In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream,

[theist]

Now the next question automatically made will be why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be in his pure consciousness as a part and parcel of the Lord and thus be engaged in the loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made; but because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become as independent as the Lord is. All the nondevotee living entities are desirous of becoming equally as powerful as the Lord, although they are not fit to become so. The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him. Like a person who thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualification, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forget his factual life and thus dream of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother, and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the reflection of the moon. Similarly, the crying child of the Lord is given over to the reflection, the material world, to lord it over as karmi and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this. But the fact is that as soon as he desired it, he was put under the control of atma-maya by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is "mine" and this is "I." The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as "I" or falsely thinks that he is the Lord and that everything in connection with that material body is "mine." Thus only in dream does the misconception of "I" and "mine" persist life after life. This continues life after life, as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord.

 

In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream, and in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. SB 2.9.1 purport

[Guruvani]

could this "dreaming" of the living entity be the false ego?

 

the dreaming is that we imagine that we are the enjoyers and then we foster this false ago called ahankara.

 

otherwise, it is established that the material world is real but temporary.

 

this dreaming of the living entity does not establish that we are dreaming from Goloka.

 

maybe we are dreaming from the tatastha?

 

the dream is the false ego.

 

it doesn't mean that we are sleeping in Goloka and thinking we are in the material world.

[Beggar]

...There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this. But the fact is that as soon as he desired it, he was put under the control of atma-maya by the direction of the Lord... SB 2.9.1 purport

Srila Prabhupada did not say in this purport that the conditioned souls originated in Goloka, nor did he say that the conditioned souls originated in the brahmajyoti. We have to remember that the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of the body of the Lord. Maybe that's the problem. I know from discussions with many Prabhupada sisyas in the '70s and beyond that they practically considered the brahmajyoti to be a dity word. In some ways Gaudiya Siddhanta can be quite complex as it tries to harmonize and accomodate opposites or paradoxes. The Pradymna Swami Sleepervadis do not think that there even exits a paradox in the origin of the jiva soul. That is because they have no understanding of acintya bheda [a]bheda tattva and try to force their Christian conception upon Gaudiya Vaisnavism. The followers of acintya bheda [a]bheda tattva will see that when Srila Prabhupada says, "There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this" [enjoying separately from Krsna], he is referring to a paradox that is beyond the conception of the material mind and intelligence. When Srila Sridhar Maharaja explains that from the viewpoint of siddhanta that the soul's origins are the brahmajyoti he automatically assumes the capacity of the audience to accommodate the inherent paradox. That paradox is that the brahmajyoti is not a static place it but rather a position that has been described a tathasta or marginal. Both the brahmajyoti and the jiva souls that comprise it are compared to the demarcation between the seashore and the sea. There is no static line and there's no way to tell exactly where that line is, even conceptually for our puppy brains. Consequently it appears that Prabhupada is alluding to that kind of paradox. It is apasiddhantic to declare that the baddha jivas originate in Goloka and that's why you never see such a phrase or sentence in Prabhupada's books.

[theist]

As I have said repeatedly ,and just this morning again, I don't take a position on if the soul is dreaming from Goloka or the Brahman. He may be dreaming from either position as far as I know. That is not my debate. I just want to remind those that are mocking sarvah gatha on the issue of dreaming the consciousness into maya that he is correct on that point as that point is not open to debate.

 

And of course the dream commences on contact with ahankara. What else would you call it?

 

You both sound as if you have sobered up and are willing to serious. You accused those that accept the fact that the jiva is dreaming in a slumber of forgetfullness of his real identity of being outside your sampradaya, deviants and cousins to mayavadis. That is rather dangerous since Srila Prabhupada made the same statement hundreds of times , check your folio.

 

I am sure this debate will come up again, as useless as it is, and hopefully this fact of dreaming will not again be contentious.

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

The occurrence of time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha

 

 

Therefore, as theist has said, no one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka. Please understand that once and for all. Because of the absence of the time factor there is no loss of consciousness in Goloka once one’s nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated and one has returned to the awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is perpetually serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes herself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body and the so-called fall was only an illusion...it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it.

The jiva-tattva or nitya-baddha consciousness (the soul) is not moving from one body to the next. Krishna says the soul is immovable in the Gita. The only movement there is is one of nitya-baddha jiva-s’akti consciousness and not movement as understood and experienced under the influence of material time and space. So from ones marginal svarupa body in Goloka- Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, the marginal nitya-baddha may manifest due to ones choice to ‘dream’ in a separated state from Krishna however, in reality one is never separated from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body and ones rasa with Krishna is not interrupted, they only dream for a moment they are separated. That condition of sub-conscious restricted awareness is called the nitya-baddha conscious condition that enters the mahat-tattva to become covered by the illusion of moving between birth & death, heaven and hell, past & future where that ‘moment’ for the nitya-siddha can be trillions upon trillions of years to the nitya-baddha condition of consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as because of the attachment to pursue our no-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the centre instead of Krishna.

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left.

 

 

 

 

 

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All atma-vigraha ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do ‘jiva-souls’ appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasis believe. Every living marginal entity has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that they have always been for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva which is seeing everything from the viewpoint of the secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and not the nitya-siddha perpetual body. In other words, modern day 21<SUP>st</SUP> century Vaishnavism is seeing everything from the viewpoint of the nitya-baddha consciousness which is only ‘consciousness’ and has no form until given ethereal and biological bodies or vessels by Maha-Vishnu. The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the mahat-tattva and the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee of whom some are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless conscious projection.

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada NOD

Quote:

It is also confirmed in Bhagavad-gītā in many places that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, takes a special interest in His devotees and declares emphatically that nothing can cause His devotees to fall down. He is always protecting them.

 

Thats correct if one always remember Krishna others wise one CAN again enter the material world - Srila Prabhupada said that also.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Thats correct if one always remember Krishna others wise one CAN again enter the material world - Srila Prabhupada said that also.

 

then produce the reference in context and prove it, otherwise why bother to debate?

your opinion isn't worth diddly.

[krsna]

 

 

 

 

The occurrence of time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha

 

Therefore, as theist has said, no one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka. Please understand that once and for all. Because of the absence of the time factor there is no loss of consciousness in Goloka once one’s nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated and one has returned to the awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is perpetually serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes herself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body and the so-called fall was only an illusion...it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it.

The jiva-tattva or nitya-baddha consciousness (the soul) is not moving from one body to the next. Krishna says the soul is immovable in the Gita. The only movement there is is one of nitya-baddha jiva-s’akti consciousness and not movement as understood and experienced under the influence of material time and space. So from ones marginal svarupa body in Goloka- Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, the marginal nitya-baddha may manifest due to ones choice to ‘dream’ in a separated state from Krishna however, in reality one is never separated from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body and ones rasa with Krishna is not interrupted, they only dream for a moment they are separated. That condition of sub-conscious restricted awareness is called the nitya-baddha conscious condition that enters the mahat-tattva to become covered by the illusion of moving between birth & death, heaven and hell, past & future where that ‘moment’ for the nitya-siddha can be trillions upon trillions of years to the nitya-baddha condition of consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa-atma-sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as because of the attachment to pursue our no-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the centre instead of Krishna.

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left.

 

 

 

 

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All atma-vigraha ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do ‘jiva-souls’ appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasis believe. Every living marginal entity has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that they have always been for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva which is seeing everything from the viewpoint of the secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and not the nitya-siddha perpetual body. In other words, modern day 21^st century Vaishnavism is seeing everything from the viewpoint of the nitya-baddha consciousness which is only ‘consciousness’ and has no form until given ethereal and biological bodies or vessels by Maha-Vishnu. The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the mahat-tattva and the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee of whom some are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless conscious projection.

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

 

Please explain what this means in sastric context.... :deal: :deal:

[Guruvani]

 

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left. :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

 

Please explain what this means in sastric context.... :deal: :deal:

 

He can't prove it.

 

That theory is based on the premise that a devotee on Goloka is in illusion.

We all know well from shastra that no form of maya or illusion can enter the spiritual sky and that maya or illusion can only affect a living entity in contact with material energy.

 

there is no maya in the spiritual world.

 

the fall from Goloka theory is based on the premise that maya is also there in the spiritual world.

she is not.

[Guest guest]

 

As I have said repeatedly ,and just this morning again, I don't take a position on if the soul is dreaming from Goloka or the Brahman. He may be dreaming from either position as far as I know. That is not my debate. I just want to remind those that are mocking sarvah gatha on the issue of dreaming the consciousness into maya that he is correct on that point as that point is not open to debate.

 

And of course the dream commences on contact with ahankara. What else would you call it?

 

If I understand you correctly, you claim that:

 

1. The material world is real and separate from the spiritual world

2. The living entity (soul) NEVER leaves the spiritual world (whatever part of it may inhabit)

3. Some sort of "projeced dream consciousness" enters the material world and has it's pastimes.

4. Illusion, or dreaming about material life actually takes place in the spiritual world

 

Lets nail down some basic points so that you dont just float some words that can mean anything.

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

 

 

We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that

 

 

In a Nectar of Devotion lecture given on October 23, 1972, in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>’s creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. <font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Vrndavana</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region></st1:place>, Srila Prabhupada explains: <FONT color=#333333>

 

“We should be always ready to offer respect to all, not only devotees, but everyone. Everyone! Why? Because every living entity is originally a devotee of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. But circumstantially, being covered by the coat of Maya, he’s playing like demon. But his original nature is a devotee of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsnera dasa. Everyone is eternally servant of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. But being influenced by Maya, when he gets this body, given by Maya...Prakrtih kriyamananih gunaih karmani sarvasah, when he conducted by the three gunas of maya, he thinks himself otherwise.”

 

In a lecture on the Bhagavad-gita given in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">London</st1:place></st1:City> on August 6, 1973, Srila Prabhupada further explains:

 

“We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago”

 

Just as Krishna is a perpetual bodily person, so are all His marginal emanations however, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is always master and his marginal nitya-siddha devotees are always His servant.

 

Unfortunately there are some Vaishnava schools of thought who teach that the soul emanates from the brahmajyoti, which they foolishly claim, is living and growing from within itself. They claim that within the brahmajyoti is the source and impersonal origins of all marginal living entities that come to exist due to their equilibrium being somehow disturbed with the purpose of causing original activity to begin (a very vague impersonal statement), claiming that from non-differentiation in the Brahmajyoti, demarcation or separation from the Brahmajyoti begins and from there they have to work their way to Goloka that has never previously been seen by them. They finally believe that once reaching Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, it is impossible to again fall down into the mahat-tattva unless they enter the mahat-tattva for Krishna Lila.

 

 

 

The fact is what they actually believe in and preach to others is nonsense Impersonalism because they do not understand they have a permanent original body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha from where their present nitya-baddha deluded dreaming consciousness originates.

 

 

 

Many advanced Vaishnava’s in various sects’ including some Gaudiya Vaishnavas and even some ISKCON devotees wrongly claim that from a plain or bare sheet of uniform consciousness their individual consciousness grows and comes into existence. Such Impersonalism goes against the teachings of Srila Prabhupada and denies the true facts of ones origins which are from ones marginal Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is always in the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky and can never fall down as previously explained.

 

 

 

 

One only thinks they are fallen or dreams they are fallen, but actually their svarupa body never falls down. Rather it is ones independent non-Krishna conscious thinking and ones self absorbed ‘dreaming’ thoughts of grandeur that transfer ones awareness of their surroundings to the restricted mahat-tattva as Srila Prabhupada has clearly explained.

 

 

 

 

This restricted conscious awareness or the dreaming condition of the marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa living entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness. Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s/Gods creation. The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will.

The ‘Impersonalist Brahmajyoti-origin believers’ also incorrectly believe the nitya-baddha jiva/souls have never previously seen Krishna however, their Impersonal understanding obstructs them from understanding that long, long, long before entering the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahma-sayujya or tatastha individual dormant consciousness, they had first chose to extend from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, their nitya-baddha sub-conscious desires and non-Krishna conscious dreams that first enter the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu, going on for millions upon millions of births until eventually reaching that Impersonal Brahmajyoti aspect of ones nitya-baddha consciousness that is called the jiva-tatastha.

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti effulgence is simply creations of the marginal living entities lower-self or nitya-baddha non-devotional consciousnesses that originates from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti and ultimately originate as the fully developed svarupa living entity that IS the magnificent effulgence emanating/surrounding <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. (How this happens will be clearly explained over the next few chapters). So the correct meaning of the word marginal means one can choose to either be on the side of exploitation (nitya-baddha sub-conscious dreaming position that can only exist in the mahat-tattva) or always remain as ones nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka on the side of perpetual dedication and devotion to Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”.

Srila Prabhupada -“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state, we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but a perishable reality that exists in a temporary state in one corner of the Spiritual Sky, Brahmajyoti or creation”.

Srila Prabhupada -“We forget our actual positionand thus are free to act out our desire and dreams in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non-Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world but actually we are not fallen, we are simply in a dreaming consciousness that originates from our nitya-siddha body, those dreams are called the nitya-baddha or materially conditioned consciousness”

Srila Prabhupada -

clearly explains that in Vaikuntha beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, we are simply dreaming from our nitya-siddha body, those dreams are called the nitya-baddha consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - - “Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -– “Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -– “By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi -- perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship”.

 

 

</B>

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer.

--------------------------------

 

Yes, we indeed actually ENTER into the REAL but perishable material world.

 

Since nowhere in Vedic literature it is said that the individual living entity (jiva-atma) splits itself into parts, if we enter into the material world, it means we leave the spiritual world (whichever part of it we called home), and that is usually called a fall.

[Guest guest]

In a lecture on the Bhagavad-gita given in London on August 6, 1973, Srila Prabhupada further explains:

 

“We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago”

----------

 

Prabhupada clearly says that we have come DOWN from the spiritual world, not that we are still there and just dreaming about being down here.

 

Yes, we are engaged in a dream-like existence down here in the material world, but there is no doubt that we are REALLY HERE IN THE MATERIAL WORLD.

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

Many of the Vaishnava sects other than ISKCON have all become polluted with Impersonalism that deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation. Such fools in those sects foolishly and hysterically claim the their nitya-baddha consciousness originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that ffice:smarttags" />All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha fallen consciousness, which is the lower 'bodiless' self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha-svarupa body as already explained.

 

Srila Prabhupada - is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna.

 

 

 

.

Krishna</st1:place> Conscious bodily form due to our nitya-jiva-baddha non-Krishna conscious dreams.

Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

 

<font color=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position,we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada–“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. (MEANING OUR NITYA-SIDDHA-SVARUPA BODY)

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide”.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada “FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT”.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -"But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness".

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like in a dreamwe are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only".

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming conditionis called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second".

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -"He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he can go only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes BACK to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

 

 

Bhativinode Thakur -“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

 

 

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha

 

 

devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world.

 

 

But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming statedue to our non-Krishna conscious choices”.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -"In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual positionand thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer".

 

 

These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body),

 

 

 

We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka.

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva”.

 

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body. are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This seconday (conditioned) extension of the nitya-siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada- “He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation”.

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of all Shastra He's life is the living Bhagavatam]

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Ah... the copy and paste artist strikes again... when will you graduate to the level od actual intelligent debate? Anyway...

 

You claim that:

 

"Many of the Gaudiya sects other than ISKCON have all become polluted with Impersonalism that deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation. Such fools in those sects foolishly and hysterically claim the their nitya-baddha consciousness originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that ffice:smarttags" />All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha fallen consciousness, which is the lower 'bodiless' self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha-svarupa body as already explained."

 

Are you calling Srila Bhaktisiddhanta an impersonalist? He very clearly says that jiva's original position is in tatastha shakti.

[Vigraha]

 

then produce the reference in context and prove it, otherwise why bother to debate?

your opinion isn't worth diddly.

 

 

 

 

 

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Srila Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, ‘Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man,’ I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become.” Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 (San Francisco, February 18, 1967) <O:P

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go . . . Otherwise what is the meaning of free will?” Morning Walk, Cheviot Hills Golf Course May 13, 1973 (Los Angeles)<O:P></O:P>

Translator: The question is: did we fall in this material world to find some highest pleasure? His question is: did we fall in the material world to experience something which is higher?

Srila Prabhupada: I do not follow.

Yogesvara: I think his question is the husband will leave the wife because he is dissatisfied. But if our love for Krsna originally is perfect why should we have left?

 

Srila Prabhupada: YOU HAVE LEFT... Just like somebody is daily eating puris and halava, and he wants to eat also puffed rice. So that tendency is there. That is also a side of enjoyment. ‘I am eating daily this, let me eat this.’ What is the difficulty? That tendency is there. That is also enjoyment. After all, we are hankering after enjoyment, anandamayo 'bhyasat. So, different taste we desire, that, "Let me taste this, let me taste that, let me taste that." So the real basic principle is enjoyment, sense enjoyment. That's all." Bhagavada-gita Lecture August 5, 1976 (Paris) <O:P></O:P>

[theist]

 

If I understand you correctly, you claim that:

 

1. The material world is real and separate from the spiritual world

2. The living entity (soul) NEVER leaves the spiritual world (whatever part of it may inhabit)

3. Some sort of "projeced dream consciousness" enters the material world and has it's pastimes.

4. Illusion, or dreaming about material life actually takes place in the spiritual world

 

Lets nail down some basic points so that you dont just float some words that can mean anything.

 

Actually I think I have been very clear.

 

1. The material world is real and separate from the spiritual world

The material world is a real but temporary energy of the Lord. Exactly like the dream I had last night was a real dream or a mirage is a real mirage. It's substantial reality is based on the fact that the basis of it's constitution proceeds from the Lord Himself as Mahavisnu in His yoga nidra. As such should I awke from my dream of berkeley ca. berkeley ca. would still remain as a dream for others because it is held in place by their collective consciousness. I am not speaking of a mayavadi concept of maya.

 

It is His seperated energy and although in one sense nothing is separate from Krsna He yet He remains aloof as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

2. The living entity (soul) NEVER leaves the spiritual world (whatever part of it may inhabit)

 

Exactly. The soul IS what the spiritual world is made of. It is not a land of dead geography. For a soul to leave would mean a loss or change (no matter how small) to the spiritual world.

 

The soul leaves by forgetting it's relationship with Krsna and that void is filled with Maya and her phatasmagoria of forms, a kaliedoscopic light show called material consciousness.

 

Some say there never was a relationship with Krsna. But the fact remains that that soul never leaves Brahman. Afterall the soul IS Brahman. How does the soul leave itself? Only by projecting it's consciousness into matter fueled by a desire to be the enjoyer, IOW's the fall.

 

The fall is not something that takes place in terms of moving from one geography to another like flying an airplane from America to Europe. It takes place by projected consciousness and since it does not include the reality of Krsna consciousness it is a dream or illusion.

 

3. Some sort of "projeced dream consciousness" enters the material world and has it's pastimes.

 

Projected consciousness enters the material dreamworld. Consciousness is consciousness. It is not dreaming until it contacts AND IDENTIFIES WITH matter. Which it does the instant we decide to be the enjoyer. Not a second later but the very instant.

 

This is not a mysterious process. We do it every night and every day as daydreaming. We are awke in a room or asleep in a room and then dream we are on a beach somewhere.

 

Try to see that you the atma are dreaming right now in this so-called wakefull state. When this is realized you become a lucid dreamer in the real sense of the term and that is the beginning of self realization.

 

4. Illusion, or dreaming about material life actually takes place in the spiritual world

 

Yes and no. Yes because you are part of the spiritual world and the dreaming takes place within you and no because the instant you want to be the enjoyer you enter the dream world which has no factual reality in the spiritual world. We are considtioned to think of the material world in terms of a place rather than a state of consciousness. It is in fact both.

 

It is not that the other residents of the spiritual world look at your svarupa and say "oops this soul is now dreaming." There is no material time conception there. The whole fall is an illusion once you are Krsna conscious but it is real as long as we are not Krsna conscious.

 

Rather you fell from into this dreamworld of matter from Goloka or the Brahman I don't attempt to address. Both are possible in my estimation but irregardless the nature of the dreaming is the same.

 

I don't expect anyone to accept this on what I say. I only ask that you investigate what Srila Prabhupada has said on the soul and dreaming. There are literally hundreds of quotes.

[Guruvani]

it's quite obvious that the only references they can find for their fall-from-goloka theory is from talks and discussions that Srila Prabhupada has with non-devotees and very new devotees.

 

You can't find any of that pre-school philosophy in the books.

 

In the books you actually get some higher information than is preached to non-devotees and very new neophytes that have obviously not read the books.

[Guest guest]

 

3. Some sort of "projeced dream consciousness" enters the material world and has it's pastimes.

 

Projected consciousness enters the material dreamworld. Consciousness is consciousness. It is not dreaming until it contacts AND IDENTIFIES WITH matter. Which it does the instant we decide to be the enjoyer. Not a second later but the very instant.

 

This is not a mysterious process. We do it every night and every day as daydreaming. We are awke in a room or asleep in a room and then dream we are on a beach somewhere.

 

How can the "projected consciousness" (btw. you just said "Consciousness is consciousness" meaning that "projected" consciousness is still consciousness and therefore US, the living entity) enter a real world and at the same time be in the spiritual world? There is no separation of the two. When we dream at night we are not projecting anything. We are simply focusing inward, on our thoughts and memories. There is no reality whatsoever to that dreamscape. Material world on the other hand is REAL and we - the soul - are actually in it.

 

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JIVA's "PROJECTED CONSCIOUSNESS" EVER DESCRIBED IN THE SHASTRA. There is no sanskrit term for it either. You folks just made it up to resolve contradictory statements Prabhupada made.

 

 

4. Illusion, or dreaming about material life actually takes place in the spiritual world

 

Yes and no. Yes because you are part of the spiritual world and the dreaming takes place within you and no because the instant you want to be the enjoyer you enter the dream world which has no factual reality in the spiritual world. We are considtioned to think of the material world in terms of a place rather than a state of consciousness. It is in fact both.

 

It is not that the other residents of the spiritual world look at your svarupa and say "oops this soul is now dreaming." There is no material time conception there. The whole fall is an illusion once you are Krsna conscious but it is real as long as we are not Krsna conscious.

 

 

LOL! that is pure BS word jugglery. THERE IS NO ONE DREAMING MATERIAL DREAMS IN GOLOKA! Beat this into your head: there is no one in

Maya in Goloka. And the "no material time" excuse is just a real gem

 

 

I don't expect anyone to accept this on what I say. I only ask that you investigate what Srila Prabhupada has said on the soul and dreaming. There are literally hundreds of quotes.

 

I understand Prabhupada quotes quite well, but have different conclusions, that's all. In many places Prabhupada makes completely contradictory statements and thus the confusion among his disciples and lame attempts to reconcile them by inventing bogus theories.

 

I dont believe Prabhupada revealed some super secret truth no other Vaishnava acharya revealed before - to me that is a complete nonsense. But you are free to believe whatever you like.

[Guest guest]

I think the fact is they are references and I was there during some of those discussions, why can't you just except what Srila Prabhupada has said in stead of making silly excuses that Srila Prabhupada made all that up to appease his devotee. The taped words and the written words are equally important.

[Guruvani]

 

I think the fact is they are references and I was there during some of those discussions, why can't you just except what Srila Prabhupada has said in stead of making silly excuses that Srila Prabhupada made all that up to appease his devotee. The taped words and the written words are equally important.

 

 

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yoga-maya, not maha-maya. Therefore it is to understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35,

[Beggar]

 

The taped words and the written words are equally important.

I beg to differ. It is a universal principle that the written word takes precedence. If you want then you can verify this quote from Srila Prabhupada, "whatever I have to say, I have already said in my books". Srila Prabhupada sent his leaders to take "philisophical advice" from Srila Sridhar Maharaja and he has also confirmed that what is in the books shall take precedence over the spoken word if there appears to be a contradiction.

[Guruvani]

One who is not materially infected and who does not forget Krsna as his master is called nitya-mukta. In other words, one who is eternally liberated from material contamination is called nitya-mukta. From time immemorial the nitya-mukta living entity has always been a devotee of Krsna, and his only attempt has been to serve Krsna. Thus he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.)

[Guruvani]

The third-class person in Krsna consciousness may fall down, but when one is in the second class he does not fall down, and for the first-class person in Krsna consciousness there is no chance of falling down. (Bg. 9.3, purport)

[Guruvani]

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)