In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream,

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

That great souls cheat others may be astonishing to know, but it is a fact that great souls cheat others for a great cause.

[Laulyam]

"Dissolve Your Mind" - Buddha

 

Then another class of philosophy is that of Buddha: "Only the combination of different things has created your mental system. With the dissolution of the mental system, nothing remains. So, somehow, we must dissolve the mental system. Practice ahimsa, nonviolence, satya, truthfulness, and so on."

It is seen that all these philosophers are talking either of renunciation or of exploitation (bhukti, mukti). And by setting different types of enchanting traps, they arrange to capture the jiva soul. Bhaktivinoda Thakura says, "But I have come to realize that these fellows are all cheaters. And they all have this common stand: they have no touch of Your devotion, Your service. There, they are one. They cannot deliver any real good. They are common to oppose Your devotional service and supremacy. And ultimately they leave us in chaos.

"But from the ultimate standpoint, I see that they are agents engaged by You to segregate the seriously diseased persons to another ward, for the good of the less seriously diseased patients. It is Your arrangement to segregate the hopeless persons to another side for the benefit of the good side. That is Your design, and they are playing at Your hand like so many dolls. They are Your agents and they are also serving You in some way, because nothing is outside You." Bhaktivinoda Thakura concludes saying, "I bid good-bye to them all. I feel in my heart that I shall show respect to all these so-called good agents from a distance, however my only real capital is the dust of the holy feet of Your devotees. I rely on that dust as the source of all my prospects. I seek to put all my energy into taking the dust of their holy lotus feet upon my head. This is everything for me."

 

 

 

 

[theist]

 

Actually the only thing that is a misconceived dream is our false ego of being the Lord of the material world.

 

 

Duh ...Who else do you think might misconceive a dream for reality...Krsna?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Otherwise, the great devotees have shown that the so-called material world is actually Vrindavan for the pure devotee.

This is where many of us go astray.

 

We forget that Vaikunta, Goloka, and hell are all states of consciousness, not geographical locations.

 

Remembering that puts the terms "fall", "dreaming", "return", etc. into a different perspective, doesn't it?

 

[and, yes, I know I can't go to Goloka in my mind--just referencing James Taylor]

[Guest guest]

 

Indeed, we - the conditioned souls - are now here in the material world. It is SO obvious, yet the devotional mayavadis deny that fact by using word jugglery.

 

There are hundreds of verses in the shastra that confirm that, yet the devotional mayavadis think they know better, "deeper" truth...

 

As already said, to undertand we all originate from Goloka is only possible by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada, without his mercy you and the rest of the aspiring neophyte devotees on this thread will never understand.

 

Most of what you call 'mayavadi word jugglery' are quotes from Srila Prabhupada and writing based on those quotes.

 

Please be careful not to offend Srila Prabhupada

[Guest guest]

 

Most of what you call 'mayavadi word jugglery' are quotes from Srila Prabhupada and writing based on those quotes.

 

 

Over the years I have seen too much nonsense "based on what Prabhupada has said and wrote" to fall for that argument.

 

Whatever Prabhupada said and wrote must be understood in the context of our Saraswata siddhanta, using the criteria of guru, sadhu, and shastra. All interpretations of his teachings failing these criteria are to be considered bogus.

[gHari]

<center></center>

Once we had only two feuding camps: the red triangle camp and the yellow circle camp. Now we have a third - the red-yellow cone camp. The coneheads can see meaning in both other camps, but acknowledge that boh are correct, inconceivably, in eternity.

 

The big fish can swim to both sides of the river. The shoreline is sometimes on this side of the marginal line in the sand, but sometimes it is on that side of the line. Free will can move the fish and shoreline. It has to be, to be free will.

[Vigraha]

 

<CENTER></CENTER>

Once we had only two feuding camps: the red triangle camp and the yellow circle camp. Now we have a third - the red-yellow cone camp. The coneheads can see meaning in both other camps, but acknowledge that boh are correct, inconceivably, in eternity.

 

The big fish can swim to both sides of the river. The shoreline is sometimes on this side of the marginal line in the sand, but sometimes it is on that side of the line. Free will can move the fish and shoreline. It has to be, to be free will.

 

 

 

The word impersonal is a bit harsh for aspiring devotees who believe the end result is Goloka - interesting comment ghari. Regardless of where our origins are from, the desires of all aspiring devotees is to learn how to love Krishna and serve his devotees, only then will our origins be revealed. No-one can understand on an academic level, it is only revealed by the causeless mercy of the Spiritual Master

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

My dandavats to the moderators of this thread for their most recent wise intervention _^o_

[Beggar]

 

<center></center>

 

 

A graphic representation of acintya bheda [a]bheda tattva, everything in Krsna's energies is sumultaneously one and different from itself and everything else.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Yep. Count me in the red-yellow-cone camp. Everybody in this discussion is right in their own way.

 

This is yet another example of the blind wise men arguing about the elephant.

 

 

<center></center>

Once we had only two feuding camps: the red triangle camp and the yellow circle camp. Now we have a third - the red-yellow cone camp. The coneheads can see meaning in both other camps, but acknowledge that boh are correct, inconceivably, in eternity.

 

The big fish can swim to both sides of the river. The shoreline is sometimes on this side of the marginal line in the sand, but sometimes it is on that side of the line. Free will can move the fish and shoreline. It has to be, to be free will.

[krsna]

 

Yep. Count me in the red-yellow-cone camp. Everybody in this discussion is right in their own way.

 

This is yet another example of the blind wise men arguing about the elephant.

Fear not for the future,(KRSNA will take care, I am His eternal servant after all)

weep not for the past.(KRSNA has taken it upon Himself to indemnify, exonerate and exculpate all past mistakes, sins and debts to all those who fully surrender to Him unconditionally.)

 

:pray: :pray:

-- Percy Bysshe Shelley (1792-1822) English Poet

[mahak]

My siksa guru gave really good answer to the question of memory. Gita explains that Krsna remembers all his incarnations, Arjuna remembers nothing. A devotee asked if devotees could remember down the road. My siksa, asked him back, "Why would you want to?"

 

All this stuff about dreams is just like that, dreams. Dreams may be remembered right away upon awakening, but evaporate (usually) by breakfast. When we wake up, our dreaming state is of no consequence. So we were nitya baddha, so what? I dreamt that I was eternally conditioned by birth, death, and the horrors in-between. Ill have breakfast now (maybe that mango from talavana that I am always eating).

 

 

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

 

My siksa guru gave really good answer to the question of memory. Gita explains that Krsna remembers all his incarnations, Arjuna remembers nothing. A devotee asked if devotees could remember down the road. My siksa, asked him back, "Why would you want to?"

 

All this stuff about dreams is just like that, dreams. Dreams may be remembered right away upon awakening, but evaporate (usually) by breakfast. When we wake up, our dreaming state is of no consequence. So we were nitya baddha, so what? I dreamt that I was eternally conditioned by birth, death, and the horrors in-between. Ill have breakfast now (maybe that mango from talavana that I am always eating).

 

 

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Last night I dreamed I was a college student at Northwestrn University in Chicago.

I remember the snow and riding to school in a Buick with some older lady and couple of others and fighting deep snow to get there.

 

I remember seeing lake Michigan....

 

I remember being in class and the teacher, some headphones....

the darn dream just went on and on.

Even when I woke up and went back to sleep the same dream continued.

 

Alright, who on this forum goes to college at Northwestern?

 

It's was just another one of my psychic dreams where I was getting impressions from the life of somebody else.

[mahak]

What is it about chicago. In dreamworld, I was at a cubs game, walking by the lake, got murdered by a gangbanger 12 year old, a really good dream that I still remember.

 

Why chicago. Never been there, never been east of colorado. Maybe my best friend, the late Bhavadevi dasi (1953-1980), made me dream of her hometown. I like the cubs better than white sox. Hate bulls and bears, though.

 

UCLA. Not OJ.

 

haribol, mahak.

 

maybe it would be mo bettah to do a memorial dream topic.

[Vigraha]

 

 

THE SECRET VEDIC BOOK OF ORIGINS FINALLY RELEASED TO THE WORLD FOR ALL TO SEE.

 

 

 

 

Quantum physics or the science of possibilities revealed on the highest level. The mysterious origin of the soul is now within our grasp of understanding.

 

 

 

 

Gods/Krishna's creation of the Krishna Conscious Spiritual Sky and the mostly non-Krishna conscious material creation (mahat-tattva) situated in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti facilitated by the dreaming Maha-Vishnu expansion of the Godhead.

 

 

The following book is a concluding confirmation as clearly explained by His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, that the jiva/souls (all of Gods/Krishnas’ subsidiary, marginal living beings or all living entities) manifests originally and perpetually as a bodily (vigraha) servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead Lord Krishna (The Supreme Vigraha or Bodily Form) that can never vacate from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha (the perpetual Kingdom of God/Krishna) as their perpetual rasa (devotional mood) bodily serving Krishna.

If we are to correctly understand that we all originate from Goloka-Vrndavana, such realizations are only possible by the mercy of Srila Prabhupada and without his mercy one will never understand.

 

 

 

 

Everything Srila Prabhupada said and wrote must be understood in the context of His books, lectures, morning walks and classes is the correct way to appreciate the criteria of guru, sadhu, and shastra.

All interpretations of his teachings failing these criteria are to be considered bogus; therefore everthing in this book is based very clearly on the teachings of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami.

 

In a Nectar of Devotion lecture given on October 23, 1972, in Vrndavana, India, Srila Prabhupada explains:

 

“We should be always ready to offer respect to all, not only devotees, but everyone. Everyone! Why? Because every living entity is originally a devotee of Krishna. But circumstantially, being covered by the coat of Maya, he’s playing like demon. But his original nature is a devotee of Krishna. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsnera dasa. Everyone is eternally servant of Krishna. But being influenced by Maya, when he gets this body, given by Maya...Prakrtih kriyamananih gunaih karmani sarvasah, when he conducted by the three gunas of maya, he thinks himself otherwise.”

 

In a lecture on the Bhagavad-gita given in London on August 6, 1973, Srila Prabhupada further explains:

 

“We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago”

 

Srila Prabhupada “formerly we were with krsna in his lila or sport”.

 

 

 

The Jiva-soul: Its Origin, Nature, And Potentialities

 

 

The beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us that the perpetual Kingdom of Radha and Krishna, known as Krishna-Loka or Goloka-Vrndavana, is the original source of all creation and all living entities. This central planet further radiates an effulgence that encircles the Goloka-Vrndavana Planet with the imperishable Vishnu-Loka or the Vaikuntha Planets, where Krishna’s innumerable (countless) expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi reside, along with their infinite number of devotee’s (known as Krishna’s marginal potency or individual bodily servants) takes up 75% of the immortal Spiritual Sky or total creation. Krishna’s planet is centered above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in their surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets.

Both these transcendental abodes are made up of living vigraha (bodily) all-attractive conscious beings, individual entities, who are the bodily radiance of Krishna, serving the Supreme Vigraha Lord Krishna or His Lord Vishnu Expansions as their own infinitesimal vigraha bodies. It is also very important to understand in our present impersonal mundane religious and technological world, that all of us are originally individual perpetual bodily personalities; we are collectively and independently Krishna’s marginal potency in our everlasting original vigraha bodily position serving Krishna. Just like one cannot separate the Sun from the sunrays, the marginal living beings and Krishna are never separated. That analogy can be misleading because we certainly in no way resemble a spark or ray of sunlight and Krishna is certainly not a blazing Sun.

Krishna has an eternal bodily form and so does all of His marginal radiance of countless individual personalities.

 

Unfortunately many in various so-called Hindu and Vaishnava sects in India cannot understand this fact due to being polluted by Impersonalism. Through the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, we can understand we are collectively and independently Krishna’s marginal potency in our everlasting original bodily position serving Krishna. Being marginal means we can choose to remain as we really are as our full Krishna Conscious svarupa body, or consciously drift from that body and enter the material creation, not as our eternal devotional body, but as a conscious projection that creates its own counterfeit bodily forms facilitated by the creator of the material creation, Maha-Vishnu.

 

No material energy (Maha-Maya) can exist in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha; therefore it is impossible to forget Krishna, so how does one fall down? The simple answer is they choose to leave, Srila Prabhupada explains that the tendency is there with all nitya-siddha devotees because of being marginal energy of the Lord, to either stay with Krishna or reject him due to independent desires is the choice all marginal living entities have – they is why they are called marginal. Srila Prabhupada goes on to explain that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that that only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down.

 

This understanding of ‘vigraha’ (bodily form) is the highest realization of how all marginal living entities perpetually and originally existed – sat-cit-ananda-vigraha. Krishna’s marginal potency or the nitya-siddha-svarupa or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha devotee’s can never fall down as their original bodily devotional self because of the perpetual uninterrupted nature of the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is set in the eternal present beyond the concept of past and future (75% of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti).

 

The perpetual nature of a Jiva is the eternal active servant of Krishna as their nitya-siddha-svarupa BODILY origin. A Jiva as the nitya-baddha-tatastha consciousness (border line) or potency of Krishna exists simultaneously as a separate and non-separated entity. In other words when one chooses to forget Krishna, one is unwilling to serve Krishna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily self and therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition to exist.

 

 

 

The nitya-baddha consciousness originates from the nitya-siddha MARGINAL body and is instantaneously in the mahat-tattva, divided time and space when one chooses to forget Krishna.

 

 

Its not that we have two different selves, no, it’s not like that, there is only one marginal self that chooses to be with Krishna or reject Krishna. The simple choice all marginal living entities have is accepting ones Krishna Conscious perpetual body in Vaikuntha, while the other is rejecting Krishna and being confined to counterfeit temporary bodily forms in the mahat-tattva.

 

 

[Vigraha]

The difference is eternal time in Goloka or Vaikuntha world beyond past and future that exists in the perpetual present in contrast to a mahat-tattva or material world that is governed by time, space, past, present and future. In other words it is not that we have an eternal body in Vaikuntha and we are simultaneously in the material world, we are in the material world due to choice however, what separates our awareness from our perpetual body and our present biological body is the concept of time that can place us in both places at the same time.

What makes our consciousness appear to be divided into two (nitya-siddha and nitya baddha) one is Krishna as their unending rasa or svarupa individual bodies, or our svarupa and rasa bodies. So how can we also be in the material world? The answer is the time factor and not the division of the self however, in this thesis the nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal form or higher self while the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is called the secondary conscious projection or lower self. It only appears that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time. These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing mercy of the Spiritual Master.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In one corner of the painting above, one can see the less significant and smaller mahat-tattva unpreserved cloud, also in that Spiritual Sky. This dark cloud is the perishable material universe divided by past, present and future time zones existing in unlimited dimensions of sub-space (where ethereal vessels for both heavenly and hellish planets exist) universes and secular (biological worlds like our own planet) is only 25% of creation.

Unfortunately there are some Vaishnava schools of thought who teach that the soul emanates from the brahmajyoti (tatastha individual consciousness), which they foolishly claim, is living and growing from within itself. They claim that within the brahmajyoti is the source and impersonal origins of all marginal living entities that come to exist due to their equilibrium being somehow disturbed with the purpose of causing original activity to begin (a very vague impersonal statement), claiming that from non-differentiation in the Brahmajyoti, demarcation or separation from the Brahmajyoti begins and from there they have to work their way to Goloka that has never previously been seen by them. They finally believe that once reaching Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, it is impossible to again fall down into the mahat-tattva unless they enter the mahat-tattva for Krishna Lila.

The fact is what they actually believe in and preach to others is nonsense Impersonalism because they do not understand they have a permanent original body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha from where their present nitya-baddha deluded dreaming consciousness originates.

Many advanced Vaishnava’s in various sects’ including some Gaudiya Vaishnavas and even some ISKCON devotees wrongly claim that from a plain or bare sheet of uniform consciousness their individual consciousness grows and comes into existence. Such Impersonal ORIGINS of the soul goes against the teachings of Srila Prabhupada and denies the true facts of ones origins which are from ones marginal Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is always in the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky and can never fall down as previously explained.

 

 

 

One only thinks they are fallen or dreams they are fallen, but actually their svarupa body never falls down. Rather it is ones independent non-Krishna conscious thinking and ones self absorbed ‘dreaming’ thoughts of grandeur that transfer ones awareness of their surroundings to the restricted mahat-tattva as Srila Prabhupada has clearly explained.

 

 

 

This restricted conscious awareness or the so-called dreaming condition of the marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa living entity is called the marginal nitya-baddha sub-consciousness. Mayavadis or Impersonalist cannot understand this simple explanation of what is really going on in ) is the perception of time that we choose to be in; this is an important realization and is the only way to understand the difference between nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha. In genuine reality there is no division because there is no time as we know it within Vaikuntha, only transcendental Lila time. There also is no decay, no birth, disease old age and death, what is there is perpetually there in their full potential which includes all the marginal expansions of Krishna’s/Gods creation.The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many Vaishnava sects who wrongly believe that the jiva/soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will.

The ‘Impersonalist Brahmajyoti-origin believers’ also incorrectly believe the nitya-baddha jiva/souls have never previously seen Krishna however, their Impersonal ORIGIN understanding obstructs them from understanding that long, long, long before entering the Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahma-sayujya or tatastha individual dormant nitya-baddha consciousness, they had ORIGINALLY chose to extend their NON-Krishna conscious thoughts, dreams and desires from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha as the extended bodiless nitya-baddha sub-consciousness or jiva tattatva, that first enters the mahat-tattva creation of the dreaming Maha-Vishnu from its jiva-tatastha conscious transformation. After entereing the mahat-tattva and then impregnated into various ethereal and later biological vessels, going on in this way for millions upon millions of births, the embodied jiva-tattva or nitya-baddha extended consciousness, eventually becomes fed-up with the temporary nature of the mahat-tattva or material existance, with it realtionships, building up a life style, working so hard with family, friends and society only to be force to give it all up at death. Such a soul (jiva-tattva or jiva bhutah) will question the point of even existing if he or she does not meet a pure devotee of Krishna, they therefore want to put and end to their existance all together as Srila Prabhupada explains in the Bhagavad-gita. In this way seeks to reach that Impersonal Brahmajyoti aspect of ones nitya-baddha consciousness that is called the jiva-tatastha.

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti effulgence is simply the creations of the marginal living entities lower-self or nitya-baddha non-devotional consciousnesses that originates from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti and ultimately originate as the fully developed svarupa living entity that ARE the magnificent marginal effulgences emanating/surrounding Krishna. (How this happens will be clearly explained over the next few chapters).

So the correct meaning of the word marginal means one can choose to either be on the side of exploitation (nitya-baddha sub-conscious dreaming position that can only exist in the mahat-tattva) or always remain as ones nitya-siddha-svarupa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka on the side of perpetual dedication and devotion to Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna”.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state, we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but a perishable reality that exists in a temporary state in one corner of the Spiritual Sky, Brahmajyoti or creation”.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -“We forget our actual positionand thus are free to act out our desire and dreams in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non-Krishna conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world but actually we are not fallen, we are simply in a dreaming consciousness that originates from our nitya-siddha body, those dreams are called the nitya-baddha or materially conditioned consciousness”

 

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly explains that in Vaikuntha beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, we are simply dreaming from our nitya-siddha body, those dreams are called the nitya-baddha consciousness which is created by the desires not to be with Krishna.The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the mahat-tattva and the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee of whom some are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless nitya-baddha conscious projections relying on the bodies or vessels provided by Maha-Vishnu".

 

 

We are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu