In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream,

[Guruvani]

Among the unlimited potencies of Sri Krsna, there is one known as tatastha-sakti (border-potency). From that sakti comes out the jiva-souls remaining at the junction of the two worlds, viz., the transcendental and the mundane ones, may contact them both. In its composition it is only the atomic cit (pure sentience) . . . On account of the purity in its composition, it has got the capacity for being the eternal denizen with divine bliss in the transcendental power. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 4, page 46)

[Guruvani]

A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world-they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya'with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7, page 95-96)

[Guruvani]

The semblance or dim reflection of the internal Cit-potency is the jiva-sakti (potency) or Tatastha-sakti stationed in between cit-jagat and a-cit-jagat or mayic-jagat whereas the shadow or perverted reflection of that internal cit potency is the maya-sakti or external a-cit potency. All the jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti of God and accordingly the mundane worlds emanate from the maya-sakti of God. (Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, chap. 1, Introd., By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

[Guruvani]

The jiva-souls are emanated from the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna and they are spiritual but atomic. In the very self of the jiva-soul or in his constitution practically there remains no maya. As jiva-souls are atomic in size and being emanated from the tatastha-sakti of Sri Krsna (viz. from the intermediary-potency which exists in between cit-jagat and mayic-jagat) jiva-soul is liable to be subjected to maya when becomes averse to his constitutional right of serving the Lord. Jiva-soul in bondage misconstrues himself as the doer and enjoyer, therefore is affinated to the adopted bodies which are provided by prakrti. A jiva by dint of spiritual virtue may possess steadfast devotion to Sri Krsna and getting rid of worldly affinity goes back to the abode of bliss. (Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, ch. 7, text 34, purport by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

[Guruvani]

The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of effulgence of Maha-Visnu are manifest as the individual souls (jivas). (Brahma-Samhita 10, purp.)

[Guruvani]

The cit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are the innumerable minute jivas. The Jivas emanate from the tatastha sakti (border potency) of Sri Krsna; so is the nature to tatastha (border potency) of Sri Krsna. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15, page 213)

[Guruvani]

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless. (Jaiva Dharma, page 234)

[Guruvani]

 

There are two types of jivas liberated from maya--nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, and baddha-mukta, those who were bound but became liberated. The jivas who were never bound by maya are called nitya-mukta. The nitya-muktas are also of two types, aisvarya gata nitya mukta and madhurya gata nitya mukta. The former are the associates of Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha and are the atomic particles from mula Sankarsana. The latter are the associates of Lord Krsna in Goloka. They are the atomic particles of Sri Baladeva situated in Goloka Vrndavana. (Jaiva-Dharma, Chapter 17, p. 251)

 

[Guruvani]

 

The following excerpt [translated by leading devotee scholars] is taken directly from the Jaiva Dharma without any interpretation or change, exactly as originally published in English:

Vrajanatha: Now my question is whether the cit-potency has framed the jiva with the tatastha (border) natural?

Babaji: No, the cit-potency is Krsna's plenary potency; whatever she produces is all eternally accomplished; the jiva is not so eternally accomplished; when he becomes accomplished by practices (sadhana-siddha), he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities. The four kinds of confidantes of Sri Radha (to be described hereafter) are eternally accomplished; their bodies are about the same, with slight variations, with that of Sri Radhika who is essentially the cit-sakti. The jivas have grown out of the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna. Cit-sakti is Sri Krsna's full (plenary) sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is the incomplete sakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic cit. Krsna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the kind of the sakti He applies. When established in His essential cit-sakti He reveals His essential Nature as Sri Krsna Himself on the one hand and on the other as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha.

When He desired to have His adherent attendance 'nitya-parsada' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka-Vrndavana, Vaikuntha, etc. He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parsada as nitya-mukta jivas at those divine worlds. He reveals the three Forms of Visnu, viz. Karanodakasayi, Ksirodadasayi and Garbhodakasayi. At Vraja He reveals His own Nature as Krsna with cit in fullness; as Baladeva, He reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service of Himself as Sri Krsna.

Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarsana, reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Narayana.

Mahavisnu, the Incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-sakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha-sakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas. (sattva, rajah, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 215-216)

 

[Guruvani]

Visnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve Godhead he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency. (Sri Caitanya's Teacings-Part II, Chapter One, Third Edition, p. 365-6 by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta)

[Guruvani]

Tatastha has both the power of associating with temporal as well as eternal planes. Souls who have got their stations at tatastha have got free will. Each of the individual souls by exercising his free will can abuse or properly use his independence . . . The souls in the tatastha position are not one, but many in number. Thay are not to associate themselves with unalloyed Cit Sakti or unalloyed Acit or Maya Sakti. In the tatastha position, souls do not show any activity but they are found to be in an indolent stage. (Sri Chaitanya's Teachings-Part II, Chapter One, p. 391-2, Third Edition)

[Guruvani]

The inconceivably narrow line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called Tata; so also the meeting line of the Cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the Acit world or the region of maya is called Tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the Tata is known as the Tatastha (lying at the Tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the Cit or the Acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that . . . (From an English article by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati entitled, Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, 10th paragraph)

[Guruvani]

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

[Guruvani]

. . in that pure conscious state [as in the spiritual world] the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. (Bhag. 2.9.1, purp. last parag.)

[Guruvani]

 

Visvambhara Goswami, the late and highly respected Radha-ramana goswami, [Vrndavana, India] stated with much astonishment:

 

They (Iskcon devotees) think like that? That the Lord's eternal associates fall from the spiritual world? I cannot believe it.

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

Sri Pejwara Swami of Pejwara Mutt, Udupi (Renowned acarya of Madhva sampradaya):

 

The siddhanta is clear. How can there be any misunderstanding; to think that the Lord's associates have fallen?

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

'Can you say "inconceivable", children? I knew you could!'

 

--Mr. Rogers

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada did not say in this purport that the conditioned souls originated in Goloka, nor did he say that the conditioned souls originated in the brahmajyoti. We have to remember that the brahmajyoti is the effulgence of the body of the Lord. Maybe that's the problem. I know from discussions with many Prabhupada sisyas in the '70s and beyond that they practically considered the brahmajyoti to be a dity word. In some ways Gaudiya Siddhanta can be quite complex as it tries to harmonize and accomodate opposites or paradoxes. The Pradymna Swami Sleepervadis do not think that there even exits a paradox in the origin of the jiva soul. That is because they have no understanding of acintya bheda [a]bheda tattva and try to force their Christian conception upon Gaudiya Vaisnavism. The followers of acintya bheda [a]bheda tattva will see that when Srila Prabhupada says, "There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this" [enjoying separately from Krsna], he is referring to a paradox that is beyond the conception of the material mind and intelligence. When Srila Sridhar Maharaja explains that from the viewpoint of siddhanta that the soul's origins are the brahmajyoti he automatically assumes the capacity of the audience to accommodate the inherent paradox. That paradox is that the brahmajyoti is not a static place it but rather a position that has been described a tathasta or marginal. Both the brahmajyoti and the jiva souls that comprise it are compared to the demarcation between the seashore and the sea. There is no static line and there's no way to tell exactly where that line is, even conceptually for our puppy brains. Consequently it appears that Prabhupada is alluding to that kind of paradox. It is apasiddhantic to declare that the baddha jivas originate in Goloka and that's why you never see such a phrase or sentence in Prabhupada's books.

[Guruvani]

 

Laksmi Tathachar, Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Karnartaka, (respected member of Ramanuja sampradaya)

 

It is not possible that those associating with Lord Visnu in Vaikuntha could ever fall down.

 

 

[Guruvani]

Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaja, did not hesitate to state: "No." [The residents of the spiritual world do not fall down.] "It is very clearly written that the source of the jivas is the tatastha-sakti."

[Guruvani]

 

Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayan Maharaja has written in Pinnacle of Devotion, page 15,

 

Being in Krsna's association, any spiritual being, whether

kayavyuha,

(expansion),

sadhana-siddha,

or

nitya-siddha,

will

never, never, never

take a material body in this world. They will never be opposed to Krsna. Because there is no

maya

in Goloka Vrndavana they can never forget Krsna. Only Yogamaya is there, helping the devotees to increase their

prema

for Krsna by arranging an opportunity for them to serve Him. Because there is no chance of falling from Goloka Vrndavana,

siddha bhumi,

no conditioned soul has ever come from there. Rather, they have come from the

tatastha

line, from Karanodakasayi Visnu.

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

So, you take the 25%/75% numbers literally, eh?

 

I like to imagine the numbers are more like .00000000000001% come to the Material World and the rest go straight Home.

 

But, hey, call me a rosy optimist!!

 

 

The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee of whom some are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless conscious projection.

[theist]

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

It all depends on what your definition of "is" is.

 

--Bill Clinton

 

 

 

I give up.

[Laulyam]

Vrajanatha: Once an influential brahmana pandita arrived in Navadvipa, and in a conference of intellectuals, he established that only the jiva exists. His theory was that this jiva creates everything in his dreams, and it is because of this that he enjoys happiness and suffers distress. Then, when the dream breaks, he sees that he is nothing but brahma. To what extent is this idea correct?

Babaji: This is, again, Mayavada. If, as they say, brahma is undifferentiated, how can it possibly produce the jiva and his dreaming state? Mayavadis use examples, such as, ‘the illusion of seeing mother-of-pearl in an oyster shell as gold’ and ‘the illusion of taking a rope to be a snake,’ but their philosophy cannot provide a consistent basis for advaya-jnana.

Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

Sri Krsna, being established in each of His saktis, manifests His svarupa according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the cit-svarupa, He manifests His svarupa as Sri Krsna and also as Narayana, the Lord of Paravyoma; when He is situated in the jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva; and being established in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Visnu forms: Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupa as sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jiva and spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas will begin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. The Vedas say in Taittiriya Upanisad (2.9)

 

 

 

yato vaco nivartante aprapya manasa saha

 

The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable to attain Him.

I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa).

[krsna]

 

Vrajanatha: Once an influential brahmana pandita arrived in Navadvipa, and in a conference of intellectuals, he established that only the jiva exists. His theory was that this jiva creates everything in his dreams, and it is because of this that he enjoys happiness and suffers distress. Then, when the dream breaks, he sees that he is nothing but brahma. To what extent is this idea correct?

Babaji: This is, again, Mayavada. If, as they say, brahma is undifferentiated, how can it possibly produce the jiva and his dreaming state? Mayavadis use examples, such as, ‘the illusion of seeing mother-of-pearl in an oyster shell as gold’ and ‘the illusion of taking a rope to be a snake,’ but their philosophy cannot provide a consistent basis for advaya-jnana.

Vrajanatha: So maya has nothing whatever to do with creating the svarupa of the jivas – this has to be accepted. At the same time, I have also clearly understood that the jiva is by nature subject to the influence of maya. Now I want to know, did the cit-sakti create the jivas and give them their tatastha-svabhava (marginal nature)?

Babaji: No, the cit-sakti is paripurna-sakti, the complete potency of Krsna, and its manifestations are all eternally perfect substances.The jiva is not nitya-siddha, although when he performs sadhana, he can become sadhana-siddha and enjoy transcendental happiness like the nitya-siddhas, eternally perfect beings. All the four types of Srimati Radhika’s sakhis are nitya-siddha, and they are direct expansions (kaya-vyuha) of the cit-sakti, Srimati Radhika Herself. All the jivas, on the other hand, have manifested from Sri Krsna’s jiva-sakti. The cit-sakti is Sri Krsna’s complete sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is His incomplete sakti. Just as the complete tattvas are all transformations of the complete potency, similarly innumerable atomic, conscious jivas are transformations of the incomplete sakti.

Sri Krsna, being established in each of His saktis, manifests His svarupa according to the nature of that sakti. When He is situated in the cit-svarupa, He manifests His svarupa as Sri Krsna and also as Narayana, the Lord of Paravyoma; when He is situated in the jiva-sakti, He manifests His svarupa as His vilasa-murti of Vraja, Baladeva; and being established in the maya-sakti, He manifests the three Visnu forms: Karanodakasayi, Ksirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. In His Krsna form in Vraja, He manifests all the spiritual affairs to the superlative degree. In His Baladeva svarupaas sesa-tattva, He manifests nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas, eternally liberated associates, who render eight types of service to Krsna sesitattva-svarupa, the origin of sesa-tattva. Again, as sesa-rupa Sankarsana in Paravyoma, He manifests eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services as eternally liberated associates of sesi-rupa Narayana. Maha-Visnu, who is an avatara of Sankarsana, situates Himself in the jiva-sakti, and in His Paramatma svarupa, He manifests the jivas who have the potential to be involved in the material world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya, and unless they attain the shelter of the hladini-sakti of the cit-sakti by Bhagavan’s mercy, the possibility of their being defeated by maya remains. The countless conditioned jivas who have been conquered by maya are subordinate to the three modes of material nature. Bearing all this in mind, the siddhanta is that it is only the jiva-sakti, and not the cit-sakti, that manifests the jivas.

Vrajanatha: You said earlier that the cit world is eternal, and so are the jivas. If this is true, how can an eternal entity possibly be created, manifested or produced? If it is created at some point of time, it must have been non-existent before that, so how can we accept that it is eternal?

Babaji: The time and space that you experience in this material world are completely different from time and space in the spiritual world. Material time is divided into three aspects: past, present and future. However, in the spiritual world there is only one undivided, eternally present time. Every event of the spiritual world is eternally present.

Whatever we say or describe in the material world is under the jurisdiction of material time and space, so when we say – “The jivas were created,” “The spiritual world was manifested,” or “There is no influence of maya in creating the form of the jivas,” – material time is bound to influence our language and our statements. This is inevitable in our conditioned state, so we cannot remove the influence of material time from our descriptions of the atomic jivaand spiritual objects. The conception of past, present and future always enters them in some way or another. Still, those who can discriminate properly can understand the application of the eternal present when they comprehend the purport of the descriptions of the spiritual world. Baba, be very careful in this matter. Give up the inevitable baseness, or the aspect of the description that is fit to be rejected, and have spiritual realization.

All Vaisnavas say that the jiva is an eternal servant of Krsna, that his eternal nature is to serve Krsna, and that he is now bound by maya, because he has forgotten that eternal nature. However, everyone knows that the jiva is an eternal entity, of which there are two types: nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The subject has been explained in this way only because the conditioned human intellect being controlled by pramada (inattentiveness), is unable to comprehend a subject matter. Realized sadhakas, though, experience transcendental truth through their cit-samadhi. Our words always have some material limitation, so whatever we say will have some mayika defects. My dear son, you should always endeavor to realize the pure truth. Logic and argument cannot help at all in this regard, so it is futile to use them to try to understand inconceivable subject matters.

I know that you will not be able to understand these subjects in a moment, but as you cultivate these transcendental moods within your heart, you will realize cinmaya-bhava more and more. In other words, all the transcendental moods will manifest themselves in the core of your purified heart. Your body is material, and all the activities of your body are also material, but the essence of your being is not material; you are an atomic conscious entity. The more you know yourself, the more you will be able to realize how your svarupa is a tattva superior to the world of maya. Even if I tell you, you will not realize it, or simply be hearing you will not attain it. Cultivate the practice of chanting hari-nama as much as possible. As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas willbegin to manifest in your heart automatically, and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world. Mind and speech both have their origin in matter, and they cannot touch the transcendental truth, even with the greatest endeavor. The Vedas say in Taittiriya Upanisad (2.9)

 

 

 

yato vaco nivartante aprapya manasa saha

 

 

The speech and the mind return from brahma, being unable to attain Him.

I advise you not to inquire about this matter from anyone, but to realize it yourself. I have just given you an indication (abhasa).

 

spot on

 

more chanting is required:pray:

 

As you go on chanting hari-nama, these transcendental bhavas will

begin to manifest in your heart automatically,

and to the degree that they do so, you will be able to realize the transcendental world.