Is there a conflict between the interests [focus] of ISKCON & Srila Bhaktisiddhanta??

[Guruvani]

 

Purity is the essence in the practice of sadhana bhatki.

 

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had a very large mission with temples and devotees all over the world and to spread his mission he authorized some people to act as ritviks to carry out the formalities of the diksa (initiation) process.

 

But what about situations where the ritvik was found to be engaged in sinful activities? Some devotees who were initiated via the ritvik process via people such as Kirtanananda felt that they had not received the pure connection they were seeking. They felt disheartened because the ritvik was found to be a sinner.

 

In the case of Srilekha devi dasi, who was initiated in Toronto in 1970 (she is one of my wife's best friends), she felt she had not gotten diksa because she got it through a fallen soul. So she asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj for "re-initiation" and he gave it to her.

 

Purity is the essence. Sincerity is everything. If the ritvik is useless, a person will feel this sort of emtiness in their heart and feel the need to find a pure Guru.

 

- Muralidhar das

 

 

There was another Srilekha Devi Dasi initiated in Australia in 1975.

 

Maybe she didn't like being one of two Srilekhas?

 

You don't get "ritvik diksha" through someone.

 

You get diksha directly from Srila Prabhupada and hear the mantras from the tape of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Ritviks don't give diksha.

They officiate over ceremonies where Srila Prabhupada gives diksha.

 

Srila Prabhupada is the guru in a ritvik initiation.

 

The ritviks only approved the initiation on behalf of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Most "ritvik intiations" were not even performed by "ritviks".

 

In many cases the temple president or the GBC man performed the ceremony.

 

The "ritviks" of ISKCON were simply the men that Srila Prabhupada authorized to give final sanction to ISKCON initiations.

 

They didn't give the initiation.

The initiation didn't go through them.

 

The initiation came directly from Srila Prabhupada and the disciple heard the gayatri mantras from the tape of Srila Prabhupada not from the "ritvik".

 

So, if she couldn't understand that, then she shouldn't have asked for the initiation to begin with.

 

Nobody twisted her arm to take ritvik initiation.

 

There are several disciples of Sridhar Maharaja who fell down.

 

Does that mean they felt "empty" and unsatisfied?

 

Formal diska doesn't change anything on our inside.

It is an external social event.

 

Real initiation is about creating faith in someone as Srila Prabhupada did though his books and lectures.

[stonehearted]

How did Srilekha feel she hadn't received diksa? (We're talking about "second intitiation" here, right?) Was it because the devotee who did the fire sacrifice wasn't up to the standard? Did she get the mantras by tape recording? I met her and Sri Govinda, I guess in the late '80s when they had the travel agency in LA, and I was there training to run my gurukula in Hawaii. I found them warm, kind, and dedicated, and I have often wished that I had gotten to know them better.

 

I know that when I got Harinama from Srila Prabhupada, even though we were physically separated (he was in NY, I in Honolulu), his letter said that he was glad to accept me and that he had chanted on my beads), and I never felt a lack of connection. With regard to diksa, I put that off myself for a long time because I didn't feel qualified (and missed a darned good chance when he installed the Panca-tattva in Honolulu, but when I did get it, it was knee to knee in his room in LA. The mantras went from his lips to my ear, and when I chanted them the first time that day, although I had no expectations of any kind (I took it as a duty and privilege, with no further understanding), something perceivable happened as I chanted the Gopala mantra. I just don't buy the assertions of "traditionalists" who say that we have no real connection and our mantras have no power.

[Guruvani]

There were no "ritviks" in 1970.

 

The intiations were performed by temple presidents, brahmanas and sannyasis.

Initiations were recommended by the TP and directly approved by the personal secretary to Srila Prabhupada in 1970.

 

"Ritviks" weren't appointed till 1977.

 

In 1970 Srila Prabhupada was still giving the final approval on most initiations.

[Guruvani]

In fact, the GBC wasn't officially established until July 28, 1970.

Srilekha was initiated on July 19, 1970.

 

So, Srila Prabhupada was still approving all initiations at that time she took initiation.

 

Thus, she rejected Srila Prabhupada, not a ritvik that didn't exist at that time.

[Guest guest]

 

How did Srilekha feel she hadn't received diksa? (We're talking about "second intitiation" here, right?) Was it because the devotee who did the fire sacrifice wasn't up to the standard? Did she get the mantras by tape recording? I met her and Sri Govinda, I guess in the late '80s when they had the travel agency in LA, and I was there training to run my gurukula in Hawaii. I found them warm, kind, and dedicated, and I have often wished that I had gotten to know them better.

 

I know that when I got Harinama from Srila Prabhupada, even though we were physically separated (he was in NY, I in Honolulu), his letter said that he was glad to accept me and that he had chanted on my beads), and I never felt a lack of connection. With regard to diksa, I put that off myself for a long time because I didn't feel qualified (and missed a darned good chance when he installed the Panca-tattva in Honolulu, but when I did get it, it was knee to knee in his room in LA. The mantras went from his lips to my ear, and when I chanted them the first time that day, although I had no expectations of any kind (I took it as a duty and privilege, with no further understanding), something perceivable happened as I chanted the Gopala mantra. I just don't buy the assertions of "traditionalists" who say that we have no real connection and our mantras have no power.

 

 

I think she received both Harinama and Gayatri mantra from Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

 

She told my wife that "lots" of devotees had received diksa from Guru Maharaj like she had. Funny thing is, she and Srigovinda are the only ones I know, and I know most everyone.

 

Srigovinda took sannyasa eighteen months ago. He is preaching in London, helping Bharati Maharaj to set up the new temple. His name is now Nyasi Maharaj.

[Beggar]

 

I think she received both Harinama and Gayatri mantra from Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

 

She told my wife that "lots" of devotees had received diksa from Guru Maharaj like she had. Funny thing is, she and Srigovinda are the only ones I know, and I know most everyone.

 

Srigovinda took sannyasa eighteen months ago. He is preaching in London, helping Bharati Maharaj to set up the new temple. His name is now Nyasi Maharaj.

When I first met Sri Govinda and Sri Lekha during the summer of '72 in Chicago, they both were diksa disciples of Srila Prabhupada. I remember it well because I was newly second intitiated and damn proud of it, the upstart that I was (am). Sri Govinda was the TP and the temple was in an apartment near Lake Michigan, NW of downtown. If she wanted to also hear the mantras from an exalted soul such as Srila Sridhar Maharaja there is no problem. What a wonderful thought.

[Guruvani]

 

If she wanted to also hear the mantras from an exalted soul such as Srila Sridhar Maharaja there is no problem. What a wonderful thought.

 

A wonderful thought that is forbidden by shastric injunction.

 

A wonderful offense is more like it.

[Beggar]

 

A wonderful thought that is forbidden by shastric injunction.

 

A wonderful offense is more like it.

I'm sure if one heard the mantras through a slightly defective tape full of audio distortion as many did then (my experience) it would have been offensive to hear it again directly from the lips of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Ispiration is verboten unless the rules are followed to a "t". Yeah that's it, I'm sure.

[Guruvani]

 

But what about situations where the ritvik was found to be engaged in sinful activities?

 

- Muralidhar das

Sridhar Maharaja also has a few ritviks that bit the dust as well.

 

Did Govinda Maharaja re-initiate all Sridhar Maharaja's disciples that took initiation through ritviks that fell down? (i.e. Akshayananda Swami, Bhakti Sudhir Goswami etc.)

 

Sridhar Maharaja had his own ritviks that initiated disciples on his behalf.

 

Some of them fell down.

 

Were all the devotees they initiated re-initiated by Govinda Maharaja?

[maccoy77]

 

The operative terms are 'expected' and 'may become'.

No guarantee.

 

These are clear proof that Prabhupada never intended a Ritvik system after his departure. Because introducing a Ritvik system means going against the Vedic System.

[Guruvani]

 

I'm sure if one heard the mantras through a slightly defective tape full of audio distortion as many did then (my experience) it would have been offensive to hear it again directly from the lips of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Ispiration is verboten unless the rules are followed to a "t". Yeah that's it, I'm sure.

so, you say that initiations sanctioned directly by Srila Prabhupada were not valid?

I heard the tape, there was no audio distortion.

It was very clear and directly sanctioned by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Sridhar Maharaja re-initiated disciples of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I doubt seriously that Srila Prabhupada would be pleased with either of them.

 

Sridhar Maharaja has a rather large crop of disciples and followers that went down hard.

 

So, there must be a reason for that.

 

There was no magic at SCSM or these big shots wouldn't have gone down.

 

Even Govinda Maharaja left sannyasa and lived family life for many years.

 

So, where is all this magic that you guys are talking about?

 

I don't see it.

[Guruvani]

 

These are clear proof that Prabhupada never intended a Ritvik system after his departure. Because introducing a Ritvik system means going against the Vedic System.

 

the Vedic system is that the Acharyas adjust for time and circumstance.

 

The Vedic system is dynamic.

 

It is not some dogma for fools to use as a livelyhood.

[Guruvani]

 

Allahabad

21st January, 1971

Detroit

My Dear Sri Govinda,

Please accept my blessings and offer the same to your good

wife Sri Lekha Devi Dasi. I am in due receipt of your letter

dated 31st December, 1970 and have noted the contents carefully.

I am so glad to hear how you are strictly following the

regulative principles of devotional service and chanting

regularly 16 rounds daily, mostly before Lord Jagannatha. That

is our strength in spiritual life and will make for your rapid

advancement in Krishna Consciousness. There are three stages of

<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[1]<!--[endif]-->chanting:<!--[if !supportFootnotes]-->[1]<!--[endif]--> offensively; free of offense, or in the liberated

stage; and in full love of Godhead. Simply continue chanting and

any offenses you may be committing, because they are not

intentional, will soon vanish by the grace of Lord Jagannath.

I am glad to see that incense distribution is increasing

and your method of distribution, that is with our literature

prasadam, etc. is very nice. So continue it. I am especially

pleased at how you are distributing our books, particularly to

the schools and universities. This program is so important and

should be increased more and more. We want to flood the world

over with our books. So go on in this way and Krishna will

surely bless you.

I have studied your method for care of funds, etc. So far

as filling out forms is concerned, that is too much botheration.

No one should require money but simply you should see to it that

the goods required are supplied. In materialistic calculation

they think all these things are necessary, but in spiritual life

it is not required. Things should be done as simply as possible.

Presently Karandhar is seeing to keeping our books so that they

meet with government standards. You can correspond with him in

that regard.

Please offer my blessings to the others there. Hoping this

will meet you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[Guruvani]

 

My Dear Sri Govinda,

Please accept my blessings and offer the same to your good

wife Sri Lekha Devi Dasi.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada directly offered his blessings to this person and she felt she needed re-initiated by Sridhar Maharaja?

 

I can't understand why.

[muralidhar_das]

Progress means elimination of lower things and acceptance of the higher truths

 

http://scsmath.com/memories/07a/070303_Srilekha_GPurnima/070303-SrilkehaArticle-GPurnima.htm

[Guest guest]

 

Progress means elimination of lower things and acceptance of the higher truths

 

Do you mean like progressing from saguna brahman to nirguna brahman?

[Guruvani]

 

Progress means elimination of lower things and acceptance of the higher truths

 

http://scsmath.com/memories/07a/070303_Srilekha_GPurnima/070303-SrilkehaArticle-GPurnima.htm

Then she obviously went the wrong way.

She eliminated the higher thing and accepted the lower thing.

[stonehearted]

 

There were no "ritviks" in 1970.

 

The intiations were performed by temple presidents, brahmanas and sannyasis.

Initiations were recommended by the TP and directly approved by the personal secretary to Srila Prabhupada in 1970.

 

"Ritviks" weren't appointed till 1977.

 

In 1970 Srila Prabhupada was still giving the final approval on most initiations.

This is an interesting assertion from someone who has claimed, on this forum, to have been initiated by a ritvik process because someone else did the fire, or because he heard the mantras by tape. I don't have the time to track down the posts, but maybe someone else can.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave personal approval for initiations for a couple of years after, sometimes delegating the choosing of names and even chanting on the beads. These devotees were not considered ritviks, but were simply carrying out a practical function to facilitate Srila Prabhupada's mercy. I did hear of one Godbrother, though, who claimed after leaving that devotees initiated after a certain date were his disciples and that only the first three or so initiated at that temple were Prabhupada's disciples. I can tell you, though, that none of those disciples, as much as they may have respected the TP when he was acting properly, ever had such a conception. All were told by Srila Prabhupada, either personally or by letter, that he had accepted them. The TP has since dropped off the face of the earth. He no longer exists--never died, met any tragic anything. Just ceased to exist. I have my ideas . . .

[stonehearted]

 

In the case of Srilekha devi dasi, who was initiated in Toronto in 1970 (she is one of my wife's best friends), she felt she had not gotten diksa because she got it through a fallen soul. So she asked Srila Sridhar Maharaj for "re-initiation" and he gave it to her.

So far, all I've seen is folks rushing to dump on Srilekha or defend her. I was hoping for an answer to my questions, which were asked to elicit information, not to provoke.

[Beggar]

Just because Sri Lekha heard the mantras again from Srila Sridhar Maharaja does't mean that she's reinitiated. Why would you think that diksa would be emphasized by one who preached the conception of the siksa guru parampara in the line of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur. This is the same regurgitated hysteria that went around in the early 1980's. Guruvani, how could you not know better?

[Guest guest]

 

How did Srilekha feel she hadn't received diksa? (We're talking about "second intitiation" here, right?) Was it because the devotee who did the fire sacrifice wasn't up to the standard? Did she get the mantras by tape recording? I met her and Sri Govinda, I guess in the late '80s when they had the travel agency in LA, and I was there training to run my gurukula in Hawaii. I found them warm, kind, and dedicated, and I have often wished that I had gotten to know them better.

 

I know that when I got Harinama from Srila Prabhupada, even though we were physically separated (he was in NY, I in Honolulu), his letter said that he was glad to accept me and that he had chanted on my beads), and I never felt a lack of connection. With regard to diksa, I put that off myself for a long time because I didn't feel qualified (and missed a darned good chance when he installed the Panca-tattva in Honolulu, but when I did get it, it was knee to knee in his room in LA. The mantras went from his lips to my ear, and when I chanted them the first time that day, although I had no expectations of any kind (I took it as a duty and privilege, with no further understanding), something perceivable happened as I chanted the Gopala mantra. I just don't buy the assertions of "traditionalists" who say that we have no real connection and our mantras have no power.

 

One of my friends just wrote me an email and said Srilekha didi only took diksa mantra (not harinama) from Gurumaharaj. She had received the diksa mantras from somebody who we might say was "not a transparent via-medium".

 

You would need to be pretty messed up to start abusing Srilekha didi, considering the fact that she has dedicated her entire life to service. If a man who never does any service and never associates with advanced devotees were to criticize her, well, so what?

 

Srilekha's children are all serious, active devotees. Her husband is a sannyasi engaged in 24 hour service preaching the message of Sri Chaitanya.

 

Srilekha is also one of the sweetest people who you could ever meet. If the ritviks cannot tolerate that she wanted to have a more personal, direct connection with Reality than what their impersonal book-guru philosophy promotes, so what?

 

- Muralidhar das

[stonehearted]

Thanks for that, Muralidhar. I'm not sure who she means when she refers to hearing the mantras originally, but that's no real matter. I don't really need to know. It's just a little confusing, considering her seniority. I guess I would have assumed that she got diksa from Srila Prabhupada, especially since she and her husband were always responsible devotees. Even when they had the business in LA, they were at the temple a lot.

 

What can we do if some folks want to criticize her? People criticize me, and there will be a lot more of that fairly soon, based on the path my life is taking.

 

I find Nyasi Maharaja and Srilekha's lives particularly interesting because it seems that so few in our line have taken sannyasa after long, happy, successful marriages. Almost all the sannyasis I know of either had marriages that didn't work or were never married since their commitment to Krishna consciousness. It looks, however, as though they were married even longer than my wife and I have been. I find that very encouraging. We need more such examples in all missions.

[Beggar]

 

Srilekha is also one of the sweetest people who you could ever meet. If the ritviks cannot tolerate that she wanted to have a more personal, direct connection with Reality than what their impersonal book-guru philosophy promotes, so what?

- Muralidhar das

Either way if the heart connection is there, then the formal connection is of less importance. After all she heard the mantras from Srila Sridhar Maharaja yet also has a deep heart connection with Srila Govinda Maharaja. No one can legislate these things.

[krsna]

 

Report from the parallel lines of authority committee

<!-- end .post-top --><!-- the main section of the post goes here -->By Badrinarayan dasa

 

1. What is the goal of your committee?:

 

Our committee deals with the situation we often find in ISKCON where there are two lines of authority in ISKCON: the initiating spiritual masters and GBC body/GBC member/Temple President system created by Srila Prabhupada.

Our goal is help craft a shared, supportive, and shastrically sound system for guiding devotees in ISKCON. Rather than sometimes working at cross purposes, the aim is to have a system that respects, guides, and nutures the devotees in general, as well as all those senior devotees who give siksha and diksa in ISKCON.

One of the elements in this formula is having open and transparent standards for all of our leaders and a clear system of accountability and assessment.

 

2. What successes are you hoping for?:

 

Well, how successful we are only time will tell. These are sensitive issues that have torn apart other institutions. One success is the fact that we are talking about it at all. Srila Prabhupada started something revolutionary; a multi-guru system all serving under a govering body. How that all works out so that the disciples, the gurus, temple presidents, sannyasis, and congregation are protected and enlivened, while keeping Srila Prabhupada central as our founder-acharya, for generations to come, is no easy task.

 

3. What are the challenges facing your committee:

Let’s take just one of the questions on the table for example: “Who delivers the jiva?” It is not just the diksha guru and everyone else is chopped cabbage. Whoever is giving genuine siksha is essential to the process. There is the mercy of the holy name, the Deities, sadhusanga in general—there are so many factors. How to develop a mature society that reflects all these dynamics?

 

4. How do you see this translating into the lives of the devotees?

We are working towards a future where all our gurus are spiritually strong, simple, and happy. A world where disciples are making solid spiritual advancement and feeling enlivened. We are working towards an ISKCON with increased cooperative spirit, focus on the spiritual care and growth of the individual members, and where the preaching work is growing expotentially. After all, Srila Prabhupada said that his nature was that he could not think small. He intended ISKCON to be a powerful means to change the world and it is our sacred duty to deliver on his promise and vision.

 

5. How can devotees participate and contribute in this?

Give us some time, your prayers, and suggestions. We are working on training manuals, guide books, philosophical support papers, retreats, and seminars. I believe that the goal is eventually to have a website set up with the work of all the GBC’s strategic planning committees work posted there but in the mean time devotees can contact our committee chair, Prahladananda Maharaja at Prahladananda.Swami@pamho.net.

Thank you for asking and Hare Krishna.

[Guest guest]

 

I'm sure if one heard the mantras through a slightly defective tape full of audio distortion as many did then (my experience) it would have been offensive to hear it again directly from the lips of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Ispiration is verboten unless the rules are followed to a "t". Yeah that's it, I'm sure.

 

The idea of tape Gayatri initiations in Iskcon was born out of sheer neccessity, not siddhanta. I doubt very much that this is an acceptable way to perform diksa under normal circumstances. Yet, Krsna is all powerfull and the master of all mystics so if He wants, He can turn a tape recorded material vibration into sabda brahman.

 

I have known Sri Govinda and Srilekha quite well. They were both very, very fixed devotees leading exemplary lives. Whatever they did in their lives was done out of respect for true GV siddhanta.

 

Where is Nyasi Maharaja now? I would like to get in touch with him. I know of a very good preaching field I would like to introduce him to. I just got back from there. Devotees are eager to hear from sannyasis who actually fulfilled their householder obligations, not simply dumped their wives and kids to become jet-lag professional Bhagavatam reciters in order to lead comfortable material lives.