Left Ritvik(IRM) to Join ISKCON

[maccoy77]

At one time i was a Free-Thinker, i research on various religious thoughts and scriptures but found only half truths. All these research lead me to Krsna Consiousness and after reading Prabhupada books, i'm convinced that Krsna Consiousness is the Real Religion. My research never go wrong in the end.

 

After being interested in the Hare Krsna movement, My First contact with devotees were from Ritviks, Learn a great deal of Vedic knowleage from them for 4 Years. I was convinced that Ritvik was right and Iskcon was wrong, The entire Ritvik system was based on the July 9 letter. I've read it many times and was convinced that Prabhupada wanted a ritvik system.

 

As i was so convinced that Iskcon followers were fallen, i prayed to prabupada and told him why is there so many division within the movement, the next moment i came across a quote from prabupada from the internet.

 

"A devotee should have intelligence to know who is deviating. Surrender by your intelligence but don't surrender your intelligence." (SP to Bali Mardana, 1974)

 

This quote wake me up. So i look thru the Final order book, and studied the the July 9 letter, search thru the internet, done my own research just based on the this letter. And i have realized that Prabhupada Never intended a Rivik system at all. It was all a Hoax. Prabupada was not feeling well at that time and so he appointed 11 of his disciples to act as ritviks because the movement was growing all around. The letter was a temporary provision because Prabupada was weak. Ritvik says that these letter will last for the next 10000 years which does not make sense because the letter address to the 11 disciples would NOT LIVE FOR 10,000YEARS !!. Prabupada said

 

Prabhupada: Yes. That is formality. Because in my presence one should not become guru, so on my behalf, on my order... Amara ajnaya guru haia. Be actually guru, but by my order.May 28, 1977

 

If i use my God given intelligence. Prabupada is very clear, after his physical departure one may be a Guru, but if he is around One cannot be a Guru unless Ordered by Prabupada.

 

Prabhupada had given permission to all his devotees to be Spiritual Masters, but is up to them to take it up.

 

"So far designation is concerned, the spiritual master authorizes every one of his disciple. But it is up to the disciple to carry out the order, able to carry out or not. It is not that spiritual master is partial, he designates one and rejects other. He may do that. If the other is not qualified, he can do that. But actually his intention is not like that. He wants that each and every one of his disciple become as powerful as he is or more than that. That is his desire. Just like father wants every son to be as qualified or more qualified than the father. But it is up to the student or to the son to raise himself to that standard." (San Diego, June 29, 1972)"

 

""You each be guru," he said. "As I have five thousand disciples or ten thousand, so you have ten thousand each. In this way, create branches and branches of the Caitanya tree." (Mayapur GBC meetings 1976)"

 

 

The above quotes are just fragments of my research...Went thru for months researching on the Guru path and read many various qutoes by Prabhupada, infact i even reserach on other Vedic Traditions. The Conclusion is...

 

Students will never be students, one day they will become teachers and initate their own disciples. This is the Vedic Truth. Just like a Chinese Kunfu Master, he would expect all his disciples to be better than him and spread the skills so that his disciples will become master themselves and accept their own disciples. This is common sense.

 

Ritvik sorry to say, but i think you have move away from Prabupada instructions and accepted Krishnakant (IRM) instructions. My wife did not make any kind of progress when we were Ritviks for 4 years. She often felt to leave Krishna Movement for Good. But After joing ISKCON and attending their programs, My Wife Krsna Consiouness have improved so much that she is often singing the Hare Krsna mantra and talks about Krishna always. A Chanting Rounds improve from none to 5 Rounds now. This happens by the mercy of Krishna and Prabupada. I felt the potency.

 

Thanks Prabupada was opening up my intelligence to understand your quotes. All one needs is pray to prabupada to understand his quotes, than the Truth will come.

 

 

"Just Try to learn the truth by apporaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him

submissively and render service unto him. The self realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth" (Gita 4.34(P259)

 

If you have a Ritvik system, you cannot apporach a Spiritual master you can only apporach a Temple President. Which is infact going against the Vedic system. Guru works in 2 ways..Its a 2 way communication, he can either accpet or reject...But in the Ritvik system it is a one way traffic...Everything rest on the temple president which is not right. Yes the Ritviks wants the GBC to reform..But that will never happen and has not happen because Krishna does not sanction it simple as that.

 

Hare Krishna

Sincere Iskcon Follower now Looking for a Guru to render Service and Inquire from him.

[AncientMariner]

Congratulations that you found clarity. For me I have read about this debate for about 10 years and my guess is this debate may very well go on for 10,000 years. I still don't have much of a problem with the concept of a ritvik because my understanding is that a ritvik is a representative of the Acarya. I agree with you in the sense that I am not convinced the Irm has been appointed by Prabhupada to act as ritviks but I do think it is in Prabhupada's power to have people act as his representative. Of course I could be wrong and if so I apologize in advance.

[suchandra]

The Ritvik movements like IRM were surely not started by, as said above, so called deviants of ISKCON, but by ISKCON itself. After series of epidemic falldowns of so many "diksa-gurus" leaving behind thousands of betrayed disciples some concerned devotees started the Ritvik movements, with good reason. It is simple like that. As Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja instructed to first of all have a strong GBC to keep the movement one united powerful preaching force and not fall appart like a ramshackle hut, this was surely also Prabhupada's foremost desire. Somehow, both, Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta Maharaja, couldnt install their movements as such that they won't fall appart the very day they left this world. This is not an opinion but plain fact.

[theist]

 

Sincere Iskcon Follower now Looking for a Guru to render Service and Inquire from him.

Why do you describe yourself as an Iskcon follower rather than a follower of Lord Caitanya or Srila Prabhupada? I think it dangerous to consider oneself a follower of an institution rather than a follower of the person who used the institution as his preaching tool. It smacks of impersonalism to a degree.

 

Otherwise I agree with the bulk of your post.

[maccoy77]

 

Why do you describe yourself as an Iskcon follower rather than a follower of Lord Caitanya or Srila Prabhupada? I think it dangerous to consider oneself a follower of an institution rather than a follower of the person who used the institution as his preaching tool. It smacks of impersonalism to a degree.

 

Otherwise I agree with the bulk of your post.

Yes Wrong word to use...Sorry, Yes i'm a Follower of Lord Caitanya and Sirla Prabhupada. All glories to Prabupada.

 

I'm not against any branches of the Hare Krishna movement, i'm not against Ritvik too, but based on my calculated research, Prabupada never intended a Ritvik system which they claim to be. Yes Some Gurus have fall, and this is a Learning Experience for future followers. Anyway i'm attending Iskcon programs and all is well.

 

Humbleness,Sincerity and strong faith is the hallmark of the Hare Krishna movement, i ve seen that within Iskcon but not with the Ritvik, because it seems many Ritvik followers lack the humbleness, maybe because they don't have a Guru to tell them "Hey be Humble"

[suchandra]

 

Yes Wrong word to use...Sorry, Yes i'm a Follower of Lord Caitanya and Sirla Prabhupada. All glories to Prabupada.

 

I'm not against any branches of the Hare Krishna movement, i'm not against Ritvik too, but based on my calculated research, Prabupada never intended a Ritvik system which they claim to be. Yes Some Gurus have fall, and this is a Learning Experience for future followers. Anyway i'm attending Iskcon programs and all is well.

 

Humbleness,Sincerity and strong faith is the hallmark of the Hare Krishna movement, i ve seen that within Iskcon but not with the Ritvik, because it seems many Ritvik followers lack the humbleness, maybe because they don't have a Guru to tell them "Hey be Humble"

 

Thanks maccoy77, yes, I also tried several times to present this at the forum, but somehow it seems the honoured Vaishnava members don't like to address this issue.

[mahak]

Haribol, and congratulations on following Srila Prabhupada's final order that we all TRY to cooperate. I have followed closely the rtvik debate over the last ten years. I never doubted the sincerity of any of my godbrothers, and have tried to view the whole thing from a point of neutrality. The debate is heated, but the bottom line, such debate, which is about the status of ISKCON in ones spiritual progress, is about reform.

 

One who is dedicated to the cause of preservation of the foundation and preaching apparatus of our Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, should work within the structure of that foundation. Yelling from the sidelines is a useless tactic.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

I have had an ISKCON guru and I believe he is fallen, consumed by pride. He should never have been made a guru and any one with vision could have seen that from the outset. The GBC made a mistake. From what I can see before his departure Prabhupada left this question of what system should follow unanswered. I find with both ISKCON and IRM's position that neither have strong foundations on which to base their assumptions. Why did Prabhupada not assign guru status to anyone if he saw that it was necessary on his departure? Why did he not explicitly state in any of his texts that the Ritvik system was to be followed? It is a test of faith and all so deliciously inconclusive. Prabhupada's enigma will only be resolved by a few faithful people I imagine. At the moment I am one of the bewildered.

[mahak]

Srila Prabhupada explicitly tells us, "Scrutinizingly understand this philosophy". The understanding comes from the Supreme Lord who inspires his representative to appear before the sincere candidate for devotional service. This does not mean to surrender to one who is presented as an official by a foundation, nor, for that matter, is given the reins of guru from the previous acaryaq. Scrutiny means finding out that there is no precendent for appointment of acarya by another acarya. All such appointment comes from Lord Balaraqma. Romaraharsana was appointed by other acaryas, those whom he sat in presidence over were not necessarily fools, yet they did not see that the person was not appointed by Lord Balarama, even though they approved of him.

 

So, even if one joins or rejoins ISKCON, this scrutiny is never to be given up. Never does one worship others on the strength of convention (meaning official designation, committee concurrence, etc). A guru is one who gives without reservation all he has received. There are those inside and outside the structure of ISKCON who can and are willing to do this, but the SCRUTINY never leaves the disciple. There are no bad gurus, folks are linked together by the lord of rememberance, who is also the lord of forgetfulness. Omniscience means Krsna knows you in full, and will send you to guru or will send guru to you, according to YOUR desire.

 

Funny after all these years of INITIATION debate, I ask myself, "If I ever needed or desired second initiation or official sanyassi designation, who would I approach?" I dont, because I am not a pujari, dont do fire sacrifices, dont need the diploma for any reason. But if I did, these three stand out, all quite diverse. Sriman Jayadwaita Swami, Sriman Locanananda Prabhu, and Srila BA Paramadvaita Swami, not necessarily in that order, would be the three that I inquire into the possibility of receiving Brahmana status, gayatri mantras, etc. An High ISKCON official, a staunch supporter of the officiating acarya methodology employed by Srila Prabhupada to initiate by proxy, and an independent acarya with his own foundation connected to the tree of devotional service by dint of complete subserviance to Srila Prabhupada, a guru in his own right, duly ordered to be so by Srila Prabhupada. No discrimination at all. My opinion, but not my main concern.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Laulyam]

<CENTER>Questions and Answers

 

</CENTER>Devotee #1: Sabda-brahma is Krishna in sound vibration?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. One has to hear. It is not that, "All right, tapes are there, I'll hear the recorded tapes." Sabda-brahma will never descend.

Devotee #2: It doesn't descend through transmission of tape?

Gour Govinda Swami: No, no.

Devotee #2: Only when you are personally sitting there with a pure vaisnava?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Now in this material scientific age so many techniques are there. People, say, "No more teacher are required. We'll teach through television." Nonsense. Sabda-brahma will never descend.

Devotee #3: What if one is a disciple of a bonafide guru, then later on that guru stops his lila. What should one do?

Gour Govinda Swami: Lila is always there:

adyapiha sei lila kare gaura-raya,

kona kona bhagyavan dekhibare paya

 

(Cb. quoted in Bhaktivinode Thakur's Navadvipa Mahatmya Pramana-khanda)

Gauranga's pastimes are still going on. People say, "Oh Gauranga Mahaprabhu has disappeared." One who is very fortunate and has vision he can see how gaura-lila is going on.

Devotee #3: That means that guru is always there?

Gour Govinda Swami:Yes. He is always there. His lila is going on.

Devotee #3: I may think, "I have already taken the dust of the lotus feet of my guru. Now he is not here. So I don't need that dust anymore."

Gour Govinda Swami: Darsana is there. The guru is always there if you have the eye to see. If you are a sat-sisya you can always see how the guru is present.

Devotee #4: How can we see guru?

Gour Govinda Swami: Blind man! If you are endowed with that vision you can see.I never lost sight of my guru. I see my guru is always there. Therefore I cannot say,"nitya-lila-pravistha". It is so painful to me. No! He is here.

Devotee #4: Do you have to be a pure dovotee to see a pure devotee?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes! That vision is required. If you have no vision then you are a blind man.How can a blind man see? The object is there. What is required to see the object? The first thing is the eye. Next is light. You may be endowed with vision, but if there is no light, how can you see? Can you see in the darkness? Therefore two things are required, first vision and then light. Even if you are endowed with eyes, if there is no light then you can't see. What is that light? The enlightenment by the mercy potency. If you are devoid of that, how can you see?

Devotee #5: Anarthas are like clouds in front of the eye?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, Yes. Anarthas are like clouds covering the sun. The eye is covered.

Devotee #2: Can one see guru appearing in different forms, or is he coming in dreams?

Gour Govinda Swami: He may come in a dream. He has different forms also, just as Krishna has different forms. Krishna has so many manifestations. Therefor we have described in our book Sri Guru-vandana about samasti-guru and vyasti-guru.

Devotee #6: What are those kind of gurus?

Gour Govinda Swami: Guru Krsna-rupa hana sastrera pramane (Cc. adi-lila1.45} -- scripture describes that it is Krishna who appears as guru.

Krishna is one. Guru tattva is also one. Guru is one, but he appears in different, different, forms. That is samasti-guru. The particular forms such as Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami, Srila Bhakitisiddhanta, this person and that, this is vyasti-guru.

Devotee #3: When Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati left, guru was still there?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes.

Devotee #3: Guru is always present?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, always present.

Devotee #3: Because guru is non-different from Krishna we understand that to be a guru is not an easy thing. So why is it said that someone maybe on the level of kanistha or madhyama and be guru?

Gour Govinda Swami: All are gurus. There is kanistha-guru, madhyama-guru, uttama-gurus. Divisions are there. What you deserve you get. Krishna knows what you deserve so He makes an appropriate arrangement for you.

Devotee #7: Some devotees are not accepting guru now. They are saying, "I'll just accept sastra.

Gour Govinda Swami: How can you understand sastra?

Devotee #7: But we have seen, as in Russia, that some devotees have only gotten books and they are now chanting, worshiping the deity, and preaching.

Gour Govinda Swami: You cannot understand. In sastra, mantra is there. Nama is there. But unless it comes out from the lips of sad-guru, Sri Guru, your chanting will never be effective. The potency will never be there.

Devotee #7: But they say that smrti-sastra is coming from the lips of vaisnavas, so we are heaing smrti.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. This is how sastra manifests. When is comes out from the lips of sad-guru, Sri Guru, then it manifests. Though sastra is there, by itself it will never manifest to you. It's a question of manifestation.

Devotee #7: Other persons say that we can hear from the commentaries of the vaisnava-acaryas.

Gour Govinda Swami: For that reason it is said,

bhaktya bhagavatam grahyam

na buddhya na ca tikaya

Srimad Bhagavatam can only be understood by bhakti, not be dint of one's intelligence or by reading commentaries. (Cc.24.313)

You cannot understand Bhagavata by taking help of the tikas, commentaries. So many commentaries are there. One may think, "Yes, I am a scholar. It is all written in Sanskrit. I know the language so I can read and understand it." No! You can only understand Srimad Bhagavatam by bhakti. You cannot understand Bhagavata by dint of your material scholarship, learning, intelligence, or by taking the help of the commentaries. No, no. Hear from acarya and then you can develop bhakti. Unless you hear, how can you understand just by reading? You cannot understand. Grantha-avatara will never manifest to you. You will only see paper, and black and white. Nothing else.

Devotee #7: Then what is the meaning of the brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana? Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati has said that our kirtana is brhad-mrdanga-sankirtana, the printing press.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. That will inspire you. Just one book distributed spreads so far. First you read the book and then one friend says, "Oh, let me read it." Then he lets someone else read it. In this way it sprads so much. The sound of the mrdanga only goes rom here to there. But the brhad-mrdanga spreads so far. That will inspire you. You will think, "Who is the source? Let me go and see and hear from him."

Devotee #7: So first you hear and then if you read the same thing in the sastra...

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. It is only in Kali-yuga that books are required.. In other yugas there are no books. Just by hearing once they would never forget. But in this yuga, if I ask you to repeat what you have heard after the class, how much can you repeat? You will have already forgotton ninety to ninety-five percent. Only five percent you may be able to repeat. Books are required. Therefore Vyasadev came and wrote books. In other yugas there are no books. They will help you remember, "Oh yes. I have heard. Now it is here."

Devotee #7: In your book Sri Guru-vandana, you have described this flow of nectar as padma-madhu.You said that it comes to a devotee who is a sincere hearer. So someone who is very sincere to hear from guru and serves guru, he may get that nectar even though he may not have physical contact? Gour Govinda Swami: You should be greedy. Physical contact is required. You must hear directly, not just by listening to tapes. Sabda-brahma will never descend through a tape. One must hear from a physically present Sri Guru.

[Guest guest]

 

 

Funny after all these years of INITIATION debate, I ask myself, "If I ever needed or desired second initiation or official sanyassi designation, who would I approach?" I dont, because I am not a pujari, dont do fire sacrifices, dont need the diploma for any reason. But if I did, these three stand out, all quite diverse. Sriman Jayadwaita Swami, Sriman Locanananda Prabhu, and Srila BA Paramadvaita Swami, not necessarily in that order, would be the three that I inquire into the possibility of receiving Brahmana status, gayatri mantras, etc. An High ISKCON official, a staunch supporter of the officiating acarya methodology employed by Srila Prabhupada to initiate by proxy, and an independent acarya with his own foundation connected to the tree of devotional service by dint of complete subserviance to Srila Prabhupada, a guru in his own right, duly ordered to be so by Srila Prabhupada. No discrimination at all. My opinion, but not my main concern.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Srila Bhakti Vedanta Narayana Maharaja:

Always try to chant the holy name and don't be weak. This is also the teaching of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. You should remember and meditate, three times daily, on the diksa mantras given to you by your Gurudeva: guru-mantra, guru-gayatri, gaura-mantra, gaura-gayatri, krsna-mantra, kama-gayatri, panca-tattva mantra, and hari-nama. Never think they are useless. Like Krsna, they are very powerful. The krsna-mantra (gopal-mantra) is exactly like Gopal, who is Kisora-Krsna Himself. Kama-gayatri is more superior, and it came to Brahma from the flute of Krsna. Try to be punctual and utter the gayatri-mantras without fail three times daily, at the proper times, and you will gradually come to realize your relationship with Krsna.

 

Try to develop a very thick and eternal relationship with Krsna. That relationship is revealed in the gopal-mantra, and it is a very secret thing. You cannot develop Krsna consciousness without such a relationship. Krsna should think, "Oh, this devotee has a thick relationship with Me," and that thick relation should first be with Radhika. If Krsna knows, "She is the dasi of My most beloved Radhika, He becomes theirs. There is no doubt about this at all.

 

The Vedas say that Krsna only belongs to those who are serving Radhika. He will hear about their service to Her, and He will at once give His whole heart to them. He becomes their property. Therefore, try to obey.

[maccoy77]

 

I have had an ISKCON guru and I believe he is fallen, consumed by pride. He should never have been made a guru and any one with vision could have seen that from the outset. The GBC made a mistake. From what I can see before his departure Prabhupada left this question of what system should follow unanswered. I find with both ISKCON and IRM's position that neither have strong foundations on which to base their assumptions. Why did Prabhupada not assign guru status to anyone if he saw that it was necessary on his departure? Why did he not explicitly state in any of his texts that the Ritvik system was to be followed? It is a test of faith and all so deliciously inconclusive. Prabhupada's enigma will only be resolved by a few faithful people I imagine. At the moment I am one of the bewildered.

Prabhupada have asked all his devotees to be Gurus, but it is up to his devotees to take it up. But in the Presence of Prabhupada none can be a Guru unless ordered, After his physical departure, any of his disciples can be a Guru, provided he has the qualification.

 

"So far designation is concerned, the spiritual master authorizes every one of his disciple. But it is up to the disciple to carry out the order, able to carry out or not. It is not that spiritual master is partial, he designates one and rejects other. He may do that. If the other is not qualified, he can do that. But actually his intention is not like that. He wants that each and every one of his disciple become as powerful as he is or more than that. That is his desire. Just like father wants every son to be as qualified or more qualified than the father. But it is up to the student or to the son to raise himself to that standard." (San Diego, June 29, 1972)

 

"You each be guru," he said. "As I have five thousand disciples or ten thousand, so you have ten thousand each. In this way, create branches and branches of the Caitanya tree." (Mayapur GBC meetings 1976)

[Guruvani]

 

 

"You each be guru," he said. "As I have five thousand disciples or ten thousand, so you have ten thousand each. In this way, create branches and branches of the Caitanya tree." (Mayapur GBC meetings 1976)

 

The key is that first the qualification must be there.

Can the spiritual master actually deliver the disciple back to Godhead?

 

If the spiritual master is himself not from Vrajaloka or of Vrajaloka, then of course there is certainly the question of whether or not the "guru" can deliver a disciple to a place that he himself is simply aspiring to attain.

 

Therefore, the spiritual master must be perfectly self-realized and free from all material attachments including attachment to the property of the spiritual master.

 

Certainly, Srila Prabhupada hoped for a successor, but in the mood of his own spiritual master he simply prayed that if he could create ONE pure devotee that he would consider his mission a success.

 

The GBC system of dimestore gurus, that are a dollar a dozen, is certainly manufacturing many unqualified gurus that are simply using the property of the spiritual master to prop themselves up as a spiritual master.

 

These career gurus that live off of the properties of the spiritual master are very questionable and many of them have already gone back down to service of the senses and many more will go down in the coming years rendering the Gaudiya parampara as untrustworthy and riddled with false acharyas.

 

Many of us do not believe this system or this standard would ever be acceptable to Srila Prabhupada and thus the GBC has lost it's claim to be representing Srila Prabhupada.

 

In short, they have become a mob that has plundered the properties of the spiritual master and divided it up under the code of honor amongst thieves.

[theist]

 

Yes Wrong word to use...Sorry, Yes i'm a Follower of Lord Caitanya and Sirla Prabhupada. All glories to Prabupada.

 

Nice to hear that. I hope I didn't sound too much like a nit picking fault finder but this is a BIG point for me.

 

 

I'm not against any branches of the Hare Krishna movement, ...

 

Sounds like a very healthy attitude. This brings up another point however that often needs clarifying. Some think Iskcon is the only branch of Srila Prabhupada and those outside of Iskcon are somehow connected to the parampara in a different way. I disagree. I believe any one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples who starts his or her own mission and is empowered to do so by Srila Prabhupada and the Lord in the heart is directly linked up through Srila Prabhupada, and their disciples as well. In other words Iskcon has no monopoly on Srila Prabhupada.

 

What is your view maccoy?

 

 

Humbleness,Sincerity and strong faith is the hallmark of the Hare Krishna movement, i ve seen that within Iskcon but not with the Ritvik, because it seems many Ritvik followers lack the humbleness, maybe because they don't have a Guru to tell them "Hey be Humble"

 

I agree on those qualities and we should apprciate them wherever we may find them but I disagree that anyone is without such a guru. First of all *Lord Caitanya is the universal guru and has taught as much already. The Lord in the heart we all also have who will remind the sincere soul of the need to be humble sincere and to have strong faith. We have an abundance of Vaisnava written teaching to tell us the same thing also.

 

I fear you may be jumping from the frying pan into the fire on some of these points due to your present association. Of course that is your business but please remember guru is not a material body(spiritualized or not) any more than anyone else is. What the guru is, what he comes to deliver is transcendental sound vibration.

 

 

*please read my signature quote below.

[theist]

 

Devotee #1: Sabda-brahma is Krishna in sound vibration?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. One has to hear. It is not that, "All right, tapes are there, I'll hear the recorded tapes." Sabda-brahma will never descend.

Devotee #2: It doesn't descend through transmission of tape?

Gour Govinda Swami: No, no.

Devotee #2: Only when you are personally sitting there with a pure vaisnava?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. Now in this material scientific age so many techniques are there. People, say, "No more teacher are required. We'll teach through television." Nonsense. Sabda-brahma will never descend.

I would be curious to hear Gour Govinda Swami's rational behind such a statement. It is not enough for me at least just to blindly accept this.

 

I had the good fortune to meet him and hear from him for a week or so years back and that little time was enough for me to know he is wonderful soul. Still this statement needs to be backed up.

[Guruvani]

 

<center>Questions and Answers

 

</center>Devotee #1: Sabda-brahma is Krishna in sound vibration?

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes. One has to hear. It is not that, "All right, tapes are there, I'll hear the recorded tapes." Sabda-brahma will never descend.

Devotee #2: It doesn't descend through transmission of tape?

Gour Govinda Swami: No, no.

 

This kind of statement is a direct attack on the very principles and practices of Srila Prabhupada, as Srila Prabhupada gave gayatri mantras to hundreds of disciples though tape.

So, obviously, Gaura Govinda Maharaja departed with Srila Prabhupada on this issue.

His reasons for departing from the obvious teachings of Srila Prabhupada (teaching by example that sabda-brahma can descend through tape recording of the acharya), are quite obvious. But, I will leave that up to the imagination of the readers.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja described how Vyasadeva took sabdha-brahma and rendered it into script. He also said that it is not impossible that sabdha brahma can come through tapes or recordings.

So, if sabdha, can be rendered into script, then why not recorded sound?

 

If the recording has it's origin in aprakrita sound, then the material energy of the tape and recording become spiritualized just like any other material thing that is used in the service of Krishna.

 

Srila Prabhupada followed Srila Rupa Goswami who propounded that any material thing can be spiritualised in the service of Krishna and he did not approve of false renunciation of material advancements that can be used in the service of Krishna.

 

Why can a material body or a piece of marble or a chunk of brass become spiritualized while tape recorded sound vibration cannot?

 

Srila Prabhupada showed by his own practices and example that he in fact approved that sabdha brahma can be transmitted through tape recording or recorded sound vibrations.

 

Gaura Govinda Maharaja directly insulted this practice of Srila Prabhupada with his opinion that sabdha brahma cannot be transmitted by recorded message.

 

There are some that would consider such statements as directly offensive to Srila Prabhupada himself.

[Guest guest]

A book or tape recorder can have the shadow of the nama within it - that is all.

[Guruvani]

 

A book or tape recorder can have the shadow of the nama within it - that is all.

that is up to Krishna to say, not you.

 

Krishna can do ANYTHING he wants and nobody can stop him.

 

If his pure devotee wants Krishna to appear in a tape recording, then Krishna will appear in a tape recording.

 

Who has the authority to make absolute claims that in fact contradict what a self-realized acharya has given?

 

certainly not you, Narayana Maharaja, Gaura Govinda Maharaja or anyone can decide what Krishna can do.

 

If the pure devotee instills Krishna in his tape recording, then nobody can stop that.

 

The tape is not material.

It was spiritualized by the empowered acharya.

 

Nobody has authority to absolutely say otherwise.

 

Why did Mahaprabhu want Rupa and Sanatan to write so many books?

So they could transmit material sound and material conceptions?

[Guruvani]

 

Your unbridled arrogance is shocking to see.

 

Do you even follow the four regulative principles? Do you chant sixteen rounds every day? Do you attend Mangala-aroti as Srila Prabhupada said to do?

 

You don't. We all know that.

 

Yet like the worst kind of false Guru you hypocritically condemn other Vaisnavas who are senior to you in EVERY way.

 

Hypocrite. Fool.

 

truth is truth no matter where it comes from.

your anger and bitterness is very unbecoming.

 

apparently you hope to silence me with insults and accusations.

 

sorry pal, it won't work.

[Guest guest]

What does Hari Bhakti vilasa say on this issue? Does that have any importance anymore Sparky?

[Guruvani]

 

What does Hari Bhakti vilasa say on this issue? Does that have any importance anymore Sparky?

 

What did Srila Prabhupada say?

That is more important to me than thinking I can go to Hari bhakti vilasa and understand something without the guidance of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Srila Prabhupada understood the essence of knowledge.

His practices and principles are more important to me than thinking I can understand Hari Bhakti Vilasa and undo something given by Srila Prabhupada.

 

Maybe you should be so prudent?

 

Are you so advanced and realized that you can perfectly understand the essence of hari bhakti vilas?

 

If you were you probably wouldn't be posting anonymously on the forum like a wierdo. You would be more of a gentleman than that!!

[Guest guest]

Prabupada encouraged study of the writings of the Gosvamis, you can read this in his commentary on CC. Look it up in your database and yes it does hold importance for Gaudiya Vaisnavas,

 

I mean come on, you sound like you have stepped back in time 25 years my man!

 

How have you gotten to be so damn rude with all this name calling Sparky?

 

You have been hiding your identity for years here and suddenly let everyone know just a few days ago, gimme a break!

 

Did your Philipino wife leave are something brah, you are sure pissed off?

 

I deserve better peace than this, I came to respect you over the years, but you have gone bonkers here with all this.

[Guest guest]

I meant to say YOU deserve better peace than this, your not foolin those of us who have known you for years and years, maybe the new kids around here. Come on put the bazooka down!

[Guest guest]

He would tell many things. He would speak about sabda brahman because many devotees had a misconception that simply by reading Prabhupada's books they could learn everything. Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja said, "You have to hear directly from the lips of the pure sadhu. Bhakti-sakti is in his sabda brahman. Krsna Himself is sabda brahman. He will come in your heart and clean your heart through the sound vibration coming from the pure sadhu. Then you can get bhakti, otherwise not, impossible." Sometimes for three days he would lecture on verses from Srimad Bhagavatam only about sadhu sanga. He collected every verse from Srimad Bhagavatam and he would tell the verses and explain them one by one.

Sripad Asrama Maharaja once asked him, "Maharaja, what if we hear from tapes." Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja replied, "Tapes are something but not complete. You will have to hear directly." Sripad Asrama Maharaja asked, "But what about you?" Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja replied, "I am hearing from my Gurudeva everyday and what he is telling me I am telling you." This is why the lectures of Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja were so powerful, attractive and revolutionary. Some people would say, “We don't accept him. Why is he so different from Srila Prabhupada?” But he told us, "I am hearing from my Gurudeva every day and what he is telling me, I am telling you." He was so humble about it, very, very humble. He would be like a lion while speaking, and as soon as the lecture finished, he became like a pussy cat, like a lamb, very very soft and shy, keeping his head and eyes down.

When he would start his hari katha, he would give a very long mangalacaranam, glorifying his guru, his guru-varga, all Vaisnavas, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Radha-Krsna. Then he would recite many verses glorifying Srimad-Bhagavatam. He would become transformed and speak as if possessed. Observing him, we can see how the hari katha manifests in the world by the mercy of Krsna and Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

He was always saying, “You will have to associate with sadhus. Sadhu sanga sadhu sanga sarva sastre kaya. Satam pransangam mama virya samvido. Mahat-sevam dvaram ahur vimuktes. Sometimes for three days he would lecture only on Bhagavatam verses about sadhu sanga. He collected every verse from the Bhagavatam. He would recite the verses and explain them one by one

[Guest guest]

Follow the Angels

The Path of Dedication

by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

Bhakti Under the Higher Agent Only

When I joined the mission, I wanted to read the books of the mission, including Bhagavatam, but I did not find any encouragement from the authority. The real thing, the real requirement is to use our energy for the service of the Lord. By that process only may we go up, not by satisfying our intellectual necessities. Jnana-sunya-bhakti, an illiterate man may achieve a higher position in the realm of devotion than a literate man.

By the command of the Lord's agent we may engage in literary culture, even as Mahaprabhu instructed Rupa and Sanatana Gosvamis. Of course, they had acquired their knowledge to utilize it in the service of the sampradaya, the Gaudiya disciplic succession. He also asked Raghunatha Bhatta to hear the Bhagavatam from one who knew its real purport.

Jiva Gosvami was the only exception. Mahaprabhu asked him to study independently before he joined the Vrndavana party. He left his home and went to Benares, the center of all sorts of learning at that time. He studied different sastra and then joined the others in Vrndavana. There, under the direction of Rupa and Sanatana, he utilized his previously acquired knowledge in the service of the sampradaya. When we get inspiration from above to study, that study is devotion. Otherwise a whim to study, to acquire scholarship, may not be bhakti proper, suddha-bhakti.

The higher agent, the Vaisnava, must utilize my energy. This energy must be spent to satisfy the higher world. Then it will be bhakti, it will be devotion. My mental imagination may bring sukrti, but it won't be suddha-bhakti if I have a mind to help the sampradaya in a scholarly way. At my own risk I must go on with my study. It is accepted that when one is connected with the higher agent, then it will be considered devotion; otherwise it is not. It is an empirical attempt with some sort of good imagination. But this is not pure bhakti, pure devotion. Pure devotion is to carry out the orders descending from above, from the higher agent. The waves are coming; catch them and then act accordingly.

Our Godbrother Nisikant Sanyal said that when we are requested by a Vaisnava to write or read any book, then that constitutes devotion. But when of our own accord we read any devotional book, that won't give us devotion. That will be karma or jnana. To surrender unconditionally to the instruction coming down to us, that is bhakti. All else is imitation. We find this warning everywhere. This we should understand.

Even reading the scriptures is not devotion unless done on the order of the Vaisnava. Independent reading is only knowledge-seeking. By following the Vaisnava, our bond with the Lord is guaranteed. Sadhu-sange krsna-nama: in the company of the devotees, chanting the Name or whatever service we render is guaranteed to reach Him. And what is the guarantee of that? The reply will be, "His agent is saying so, and I am therefore engaged. I am not my master; I am his servant." Such consciousness must be genuine, as far as possible. Success depends on this principle.

If we are appointed to preach, to do relief work here, we will execute that duty solely under the appointment of, and in the interest of, that higher plane, without any vanity. We should think, "I must put myself wholly at the disposal of the higher plane, and I shall not be eager to become an acarya, a spiritual master. Otherwise, there is the danger of committing nama-aparadha, offense against the Lord's Name."

Asraddadhane vimukhe 'py asrnvati, yas copadesah siva-namaparadhah. It is an offense to give the Holy Name to the faithless. It betrays the motivation to gain a position in the higher sphere. This is a type of mundane attachment, a spiritual commerce, as is the habit of caste gosvamis and other spurious lines. Rather, the healthy attitude should be, "If I am appointed from above, then I shall serve as appointed, and that too, only for the interest of those who have appointed me. I am entering that rank solely for the interest of that higher land." That is the pure and perfect approach.

Srila Sridhara Svami, the renowned commentator of Srimad Bhagavatam, has stated, sa carpitaiva sati yadi kriyeta, na tu krta sati pascad arpyeta: "Devotional service must be first offered to the Lord, then performed; not performed and offered afterwards." We should already be committed when we come to serve. We should not collect capital and later try to utilize it in the service of the Lord. The commitment is to Him, to Krsna.

We have come to know about Him for Him, not for our sake or for anyone else. We preach only because of the instruction from above. Only if we receive an instruction from that higher quarter, "Go and preach," shall we do so. Only then will our preaching be service, and never if it is done for name and fame. We must have engagement from the higher office, and only on their behalf we shall preach; then it will be genuine preaching. Otherwise, it will be trading. Na sa bhrtyah sa vai vanik: Prahlada Maharaja has warned us against this trading mentality in the name of spiritual truth.

Devotion is a separate and distinct plane where we live only for the center. We aspire to live and move only as agents of the center, never disconnected from the center. This is Krsna consciousness. Reality is for Itself, and we must strictly abide by this rule. He is for Himself, everything is for Him, we are for Him. Whatever we do must also be for Him. We must strictly adhere to this conception, and always examine whether what we are doing is for Him or for any other part, however important we may think it to be.

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