ISKCON.

 

So all sentiment aside, regarding those who by nature will never surrender to Krsna, who would lock His Divine Grace in a room for days on end in LA in 1970 until he met their demands, etc. etc. etc.,

 

The Jagat Guru wasn't even able to turn them. Yes. Eventually, the mantra is a time bomb, but time stretches long and thin in this realm, you betcha.

 

It is said in the Gita that the Lord is so merciful, that even the lowest of mankind, the mental speculating and atheistic duskritinas, who NEVER surrender, can also receive liberation.

 

 

Bg 16.21

TRANSLATION

Attaining repeated birth amongst the species of demoniac life, such persons can never approach Me. Gradually they sink down to the most abominable type of existence.

PURPORT

It is known that God is all-merciful, but here we find that God is never merciful to the demoniac. It is clearly stated that the demoniac people, life after life, are put into the wombs of similar demons, and, not achieving the mercy of the Supreme Lord, they go down and down, so that at last they achieve bodies like those of cats, dogs and hogs. It is clearly stated that such demons have practically no chance of receiving the mercy of God at any stage of later life. In the Vedas also it is stated that such persons gradually sink to become dogs and hogs. It may be then argued in this connection that God should not be advertised as all-merciful if He is not merciful to such demons. In answer to this question, in the Vedanta-sutra we find that the Supreme Lord has no hatred for anyone. The placing of the asuras, the demons, in the lowest status of life is simply another feature of His mercy. Sometimes the asuras are killed by the Supreme Lord, but this killing is also good for them, for in Vedic literature we find that anyone who is killed by the Supreme Lord becomes liberated. There are instances in history of many asuras-Ravana, Kamsa, Hiranyakasipu-to whom the Lord appeared in various incarnations just to kill. Therefore God's mercy is shown to the asuras if they are fortunate enough to be killed by Him.

 

Sooooooo.....

 

Enough fluffy limpwristed acceptance, and how about some good old fashioned mayhem?

 

Only kidding.

 

Taking a clue from the Arjuna v. Asvatthama playbook, these rogues and their duped sycophants must be neglected, and even sometimes killed symbolically by an intellegent, strong, and courageous group of devotees who can embarrass them with the truth, publicly, by petitioning the Lord in the name of Justice, and doing the needful to leave them in disgrace and without ability to further harm the innocent and naive.

 

After all, the Sankirtana movement is about extending causeless mercy, and this means where it usually would have no effect.

 

Killing 2 birds with the same stone, such empowered disciples can deliver the cheated victims from their useless position of holding the short end of the stick on this go round of the wheel of samsara, by "killing" the ability of the cheating victimizers to prey on those ignorant devotees.

 

If you know it is going on, and do and say nothing in opposition, you are complicit, and do not yet understand the personal depth of the what it means to be a Vaisnava.

 

Thats ok, there is always the plough department. Toughens one up to the realities on the ground here on Earth.

 

Jaya Prabhupada!

[Vikram Ramsundar]

The war is certainly over. All reasonable people should focus on their own spiritual development and try as much as possible to help those less advanced than themselves.

 

Haribol

[Guest guest]

How is Prabupada Krsna's representative?

[Guest guest]

 

How is Prabupada Krsna's representative?

 

Chapter 2. Contents of the Gita Summarized [The Bhagavad Gita As It Is, His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami]

 

TEXT 8

 

na hi prapasyami mamapanudyad

yac chokam ucchosanam indriyanam

avapya bhumav asapatnam rddham

rajyam suranam api cadhipatyam

 

SYNONYMS

na--do not; hi--certainly; prapasyami--I see; mama--my; apanudyat--can drive away; yat--that; sokam--lamentation; ucchosanam--drying up; indriyanam--of the senses; avapya--achieving; bhumau--on the earth; asapatnam--without rival; rddham--prosperous; rajyam--kingdom; suranam--of the demigods; api--even; ca--also; adhipatyam--supremacy.

 

TRANSLATION

I can find no means to drive away this grief which is drying up my senses. I will not be able to destroy it even if I win an unrivaled kingdom on earth with sovereignty like the demigods in heaven.

 

PURPORT

Although Arjuna was putting forward so many arguments based on knowledge of the principles of religion and moral codes, it appears that he was unable to solve his real problem without the help of the spiritual master, Lord Sri Krsna. He could understand that his so-called knowledge was useless in driving away his problems, which were drying up his whole existence; and it was impossible for him to solve such perplexities without the help of a spiritual master like Lord Krsna. Academic knowledge, scholarship, high position, etc., are all useless in solving the problems of life; help can only be given by a spiritual master like Krsna. Therefore, the conclusion is that a spiritual master who is one hundred percent Krsna conscious is the bona fide spiritual master, for he can solve the problems of life. Lord Caitanya said that one who is master in the science of Krsna consciousness, regardless of his social position, is the real spiritual master.

 

kiba vipra, kiba nyasi, sudra kene naya

yei krsna-tattva-vetta, sei 'guru' haya

(Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya 8.127)

 

"It does not matter whether a person is a vipra [learned scholar in Vedic wisdom] or is born in a lower family, or is in the renounced order of life--if he is master in the science of Krsna, he is the perfect and bona fide spiritual master." So without being a master in the science of Krsna consciousness, no one is a bona fide spiritual master. It is also said in Vedic literatures:

 

 

sat-karma-nipuno vipro mantra-tantra-visaradah

avaisnavo gurur na syad vaisnavah sva-paco guruh

 

 

"A scholarly brahmana, expert in all subjects of Vedic knowledge, is unfit to become a spiritual master without being a Vaisnava, or expert in the science of Krsna consciousness. But a person born in a family of a lower caste can become a spiritual master if he is a Vaisnava, or Krsna conscious."

The problems of material existence--birth, old age, disease and death--cannot be counteracted by accumulation of wealth and economic development. In many parts of the world there are states which are replete with all facilities of life, which are full of wealth, and economically developed, yet the problems of material existence are still present. They are seeking peace in different ways, but they can achieve real happiness only if they consult Krsna, or the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam--which constitute the science of Krsna--or the bona fide representative of Krsna, the man in Krsna consciousness.

If economic development and material comforts could drive away one's lamentations for family, social, national or international inebrieties, then Arjuna would not have said that even an unrivaled kingdom on earth or supremacy like that of the demigods in the heavenly planets would not be able to drive away his lamentations. He sought, therefore, refuge in Krsna consciousness, and that is the right path for peace and harmony. Economic development or supremacy over the world can be finished at any moment by the cataclysms of material nature. Even elevation into a higher planetary situation, as men are now seeking a place on the moon planet, can also be finished at one stroke. The Bhagavad-gita confirms this: ksine punye martya-lokam visanti. "When the results of pious activities are finished, one falls down again from the peak of happiness to the lowest status of life." Many politicians of the world have fallen down in that way. Such downfalls only constitute more causes for lamentation.

Therefore, if we want to curb lamentation for good, then we have to take shelter of Krsna, as Arjuna is seeking to do. So Arjuna asked Krsna to solve his problem definitely, and that is the way of Krsna consciousness.

[Guest guest]

The bureaucratic religiosity of Catholicism with its clericism and hawking of God's mercy has to be the furthest thing I can imagine from the Gaudiya-Vaisnavism that Prabhupada preached, .It belongs to the 'variety of religion' which Krsna tells us to abandon. Prabhpada never once enjoined his followers to build a church or a religion - The yuga -dharma is indeed catholic, in the sense of universal, but not catholic in the sense of a centralized institution of dogmatic hegemony (and all the corruption that implies).