Why would anyone, in fact trillions of jiva’s choose to leave Goloka?

[Guest guest]

Krishna helps those who help themselves, who always desire to serve Him. In other words if one is always Krishna Conscious then one will never be unaware of their svarupa relationship with Krishna - Srila Prabhupada says it is originally our choice. And that choice is always there even in Goloka. The majority of the marginal living entities NEVER come to the material creation unless it is for one of Krishna's Lilas. Only up to 25% of the marginal living entities choose to activate their inferior dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness because they want to be a controller like Krishna.

 

There is always choice but most do not come to the material creation Srila Prabhupada explains. It is only our lack of Knowledge that makes us fearful of this fact. Real surrender to Krishna does not mean we become a mindless blissful atom in His Body. Surrender means to re-establish our original and perpetual relationship or 'svarupa' bodily association and service to Krishna - it is already there, we are already there, we just have to wake up from this dream and that is why we chant Hare Krishna and serve the devotees.

[Guest guest]

 

 

The occurrence of divided time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future that cretes the phenomenon of impermanance, decay and forgettfulness where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only".

Therefore no one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka. Please understand that once and for all. Because of the absence of the time factor there is no loss of consciousness in Goloka once one’s nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated and one has returned to the awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is perpetually serving Krishna</I>) one realizes herself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body and the so-called fall was only an illusion...it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it.

The jiva-tattva or nitya-baddha consciousness (the soul) is not moving from one body to the next. <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>. Once one has returned (<i>in reality one never really left but instead chose to forget <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> says the soul is immovable in the Gita. The only movement there is, is one of nitya-baddha jiva-s’akti consciousness and not movement as understood and experienced under the influence of material time and space. So from ones marginal svarupa body in Goloka- Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, the marginal nitya-baddha may manifest due to ones choice to ‘dream’ in a separated state from Krishna however, in reality one is never separated from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body and ones rasa with Krishna is not interrupted, they only dream for a moment they are separated, not even a moment. That condition of sub-conscious restricted awareness is called the nitya-baddha conscious condition that enters the mahat-tattva to become covered by the illusion of moving between birth & death, heaven and hell, past & future where that ‘moment’ for the nitya-siddha can be trillians upon trillions of years to the nitya-baddha condition of consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious rasa body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as because of the attachment to pursue our no-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the centre instead of Krishna.

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary.

 

 

 

 

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go when they choose to have their ‘moment of self interested glory’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however, that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left due to the eternal 'presents' that only exists in Goloka. Uitimately it is what ever Krishna wants, He is not bound by anything.

 

 

 

 

 

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All atma-vigraha ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do ‘jiva-souls’ appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasis believe.

Every living marginal entity has a perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa body that they have always been for eternity without beginning and without end. Most of the Vedas therefore are dealing with the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva and jiva-tatastha which is seeing everything from the viewpoint of the secondary nitya-baddha consciousness and not the nitya-siddha perpetual body. In other words, modern day 21<SUP>st</SUP> century Vaishnavism is seeing everything from the viewpoint of the nitya-baddha consciousness which is only ‘consciousness’ and has no form until given ethereal and biological bodies or vessels by Maha-Vishnu. The description of sparks in the effulgence or a particle or atom in a ray of light is correctly describing the nitya-baddha consciousness in the mahat-tattva and the nitya-baddha jiva-tatastha consciousness in the surrounding Impersonal aspect of the Brahmajyoti that separates Vaikuntha from the maha-tattva. The other 75% of creation is full of nitya-siddha devotee of whom some are simultaneously in the mahat-tattva as a bodiless conscious projection.

Srila Prabhupada – “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the Spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Even while he is in that position, the Lord remains with him as the Supersoul, his intimate friend. Because of his forgetfulness, the living entity does not know that the Supreme Lord is accompanying him as the Supersoul. In this way the living entity remains conditioned in each and every millennium. Although the Lord follows him as a friend, the living entity, because of forgetful material existence, does not recognize Him”.

“However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” Prema-pradipa, p. 83

“Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns.” Srimad Bhagavatam 2.2.31

“It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .” Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

“By the grace of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire. However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life. The living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul's choice is nicely illustrated by <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Milton</st1:City></st1:place> in Paradise Lost. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krishnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility. . . However generally once one has experienced the misery of the material world, he keeps perfect intelligence to not misuse his free will again. It is these experienced souls who will never return or fall from Vaikuntha. Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">San Francisco</st1:City></st1:place>, February 18, 1967

Acyutananda: .....But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."

Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutananda: He can return.

Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Morning Walk--February 19, 1976, Mayapura

Srila Prabhupada then cites the verse from Prema-Vivarta explaining the cause of the living beings original sub-conscious fall to the material world:

Acyutananda: What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-Vivarta:

 

 

 

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare

 

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

 

 

 

 

 

“As soon as... We are eternal servant of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Krishna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krishna—so <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> has got full independence, but we are minute. Therefore, we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth. Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2 <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Hyderabad</st1:place></st1:City>, April 11, 1975

 

 

 

What does marginal mean?

 

 

To create the reality of free will and loving devotion that never ever remains stagnant in bliss or just being ‘assimilated’ into the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm as a loving android of Krishna’s, the marginal living entities are all created with two-fold levels of consciousness. The nitya-siddha-svarupa consciousness is in the form of an eternal rasa Krishna Conscious body where the choice is always there to forever increase ones devotion to Krishna however, to make that choice factual and a genuine exchange of love rather than a mechanical mindless response, there is also the ability in all marginal living entities to choose their non-Krishna lower nitya-baddha condition of their marginal personality.

 

 

 

This is why all living marginal entities in Vaikuntha can ‘consciously’ fall down from their perpetual body in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha simply because of the way Krishna created all marginal living beings - with free will that makes ones love for Krishna real instead of mechanical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

After first choosing to extend ones nitya-baddha consciousness from their marginal nitya-siddha rasa body and 'sub-consciously' enter the mahat-tattva and then eventually surrender to a 'so called' devotee of Krishna with the desire to be assimilated into a state of total inactive bliss by becoming an atom at Krishnas' lotus feet, is not only selfish, but is another aspect of Impersonalism!! Such desires are denying ones original rasa body that is always fully active in the devotional service to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is the original position of all marginal living entities from whence they can choose to serve the rebellious desires or the lower sub-conscious nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness that all marginal living entities are endowed with as already explained. The fact is the only way to enter the mahat-tattva or material creation is to ‘consciously’ fall down from ones svarupa body in the Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha portion of the Spiritual Sky. The mahat-tattva is simply a place where the lower dreaming nitya-baddha conscious condition of the marginal living entity goes when they choose to ignore <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

[Guruvani]

These are the secrets of the acaryas. Sometimes they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas, and explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control. (Cc. Madhya-lila 25.42, purp.)

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

 

Krsna's service is so sublime that even if we cheat, you are not culprit. But because we have to deal with the worldly man, we have to go according to their rules and regulations on cheating. Otherwise, a devotee of Krsna, he never cheats. He never cheats. Whatever he does . . . Just like a mother says to his child, "My dear child, if you take this medicine, I will give you this lugloo."

[Guruvani]

We are not meant for cheating anyone. We have no business. But to lead one to Krsna consciousness we may say something sometimes. So that is not cheating. (SP Room Conv. Atlanta, March 2, 1975)

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada:

 

This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees.

 

 

Krsna's service is so sublime that even if we cheat, you are not culprit.

[muralidhar_das]

This Pradyumna Swami has some strange ideas.

 

http://krishnas-zero-tolerence.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!C86033D76508C5C9!127.entry

 

 

 

Many sentimentally believed all their kids born into ISKCON were born ‘karma free’. Such deluded sentimentalism and attachment to the ‘external biological appearance, garment or vessel’, thinking because this embodied jiva-soul is in the body of a child; they must be innocent and sinless. Such sentimental Christian dribble is ignorant of all the past lives and karma that had carved the embodied jiva-soul-consciousness to create such a body and its surrounding circumstances in its present birth. No one in the material world is innocent!! We have all had billions of lives!! The back ground of most of the fist generation of Krishna Kids were from hippies and the LSD generation – frankly, what else other that struggle can be expected from such a pioneering movement born out of the war in festered human rights abuses of the 20th Century!? And that is just the tip of the iceberg compared to the billions of lives we have all had.

Why do little children get killed in car accidents, bombings or die of cancer? It’s all Karma!! This point has to be emphasised due to the conviction many have that they are their biological garment (body).

We all meet up with those embodied jiva-souls we deserve and who deserve us, however, that does not mean the abusers and exploiters during the ISKCON pioneering years are not responsible, to the contrary, they have been born a time and circumstance according to their ‘desire and karma’ to exploit and abuse others whose karma it is to be exploited and abused. It is part of their journey of carving their way to hell!! Those who are ignorant to the laws of the universe cannot understand why ‘so called innocent children’ suffered. The answer is simple; they suffered because there was no genuine Krishna Consciousness with all involved.

All this can only be changed with genuine Krishna Consciousness without the external imitation that was predominant in the 1970s, 80s, 90s and even today.

 

So that is how it is, according to Pradyumna Swami (who is really Gaura Gopal dasa).

 

Children who were abused in Iskcon were not innocent. That was their fault.

 

Moderator, I hope you don't delete this post. You do it so often. Even when what I'm saying is right. Gaura Gopal and child abuse... there is more to this...

[krsna]

We are not meant for cheating anyone.

We have no business.

But to lead one to Krsna consciousness we may say something sometimes.(That we've all fallen from the spiritual world)

So that is not cheating.

 

(SP Room Conv. Atlanta, March 2, 1975)