Devotion Contaminated by Reason?

[Guruvani]

In Sri Guru and His Grace, Srila Sridhar Maharaja says in ch. 14.

 

 

In his conversation with Ramananda Raya, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

rejected devotion contaminated with reason. He said, eho bahya age

kaha ara, "This is superficial; go further." Mahaprabhu accepted that

real bhakti begins from the stage of pure devotion, unmixed with

reason.

This put me to thinking.......

 

Immediately, the "Moon is further than the Sun" controversy came to mind.

 

It hit me that "hey, maybe that is what this is really all about?"

 

Maybe the "Moon is further than the Sun" is a lesson that Srila Prabhupada taught and a test he gave to seperate pure devotees from devotees whose devotion is mixed with reason.

 

Reason tells us that, in the face of the scientific information available to all us people of the modern age, the Moon is in fact NOT further than the Sun.

 

The Sun is further than the Moon according to science.

 

But, this "Moon is further than the Sun" is really a great challenge and a great test that in fact forces the disciples of Srila Prabhupada to reject devotional service mixed with reason and scientific knowledge and embrace a very rich form of devotion that has to rise above the realm of reason to the realm of the inconceivable and non-calculative.

 

It is a fact that faith contaminated by scholarship and mundane scientific knowledge is a form of mixed devotion.

 

Devotees of Krishna are required to embrace the infinite and the inconceivable. If we cling to scientific conceptions at the cost of scriptural chastity, then we have failed to achieve unmixed devotion.

 

Srila Prabhupada was not prepared to accept this form of devotion mixed with reason.

He faithfully and loyally adhered to the Bhagavat conceptions and rejected this devotion mixed with scientific knowledge.

 

That is indeed a marvelous and amazing quality considering that Srila Prabhupada was in fact a chemist in his family life and not at all sheltered from modern scientific thinkers.

 

Knowing well that most everybody in the world believed that NASA landed men on the Moon, Srila Prabhupada deliberately challenged that scientific community and rejected their claims that they landed on the Moon on the basis of the Bhagavatam version that the Moon is further than the Sun.

 

So Srila Prabhupada drew a line in the sand to seperate mixed devotion from devotion uncomtaminated by reason.

 

Pure devotion uncontaminated by reason is the symbol of Vrindavan.

 

All those who cherish the ideal of Vrindavan would do well to do as Srila Prabhupada did and reject this devotion contaminated by reason.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

All those who cherish the ideal of Vrindavan would do well to do as Srila Prabhupada did and reject this devotion contaminated by reason.

Reason is yet another tool for preaching/distribution/audarya. By itself, it has no value.

 

You yourself have pointed out that Srila Prabhupada called the process of devotion a scientific one.

 

As the realized acharyas must remind us (for I am so covered-over), the ideal is unalloyed devotion. However, we are also cautioned against imitating that devotion artificially.

 

Our devotion may be mixed. Does that mean we abandon our pursuit of the pure devotion?

 

By perseverance and Sri Guru's Grace, our hearts become purified as do our motivations.

 

In the meanwhile, as has been discussed recently on this forum, we are advised to dovetail our natural inclinations as possible for service.

 

Certainly, even to "dovetail" involves a degree of selfish interest. It is not pure devotion. Pure devotion is to put the interest of the Beloved above all others.

 

So, even Srila Prabhupada, who is supremely situated, assumed the guise of logic and reason in his presentation of the sweetest nectar.

 

Call science and reason the vegetable gelatin capsule in which to deliver the medicine to those who cannot take it directly.

 

Isn't it?

[Guruvani]

If the guru says the rope is a snake, then the rope is a snake.

 

If the guru says the snake is a rope, then the snake is a rope.

 

Whenever reason comes to interfere between us and our spiritual master, then we should abandon reason and follow the path of faith.

 

Because at the time of death, it is our faith that will be tested.

 

Whether or not the Moon is further than the Sun doesn't make any difference at the time of death.

 

What makes the difference come judgement day will be our faith in our spiritual master and in Krishna.

 

At that point, it won't help us even if the Moon is not further than the Sun.

 

If we reject that the Moon is further than the Sun, but still tell people that God was a pig who lifted Earth up out of the filthy nether regions of the universe, do you think they will buy that?

 

What part of the Bhagavatam is not fantastic?

 

Are we going to pick and choose what part of the fantastic that we accept and what part we reject?

 

Then where does that leave us?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

The more whole-heartedly we embrace our medicine, the more efficacious will be the treatment.

 

You are so very correct.

 

Also, as has been discussed frequently here, we have the example of Thakur Bhaktivinoda and the oft-discussed "Sri Krishna Samhita".

 

Of course, it's also worthy to note the context of the publication of that book as has been pointed out by the historically-minded scholars amongst us. It serves a particular purpose, but it is not widely distributed.

 

Rather, we advised to hear Srimad Bhagavatam from a pure soul who can harmonize everything.

 

 

If the guru says the rope is a snake, then the rope is a snake.

 

If the guru says the snake is a rope, then the snake is a rope.

 

Whenever reason comes to interfere between us and our spiritual master, then we should abandon reason and follow the path of faith.

 

Because at the time of death, it is our faith that will be tested.

 

Whether or not the Moon is further than the Sun doesn't make any difference at the time of death.

 

What makes the difference come judgement day will be our faith in our spiritual master and in Krishna.

 

At that point, it won't help us even if the Moon is not further than the Sun.

 

If we reject that the Moon is further than the Sun, but still tell people that God was a pig who lifted Earth up out of the filthy nether regions of the universe, do you think they will buy that?

 

What part of the Bhagavatam is not fantastic?

 

Are we going to pick and choose what part of the fantastic that we accept and what part we reject?

 

Then where does that leave us?

[Guest guest]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj told me personally that there is a higher level of understanding beyond this type of idea that if the guru says the rope is a snake, then the rope is a snake.

 

Blind faith is what unintelligent people like to cling onto. For people who want everything to be simple, blind faith is appealing.

 

For people who can see that the facts of life are more complex than what we can understand with our puppy brains, life has extra lessons to teach them besides the things the ostriches with their heads in the sand are able to see.

 

Blind faith is a comfort.

 

But intelligent people attain wisdom.

[theist]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj told me personally that there is a higher level of understanding beyond this type of idea that if the guru says the rope is a snake, then the rope is a snake.

 

Blind faith is what unintelligent people like to cling onto. For people who want everything to be simple, blind faith is appealing.

 

For people who can see that the facts of life are more complex than what we can understand with our puppy brains, life has extra lessons to teach them besides the things the ostriches with their heads in the sand are able to see.

Blind faith is a comfort.

But intelligent people attain wisdom.

[Guruvani]

 

 

Blind faith is a comfort.

 

But intelligent people attain wisdom.

 

so, now scientific knowledge enjoys the status of being "wisdom"?

[Guest guest]

Wisdom is scientific knowledge. Blind faith is in the realm of inquisitiveness. We have to define science here. That which is tested and confirmed, without bias.

 

Unfortunately, the so-called science we hear about is contaminated, not by reason, but by the influence of this age. In other words, this pill will cure the disease, and is confirmed by the AMA, approved by FDA. But the process for science, actually proving the effectiveness of the pill, is thwarted by the interests of non-scientist whose existance is only valid if the agencies (AMA, FDA, USDA, ad nauseum) are INFLUENCED to confirm scientific conclusions, often flawed to the point of absurdity.

 

Actual wisdom means transcendence of the lower natured means of attaining the truth. The misery of ignorance, the poverty of ignorance, even the ignorance of speculating on the truth. It is stated that these four types come to inquire into the actual nature of the self, those in poverty, those in misery, those who are interested and those who are wise. The three lower divisions, they will no longer be concerned with the TRUE once their needs are met, so they, too, must become wise alongside with their misery, poverty and inquisitiveness. One who is happy does not look for happiness. Rich men do not even use money, do not even touch it. The seeker becomes known as a holy one.

 

But the wise, now there is a different drummer. Steady. Knows the difference in that which dies and that which dont. Science is his tool, not the science of the corporation, the approving agencies, the funding machine.

 

Science means knowing that the whole concept of distance as defined by the calculators of kali yuga is quite relative, as proven by the radical theoretical physicists. One who disrespects the false science of this world are the actual scientists, which is why Srila Prabhupada becomes the hero of the wise.

 

The moon and the sun, who cares how far they are. You planning your fuel consumption needs for your next summer vacation? Why must the moon be closer, and whose miles are we using, the first grade ruler teacher or the dimensional miles of Nicolai Tesla? The wise person can defeat them all, using real science as opposed to the science of kali yuga, no depth.

 

All glories to the science of the wise, ys, mahaksadasa

 

ps Its all in the math, eh, gHari. Happy Canada Day, broh, wish I were dere, eh?

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj told me personally ........

Sridhar Maharaja told me personally not to believe people who say that Sridhar Maharaja told them something that he didn't tell everyone.

 

Personal accounts might be real, but they can never be used as evidence when we are trying to establish the teachings of an acharya.

 

Hearsay...... that is what "Sridhar Maharaja told me personally" amounts to.

 

If it is not documented, then it just goes in one ear and out the other and doesn't even make a pit stop.

 

Its like the ol' "Prabhupada said" syndrome when what Prabhupada said can't be confirmed with the books or tapes.

 

So, please ............ there has got to be something verifiable that you can use besides "Sridhar Maharaja told me".

[Guest guest]

Theres always a but (hope its not me). As evidence, such things crumble. This never negates the fact thyat stuff was personally told by guru to disciple, and outside the realm of others.

 

That saide, If guru tells me something confidentially, and I lay it down trying to produce evidence, did I not betray the confidentiality?

 

I do that now and then. I post stuff that doesnt have a coresponding veda-base archive numbered reference. But such stuff I reveal is common knowledge stuff that has many sources, not just my own, so there3 is no betrayal of confidence. In other words, in evidence production, some facts can be stipulated to without the neede to produce incessant documentation, a tool used by many for obsfucationary purpose.

 

So, I hate "prabupada said-ers" as much as "out-of-context-ers". But I accept personal comments if they are widespread enough to be stipulated to in the course of any discussion.

 

Point well taken, guruvani.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

Having knowledge of spontaneous devotion is one thing.

 

But it is not to be cheaply imitated. To imitate is the realm of the sahajiya's.

 

Knowing not to be an imitationist and acting in accordance to one's internal level with an eye towards spontaneous devotion, is the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

[Guruvani]

It's obvious that Srila Prabhupada in his Bhagavatam was not willing to subvert the Bhagavat cosmology with the claims of NASA.

 

To follow that line of thinking of Srila Prabhupada to reject scientific claims that contradict the Vedic version, has nothing to do with "spontaneous devotion" as far as I can see.

 

According to the Vedic version the Moon is a heavenly planet and the Moon God is the founder of the Soma Dynasty.

 

It's obvious that the astronuts from NASA did not enter into the "Moon" planet proper as per the Vedic conception of the Moon as being a heavenly planet.

 

So, whatever the mystery is, apparently none of us have figured it out.

 

But, one thing that Srila Prabhupada was right about was that NASA did not land a man on the "Moon" that we know as a heavenly planet.

 

So, the astronuts did NOT land on the heavenly Moon that is mentioned in Vedic scriptures.

 

It's nothing to do with spontaneous devotion to understand that.

 

It is a scientific fact, that the astronuts did NOT land on the heavenly planet we know as the Moon.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

It is a scientific fact, that the astronuts did NOT land on the heavenly planet we know as the Moon.

This was not Sridhar Maharaja's conception. His idea was that Sukadeva Goswami was given the vision of the universe as he described in the Bhagavatam due to his level of conciousness. Sridhar Maharaja called it, "subjective evolution of consciousness". People in today's world in ordinary consciousness are shown the universe in a particular way through their eyes and technology. Better to preach pure bhakti than focus on "we didn't go to the moon".

[Guruvani]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.21.11

 

evaḿ tato vāruṇīḿ saumyām aindrīḿ ca punas tathānye ca grahāḥ somādayo nakṣatraiḥ saha jyotiś-cakre samabhyudyanti saha vā nimlo-canti

 

 

SYNONYMS

evam — in this way; tataḥ — from there; vāruṇīm — to the quarters where Varuṇa lives; saumyām — to the quarters where the moon lives; aindrīḿ ca — and to the quarters where Indra lives; punaḥ — again; tathā — so also; anye — the others; ca — also; grahāḥ — planets; soma-ādayaḥ — headed by the moon; nakṣatraiḥ — all the stars; saha — with; jyotiḥ-cakre — in the celestial sphere; samabhyudyanti — rise; saha — along with; vā — or; nimlocanti — set.

 

 

TRANSLATION

From the residence of Yamarāja the sun travels to Nimlocanī, the residence of Varuṇa, from there to Vibhāvarī, the residence of the moon-god, and from there again to the residence of Indra. In a similar way, the moon, along with the other stars and planets, becomes visible in the celestial sphere and then sets and again becomes invisible.

 

 

PURPORT

In Bhagavad-gītā (10.21) Kṛṣṇa says, nakṣatrāṇām ahaḿ śaśī: "Of stars I am the moon." This indicates that the moon is similar to the other stars. The Vedic literature informs us that within this universe there is one sun, which is moving. The Western theory that all the luminaries in the sky are different suns is not confirmed in the Vedic literature. Nor can we assume that these luminaries are the suns of other universes, for each universe is covered by various layers of material elements, and therefore although the universes are clustered together, we cannot see from one universe to another. In other words, whatever we see is within this one universe. In each universe there is one Lord Brahmā, and there are other demigods on other planets, but there is only one sun.

 

According to this verse in the Bhagavatam the Moon is actually amongst the stars.

 

As well, Krishna himself says that amongst the stars He is the Moon.

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 10.21

 

ādityānām ahaḿ viṣṇur

jyotiṣāḿ ravir aḿśumān

marīcir marutām asmi

nakṣatrāṇām ahaḿ śaśī

 

SYNONYMS

ādityānām — of the Ādityas; aham — I am; viṣṇuḥ — the Supreme Lord; jyotiṣām — of all luminaries; raviḥ — the sun; aḿśu-mān — radiant; marīciḥ — Marīci; marutām — of the Maruts; asmi — I am; nakṣatrāṇām — of the stars; aham — I am; śaśī — the moon.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Of the Ādityas I am Viṣṇu, of lights I am the radiant sun, of the Maruts I am Marīci, and among the stars I am the moon.

 

 

PURPORT

There are twelve Ādityas, of which Kṛṣṇa is the principal. Among all the luminaries twinkling in the sky, the sun is the chief, and in the Brahma-saḿhitā the sun is accepted as the glowing eye of the Supreme Lord. There are fifty varieties of wind blowing in space, and of these winds the controlling deity, Marīci, represents Kṛṣṇa.

Among the stars, the moon is the most prominent at night, and thus the moon represents Kṛṣṇa. It appears from this verse that the moon is one of the stars; therefore the stars that twinkle in the sky also reflect the light of the sun. The theory that there are many suns within the universe is not accepted by Vedic literature. The sun is one, and as by the reflection of the sun the moon illuminates, so also do the stars. Since Bhagavad-gītā indicates herein that the moon is one of the stars, the twinkling stars are not suns but are similar to the moon.

 

Here again we hear that the Moon is one of the stars.

 

Srila Prabhupada said the astronauts landed on Rahu.

 

So, apparently, sometime in the history of the universe Rahu became an imitation Moon as part of Lord Indra's plan to foil the attempts of unqualified persons to go to the Moon either with mystic powers or space craft.

 

the Real Moon is somewhere amongst the stars as described in the shastra.

 

The real Moon is the Moon of the whole universe, not just some rock orbiting Earth, reflecting Sun light and bewildering Earthlings into accepting a false Moon.

 

The Moon is amongst the stars. It is not a big rock orbiting planet Earth.

[Guruvani]

 

This was not Sridhar Maharaja's conception. His idea was that Sukadeva Goswami was given the vision of the universe as he described in the Bhagavatam due to his level of conciousness. Sridhar Maharaja called it, "subjective evolution of consciousness". People in today's world in ordinary consciousness are shown the universe in a particular way through their eyes and technology. Better to preach pure bhakti than focus on "we didn't go to the moon".

please present the members here with the proper reference and we would like to look at that ourselves.

 

Krishna says that among the stars he is the Moon.

 

Obviously, the Moon is very special having been produced out of the mind of Narayana.

 

Did Lord Narayana produce a pitted and pock-marked rock out of his mind?

 

The Moon is not that big rock that is orbiting Earth.

 

the real Moon is the Moon of the heavens, not some rock caught up in Earths gravity.

[Guest guest]

Here is an exercize. How far away is mars? This can never be answered with scientific fact, because science MUST be exact, a specific number. On 2-5-2006, mars was 162,000,000 miles from earth. Six months later, on 8-27-2006, mars was stated to be the closest ever to earth, just 34,670,000 from earth. Quite a jump, in just six months, mars came to only one quarter of the distance it was previously. Mars can be billions of miles away as well, if it is directly opposite in the solar system. In fact, the earth itself is 186,000,000 miles awaqy from it6self, in just six monbths time.

 

Time and distance is the lamest thing to try to describe by science. When Lord Yamaraja, disguised as a crane (yaksa shape shifter, sorry gv) and holding his brothers in his realm of death, asked Maharaja Yudhisthira to tell the truth about the universe, or else. Yudhisthira answered (correctly to release his brothers from death's grip) that it is nothing more than black empty space.

 

Srilaq Prabhupada cried "Nonsense" to the so-called kali yuga speculative scientists. Their truth always changes (like the distance of mars exhibited above), therefore, it is nothing but lies. If the scientist says they sent someone to the moon, where is the soma? Good question. The moon illuminates the night sky, and the scientist says it is reflection. Why do not the moon rocks glow? Even in the sun, these rocks dont glow.

 

I always thought like guruvani (oh my god, help me =;-), that they may have found something, but not the moon. The moon is not even in our dimension, let alone our realm. Their shuttles cant even make it on a regular trip 200 miles up, yet we are supposed to believe that man walked the moon??? No, more like Quartzite, Arizona. This is doable, and the populace will eat it up and send their donations (massive taxes) to NASA, who, under the table, gives it to Lockheed, DOW Chemical, and General Dynamics to make more stuff to destroy the earth planet.

 

Wheres the Soma.

 

mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

old age hit, i was forty-one, i can't repair the damage done

skin burned up by the sun, lower back pain, not much fun

i had hoped science told the truth, nectar from fountains of youth

i always thought it strange that their truth always changed

while pretending to be sane though they are all quite deranged

these doctors cannot explain why they can't relieve my pain

all they do is lie about how they make the rain

presumtuous about the violence of time

 

from violence of time, mahaksadasa, 1992

[Guruvani]

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.9.26

 

śiras tv amaratāḿ nītam

ajo graham acīkḷpat

yas tu parvaṇi candrārkāv

abhidhāvati vaira-dhīḥ

 

SYNONYMS

śiraḥ — the head; tu — of course; amaratām — immortality; nītam — having obtained; ajaḥ — Lord Brahmā; graham — as one of the planets; acīkḷpat — recognized; yaḥ — the same Rāhu; tu — indeed; parvaṇi — during the periods of the full moon and dark moon; candra-arkau — both the moon and the sun; abhidhāvati — chases; vaira-dhīḥ — because of animosity.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Rāhu's head, however, having been touched by the nectar, became immortal. Thus Lord Brahmā accepted Rāhu's head as one of the planets. Since Rāhu is an eternal enemy of the moon and the sun, he always tries to attack them on the nights of the full moon and the dark moon.

 

 

PURPORT

Since Rāhu had become immortal, Lord Brahmā accepted him as one of the grahas, or planets, like the moon and the sun. Rāhu, however, being an eternal enemy of the moon and sun, attacks them periodically during the nights of the full moon and the dark moon.

 

 

In this verse we hear that Rahu is "like" the Sun or the Moon.

 

That would seem to indicate that it must also be illuminating like the Sun or the Moon.

 

Lord Brahma gave Rahu a place in the universe amongst the planets.

 

The real Moon of the universe is the Moon to all the heavenly planets, so obviously the rock orbiting Earth and reflecting Sunlight is NOT the Moon of the heavens.

 

 

From the residence of Yamarāja the sun travels to Nimlocanī, the residence of Varuṇa, from there to Vibhāvarī, the residence of the moon-god, and from there again to the residence of Indra. In a similar way, the moon, along with the other stars and planets, becomes visible in the celestial sphere and then sets and again becomes invisible.

 

this moon is obviously not the rock orbiting Earth.

[Guruvani]

 

lower back pain,

 

dude, in your old age you gotta do them toe touches religiously.

some hatha-yoga like asanas like the plow will help.

 

I get lower back pain too if I don't take proper care and do what needs to be done to keep the lower back muscles in tone.

 

lately, I have been fine because i have been paying my dues to the exercises and getting good results.

 

Once Srila Prabhupada was taking a walk through Balboa Park in San Diego and he and his disciples walked by a yogi guy standing on his head under a tree.

As the disciples snickered, feeling so superior, Srila Prabhupada said "that is good health".

[Guest guest]

How far up does one have to go before the earth spins at 1000 miles per hour beneath our feet. Why cannot the scientist make a plane that goes striaght up, say 100 miles, and come down 1000 miles away in just one hour. Thats only 200 mph, AND EVEN i HAVE GONE THAT FAST IN A CAR.

 

They cannot do anything like that because the residents of this age are withouyt any intellect at all. The greatest scientists owned by Dow Corning have no knowledge of sacred geometry, nine-ball, quantum multiverse string concepts, etc. Those who do are excommunicated from the community (like Cremo is accepted by the archaeologist community), tesla, einstein, velikovsky, et al.

 

I want to be an engineer when I grow up. I want to be a scientist when I grow up. How do these dreams of idealistic youngsters translate in fructification? The technologist, the engineer, and the scientist all have one thing in common, all are employed by the military industrial complex, all work on new ways to die, new ways to kill human beings, or how to eat pigs without getting hoof in mouth disease.

 

Be scientific, yout mon. Find out the TRUE. From one who knows the TRUE.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

 

In a similar way, the moon, along with the other stars and planets, becomes visible in the celestial sphere and then sets and again becomes invisible.

 

SB 5.21.11

 

The Moon "along with the other stars" and planets (Rahu is a planet "like the moon") becomes visible in the celestial sphere and then sets and again becomes invisible.

 

Sounds to me like the real Moon must be up there somewhere among the stars.

[Guest guest]

As in arthritis, science gives up. New age acupuncturists claim they can help, but if they aint old or chinese, I dont listen to them. They are the same ones who said smoking banana peels got ya high.

 

No, Afghan Primo hash oil got me high. And arthritis is gods way of letting me know of my real position in the material body. Exercize is normal, I hand mow an acre of cemetary every week, walking ten miles in the process. Young-uns (like twenty year olds) cannot keep up with me. But bone still rubs bone, and all the scientist does is give me ibuprophin and codeine (funny, they call the codeine I dont take Soma). Banana peels, if I want to ease the pain, Ill take kali herb. Very rarely, when the alternative is loud screaming, Ill take a little kali herb to relieve the pain, even got a prescription. But mostly, the pain is a reminder that Yamaraja is ready to do a little jam session on (or hopefully with) me, the shape shifter He is and all. Seen him once, BTW. In a dream while awake and buried alive, nother story.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

the rest of the song:

 

does ignorance hold me at bay? will depression stay away?

do i have assurances to live another day?

on that final day i'll admit i've had an education

but did i find any love, did i practice toleration?

what did i ever do to heal the starving nations?

did i ever bow my head to the lord of all creation?

his many holy names are truely a sensation

when sung aloud to mystic tones or whispered in meditation

he's the player of the song, he's the keeper of his word

the teacher of the heart who gives eternal life

he's the one to hear explain the violence of time

 

no backache there.

[Gurupkar]

This is very much true, that more you believe in God, and more you trust the God, more will the reward, (I believe that true love eliminate the fear of death) and it will also help us to do what is impossible for the non believers, although one needs a master to find the correct path to enlightenment, but if you are born master of this universe, then if you would not speak against the wrong then who will?

[Guruvani]

In Vrindavan Krishna is NOT God.

He is a lusty village boy that is irresistable.

 

On Earth, the Moon is further than the Sun.

 

We don't like to follow this demoniac version of the truth.

 

We follow the Bhagavat,