Is there a conflict between the interests [focus] of ISKCON & Srila Bhaktisiddhanta??

[Guruvani]

 

This is an interesting assertion from someone who has claimed, on this forum, to have been initiated by a ritvik process because someone else did the fire, or because he heard the mantras by tape. I don't have the time to track down the posts, but maybe someone else can.

 

Srila Prabhupada gave personal approval for initiations for a couple of years after, sometimes delegating the choosing of names and even chanting on the beads. These devotees were not considered ritviks, but were simply carrying out a practical function to facilitate Srila Prabhupada's mercy. I did hear of one Godbrother, though, who claimed after leaving that devotees initiated after a certain date were his disciples and that only the first three or so initiated at that temple were Prabhupada's disciples. I can tell you, though, that none of those disciples, as much as they may have respected the TP when he was acting properly, ever had such a conception. All were told by Srila Prabhupada, either personally or by letter, that he had accepted them. The TP has since dropped off the face of the earth. He no longer exists--never died, met any tragic anything. Just ceased to exist. I have my ideas . . .

 

 

I got my second initiation "brahman thread" after the ritviks had been appointed. Because second initiation is the one they call "diksha" I therefore tell that I was initiated via the ritvik system.

 

After Srila Prabhupada appointed the ritviks there were actually very few initiations in ISKCON. I got the brahman initiation just a few weeks before Srila Prabhupada passed. Jayathirtha was one of the few ritviks who actually performed ritvik initiations after the ritviks were appointed.

 

But actually I personally could care less if I am initiated or not initiated.

It's just a formality.

 

If i ever felt a need to be re-initiated it certainly wouldn't be in ISKCON or SCSMath.

 

If I lost faith in something it would be the whole Saraswata system, not just what Srila Prabhupada established in ISKCON.

 

Really, if one is going to cut and make new beginnings it would start with Bhaktivinode Thakur himself who made a major departure from "traditional" Gaudiya thinking with such books as Sri Krishna Samhita etc.

[Guruvani]

oh, yeah, Bhaktivinode wrote Sri Krishna Samhita before he he was ever "initiated" by Vipina Bihari Goswami or connected with Jagannatha das Babaji.

 

So, he was commenting on Srimad Bhagavatam before he was even initiated.

 

Apparently, at the time of writing Sri Krishna Samhita, Bhaktivinode did not place absolute value on formal initiation.

[krsna]

 

Thanks for that, Muralidhar. I'm not sure who she means when she refers to hearing the mantras originally, but that's no real matter. I don't really need to know. It's just a little confusing, considering her seniority. I guess I would have assumed that she got diksa from Srila Prabhupada, especially since she and her husband were always responsible devotees. Even when they had the business in LA, they were at the temple a lot.

 

What can we do if some folks want to criticize her? People criticize me, and there will be a lot more of that fairly soon, based on the path my life is taking.

 

I find Nyasi Maharaja and Srilekha's lives particularly interesting because it seems that so few in our line have taken sannyasa after long, happy, successful marriages. Almost all the sannyasis I know of either had marriages that didn't work or were never married since their commitment to Krishna consciousness. It looks, however, as though they were married even longer than my wife and I have been. I find that very encouraging. We need more such examples in all missions.

 

Will Sri Babhru Prabhu be taking sannyasa soon?

 

To expand the KRSNA Conscious family of souls?

 

Leaving your family to embrace all souls of KRSNA's family?

[stonehearted]

 

I got my second initiation "brahman thread" after the ritviks had been appointed. Because second initiation is the one they call "diksha" I therefore tell that I was initiated via the ritvik system.

Okay-that's clearer. Thanks.

[stonehearted]

 

oh, yeah, Bhaktivinode wrote Sri Krishna Samhita before he he was ever "initiated" by Vipina Bihari Goswami or connected with Jagannatha das Babaji.

 

So, he was commenting on Srimad Bhagavatam before he was even initiated.

 

Apparently, at the time of writing Sri Krishna Samhita, Bhaktivinode did not place absolute value on formal initiation.

Actually, he explained that he hadn't yet found anyone in whom he had the absolute faith one must have in the spiritual master. So it's not so much that he didn't place such value on initiation as that he placed such strong value that he insisted on doing it right.

[Guruvani]

 

Actually, he explained that he hadn't yet found anyone in whom he had the absolute faith one must have in the spiritual master. So it's not so much that he didn't place such value on initiation as that he placed such strong value that he insisted on doing it right.

 

Well, his son Bimala Prasada didn't consider that taking diksha from Vipina Bihari Goswami was the right choice.

Otherwise, how could Bimala Prasad be so against the diksha guru of Bhaktivinode Thakur?

 

Bimala Prasad considered that Bhaktivinode was superior to his diksha guru.

 

So, how is that "doing it right"?

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

So, how is that "doing it right"?

 

You think he did it wrong? He's not infallable?

[Guruvani]

 

You think he did it wrong? He's not infallable?

According to the Saraswata school he apparently took diksha from the wrong guy.

The Saraswatas don't even include the diksha guru of Bhaktivinode in the parampara.

 

................................. go figure.

[stonehearted]

 

Well, his son Bimala Prasada didn't consider that taking diksha from Vipina Bihari Goswami was the right choice.

Otherwise, how could Bimala Prasad be so against the diksha guru of Bhaktivinode Thakur?

 

Bimala Prasad considered that Bhaktivinode was superior to his diksha guru.

 

So, how is that "doing it right"?

You'd have to ask him. He's the one who explained that he hadn't found anyone in whom he could have that kind of faith until he met Bipin-bihari Goswami. Things changed in subsequent years. Frankly, it's none of my business beyond that.

 

Regardless of the emphasis we place on siksa in parampara, all the links in the parampara accepted diksa from someone else. The details of their relationships with their gurus is their business, not ours.

[stonehearted]

 

Will Sri Babhru Prabhu be taking sannyasa soon?

 

To expand the KRSNA Conscious family of souls?

 

Leaving your family to embrace all souls of KRSNA's family?

Who knows? Krishna's a clever fellow. He can make even the impossible happen.

 

In the meantime, let's all keep chanting, and try not to get too carried away by wild speculation.

[Guruvani]

 

Regardless of the emphasis we place on siksa in parampara, all the links in the parampara accepted diksa from someone else. The details of their relationships with their gurus is their business, not ours.

 

That is a bit of a smoke screen.

 

If the Saraswatas don't recognize the diksha guru of Bhaktivinode and instead list the siksha guru as the line of parampara, that appears to make a very strong statement about all this formal diksha biz.

 

Bhaktivinode is not even in the Saraswata parampara as far as the diksha like goes, unless you accept some tale that Bhaktivinode initiated Gaura-kisora das Babaji.

 

If we follow the diksha concept of parampara, then Bhaktivinode is not in the ISKCON parampara or any Saraswata parampara.

[Guruvani]

If we follow the diksha guru system, then Vipina Bihari Goswami is in the Saraswata parampara.

 

Can anyone please show me anywhere that Srila Saraswati Thakur ever included Vipina Bihari Goswami in the parampara?

[stonehearted]

 

That is a bit of a smoke screen.

If you say so. What do you think I'm trying to obscure?

 

 

If the Saraswatas don't recognize the diksha guru of Bhaktivinode and instead list the siksha guru as the line of parampara, that appears to make a very strong statement about all this formal diksha biz.

The fact is that we don't concern ourselves with him at all, unless we want to make some kind of kerfuffle.

 

 

Bhaktivinode is not even in the Saraswata parampara as far as the diksha like goes, unless you accept some tale that Bhaktivinode initiated Gaura-kisora das Babaji.

I"ve never heard that, either. We accept that Babaji Maharaja accepted Bhaktivinoda Thakura as a siksa guru. That's all.

 

 

If we follow the diksha concept of parampara, then Bhaktivinode is not in the ISKCON parampara or any Saraswata parampara.

Well, who here does? It's a staw-man argument, as far as I can see. I sure haven't argued for any such thing. Heck, I don't argue the issue at all. What's the point? All I've ever done is point out how to strengthen our understanding of what our gurus expect. And Lord Chaitanya's instructions to Sanatana Goswami on the process of devotiona service begin with taking shelter of a spiritual master, taking insruction and diksa (sorry--His word, not mine) from him (or her?) along with other things, serve him faithfully and intimately, and follow the path set by the sadhus.

 

No one here that I can remember has ever said that we need to trace out anyone's line by diksa exclusively. Why we don't has been explained elaborately by both Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja. I think everyone here accepts that. All I've said is that Lord Chaitanya builds spiritual progress on the submission that should be inherent in diksa, and that everyone in our line was initiated by someone, whether it was the predecessor we recognize or not.

[stonehearted]

 

If we follow the diksha guru system, then Vipina Bihari Goswami is in the Saraswata parampara.

 

Can anyone please show me anywhere that Srila Saraswati Thakur ever included Vipina Bihari Goswami in the parampara?

We don't, so no one will.

 

Maybe you need to go for a japa walk.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Where is Nyasi Maharaja now? I would like to get in touch with him. I know of a very good preaching field I would like to introduce him to. I just got back from there. Devotees are eager to hear from sannyasis who actually fulfilled their householder obligations, not simply dumped their wives and kids to become jet-lag professional Bhagavatam reciters in order to lead comfortable material lives.

 

He is in London

 

Gurudev is on his way to London via Italy and Russia.

 

Bharati Maharaj, the leader of the Math in London, is opening a new large temple right in the middle of the city in London and Gurudev is going there for the opening.

 

Nyasi Maharaj has a PhD in philsophy from Harvard (before he knew about Krishna). He is an excellent speaker.

 

ys, Muralidhar

[muralidhar_das]

Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakura is not the creator of the concept of a siksa-guru-parampara. Even Sankaracharya's sampradaya is a siksa guru parampara, as is the parampara of Madvacarya.

 

Someone with scanty knowledge of Gaudiya Vaishnava history, someone who had been infected by the philosophy of the jati-goswami followers, might think Saraswati Thakur was the origin. But this point of view is pure foolishness.

 

In Chaitanya Charitamrta we find that Srila Krishnadasa Kaviraja Goswami lists Raghunatha dasa Goswami as a disciple of his siksa-guru Sri Svarupa Damodara. His siksa guru. The siksa guru connection is given precedence over the diksa line of succession going from Advaita Acharya to Yadunandana Acharya to Raghunanatha das.

 

Moreover, Krishnadas Kaviraj always prays to Rupa-Raghunatha in CC, but never mentions the name of his diksa guru.

 

Baladeva Vidyabusana also presented the Parampara of Sri Chaitanya as a siksa guru parampara:

 

sri krsna brahma devarsi, badarayana samjnakan, sri madhva sri padmanabha, sriman nrhari madhavan aksobhya jaya-tirtha, sri jnanasindhu dayanidhi, sri vidyanidhi rajendra, jayadharma kramadvayam purusottama brahmanya, vyasa-tirthams ca samstumah, tato laksmipatim sriman, madhavendran ca bhaktitah tac-chisyan srisvaradvaita, nityanandan-jagat-gurun devam-isvara-sisyam-sri, caitanyan ca bhajamahe

 

TRANSLATION:

Sri Krishna's disciple was Brahma, whose disciple was the sage of the demigods, Narada. His disciple was Badarayana (Vyasa) whose disciple was Madhva. His disciple was Padmanabha, whose disciple was Nrihari. His disciple was Madhva whose disciple was Aksobhya, whose disciple was Jaya Tirtha. His disciple was Jnanasindhu, whose disciple was Dayanidhi. His disciple was Vidyanidhi whose disciple was Jayadharma. His disciple was Purusottama and his disciple was Brahmanya whose disciple was Vyasa Tirtha. His disciple was Laksmipati and his disciple was Madhavendra whose disciples were Isvara, Advaita and Nityananda the guru of the whole world. Another of his disciples was Sri Chaitanya who we offer our respects to.

- (from Prameya Ratnavali, by Baladeva Vidyabhushana)

 

The fact is Padmanabha Tirtha, Nrihari Tirtha, Madhava Tirtha and Aksobhya Tirtha were all diksha (initiated) disciples of Madhva. They were not successive links in the diksha chain. Yet Baladeva Vidyabhushana states they were disciples of each other. These are all indisputable siksha links; Padmanabha gave siksa (instruction) to Nrihari, Nrihari instucted Madhava, etc.

 

It is also a fact that in the Tattvavada Sampradaya (Madvacarya's sampradaya) they don't even get diksa at all in order to become members of the tradition. Their parampara is a siksa guru parampara and they do not chant the mantra that Madhavendra Puri gave to Ishwara Puri, Advaitacharya, Nityananda, Pundarika Vidyanihi (the Krishnaya govindaya gopijanaballabhaya mantra which is described in detail in the Gopala Tapani Upanishad).

 

But Baladeva has said that our Gaudiya Sampradaya is connected to that sampradaya, even though Mahaprabhu himself when visiting the Tattvavadis at Udupi made the point that he was not in their Sampradaya. Historically there was a link to Madva, but in a spiritual sense Mahapabhu was not following Madva he was following the new revelation that came through Madhavendra Puri.

 

In regard to Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur's parampara, my Guru Maharaj wrote:

 

 

sri-gauranumatam svarupa-viditam rupagrajenadrtam

rupadyaih parivesitam raghu-ganair asvaditam sevitam

jivadyair abhiraksitam suka-siva-brahmadi-sammanitam

sri-radha-pada-sevanamrtam aho tad datum iso bhavan

 

“What was sanctioned by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu by His descent, was intimately known only to Sri Svarupa Damodara Gosvami. Sanatana Gosvami, the elder brother of Sri Rupa Gosvami, was attentive to that divine truth, and Rupa Gosvami himself served that very thing with his own hands to the devotees. Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami tasted its sweetness and also added something of his own to its flavor. (He was assisted in doing so by Raghunatha Bhatta Gosvami and Gopala Bhatta Gosvami.) That which was distributed and tasted by Raghunatha Dasa was protected by Sri Jiva Gosvami, who lent support to its divinity with scriptural evidence. The taste of that divine truth is aspired after by Sri Sukadeva Gosvami, Lord Siva, and Lord Brahma who regard it from a little distance with the highest respect. What is that inconceivable ambrosia? The sublime sweet nectar of mellows relished in the service of Srimati Radharani’s holy lotus feet. O Bhaktivinoda Thakura, within this world, you fully possess the ability to give us that extraordinary nectar.”

 

[Guruvani]

 

Moreover, Krishnadas Kaviraj always prays to Rupa-Raghunatha in CC, but never mentions the name of his diksa guru.

 

According to Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.40

 

nityānanda-rāya — prabhura svarūpa-prakāśa

tāńra pāda-padma vando yāńra muñi dāsa

 

SYNONYMS

nityānanda-rāya — Lord Nityānanda; prabhura — of the Supreme Lord; sva-rūpa-prakāśa — personal manifestation; tāńra — of Him; pāda-padma — unto the lotus feet; vando — I offer respectful obeisances; yāńra — of whom; muñi — I am; dāsa — the servant.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Śrīla Nityānanda Rāma is the plenary manifestation of the Lord, and I have been initiated by Him. I therefore offer my respectful obeisances unto His lotus feet.

 

 

This should be self-explanatory, but I know that there are those who disagree with this conception.

[muralidhar_das]

... whatever

[Guruvani]

 

... whatever

 

yāńra — of whom; muñi — I am; dāsa — the servant.

 

Sounds like guru and disciple to me.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Nyasi Maharaj has a PhD in philsophy from Harvard (before he knew about Krishna). He is an excellent speaker.

 

ys, Muralidhar

 

He got his PhD from Harvard Divinity School around fifteen years ago. When he joined Iskcon he had dropped out of undergraduate school.

[Guest guest]

Prabhu Muralidhar is the most learned western disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Too bad he is not traveling to different continents and preaching like Prabhu Srutasrava.

[Guruvani]

 

Prabhu Muralidhar is the most learned western disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Too bad he is not traveling to different continents and preaching like Prabhu Srutasrava.

you are obviously way out of the loop.

 

There are many senior men and sannyasis that you obviously don't know about.

 

Muralidhara is still raising young children.

 

He is exactly where he needs to be at home taking care of his children and his wife.

 

Srutasrava is quite a bit older than Muralidhar and his kids are grown.

[Guruvani]

anybody who responds to the conclusions of Srila Prabhupada with an arrogant "whatever" is not ready to be a world preacher by any stretch of the imagination.

 

some of these upstarts think they actually know better than Srila Prabhupada.

 

such arrogance is absolutely appalling.

[Guruvani]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.44

 

yadyapi āmāra guru — caitanyera dāsa

tathāpi jāniye āmi tāńhāra prakāśa

 

SYNONYMS

yadyapi — even though; āmāra — my; guru — spiritual master; caitanyera — of Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu; dāsa — the servitor; tathāpi — still; jāniye — know; āmi — I; tāńhāra — of the Lord; prakāśa — direct manifestation.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Although I know that my spiritual master is a servitor of Śrī Caitanya, I know Him also as a plenary manifestation of the Lord.

 

 

Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami clearly says here that his spiritual master is a plenary manifestation of Sri Chaitanya. ( prakāśa — direct manifestation.)

 

That of course is indicating Lord Nityananda.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Prabhu Muralidhar is the most learned western disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. Too bad he is not traveling to different continents and preaching like Prabhu Srutasrava.

I am (in)famous for the controversial things I have said. Not just on the internet but everywhere I go. In a Vaishnava society such as Sri Chaitanya Saraswat Math a person like me will never get given any "position" or importance.

 

Still, I will always have a home there. Dogs like me and my best friends (aravinda also said he wants to be Gurudev's dog), we can freely wander in from the street whenever we want. We can go and lie down in the dust next to Haricharan Prabhu or Aranya Maharaj and they will smile at us. Haricharan will pat me on the head, just like he has done before now, and for me that is better than any other goal of life.