In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream,

[Guest guest]

In a lecture on the Bhagavad-gita given in London on August 6, 1973, Srila Prabhupada further explains:

 

“We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago”

 

Srila Prabhupada “formerly we were with krsna in his lila or sport”.

Just as Krishna is a perpetual bodily person, so are all His marginal emanations however, Krishna is always master and his marginal nitya-siddha devotees are always His servant.

 

One only thinks they are fallen or dreams they are fallen, but actually their svarupa body never falls down. Rather it is ones independent non-Krishna conscious thinking and ones self absorbed ‘dreaming’ thoughts of grandeur that transfer ones awareness of their surroundings to the restricted mahat-tattva as Srila Prabhupada has clearly explained.

 

The occurrence of time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha

 

No one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka. Please understand that once and for all. Because of the absence of the time factor there is no loss of consciousness in Goloka once one’s nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated and one has returned to the awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is perpetually serving Krishna. Once one has returned one realizes herself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body and the so-called fall was only an illusion...it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it.

 

Srila Prabhupada- Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

 

One only thinks they are fallen or dreams they are fallen, but actually their svarupa body never falls down. Rather it is ones independent non-Krishna conscious thinking and ones self absorbed ‘dreaming’ thoughts of grandeur that transfer ones awareness of their surroundings to the restricted mahat-tattva as Srila Prabhupada has clearly explained.

 

This restricted conscious awareness or the dreaming condition of the marginalliving entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness. Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in Krishna’s/Gods creation. The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will.

 

The ‘Impersonalist Brahmajyoti-origin believers’ also incorrectly believe the nitya-baddha jiva/souls have never previously seen Krishna however, their Impersonal understanding obstructs them from understanding that long, long, long before entering the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahma-sayujya or tatastha individual dormant consciousness, they had first chose to extend from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, their nitya-baddha sub-conscious desires and non-Krishna conscious dreams that first enter the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu, going on for millions upon millions of births until eventually reaching that Impersonal Brahmajyoti aspect of ones nitya-baddha consciousness that is called the jiva-tatastha.

 

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti effulgence is simply creations of the marginal living entities lower-self or nitya-baddha non-devotional consciousnesses that originates from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti and ultimately originate as the fully developed svarupa living entity that IS the magnificent effulgence emanating/surrounding Krishna. (How this happens will be clearly explained over the next few chapters). So the correct meaning of the word marginal means one can choose to either be on the side of exploitation (nitya-baddha sub-conscious dreaming position that can only exist in the mahat-tattva) or always remain as ones nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka on the side of perpetual dedication and devotion to Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state, we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but a perishable reality that exists in a temporary state in one corner of the Spiritual Sky, Brahmajyoti or creation”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -“We forget our actual positionand thus are free to act out our desire and dreams in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non-Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world but actually we are not fallen, we are simply in a dreaming consciousness that originates from our nitya-siddha body, those dreams are called the nitya-baddha or materially conditioned consciousness”

 

Srila Prabhupada - clearly explains that in Vaikuntha beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, we are simply dreaming from our nitya-siddha body, those dreams are called the nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

Srila Prabhupada - - “Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but we have forgotten our eternal relationship with the Lord”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -– “Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -– “By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi -- perfection of one's constitutional position. So Arjuna was a devotee, and he was in touch with the Supreme Lord in friendship”.

Srila Prabhupada - is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna.

 

Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position,we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

 

Srila Prabhupada–“We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. (MEANING OUR NITYA-SIDDHA-SVARUPA BODY)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself.

 

In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

 

Srila Prabhupada – “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya.

 

Srila Prabhupada “FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -"But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like in a dreamwe are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only".

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming conditionis called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second".

 

Srila Prabhupada -"He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he can go only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes BACK to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

 

Bhativinode Thakur -“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned jiva-tattva or jiva-s’akti extended consciousness looses the memory of their original spiritual rasa bodily form in Vaikuntha. . . Material rasas are perverted reflections of the nitya-siddha original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

 

Ramanuja Acharya also vigorously argues that the spiritual perpetual rasa body of the soul has always existed and that upon liberation, one once again attains that which has always existed. (Vs. 4.4.1),

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up Krishna.” There is no mention of originally being in the Brahmajyoti, tatastha or the Viraja River in the mahat-tattva outside the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, or being always conditioned, or being in anything less than a fully developed perpetually vigraha

 

devotee in a relationship with Krishna that is eternally there in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary dreaming consciousness (conditioned soul or jiva consciousness) restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

Srila Prabhupada -“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world.

 

But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming statedue to our non-Krishna conscious choices”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -"In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual positionand thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer".

 

These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body),

 

We are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition that cannot stay in Goloka.

 

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

 

Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva”.

 

Clearly explained here by Srila Prabhupada is how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body. are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva.

 

This seconday (conditioned) extension of the nitya-siddha is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.

 

Srila Prabhupada “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”

 

Srila Prabhupada- “He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.” Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation”.

The perpetual nature of a Jiva is the eternal active servant of Krishna as their nitya-siddha-svarupa origin. A Jiva as the nitya-baddha-tatastha consciousness (border line) or potency of Krishna exists simultaneously as a separate and non-separated entity. In other words when one chooses to forget Krishna, one is unwilling to serve Krishna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily self and therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition to exist. The nitya-baddha consciousness originates from the nitya-siddha body and is instantaneously in the mahat-tattva, divided time and space when one chooses to forget Krishna.

 

Its not that we have two different selves, no, it’s not like that, there is only one marginal self that chooses to be with Krishna or reject Krishna. The simple choice all marginal living entities have is accepting ones Krishna Conscious perpetual body in Vaikuntha, while the other is rejecting Krishna and being confined to counterfeit temporary bodily forms in the mahat-tattva.

 

The difference is eternal time in Goloka or Vaikuntha world beyond past and future that exists in the perpetual present in contrast to a mahat-tattva or material world that is governed by time, space, past, present and future. In other words it is not that we have an eternal body in Vaikuntha and we are simultaneously in the material world, we are in the material world due to choice however, what separates our awareness from our perpetual body and our present biological body is the concept of time that can place us in both places at the same time.

 

What makes our consciousness appear to be divided into two (nitya-siddha and nitya baddha one is Krishna Conscious while the other isn’t) is the perception of time that we choose to be in; this is an important realization and is the only way to understand the difference between nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. In genuine reality there is no division because there is no time as we know it within Vaikuntha, only transcendental Lila time. There also is no decay, no birth, disease old age and death, what is there is perpetually there in their full potential which includes all the marginal expansions of Krishna as their unending rasa or svarupa individual bodies, or our svarupa and rasa bodies. So how can we also be in the material world? The answer is the time factor and not the division of the self however, in this thesis the nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal form or higher self while the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is called the secondary conscious projection or lower self. It only appears that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time. These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing mercy of the Spiritual Master

 

 

Srila Prabhupada is the personification of all Shastra He's life is the living Bhagavatam

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada -"He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position”.

 

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

 

 

Indeed, we - the conditioned souls - are now here in the material world. It is SO obvious, yet the devotional mayavadis deny that fact by using word jugglery.

 

There are hundreds of verses in the shastra that confirm that, yet the devotional mayavadis think they know better, "deeper" truth...

[theist]

The term devotonal mayavadis is an oxymoron. Imitation bhakti is not Bhakti.

[Guest guest]

 

The term devotonal mayavadis is an oxymoron. Imitation bhakti is not Bhakti.

 

Even Prabhupada sometimes called his disciples "mayavadis". Mayavadis practice devotion to achieve liberation. How many devotees do you know who practice devotion so they can exit out of this world? easily 50% of devotees I know fall into this category.

 

What makes someone a mayavadi? For example, a belief that this life is just an illusion, without real eternal substance and basis. maya-vada - belief that this is all maya, an ilusion.

 

the theory presented in the above posts is definitely in that category.

[Beggar]

 

The occurrence of time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha

 

This really means that the demarcations of time which actually measure movement, have no debilitating effects in the Vaikunthas. In the highest Vaikuntha, the divine couple engage in their pastimes which can are described in Astha Kalya Lila. The Sleep-vadis have no conception of this therefore they misinterpret the meaning of "only the present exits" to be some kind of impersonalist "be here now" experience.

[Guruvani]

Why would Srila Prabhupada invent something that is not found in shastra?

The conception that a living entity fell from Goloka or Vaikuntha is not to be found anywhere in shastra. Until Srila Prabhupada, this idea was not being preached in Gaudiya philosophy.

 

Why would Srila Prabhupada introduce this kind of preaching?

 

he explains:

 

 

Krsna's service is so sublime that even if we cheat, you are not culprit. But because we have to deal with the worldly man, we have to go according to their rules and regulations on cheating. Otherwise, a devotee of Krsna, he never cheats. He never cheats. Whatever he does . . . Just like a mother says to his child, "My dear child, if you take this medicine, I will give you this lugloo." The child is diseased. He will not be able to digest lugloo, but the mother sometimes cheats him. And when he takes the medicine the lugloo is not delivered. Similarly, sometimes we have to say so many things very pleasing to him, but our business is that let him take this medicine. That is tactics. But that is not cheating. If the mother helps the child in drinking medicine and then afterwards she does not supply the lugloo, that is not cheating. Some way or other... That is the instruction of Rupa Gosvami, yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet: "Somehow or other, let everyone be Krsna conscious." There is no question of vidhi-nisedha. Sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah. The other rules and regulation will act as servant, but the main business is to bring one to Krsna consciousness. That is the main business. We are not meant for cheating anyone. We have no business. But to lead one to Krsna consciousness we may say something sometimes. So that is not cheating. (SP Room Conv. Atlanta, March 2, 1975)

 

[Guruvani]

Why would Srila Prabhupada preach the fall from Goloka theory?

 

Srila Prabhupada :

 

This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees.

 

 

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

We are not meant for cheating anyone. We have no business. But to lead one to Krsna consciousness we may say something sometimes.

[Guest guest]

The best quote is the question about what you mean by "is". Clinton was criticized for this, but he was no dummy. It was a reasonable comment.

 

What do we mean by time? Eternal life? Actually, physicists have defined our concept of time as existing only on the surface of the planet. So, if we jump, are we in timelessness?

 

No, we have to consider what "the surface" means. While in the gravitational pull, when we jump. we dont escape the influence of time. If we jump beyond gravity, then we dont come down, or if we did, we would be many miles from where we started, because the earth planet spins 1000 miles per hour. Superman goes in the future by flying faster than the spinning eatrth, crossing the dateline as many times needed (clockwise or counterclockwise, depending on if he wants to go forward or back in time.) This is not a silly idea, it is fully conceptual and accurate as well.

 

The problem is that time is a concept only available in the world of death. Time is death. Tick-tock. Ill sing a song here.

 

THE ROCK c 1995 by mahaksadasa

Kipu’ka Overture

 

Youth

I cannot it back

No money ever stopped the ticking of the clock

And if I sell my soul I will never get it back

So I run on to the Rescue, I run on to the Rock

 

When I hear tick-tock, it’s a real culture shock

Youth never goes away, it’s right there in the Rock

But if I never call His Name, I’ll never hear His knock

And I’ll fill another coffin and start another clock

 

If I run right now, I’ll never get away

I don’t really know if I have another day

If I can’t give my life to Him, I’ll throw it in the bay

The Rock is Govinda, the Rock is Jah way

 

I need to have Jah love, please don’t hide it all away

I cannot run no longer, can I give it up today?

To the Rock, Govinda, to the Rock is Jah way

Rock, Oh Govinda, Oh Rock of Jah way

 

Covered all in wrinkles, why I gotta talk?

Youth is not my subject, I ought to take a walk

It went away and broke my face and I thought I had it locked

Old and gray and blown away, laying on my back

 

I can chant down Babylon, and never ever crack

Even in a prison yard, where soldiers break my back

Sri Govinda’s Name can break all the prison locks

Sri Govinda’s the Rescue, I run on to His Rock

 

If I run right now, I’ll never get away

I don’t really know if I have another day

If I can’t give my life to Him, I’ll throw it in the bay

The Rock is Govinda, the Rock is Jah way

 

I need to have Jah love, please don’t hide it all away

I cannot run no longer, can I give it up today?

To the Rock, Govinda, to the Rock is Jah way

Rock, Oh Govinda, Oh Rock of Jah way

 

Consider timelessness. This means, by definition, a world without the concept of time. Vaikuntha, because all anxiety is time related, fear-realated, and all fear is linked to time running out, like death itself, time running out. Swarupa siddha, the perfect condition of the living entity, is in timelessness. This means that not only is there no past and present and future, even such a concept is absent. Because the person has no concept of time, there is no regard for a "time" such a being spent in forgetfulness of swarup. Because the nitya siddha is eternally serving the supreme lord, there is no acknowledgement of any past lapse of such consciousness.

 

When we go back home, back to godhead, will we remember the glory of red white and blue, America, India, Muslims and catholics. Will we remember our parents, wives and children?

 

Eternal life IS without the time factor at all. It all depends on what is meant by "IS". Go, bubba, thanks for your teaching for this topic.

 

hare krsana, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35,

[Guruvani]

. a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

[Guruvani]

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)

[Guruvani]

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.16

 

dvāv imau puruṣau loke

kṣaraś cākṣara eva ca

kṣaraḥ sarvāṇi bhūtāni

kūṭa-stho 'kṣara ucyate

 

SYNONYMS

dvau — two; imau — these; puruṣau — living entities; loke — in the world; kṣaraḥ — fallible; ca — and; akṣaraḥ — infallible; eva — certainly; ca — and; kṣaraḥ — fallible; sarvāṇi — all; bhūtāni — living entities; kūṭa-sthaḥ — in oneness; akṣaraḥ — infallible; ucyate — is said.

 

 

TRANSLATION

There are two classes of beings, the fallible and the infallible. In the material world every living entity is fallible, and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible.

 

 

So, I guess according to the fall-from-goloka gang, the beings in the spiritual world are actually fallible and Krishna was telling a lie?

 

What part of "infallible" is it that they don't understand?

 

They are saying that the infallible is actually fallible.

 

Somebody is wrong....

either Krishna is wrong or the fall-from-goloka gang is wrong..

 

who do you believe?

[Guruvani]

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 15.6 purport,

 

 

As long as a living entity is in this dark material world, he is in conditional life, but as soon as he reaches the spiritual sky by cutting through the false, perverted tree of this material world, he becomes liberated. Then there is no chance of his coming back here.

[Guest guest]

 

So, I guess according to the fall-from-goloka gang, the beings in the spiritual world are actually fallible and Krishna was telling a lie?

 

 

Krsna also lied by saying that there actually IS someone here in the material world afterall...

[theist]

What part of marginal do you not understand?

 

Anyway this thread was started to explore the nature of the dreaming soul and not intended for another pointless fall debate.

[theist]

According to Srila Pabhupada this material world is a "misconceived dream".

 

 

Now the next question automatically made will be why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be in his pure consciousness as a part and parcel of the Lord and thus be engaged in the loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made; but because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become as independent as the Lord is. All the nondevotee living entities are desirous of becoming equally as powerful as the Lord, although they are not fit to become so. The living entities are illusioned by the will of the Lord because they wanted to become like Him. Like a person who thinks of becoming a king without possessing the necessary qualification, when the living entity desires to become the Lord Himself, he is put in a condition of dreaming that he is a king. Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forget his factual life and thus dream of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord. The child cries to have the moon from the mother, and the mother gives the child a mirror to satisfy the crying and disturbing child with the reflection of the moon. Similarly, the crying child of the Lord is given over to the reflection, the material world, to lord it over as karmi and to give this up in frustration to become one with the Lord. Both these stages are dreaming illusions only. There is no necessity of tracing out the history of when the living entity desired this. But the fact is that as soon as he desired it, he was put under the control of atma-maya by the direction of the Lord. Therefore the living entity in his material condition is dreaming falsely that this is "mine" and this is "I." The dream is that the conditioned soul thinks of his material body as "I" or falsely thinks that he is the Lord and that everything in connection with that material body is "mine." Thus only in dream does the misconception of "I" and "mine" persist life after life. This continues life after life, as long as the living entity is not purely conscious of his identity as the subordinate part and parcel of the Lord.

 

In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream, and in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. SB 2.9.1 purport

[Guruvani]

ok, then how about this:

 

 

In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream, and in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. SB 2.9.1 purport

 

In pure consciousness the living entity never forgets that he is never the Lord.

 

So, then why are people saying that from pure consciousness the living entity sometimes does forget that he is not the Lord?

 

Srila Prabhupada just said that in pure consciousness he NEVER forgets.

 

Then, why are they saying they actually he DOES forget?

 

Then there is no meaning to "NEVER FORGETS".

 

Then actually he does forget, even though Srila Prabhupada said "HE NEVER FORGETS"?

 

Something doesn't jive here.

 

"NEVER FORGETS" is becoming "well, actually he does forget".

[Guest guest]

 

According to Srila Pabhupada this material world is a "misconceived dream".

 

BG 16.8

 

asatyam apratistham te

jagad ahur anisvaram

aparaspara-sambhutam

kim anyat kama-haitukam

 

TRANSLATION

They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire, and has no cause other than lust.

 

PURPORT

The demonic conclude that the world is phantasmagoria. There is no cause, no effect, no controller, no purpose: everything is unreal.

------------------------

 

 

you guys definitely drift in that direction.

[Guruvani]

The simple truth:

 

"A portion of the brahmajyoti is covered by the Maha Tattva and the ONE becomes many to increase his personal enjoyment and his ever expanding service"

 

Radharani is compared to a creeper-vine of devotional service to Krishna.

That creeper-vine of devotion is always sprouting new leaves and new flowers eternally.

 

Not a single associate of Srimati Radharani has ever fallen down to become a worm in stool.

 

Can gopis become worms in stool?

 

Only a maniac would ever propose such offensive ideas.

[Guruvani]

 

According to Srila Pabhupada this material world is a "misconceived dream".

 

Actually the only thing that is a misconceived dream is our false ego of being the Lord of the material world.

 

Otherwise, the great devotees have shown that the so-called material world is actually Vrindavan for the pure devotee.

 

The misconceived dream is not the world.

The misconceived dream is our false ego of enjoyer or the material world.

 

the world is real.

our ego of being the enjoyers is what is NOT real.

[Guest guest]

And you drift in whatever direction your rationalizing speculative mind tells you to in order to have the sense that you are "right" or "correct" even when you are not.

 

For the simple truth is that misconceiving the dream to be the PERMANENT ETERNAL REALITY, instead of properly conceiving the dream to be what it is, which is a REALITY THAT IS TEMPORARY AND DREAMLIKE, is the point.

 

Misconceiving is not to say that it is not real.

 

Misconceiving is a type of action engaged in by a deluded consciousness which accepts the illusory and temporary reality to be the ultimate and eternally permanent reality.

 

Your misconception has now been terminally exposed as such.

 

Back to reality.

 

 

BG 16.8

 

asatyam apratistham te

jagad ahur anisvaram

aparaspara-sambhutam

kim anyat kama-haitukam

 

TRANSLATION

They say that this world is unreal, that there is no foundation and that there is no God in control. It is produced of sex desire, and has no cause other than lust.

 

PURPORT

The demonic conclude that the world is phantasmagoria. There is no cause, no effect, no controller, no purpose: everything is unreal.

------------------------

 

 

you guys definitely drift in that direction.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

When I'm trying to explain a concept to somebody and they are just not getting it, I try to explain it in a different way. If they still can't get it, I try to explain it in an even simpler (reduced) fashion.

 

This seems to be what Srila Prabhupada was doing in the conversations. Everything is there in the books for those with the sincerity and purity of heart to read it without imposing their own speculative interpretations upon the scripture, but so many of us fail to grasp the meaning.

 

Guru, in his mercy, will try to explain things in a way we can grasp.

 

In this sense, I agree with what Guruvani is saying about Prabhupadas lectures and books.

 

Unlike Srila Prabhupada, if I was faced with so much stubborn attachment to ignorance, I would have been screaming exasperatedly in no time.

 

 

I think the fact is they are references and I was there during some of those discussions, why can't you just except what Srila Prabhupada has said in stead of making silly excuses that Srila Prabhupada made all that up to appease his devotee. The taped words and the written words are equally important.

[Guest guest]

 

And you drift in whatever direction your rationalizing speculative mind tells you to in order to have the sense that you are "right" or "correct" even when you are not.

 

Prabhu, in case you missed that in your bhakta program, the Gaudiya Vaishnava siddhanta maintains that this material world is REAL. That is not my speculation.

 

You can dance all you like around that issue, but temporal nature of this world does not negate it's reality.

[Guest guest]

 

Misconceiving is a type of action engaged in by a deluded consciousness which accepts the illusory and temporary reality to be the ultimate and eternally permanent reality.

 

Your misconception has now been terminally exposed as such.

 

Back to reality.