Success or failure

[theist]

Sometimes the mistake is made by judging the devotee by the mundane standard of success or failure concerning his efforts to establish certain Krsna conscious programs.

 

By employing such reasoning it is guarunteed that one will not be seeing things as they are or the devotee for who he is.

 

The example of Prabhupada's sannyasa program or the attempt to establish the gurukula system in the west come to mind.

 

To use a baseball analogy, it is a fact the batters who strike out the most are those that hit the most home runs because they swing for the fences. The back up player who never gets to bat never strikes out but then he hits no home runs either.

 

But more than that the devotee acts to please Krsna and if Krsna is pleased by his attempts then that is the measure of success.

 

This is the spiritual vision described below.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION Bg 2.48

Perform your duty equipoised, O Arjuna, abandoning all attachment to success or failure. Such equanimity is called yoga.

 

PURPORT

Krishna tells Arjuna that he should act in yoga. And what is that yoga? Yoga means to concentrate the mind upon the Supreme by controlling the ever-disturbing senses. And who is the Supreme? The Supreme is the Lord. And because He Himself is telling Arjuna to fight, Arjuna has nothing to do with the results of the fight. Gain or victory are Krishna's concern; Arjuna is simply advised to act according to the dictation of Krishna. The following of Krishna's dictation is real yoga, and this is practiced in the process called Krishna consciousness. By Krishna consciousness only can one give up the sense of proprietorship. One has to become the servant of Krishna, or the servant of the servant of Krishna [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. That is the right way to discharge duty in Krishna consciousness, which alone can help one to act in yoga.

Arjuna is a kshatriya, and as such he is participating in the varnasrama-dharma institution. It is said in the Vishnu Purana that in the varnasrama-dharma, the whole aim is to satisfy Vishnu. No one should satisfy himself, as is the rule in the material world, but one should satisfy Krishna. So unless one satisfies Krishna, one cannot correctly observe the principles of varnasrama-dharma. Indirectly, Arjuna was advised to act as Krishna told him.

[Guest guest]

 

Sometimes the mistake is made by judging the devotee by the mundane standard of success or failure concerning his efforts to establish certain Krsna conscious programs.

 

 

What about the phrase Prabhupada often repeated: "You judge by the results"?

 

By word jugglery we can even turn an obvious failure into a "deeply hidden" success, but who buys such dishonest explanations? Only those willing to delude themselves.

 

Is a church which loses 90% of it's converts a success? To me, that is a failure. You can say: "But this gem is so valuable there are only few buyers!" Truth is, this gem is free for the asking and still people walk away from it in droves.

 

A program is a success to the extent it meets it's stated objective. You cant constantly re-define the objective adjusting expectations to your failures. See the current war in Iraq.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

But more than that the devotee acts to please Krsna and if Krsna is pleased by his attempts then that is the measure of success.

 

Very nice, theist!

 

This raises the question: how do we know if Krsna is pleased by (and accepts) our attempts to serve? Or is it not possible to know, and therefore impossible to guage our own success?

[theist]

 

By word jugglery we can even turn an obvious failure into a "deeply hidden" success, but who buys such dishonest explanations? Only those willing to delude themselves.

 

Do you find Bhagavad-gita word juggelry?!?

 

You may say my words are word juggelry but then I ask you to please show me where I contradict the verse cited. If you show that difference I will apologize for word juggelry.

 

Personally from reading several of your posts I think you have some bug up your a** towards Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

 

Do you find Bhagavad-gita word juggelry?!?

 

 

No, but I have seen plenty of people in Iskcon whose word jugglery enabled the worst kinds of abuses and criminal acts to be committed in the name of devotional service. Some of these people are still around, still pretending black is white.

[theist]

 

Very nice, theist!

 

This raises the question: how do we know if Krsna is pleased by (and accepts) our attempts to serve? Or is it not possible to know, and therefore impossible to guage our own success?

 

Yes our problem is we have no real vision. We can only do our best and pray Krsna shows us how to please Him inspite of our awkward position.

 

Of course we try for success on Krsna's behalf just as Arjuna fought to his full capacity to win the war but if the Pandavas would have lost the war are we to then assume Krsna was displeased with Arjuna and his brothers?

 

The idea that we can judge Krsna's devotee by mundane means like number of disciples, books written or temples opened is ridiculous. Some of these past homosex pedophiles pretending to be gurus had thousands of disciples. Are they now more than Gaura Kshore babaji based on numbers?

 

Some were very expert at giving lectures etc. but if their words were not infused with love for Krsna and a desire to please Him then all their fine speeches are just so much finely polished noise.

[theist]

 

No, but I have seen plenty of people in Iskcon whose word jugglery enabled the worst kinds of abuses and criminal acts to be committed in the name of devotional service. Some of these people are still around, still pretending black is white.

 

You addressed my post with the words"word juggelry" so don't try to deflect that now by bringing in problems with iskcon.

[Guest guest]

 

You addressed my post with the words"word juggelry" so don't try to deflect that now by bringing in problems with iskcon.

 

If you blur the lines between what is a success and what is a failure chances are you will also blur the line between proper and improper behavior, good and evil. That is our history and you know it.

 

You can call a failure a failure and still surrender the results to Krsna. You dont have to pretend that failure was actually a success. That is how I read this verse.

 

One more point. Arjuna was receiving instruction directly from Krsna and the lines were clear. We are not so lucky and that is why we need to be very careful in our activities, making sure they conform to the standards set by guru, sadhu, and shastra. Thus determining what is a success, and what is a failure is part of our responsibility and our self-correcting mechanism. Dont keep on ramming square pegs into round holes and be happy that you are surrendering the results to Krsna - use your brain to figure out that round pegs go with round holes.

[theist]

 

If you blur the lines between what is a success and what is a failure chances are you will also blur the line between proper and improper behavior, good and evil. That is our history and you know it.

 

You can call a failure a failure and still surrender the results to Krsna. You dont have to pretend that failure was actually a success. That is how I read this verse.

 

One more point. Arjuna was receiving instruction directly from Krsna and the lines were clear. We are not so lucky and that is why we need to be very careful in our activities, making sure they conform to the standards set by guru, sadhu, and shastra. Thus determining what is a success, and what is a failure is part of our responsibility and our self-correcting mechanism. Dont keep on ramming square pegs into round holes and be happy that you are surrendering the results to Krsna - use your brain to figure out that round pegs go with round holes.

 

Sounds like you never bothered to read my post about trying for success like Arjuna tried for victory.

 

I have nothing more to say on this one.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Thank you for that answer, theist. It is a perfectly good answer and I place it upon my head.

 

I must admit, though, that the question was a loaded/baited one. Despite honestly wanting to see what you or others would say (and not wanting to initially color the discussion), I had something in mind.

 

In these regards, I have heard it said that, if Gurudev is pleased, Krsna is pleased. Of course, in order to have this sort of feedback (and be more sure it is not just our minds tricking us), we would need to have some sort of relationship with a fully-surrendered, qualified guru.

 

Of course, even then, should I run to Gurudev each time I leave the lavatory and ask if he is pleased with the fruits of my actions? Despite his infinite mercy and patience, doing so would not likely bring him satisfaction, would it?

 

Still, by seeing the reaction of the Vaishnava to our words/deeds, we can have some sense of whether the Lord Himself is pleased, can we not?

 

In any case, your initial post was a wonderful start of what could be an enlivening discussion. Let's hope it is not tainted any further by acrimony!

 

 

Yes our problem is we have no real vision. We can only do our best and pray Krsna shows us how to please Him inspite of our awkward position.

 

Of course we try for success on Krsna's behalf just as Arjuna fought to his full capacity to win the war but if the Pandavas would have lost the war are we to then assume Krsna was displeased with Arjuna and his brothers?

 

The idea that we can judge Krsna's devotee by mundane means like number of disciples, books written or temples opened is ridiculous. Some of these past homosex pedophiles pretending to be gurus had thousands of disciples. Are they now more than Gaura Kshore babaji based on numbers?

 

Some were very expert at giving lectures etc. but if their words were not infused with love for Krsna and a desire to please Him then all their fine speeches are just so much finely polished noise.

[Guest guest]

 

Sounds like you never bothered to read my post about trying for success like Arjuna tried for victory.

 

But I did. Especially this part:

 

"But more than that the devotee acts to please Krsna and if Krsna is pleased by his attempts then that is the measure of success. This is the spiritual vision described below."

 

How do you ACTUALLY know when Krsna is pleased with your activity? Someone can do the dumbest thing resulting in all kinds of hardship for himself and others and still claim Krsna is pleased with him.

 

THIS is the part my comments were aiming at.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

What I'm trying to say below is: if something I say or do pleases you or any other Vaishnava, then I am certain that the Lord is pleased.

 

Conversely, if I say something to offend you or the other Vaishnavas, then I fear My Lord is not pleased with me.

 

 

Thank you for that answer, theist. It is a perfectly good answer and I place it upon my head.

 

I must admit, though, that the question was a loaded/baited one. Despite honestly wanting to see what you or others would say (and not wanting to initially color the discussion), I had something in mind.

 

In these regards, I have heard it said that, if Gurudev is pleased, Krsna is pleased. Of course, in order to have this sort of feedback (and be more sure it is not just our minds tricking us), we would need to have some sort of relationship with a fully-surrendered, qualified guru.

 

Of course, even then, should I run to Gurudev each time I leave the lavatory and ask if he is pleased with the fruits of my actions? Despite his infinite mercy and patience, doing so would not likely bring him satisfaction, would it?

 

Still, by seeing the reaction of the Vaishnava to our words/deeds, we can have some sense of whether the Lord Himself is pleased, can we not?

 

In any case, your initial post was a wonderful start of what could be an enlivening discussion. Let's hope it is not tainted any further by acrimony!

[Guest guest]

 

What I'm trying to say below is: if something I say or do pleases you or any other Vaishnava, then I am certain that the Lord is pleased.

 

Conversely, if I say something to offend you or the other Vaishnavas, then I fear My Lord is not pleased with me.

 

That is definitely a much more tangible and practical measure of failure and success. Judging by results once again wins in my book

[theist]

 

But I did. Especially this part:

 

"But more than that the devotee acts to please Krsna and if Krsna is pleased by his attempts then that is the measure of success. This is the spiritual vision described below."

 

How do you ACTUALLY know when Krsna is pleased with your activity? Someone can do the dumbest thing resulting in all kinds of hardship for himself and others and still claim Krsna is pleased with him.

 

THIS is the part my comments were aiming at.

 

Crazy people can do anything and say God instructed them. Look at the stupid Muslim jihadis.

 

How to know when you are pleasing Krsna? True you may be feeling lower than the straw in the street and think you are not pleasing to Krsna so you need to try harder. If Krsna wants to commuiucate His pleasure with you He will.

[theist]

It is understood that following the directions of Krsna's devotee will please Him. And Krsna's devotee is only pleased when we please Krsna for the devotee has no independent desires apart from Krsna's pleasure.

 

Anyway we were talking of a slightly different angle on this as I indicated in my first post. Threads morph very quickly around here.

[Guest guest]

 

Crazy people can do anything and say God instructed them. Look at the stupid Muslim jihadis.

 

 

Yes, this is a very good example of turning religion into demonic posession. These people also claim their god is pleased with them.

 

That is why Arjuna asks (BG 2.54):

 

"What are the symptoms of one whose consciousness is thus merged in Transcendence? How does he speak, and what is his language? How does he sit, and how does he walk?"

 

And then Krsna explains in great detail (many verses) all OBSERVABLE symptoms of such a person. This is judging success or failure on the path of self realisation by examining the manifested results. It is not guesswork - this is stuff you see and experience directly.

 

This is YOGA, not some faith based religion. In yoga you judge things by observing MANIFESTED symptoms. Too many devotees turn bhakti yoga into yet another church like religion.

[Guest guest]

 

Sometimes the mistake is made by judging the devotee by the mundane standard of success or failure concerning his efforts to establish certain Krsna conscious programs.

 

By employing such reasoning it is guarunteed that one will not be seeing things as they are or the devotee for who he is.

 

The example of Prabhupada's sannyasa program or the attempt to establish the gurukula system in the west come to mind.

 

To use a baseball analogy, it is a fact the batters who strike out the most are those that hit the most home runs because they swing for the fences. The back up player who never gets to bat never strikes out but then he hits no home runs either.

 

But more than that the devotee acts to please Krsna and if Krsna is pleased by his attempts then that is the measure of success.

 

This is the spiritual vision described below.

 

Dear Theist prabhu

 

Thank you very much for this, especially the Bhagavad-gita purport. We need to meditate on this regularly.

[theist]

 

Yes, this is a very good example of turning religion into demonic posession. These people also claim their god is pleased with them.

 

That is why Arjuna asks (BG 2.54):

 

"What are the symptoms of one whose consciousness is thus merged in Transcendence? How does he speak, and what is his language? How does he sit, and how does he walk?"

 

And then Krsna explains in great detail (many verses) all OBSERVABLE symptoms of such a person. This is judging success or failure on the path of self realisation by examining the manifested results. It is not guesswork - this is stuff you see and experience directly.

 

This is YOGA, not some faith based religion. In yoga you judge things by observing MANIFESTED symptoms. Too many devotees turn bhakti yoga into yet another church like religion.

 

Yes it's observable but within oneself and not others unless Krsna gives us the vision.

 

Trying to analyse and calculate all the subtle pyschic workings of another is precisely how the fake devotee gets his power from the gullible. They give it to him when he externally mimics some of the signs in these verses. He learns how to appear to be undisturbed by desires when in reality it is only pretense designed to ellict worship and adoration from his dupes.

 

Best to wait for Krsna to reveal His saints and just concentrate on our own internal development in the meantime IMO.

 

Bg. 2.54 - Arjuna said: O Krishna, what are the symptoms of one whose consciousness is thus merged in transcendence? How does he speak, and what is his language? How does he sit, and how does he walk?

Bg. 2.55 - The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O Partha, when a man gives up all varieties of desire for sense gratification, which arise from mental concoction, and when his mind, thus purified, finds satisfaction in the self alone, then he is said to be in pure transcendental consciousness.

Bg. 2.56 - One who is not disturbed in mind even amidst the threefold miseries or elated when there is happiness, and who is free from attachment, fear and anger, is called a sage of steady mind.

Bg. 2.57 - In the material world, one who is unaffected by whatever good or evil he may obtain, neither praising it nor despising it, is firmly fixed in perfect knowledge.

Bg. 2.58 - One who is able to withdraw his senses from sense objects, as the tortoise draws its limbs within the shell, is firmly fixed in perfect consciousness.

Bg. 2.59 - The embodied soul may be restricted from sense enjoyment, though the taste for sense objects remains. But, ceasing such engagements by experiencing a higher taste, he is fixed in consciousness.

Bg. 2.60 - The senses are so strong and impetuous, O Arjuna, that they forcibly carry away the mind even of a man of discrimination who is endeavoring to control them.

Bg. 2.61 - One who restrains his senses, keeping them under full control, and fixes his consciousness upon Me, is known as a man of steady intelligence.

Bg. 2.62 - While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.

Bg. 2.63 - From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.

Bg. 2.64 - But a person free from all attachment and aversion and able to control his senses through regulative principles of freedom can obtain the complete mercy of the Lord.

Bg. 2.65 - For one thus satisfied [in Krishna consciousness], the threefold miseries of material existence exist no longer; in such satisfied consciousness, one's intelligence is soon well established.

Bg. 2.66 - One who is not connected with the Supreme [in Krishna consciousness] can have neither transcendental intelligence nor a steady mind, without which there is no possibility of peace. And how can there be any happiness without peace?

Bg. 2.67 - As a strong wind sweeps away a boat on the water, even one of the roaming senses on which the mind focuses can carry away a man's intelligence.

Bg. 2.68 - Therefore, O mighty-armed, one whose senses are restrained from their objects is certainly of steady intelligence.

Bg. 2.69 - What is night for all beings is the time of awakening for the self-controlled; and the time of awakening for all beings is night for the introspective sage.

Bg. 2.70 - A person who is not disturbed by the incessant flow of desires-that enter like rivers into the ocean, which is ever being filled but is always still-can alone achieve peace, and not the man who strives to satisfy such desires.

Bg. 2.71 - A person who has given up all desires for sense gratification, who lives free from desires, who has given up all sense of proprietorship and is devoid of false ego-he alone can attain real peace.

Bg. 2.72 - That is the way of the spiritual and godly life, after attaining which a man is not bewildered. If one is thus situated even at the hour of death, one can enter into the kingdom of God.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Yes it's observable but within oneself and not others unless Krsna gives us the vision.

We can't even see within ourselves without Krsna giving us vision, let alone being able to see through the samskaras of others.

 

From my own experience, I know what a tremendous capacity for self-deception I possess. How many times I have I justified nonsense behavior on my part in the name of "distribution" (I prefer to do my preaching in bed )?

 

Without Gurudev (chaitya or otherwise) opening our darkened eyes with the torchlight of transcendental knowledge, what can we see?

 

Sure, there are many symptoms of devotion which are clearly lain out. However, symptoms can be very easily faked by a skilled actor (and we've been studying our current roles for how many lifetimes?).

 

As to saying the KC is not based on faith (which was not you, theist), I can only respond with a loud guffaw. Whatever you say about the scientific nature of Bhakti Yoga, without faith, it is merely a system of gymnastics like any other. Do I really need to pull dozens of quotes out to illustrate?

[theist]

Yes we are blind to reality. That is really hard to accept because it means we have no controll and are at the complete mercy of another, Krsna. The wayward soul sees Krsna as it's great nemesis and to admit He is in control over us is very painful in our beginning stages. This is why it is important to accept God, Isvara on our way to Krsna lila and not try to jump over these realizations as below us in some way. Really accepting God contains the side benefit of ending of our being held by ahankara IOW liberation from matter.

 

 

 

From my own experience, I know what a tremendous capacity for self-deception I possess. How many times I have I justified nonsense behavior on my part in the name of "distribution" (I prefer to do my preaching in bed )?

 

LOL Ok there are at least a dozen good jokes here but since this is a family channel I can't tell them.

 

I assume you refer to dreaming.

[Guest guest]

>>This raises the question: how do we know if Krsna is pleased by (and accepts) our attempts to serve? Or is it not possible to know, and therefore impossible to guage our own success?>>

 

I'm sorry, Prabhus, I don't have the reference on hand (will try to find it), but I'll always remember that one time Prabhupada was asked the same question. His reply was that when the devotees or Vaisnavas are pleased, then Krishna is pleased.