Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka?

[Guest guest]

 

 

 

The dreaming Maha-Vishna is where ones Secondary non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha life force or jiva-s'akti) goes and becomes known as the 'conditioned state' when one chooses to leave Goloka however, ones nitya-siddha svarupa body always remains in Goloka.

 

 

 

 

Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka?

 

 

Question - It does not make sense to me in my present stage of spiritual development, which I can understand is very primitive to being born in a meat eating Godless society, that the jiva-tattva’s are continuously falling from Goloka, I look around me and can understand that billions of embodied jiva’s have taken shelter in a material bodily from the amoebas to aquatic, plant, birds, animals, human, ghosts, demigods etc. Why would anyone, in fact trillions upon trillions of jiva’s leave <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>? From my understanding could it be possible the jiva originates from tatastha or even both, that some do fall down while others are born out of tatastha?

Answer – Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita as it isthat the jivas have no beginning or end, so they certainly did not originate from tatastha condition because there was never a time the life force (jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva) did not exist, nor in the future will such living consciousness cease to be as the Gita tells us. Srila Prabhupada has told us “Because he falls down from Brahma-sayujya (tatastha-s’akti, Impersonal Brahmajyoti or Brahman consciousness condition of the life force), he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that long, long, long, long ago before that even, he was with Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - “No one falls from Vaikuntha.” We really do not fall. We think we are fallen. But this just means we have forgotten our original situation"

Srila Prabhupada is very clear. “Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices.”

The fact is only the jiva consciousness is transmitted out of Goloka and not ones foremost Spiritual nitya-siddha body. Srila Prabhupada has said “We never had any occasion when we were separated from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear– “Our separation from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada clearly emphasizes the fact– “We cannot say therefore that we are not with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. FORMERLY WE WERE WITH KRSNA IN HIS LILA OR SPORT. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Question– Before you answer why so many jiva consciousnesses choose to forget their nitya-siddha body serving Krishna and come to the material creation, if there was no beginning to the jiva, why do so many caste Vaishnava Brahmana guru’s and big, big Gaudiya swamis arrogantly and persistently claim they originated from tatastha when the Gita tells us there is no origin or beginning point of life?

Answer – India is full of gurus and caste brahmanas, unfortunately many of them are Gaudiya Vaisnavas, who mostly read only speculated translations of previous Acharayas and Vedic texts with their English version of interpretation of those texts that has been subtly influence by Impersonalism over hundreds of years undermining Krishna’s Personal creation of marginal persons, claiming they believe and can prove their nonsense impersonal tatastha origins of the jiva-consciousness. We must understand what personalism is, we must understand that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation is personal which means we are all persons as well. Many Gaudiya Vaisnavas have all become polluted with Impersonalism and deny the unfathomable greatness of Lord Krishna’s inconceivable PERSONAL creation.

We are all persons first as a perpetual nitya-siddha body (marginal living entity) with an eternal svarupa that always exists even if we cannot remember that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> Conscious bodily form.

All impersonalism (tatastha-consciousness) has its beginning in the creation originally due to ones nitya-baddha condition of marginal fallen consciousness which is the lower self of ones perpetual authentic nitya-siddha self as already explained. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s creation has always been which means He is always an eternal bodily person and so are all His marginal effulgent emanations of subsidiary beings.

 

 

 

 

This understanding is the basic difference between a Personalist and an Impersonalist

 

 

 

This understanding is the basic difference between a personalist and an Impersonalist although there are far worse impersonal conditions were one denies Krishna altogether and argue that from the Brahmajyoti is where we originally came from, and to the Brahmajyoti we will return.

Regrettably their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is Impersonal instead of understanding all our origins are personal. The Impersonalists, Buddhists and Vaishnavas who believe in the impersonal origins of the jiva, cannot understand that on the top most platform of transcendental Knowledge, the entire creation steams from personalism, it is all personal, the original appearance of the jiva or atma is sat-cit-ananda-vigraha that we further call the nitya-siddha-svarupa. Ones consciousness however can fall to an Impersonal condition but they certainly do not originate fro it. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a bye product or manifestation created by Krishna, yet exhibited by HIS marginal vigraha devotees via their secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that firsts manifests in the mahat-tattva, then after many births and deaths, find liberation from that material frustrating condition in the Impersonal dormant aspect of their consciousness (that is also Krishna’s marginal force or jiva-s’akti/s) we call the Impersonal Brahmajyoti.

In a nut shell and the simplest way possible in explaining what the Impersonal Brahmajyoti and tatastha is, is the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is nothing other than the dormant condition of the nitya-siddhas secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha consciousness that vibrates between the Vaikunthas and the mahat-tattva in the over-all Brahmajyoti or Spiritual Sky. The Brahmajyoti is created by the <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> via His marginal nitya-siddhas when they manifest their secondary (conditioned) nitya-baddha restricted consciousness.

Firstly try to understand that tatastha and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a dormant conscious condition of the nitya-baddha lower non-Krishna conscious self (jiva-tattva or a secondary (conditioned) extension of Krishna’s marginal energy radiating ultimately from His Supreme Vigraha body), or secondary (conditioned) consciousness that primarily expanded out of their perpetual individual nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa Krishna Conscious body in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha due to choice and nothing else because Maha-Maya cannot exist in Vaikuntha. This secondary consciousness (conditioned by ones choices, thoughts, dreams and desires) is then transferred by Yoga-Maya out of Vaikuntha to the mahat-tattva cloud, then placed under the jurisdiction of Maha-Maya, the wife of the facilitator and creator of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu.

Many of us have possibly come and gone to that tatastha condition of our own consciousness on many, many occasions. Therefore it is clear that none of us in this room or the entire creation originated from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, which is not possible because our tatastha conscious condition is only a transitional conscious state of the life force.

Srila Prabhupada says that the existence in the brahmajyoti, merging together with other individual jiva-tatasthas, without loss of individuality, is ultimately just another form of conditioned life or dreaming.

 

Sri Isopanisad explains that the extended secondary dreaming jiva-tattva consciousness is always appealing to Krishna to uncover their real authentic transcendental conscious identity and bodily source in Goloka and remove the veil of the restricted bodily containers in the mahat-tattva as well as the mundane Brahman tatastha consciousness or impersonal Brahmajyoti realization or ‘break away freedom from the mahat-tattva’ and reveal to them it is all (both entrapments in the mahat-tattva and the Impersonal Brahmajyoti) are both a dream and the result of an extended conscious condition caused by ones non-Krishna Conscious desires, thoughts and dreams. In this way ones secondary conscious condition trapped in mahat-tattva consciousness or tatastha consciousness does not see its full potential and true beautiful eternally youthful devotional Krishna Conscious bodily real authentic identity, which is the source of their secondary conscious existence. This is because of ones self centered desires for adoration, fame and wealth they have chosen to pursue.

 

 

Many Impersonalist yogis, Jains, Buddhists and even many Vaishnava traditions, including many Gaudiya Vishnavas, cannot understand that it is their mundane secondary consciousness (conditioned existence) that exists in this material creation that was originally projected or transmitted from their perpetual rasa body in the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha incessant portion of the Spiritual Sky that enters the mahat-tattva and then, after billions of births, only then can manifests AS a spark of consciousness ONLY in the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as confirmed by Jiva Gosvami.

 

 

Why do so many jiva’s fall from Goloka?

 

 

Now to answer your question of why so, so many trillions upon trillion of nitya-siddha-svarupa’s choose to activate their lower self or secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness, that is simply answered.

It is clear in shastra that 25% of the marginal vigrahas (not as their nitya-siddha bodies) do enter the non-Krishna Conscious mahat-tattva cloud simple because of choice which numbers are enormous and in the trillions and trillions as we see arond us, however it must be made clear that only 25% of nitya-siddhas choose to make that secondary conscious plunge, not as their nitya-siddha bodily form, but as the shadow of their perpetual body called the nitya baddha,as the Srimad Bhagavatam teaches us, most never come to the mahat-tattva creation of Lord Vishnu.

It’s hard to get our mind around this fact because many of us have the frog in the well mentality in our present day Spiritual primitive 21^st century society in Kali-yuga. And yes trillions and trillions choose to transmigrate ‘consciously’ to the mahat-tattva, otherwise what need would there be for such a creation? Krishna simply gives us choice, which is the constitutional position of all of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s marginal emanations. Yet remember it is only 1 /4 of creation ‘consciously’ enter the mahat-tattva, 1/4 of all marginal nitya-siddha-vigrahas who consciously enter the mahat-tattva or material manifestation, but never as their perpetual vigraha bodily form.

Everything in Krishna’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode

The various Vedic texts tell us that the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Kingdom</st1></st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><st1> Krishna</st1> </st1:place> is an eternal active place of boundless pastimes where nothing perishes. Everything in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s Abode is always eternally there because of the perpetual and imperishable nature of His Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky or Abode. This means ones eternal, perpetual, unchanging, continuous, everlasting, ceaseless, never ending, long lasting nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha Krishna Conscious body is always there and can never leave or fall down because of the eternal nature of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. Perpetual means nothing there can decay perish or disappear.

It is because of the many meanings of Sanskrit words (170 meanings to the word jiva) and the many analogies used by Vaishnava scholars, (like the sun and the sunrays) many have misunderstood and have either given improper translations into many languages around the world, or who have taken analogies like the sun and the sun rays literally. Was Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, the Spiritual Master of His Divine Grace A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, trying to explain that the living being was originally tossed down from the effulgent advaya light, but upgrading his followers' conditioning by adding the term "Vaikuntha" into this compound? Or, rather, was he trying to restructure the hardened conditioning of his scholastic well-wishers and even some of his devotees (who had become affected by the widespread interpretations of Impersonal origins prevalent at the time) by throwing in the term "advaya" to the compound advaya-vaikuntha. This is an unclear quote, and you can see how subtle the debate gets when these kinds of quotations are referenced.

The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is therefore a manifestation of the secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees in Goloka as already clearly explained. Therefore the Impersonal Brahmajyoti is a phenomenon created by nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition of the nitya-siddha-atma-vigraha perpetual body and simultaneously facilitated by the sleeping Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva cloud. As such, Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha in the perpetual aspect of the Spiritual Sky is one and the same with the Brahmajyoti because the entire creation is the Brahmajyoti or the Brahman effulgence emanating/surrounding <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

In the Brahmajyoti, there exists all the Vaikuntha planets and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishnas</st1:place>’ personified marginal devotees known as the nitya-siddha-svarupa devotees (they are the living personified vigrahas or Brahman effulgence in its highest understanding). Also in the Brahmajyoti there exists the mahat-tattva where the marginal vigraha devotees in Vaikuntha radiate from there being a secondary version of themselves that is only manifested when they choose to disrupt the perfect Krishna Conscious atmosphere of Vaikuntha. When they choose to do so, they are transferred by Yoga-Maya to Maha-Maya in the Mahat-tattva cloud in the Brahmajyoti and enter the dreams of Maha-Vishnu. Only there does <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> allow His marginal creation to do as they please and face the consequences however, they can never enter the mahat-tattva in their nitya-siddha-svarupa body, that is not possible, therefore their entry into the mahat-tattva is compared to a dreaming consciousness or the shadow of who they really are.

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada, from his Bhagavad gita introduction -"Arjuna was in a relationship with the Lord as friend. Of course there is a gulf of difference between this friendship and the friendship found in the material world. This is transcendental friendship, which cannot be had by everyone. Of course everyone has a particular relationship with the Lord, and that relationship is evoked by the perfection of devotional service. But in the present status of our life, not only have we forgotten the Supreme Lord, but WE HAVE FORGOTTEN OUR eternal relationship with the Lord.

Every living being, out of the many, many billions and trillions of living beings, has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can REVIVE that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi—perfection of one's constitutional position".

 

 

Note, the life force is also known as the jiva-sakti, jiva-tattva, jiva-prakrita, jiva-nikaya, jiva-tatastha that are all various stages of dreaming consciousness that is projected outside of the perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha aspect of Spiritual Sky to the impermanent mahat-tattva cloud in one corner of that same Spiritual Sky.. The dreamless tatastha conscious dreamless condition of the jiva-tattva is situated between the Vaikuntha’s and the mahat-tattva cloud. Such a dreamless conscious stat, like the mahat-tattva, is not permanent due to the inherent trait of eternal activity the lower conscious tatastha consciousness inherits from it nitya-siddha full consciousness or real genuine perpetual bodily self.

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

 

Krishna states in the Bhagavad-gita as it isthat the jivas have no beginning or end, so they certainly did not originate from tatastha condition because there was never a time the life force (jiva-s’akti or jiva-tattva) did not exist, nor in the future will such living consciousness cease to be as the Gita tells us.

Because it's acintya; the jiva originates beyond time, an inconcievable idea.

Since this world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world, time here is also a perverted reflection. Krsna's pastimes take place in Krsna Loka under the auspices of Yoga Maya. One thing for certain, to think that the eternal associates, parikara devotees, of the Lord fall into this world just like the conditioned souls, jivas is an anti-devotional thought, aparadha.

 

 

 

[suchandra]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka?

 

 

 

 

This is a question of the material mind. If you take a microscope and watch a dust particle from your kitchen floor, thats what this material world is - an insignificant particle of dust in God's creation. Somehow by the effectiveness of maya or illusion we consider this as our home.

[Guest guest]

This is what called Running in Circles

 

This posting shows how confused Prabupada was, on one hand he always calls some sect of people Rascal etc for their lack of Krsna bakthi and ridicule so many people including scientist etc for being Egoistic and materialistic etc, so where was this concept of no one fell from GOLOKA and its just a illusion that we did and on the other he makes it sound as if we all just forget that we

Are not with Krsna, if we forgot then how come he remembers it and how come most don’t even accept there is a Krsna or a GOLOKA(people with common sense and logic)

 

 

Billions of people don’t even know or believe there is a GOLOKA and no one for sure knows whether Prabupada is in GOLOKA himself, after he died they cremated him that’s all we know.

 

Lets assume there exists a GOLOKA , If GOLOKA was all that great why did Prabupada himself get out of it and why trillions left?No answer for this so far?To think we are just materialistic and that’s why we don’t realize itself is like degrading goloka and saying material pleasure is better than GOLOKA.

 

Ya we all do suffer here but that doesn’t assure you that there is a better place than earth and you go there if you let your ego here and bow to Krsna.

 

If that was the case why cant we all do it now? Why should it happen only after death?Because no one questions after dieing?

[Guruvani]

I left Goloka because I wanted to see Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

 

I was thinking about going back to Goloka soon, but I just heard that there is a new Indiana Jones movie coming out, so I have postponed my trip back to Goloka for a while.

[Guest guest]

 

I left Goloka because I wanted to see Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

 

I was thinking about going back to Goloka soon, but I just heard that there is a new Indiana Jones movie coming out, so I have postponed my trip back to Goloka for a while.

 

LOL! Guruvani! Didn't know u had a sense of humor. First time enjoyed your post. And Congratulations for change of your pic! Looks more real now.

[AncientMariner]

 

I left Goloka because I wanted to see Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

 

I was thinking about going back to Goloka soon, but I just heard that there is a new Indiana Jones movie coming out, so I have postponed my trip back to Goloka for a while.

 

 

I left for similar reasons but I am having problems suspending my disbelief anymore.

[Guest guest]

 

Because it's acintya; the jiva originates beyond time, an inconcievable idea.

Since this world is a perverted reflection of the spiritual world, time here is also a perverted reflection. Krsna's pastimes take place in Krsna Loka under the auspices of Yoga Maya. One thing for certain, to think that the eternal associates, parikara devotees, of the Lord fall into this world just like the conditioned souls, jivas is an anti-devotional thought, aparadha.

 

 

 

NONSENSE, you do not understand the meaning of marginal. EVERY nitya-siddha devotee has the propensity to activate their non-Krishna conscious nitya-baddha consciousness but most do not as Srila Prabhupada explains - the fact is ANYONE in Goloka-Vrndavana or the Vaikunthas can fall down (not as their svarupa body) into the mahat-tattva, as their secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness.

 

Only Krishnas unlimited pursha expansions can never leave Goloka, or even when they do, they are not effected by the material energy, where as ALL marginal living entities can CHOOSE to be with Krishna as their original perpetual rasa or SVARUPA body in Goloka, or do as they choose as their nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness that is only embodied by the grace of Maha-Vishnu within His dreams in the mahat-tattva. When you are ready you will undertand these facts

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Only Krishnas unlimited pursha expansions can never leave Goloka, or even when they do, they are not effected by the material energy, where as ALL marginal living entities can CHOOSE to be with Krishna as their original perpetual rasa or SVARUPA body in Goloka, or do as they choose as their nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness that is only embodied by the grace of Maha-Vishnu within His dreams in the mahat-tattva. When you are ready you will undertand these facts

If your interpretation was true then there would be no reason to worship the intimate associates of Sri Krsna, including the spiritual master for they would have the same falling potential as the conditioned souls. ye me bhakta jana patha na me bhaktas ca te janah... One who worships Me alone is not my devotee, only one who worships my devotees is my real devotee. Therefore the Pradyumna Swami concoction is in opposition to the genuine Gaudiya Vaisnavism that Srila Prabhupada came to give to the world.

[Guest guest]

 

LOL! Guruvani! Didn't know u had a sense of humor. First time enjoyed your post. And Congratulations for change of your pic! Looks more real now.

 

I think he needs to show what he looks like now, not that I don't know already, but it IS a tad different LOL

[Guruvani]

 

I think he needs to show what he looks like now, not that I don't know already, but it IS a tad different LOL

 

you mean like this.....

 

[Guruvani]

There is no such person as Pradyumna Swami.

It is a false identification.

 

It is quite obvious that it is some nutjob that broke out of the mental ward and got his hands on a computer.

[Guruvani]

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 9.21 purport:

 

 

The purport is that instead of being elevated to the spiritual world, from which there is no longer any possibility of coming down, one simply revolves in the cycle of birth and death on higher and lower planetary systems. One should better take to the spiritual world to enjoy an eternal life full of bliss and knowledge and never return to this miserable material existence.

Srila Prabhupada says that there is "no longer any possibility of coming down".

 

NO POSSIBILITY OF COMING DOWN!

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 9.22

 

 

Such a devotee undoubtedly approaches the Lord without difficulty. This is called yoga. By the mercy of the Lord, such a devotee never comes back to this material condition of life. Kṣema refers to the merciful protection of the Lord. The Lord helps the devotee to achieve Kṛṣṇa consciousness by yoga, and when he becomes fully Kṛṣṇa conscious the Lord protects him from falling down to a miserable conditioned life.

 

It says here that Krishna protects his devotees and that they never come back to this material world.

[Guruvani]

It's quite obvious in the above statement that Krishna protects his devotees in the spiritual world and they never fall down.

Even if they commit some mistake, the Lord will protect them from falling down.

 

Anyone who says that Lord Krishna lets his devotees fall down to become worms in stool is actually accusing the Lord of not protecting his devotees.

[Beggar]

 

you mean like this.....

 

Would you buy a used car from this man?

[Guruvani]

 

Would you buy a used car from this man?

 

[Guruvani]

anybody else humble enough to appear half naked on the forum in front of everybody?

 

I didn't think so..........................

[Beggar]

[Beggar]

 

Picture of Ebenezer Scrooge going before Yamaraja. The half naked men are Yamaduttas who morph into less ghastly beings in the Court of Yama. Need engagement?

[Guruvani]

 

Picture of Ebenezer Scrooge going before Yamaraja. The half naked men are Yamaduttas who morph into less ghastly beings in the Court of Yama. Need engagement?

 

how do you know I am not already a Yamaduta?

 

Yamadutas like to join the Sankirtan movement too!

 

They don't want to be Yamadutas forever.

 

 

now, lets see a picture of you with your shirt off.....

[Beggar]

[Guest guest]

 

 

The dreaming Maha-Vishna is where ones Secondary non-Krishna conscious dreams (nitya-baddha life force or jiva-s'akti) goes and becomes known as the 'conditioned state' when one chooses to leave Goloka however, ones nitya-siddha svarupa body always remains in Goloka.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness (superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second".

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu – “When we "return" to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here. We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity. We need only wake up and see where we are. All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from and enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left. Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth”.

 

Explaining the paradox of the marginal living entities two-fold existence of ‘seemingly’ split personalities, which is just another aspect of achintya bheda-abheda-tattva teachings of Lord Caitanya.

 

The nitya-baddha bodiless sub-consciousness, originating from ones marginal identity does NOT originate from ones nitya-siddha-svarupa bodily fullness of ones marginal identity even though they are both part of the one individual individual marginal identity and personality. It is NOT possible for the nitya-baddha consciousness to be maintained in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha because the nitya-baddha lower self does not exist in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

 

The nitya-baddha sub-conscious condition of the marginal living entity is activated from within the tatastha condition of consciousness, situated on the cusp or borderline that separates the ‘personal’ from the ‘Impersonal mahat-tattva.’

This intermediate dormant state of consciousness is also an Impersonal or an inactive conscious condition of the marginal living entities nitya-baddha consciousness called the jiva tatastha which is the living features or sparks that make up the Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti. The Impersonal Brahmajyoti is non other that the nitya-baddha conscious condituon of the lining entity in its individual inactive state.

 

This also also a tempoary condition of the marginal living entities secondary conscious aspect of their marginal identity that only exists when one chooses to no longer serve Krishna which is their marginal right if they chhose to do so. Without such freedom of choice there can be no question of love. In other words there is always choice for all marginal living entities as already explaine because it enables one to increase their love or service to Krishna. However it also allows one to reject Krishna if they choose.

 

If such ‘choice’ is not there, which is actually the real meaning of the word marginal, then we are no better than programed robots in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha.

 

This is why ALL marginal living entities have a two fold consciousness, one is the nitya-siddha perpetual body which is the real permanent fullness of all marginal living entities, being their genuin svarupa personality, identity and BODILY FORM.

While the other is the inferior nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness that is ‘OUT OF SYNC WITH ETERNAL TIME’ that depends on the mercy of Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva for counterfiet etheral and biological vessels to chase out their independent dreams without Krishna. In the mahat-tattva the eternal present is divided into past, prsent and future.

In this way the nitya-baddha secondary conscious condition exists in another dimension of time that is activated by the marginal living entities mistaken dreams, desires and thoughts (once again it is to do with the time factor and not the individual).

 

The nitya-baddha condition of consciousness of the marginal living enity is only active outside the Vaikuntha realm yet simultaneously exists with its nitya-siddha counterpart. One is eternally liberated as a bodily form (nitya-baddha - svarupa-vigraha).

 

The other is eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha or jiva-tattva) as a bodiless dormant sub-conscious non-Krishna conscious extention of the marginal living entity that continually comes and goes from the tatastha condition of consciousness to the mahat-tattva where it is ‘clothed’ by ethereal and biological vessels or containers provided by Maha-Vishnu. That is until one again re-establishes theit orginal position as their nitya-siddha-svarupa body in Goloka-Vrndavana.

 

The understanding of the nitya-siddha-svarupa ‘vigraha’ (bodily form) is the highest realization of how all marginal living entities perpetually, originally and everlastingly, without beginning or end, exist. The marginal living entity is also called the sat (forever eternal) cit (full of Knowledge) ananda (always blissful) vigraha (always in bodily form), serving beautiful Krishna. -

THE SECRET BOOK OF ORIGINS

[Guruvani]

The fall from Goloka theory means that Krishna does not protect his devotees.

That conclusion is very offensive and is very much against the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Krishna has promised in the Gita that he protects his devotees.

 

If they are falling from Goloka, then Krishna is not protecting his devotees and that makes him a liar.

 

Krishna is not a liar.

He protects his devotees.

 

Devotees don't fall from Goloka.

 

It is demoniac to say that they do.

[Vigraha]

 

The fall from Goloka theory means that Krishna does not protect his devotees.

That conclusion is very offensive and is very much against the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Krishna has promised in the Gita that he protects his devotees.

 

If they are falling from Goloka, then Krishna is not protecting his devotees and that makes him a liar.

 

Krishna is not a liar.

He protects his devotees.

 

Devotees don't fall from Goloka.

 

It is demoniac to say that they do.

 

Krishna helps those who help themselves, who always desire to serve Him. In other words if one is always Krishna Conscious then one will never be unaware of their svarupa relationship with Krishna - Srila Prabhupada says it is originally our choice. And that choice is always there even in Goloka. The majority of the marginal living entities NEVER come to the material creation unless it is for one of Krishna's Lilas. Only up to 25% of the marginal living entities choose to activate their inferior dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness because they want to be a controller like Krishna.

 

There is always choice but most do not come to the material creation Srila Prabhupada explains. It is only our lack of Knowledge that makes us fearful of this fact. Real surrender to Krishna does not mean we become a mindless blissful atom in His Body. Surrender means to re-establish our original and perpetual relationship or 'svarupa' bodily association and service to Krishna - it is already there, we are already there, we just have to wake up from this dream and that is why we chant Hare Krishna and serve the devotees.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Srila Prabhupada – “So this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness (superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual body) then this period is considered as a second".

 

Is this really you JD or someone else?