ISKCON guru chastised and disciplined!

[Guruvani]

 

ummm to be honest, there is nothing "traditional" in an American being a "guru" or vedic anything. lol. everything is conventional except the teachings.

 

Mahaprabhu didn't allow these differentiations between American, European and Indian Vaishnava.

So, we shouldn't adopt such an artificial classification of Vaishnavas.

 

There is no such thing as American Vaishnava or European Vaishnava or Indian Vaishnava.

Vaishnava is Vaishnava.

We can't divide Vaishnava by some false bodily conception of life.

 

But, when it comes to guru-tattva a guru is a guru and cannot be subjugated by some corperate committee.

[Guest guest]

 

What is rarely mentioned is not only were there originally 11 men mentioned by Prabhupada who could become guru after he left, but the GBC, consisting of 13 representatives, could add more. Yes it got to where the gurus had more power than the GBC. But the GBC should actually be in charge of the gurus. This is Prabhupada's will and desire. He said more could be added. He implimented the GBC saying that his guru wanted it but his guru's disciples didn't follow. So Prabhupada started it himself. These men, the GBC's must be more powerful in determining who shall become or remain guru, not because they are more powerful than a genuine, bona-fide spiritual master, but because someone has to set the standard for gurus and do something about the ones who fall down. We have seen gurus who fall that are so attached to their positions that they take their disciples with them, and the disciples follow the guru because he tells them the GBC are in maya.

No, there is nothing wrong with the GBC controlling the gurus. The problem is they are too laksidaisical about it. Begging Dhanurdhara swami's forgiveness when he was kicked out for child abuse, begging Satsvarupa's forgiveness that they dared to criticize the uttama adhikari, instead they should let him control all of his disciples and use their money to print books and he gets the profits. And never go to temples or preach except to say to his own followers how much maya the rest of the society is in.

The GBC is afraid because every time a guru falls he takes his disciples with him so that is why they are afraid to announce when a guru falls, but then the guru takes his disciples with him anyway. They have no gumption.

The zonal gurus were GBC. They constituted the greater portion of the GBC in any case. So where was the control? Once most of them fell down , who was left as GBC? Hardly anybody. So a new GBC mysteriously emerged and perpetuated the acarya fiasco by appointing dozens and dozens of gurus.(uttama adhikari? I don't think so).

We are to believe that gurus can be created by committee? Show me a single quote by Prabhupada that justifies such nonsense.

[Guest guest]

 

The zonal gurus were GBC. They constituted the greater portion of the GBC in any case. So where was the control? Once most of them fell down , who was left as GBC? Hardly anybody. So a new GBC mysteriously emerged and perpetuated the acarya fiasco by appointing dozens and dozens of gurus.(uttama adhikari? I don't think so).

We are to believe that gurus can be created by committee? Show me a single quote by Prabhupada that justifies such nonsense.

 

Prabhupada said "You can add more men in the future" (gurus) when he gave a list of eleven men to start with. He left it up to the GBC. There is where the ambiguity comes in. There is no quote stating exactly how a guru should be recognized because Prabhupada left it up to the GBC, plain and simple.

 

What about Satsvarupa's other one to two hundred he is selling at his website that is fully stocked? Are all these books Bhagavatam? Written by the person Bhagavatam so they are fully authorized without question by the GBC? Satsvarupa started deviating at least twenty years ago if not more with his adventures of Mustika the mouse or something like that is it not? Why aren't the rest of his books banned and burned? The only good ones there are tell something about Srila Prabhupada in my opinion. If he is using the "f word" now, why are the old books any better? Was he more advanced then but fell down? Or was he always fallen?

[Guest guest]

 

Prabhupada said "You can add more men in the future" (gurus) when he gave a list of eleven men to start with. He left it up to the GBC. There is where the ambiguity comes in. There is no quote stating exactly how a guru should be recognized because Prabhupada left it up to the GBC, plain and simple.

 

What about Satsvarupa's other one to two hundred he is selling at his website that is fully stocked? Are all these books Bhagavatam? Written by the person Bhagavatam so they are fully authorized without question by the GBC? Satsvarupa started deviating at least twenty years ago if not more with his adventures of Mustika the mouse or something like that is it not? Why aren't the rest of his books banned and burned? The only good ones there are tell something about Srila Prabhupada in my opinion. If he is using the "f word" now, why are the old books any better? Was he more advanced then but fell down? Or was he always fallen?

I need a reference for your quote. What letter, tape or conversation does this little fragment come from?

[Guruvani]

 

What is rarely mentioned is not only were there originally 11 men mentioned by Prabhupada who could become guru after he left,

 

First of all this is a lie and a distortion of the facts.

Srila Prabhupada never said they would be gurus after he left.

That is a lie.

 

So, before we can establish a conclusion we have to eliminate the lies and the distortions that some anonymous fool posted here to intentionally confuse the truth about what Srila Prabhupada gave for ISKCON.

 

(1) Srila Prabhupada never appointed or named any gurus and never said the ritviks would then be gurus after his departure.

 

that is an intentional lie...............

[Guest guest]

 

I need a reference for your quote. What letter, tape or conversation does this little fragment come from?

According to the IRM, this quote came from TKG when he was at Topanga canyon in 1980. He was about to ask Prabhupada to sign the letter for the original 11 temporary helpers to help initiate in Srila Prabhupada's behalf, or else maybe this was understood that later these disciples would become gurus I don't know. But TKG asked Srila Prabhupada if he should add any more to the list, and Srila Prabhupada said, "More can be added as needed".

[Guest guest]

 

According to the IRM, this quote came from TKG when he was at Topanga canyon in 1980. He was about to ask Prabhupada to sign the letter for the original 11 temporary helpers to help initiate in Srila Prabhupada's behalf, or else maybe this was understood that later these disciples would become gurus I don't know. But TKG asked Srila Prabhupada if he should add any more to the list, and Srila Prabhupada said, "More can be added as needed".

Weak

[maccoy77]

 

It looks like one of the ISKCON "acharyas" has been chastised and disciplined by the ISKCON administrative body.

 

This system of gurus under the thumb of a governing body committee is a serious assault on the "traditional parampara" that ISKCON claims to follow with it's multitude of "acharyas" like this one.

 

 

 

"traditional gurus"?

 

Not by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Why can't they just admit the truth that without the ritvik system ISKCON will never succeed?

 

A real "acharya" would tell the committee to kiss his behind.

 

But, to keep the meal ticket and ISKCON quarters intact, the "acharya" has bowed to the committee.

 

I was from Ritvik with them for 4 years left them and now i have joined iskcon....Prabhupada did not or never intended a ritvik system. It is a new creation by Krsnakant. The Vedic Principles is when a Guru moves on his disciples , some may act as Guru and initiate their own disciples. This is the Vedic Truth.

 

Ritvik system creates a bunch of devotess who are envious and lack humbleness. They can rebel against their senior devotess because they are not gurus. Without a Guru telling them what is right or a wrong , a ritvik man can go on speculating and says ""Oh because Prabhupada says so"

 

Pls read and understand the Vedic System of Guru and disciple. Or read prabhupada's quotes on Gurus.

[maccoy77]

 

First of all this is a lie and a distortion of the facts.

Srila Prabhupada never said they would be gurus after he left.

That is a lie.

 

So, before we can establish a conclusion we have to eliminate the lies and the distortions that some anonymous fool posted here to intentionally confuse the truth about what Srila Prabhupada gave for ISKCON.

 

(1) Srila Prabhupada never appointed or named any gurus and never said the ritviks would then be gurus after his departure.

 

that is an intentional lie...............

 

Did Prahupada's Guru appointed Prabhupada as Guru ?? Go and find this proof first.

[Guest guest]

 

Did Prahupada's Guru appointed Prabhupada as Guru ?? Go and find this proof first.

 

Indian man: When did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna consciousness?

 

Prabhupada: What is that?

 

Brahmananda: He’s asking when did you become the spiritual leader of Krsna consciousness?

 

Prabhupada: WHEN MY GURU MAHARAJA ORDERED ME. This is the guru-parampara.

 

Indian: Did it...

 

Prabhupada: Try to understand. Don’t go very speedily. A GURU CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE’S ORDERED BY HIS GURU. THAT’S ALL. OTHERWISE NOBODY CAN BECOME GURU.

 

Indian man: When did he tell you to...?

 

Prabhupada: WHAT IS THE BUSINESS, WHEN DID HE TELL ME? AND WHY SHALL I DISCLOSE TO YOU? IT IS SO VERY INSIGNIFICANT THING THAT I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU?

 

Indian man: No, I am just curious when...

 

Prabhupada: YOU SHOULD BE CURIOUS WITHIN YOUR LIMIT. YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT ONE CAN BECOME GURU WHEN HE IS ORDERED BY HIS GURU, THIS MUCH.

 

(October 28, 1975)

[Guest guest]

 

Prabhupada did not or never intended a ritvik system. It is a new creation by Krsnakant.

 

I do not see the name "Krsnakant" mentioned here. Do you?

 

 

MAY 28, 1977 CONVERSATION

 

Satsvarupa: Then our next question concerns initiations in the future, particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how first and second initiation(s) would be conducted.

 

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya(s).

 

Tamal Krsna: Is that called ritvik acarya?

 

Srila Prabhupada: RITVIK. YES.

 

 

JULY 9, 1977 LETTER – Signed by Srila Prabhupada

 

“Recently when all of the GBC members were with His Divine Grace in Vrndavana, Srila Prabhupada indicated that soon He would appoint some of His senior disciples to act as "RITTIK"-representative of the acarya, for the purpose of performing initiations, both first initiation and second initiation.”

 

“After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada”

 

“The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad”

 

 

JULY 11, 1977 LETTER

 

“A letter has been sent to all the Temple Presidents and GBC which you should be receiving soon describing the process for initiation to be followed in the future. Srila Prabhupada has appointed thus far eleven representatives who will initiate new devotees on His behalf.”

 

JULY 19, 1977 CONVERSATION

 

Srila Prabhupada: “And nobody is going to disturb you there. Make your own field and CONTINUE TO BECOME RITVIK and act on my charge.”

 

JULY 21, 1977 LETTER

 

“Srila Prabhupada's initial list of disciples appointed to perform initiations for His Divine Grace. This initial list is also being sent to all centers.”

 

JULY 31, 1977 LETTER

 

“His Divine Grace immediately replied […]’Now you have a very good field. Now organize it and it will be a great credit. No one will disturb you there. Make your own field and CONTINUE TO BECOME RITVIK AND ACT ON MY BEHALF.'”

 

OCTOBER 22, 1977 CONVERSATION

 

Srila Prabhupada: So I have deputied some of you to initiate? […] THIS INITIATION I HAVE DEPUTED MY DISCIPLES, IS THAT CLEAR OR NOT?

 

Tamala Krsna: IT IS CLEAR.

[suchandra]

 

Tamala Krsna: IT IS CLEAR.

 

Looks like Bhakta Tom's posting is clear.

[Beggar]

Rtvik is gradually wining in ISKCON circles. Rtvik is a type of guru. One of a slightly lesser status who connects one to the principle acarya.

[Guruvani]

 

Rtvik is gradually wining in ISKCON circles. Rtvik is a type of guru. One of a slightly lesser status who connects one to the principle acarya.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja once said that the ritvik is the vartma-pradarshaka guru.

 

That is the guru who shows one the proper path.

 

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Everything, everything. And the ritviks are but vartma pradarsaka guru. When he was living, he appointed so many ritviks, representatives, they are really, they are vartma pradarsaka. Do you follow?

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/gbc/78_ssm_gbc.html

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: That will be fair for you, that you will extend it from the ritvik board. Who is already empowered, they will extend, their consideration. They can extend their scope. In this way you move, it will have spiritual characteristic. Do you follow?

Devotee: Yes.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: These eleven, they will extend themselves. From this point, it will be-the area of the acaryaship will be extended. Then gradually twenty-four or more, but it will spread from this point, extend. Bigger, bigger, bigger. That you may do, to keep the spiritual characteristic of the extension of the Acarya Board.

 

[bhaktachris]

 

Rtvik is gradually wining in ISKCON circles. Rtvik is a type of guru. One of a slightly lesser status who connects one to the principle acarya.

 

Rtvik is just for those who think that Prabhupada is no longer with us, also so called "living rubber stamped gurus"

 

Oh! Prabhupada is here, gotta get back to him

[theist]

 

Rtvik is just for those who think that Prabhupada is no longer with us, also so called "living rubber stamped gurus"

 

Oh! Prabhupada is here, gotta get back to him

 

They are just flipsides of the same coin who occupy themselves with arguing over who is the head and who is the tail.

[Guest guest]

Exactly!

 

But the jokers that are the 'ritviks' will tell us that we can;t get connected without them. Like they hold a patent or something. Just power hungry but lame ducks, the ritviks are.

 

The ritviks are just a freaking disturbance. We don't need them to get connected to Srila Prabhupada.

 

 

 

Rtvik is just for those who think that Prabhupada is no longer with us, also so called "living rubber stamped gurus"

 

Oh! Prabhupada is here, gotta get back to him

[Guruvani]

 

Exactly!

 

But the jokers that are the 'ritviks' will tell us that we can;t get connected without them. .

ok Mr. Big Mouth.

 

Please post a quote from one ritvik that has ever said that.

 

I know you won't because you can't because you are in fact a liar that is spreading false propaganda because you have an agenda.

 

get a life loser..........

 

If you can't think of anything better to do than tell lies on the internet, then maybe you should get another hobby?

[Guest guest]

OK, so you're saying that we don't need ritviks to get connected to Srila Prabhupada? If so, I agree and will revoke what I said.

 

Let's see.

 

 

ok Mr. Big Mouth.

 

Please post a quote from one ritvik that has ever said that.

 

I know you won't because you can't because you are in fact a liar that is spreading false propaganda because you have an agenda.

 

get a life loser..........

 

If you can't think of anything better to do than tell lies on the internet, then maybe you should get another hobby?

[Guruvani]

 

OK, so you're saying that we don't need ritviks to get connected to Srila Prabhupada? If so, I agree and will revoke what I said.

 

Let's see.

 

my opinion doesn't matter.

we go by what the acharyas have given.

 

the Saraswata parampara is a siksha-guru parampara........

 

do your own homework and don't come on the forum making outragious claims based upon your own misconceptions and accusing others falsely because you don't know what you are talking about.

[Guest guest]

Well, it's now clear that you belive the ritviks are necessary for the

connection.

 

But sorry, I don't need the freelancing ritvik agents, I can get the connection to Srila Prabhupada in other ways. No freelancers please!

 

 

my opinion doesn't matter.

we go by what the acharyas have given.

 

the Saraswata parampara is a siksha-guru parampara........

 

do your own homework and don't come on the forum making outragious claims based upon your own misconceptions and accusing others falsely because you don't know what you are talking about.

[Guruvani]

 

Well, it's now clear that you belive the ritviks are necessary for the

connection.

 

But sorry, I don't need the freelancing ritvik agents, I can get the connection to Srila Prabhupada in other ways. No freelancers please!

Srila Prabhupada set up the ritvik system.

How can you claim to be his disciple if you haven't followed his ritvik system?

 

If anybody can be a disciple without formal initiation then why did he create a ritvik system?

 

Srila Prabhupada established an authorized system for becoming his formally initiatiated disciple.

 

If you don't accept that system then you don't accept Srila Prabhupada.

 

Disciples had to meet certain standards and requirements.

If you don't meet the requirements then you aren't a disciple.

[theist]

 

Disciples had to meet certain standards and requirements.

If you don't meet the requirements then you aren't a disciple.

 

 

No one needs a ritvik or Iskcon to fullfill those requirements. Both camps have made themselves irrelevant. A charge which really bites them to their core as they both consider themselves so vital and indespensable to the process of connecting up to Srila Prabhupada.

[Guruvani]

 

No one needs a ritvik or Iskcon to fullfill those requirements. Both camps have made themselves irrelevant. A charge which really bites them to their core as they both consider themselves so vital and indespensable to the process of connecting up to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Hey, I didn't establish the ritvik system, Srila Prabhupada did.

 

I know you think the whole idea is stupid.

 

But, if it was stupid I don't think Srila Prabhupada would have bothered with it.

 

You can manufacture your own process if you like.

But, I think Srila Prabhupada's system is better than yours.