ISKCON guru chastised and disciplined!

[theist]

You still can't see outside of your iskcon box. The thing you don't understand is that Srila Prabhupada does not exist only in your little box. He exists in his instructions on how to reach Krsna.

[Guruvani]

 

You still can't see outside of your iskcon box. The thing you don't understand is that Srila Prabhupada does not exist only in your little box. He exists in his instructions on how to reach Krsna.

 

fine and dandy...

but to be a formally initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada is not up to your whim.

Srila Prabhupada put a system in place for those who wanted formal initiation from Srila Prabhupada. It was called the "ritvik system".

 

Nobody is twisting your arm to accept it.

 

But, Srila Prabhupada authorized it whether you like it or not.

 

Frankly, we could care less about your little opinion.

 

We are concerned with what Srila Prabhupada gave, not what your personal whims are.

[Guest guest]

He didn't start a ritvik system designed to last ten thousand years, this is the speculation of Mr. Desai. He was toward "the fag end of his life" and wanted help conducting initiations, so he used 11 men to help him do this, this is called "ritvik" initiation. He wrote a note that henceforward these men will be conducting the initiations or whatever.

The men who were present understood the situation. They knew it was temporary and that Srila Prabhupada was still present and was the guru and they were just helping him with this process of initiation this way.

Along comes Mr. Desai twenty some odd years later and he sees this letter and comes to his own conclusion, without consulting the sadhus. The sadhus all say "this is what Prabhupada wanted, gurus, not ritvik gurus" and they quote Prabhupada and sastra. Guru, sadhu and sastra, all are in agreement. But Mr. Desai says, "No, I reject sadhu advice. The Prabhupada disciples who were personally there are ALL wrong! Each and every one of them practically. I can tell by my own highly advanced intellect that they have not understood Prabhupada because I am a sadhu and I read Prabhupada's books and they are sastra so I have my own system of guru, sadhu and sastra. In fact he even rejects the current gurus who are around and doesn't read sastra in the company of sadhus so he misunderstands all three, rejecting guru sadhu and sastra. And his followers bash Back to Prabhupada magazines instead of Bibles much in the same way as fanatical so-called Christians who don't have any philosophy. Srila Prabhupada said religion without philosophy is mental speculation or fanaticism. This pretty much sums up Desai and the revivalists.

Go ahead and follow them guruvani, but don't claim to be in ISKCON. ISKCON will never be fooled by such cheaters and offenders.

[theist]

 

Frankly, we could care less about your little opinion.

 

We are concerned with what Srila Prabhupada gave, not what your personal whims are.

 

Who is "we"? You and your other multiples that you share that body with?

[Guruvani]

 

He didn't start a ritvik system designed to last ten thousand years, this is the speculation of Mr. Desai. He was toward "the fag end of his life" and wanted help conducting initiations, so he used 11 men to help him do this, this is called "ritvik" initiation. He wrote a note that henceforward these men will be conducting the initiations or whatever.

The men who were present understood the situation. They knew it was temporary and that Srila Prabhupada was still present and was the guru and they were just helping him with this process of initiation this way.

Along comes Mr. Desai twenty some odd years later and he sees this letter and comes to his own conclusion, without consulting the sadhus. The sadhus all say "this is what Prabhupada wanted, gurus, not ritvik gurus" and they quote Prabhupada and sastra. Guru, sadhu and sastra, all are in agreement. But Mr. Desai says, "No, I reject sadhu advice. The Prabhupada disciples who were personally there are ALL wrong! Each and every one of them practically. I can tell by my own highly advanced intellect that they have not understood Prabhupada because I am a sadhu and I read Prabhupada's books and they are sastra so I have my own system of guru, sadhu and sastra. In fact he even rejects the current gurus who are around and doesn't read sastra in the company of sadhus so he misunderstands all three, rejecting guru sadhu and sastra. And his followers bash Back to Prabhupada magazines instead of Bibles much in the same way as fanatical so-called Christians who don't have any philosophy. Srila Prabhupada said religion without philosophy is mental speculation or fanaticism. This pretty much sums up Desai and the revivalists.

Go ahead and follow them guruvani, but don't claim to be in ISKCON. ISKCON will never be fooled by such cheaters and offenders.

 

the problem with your theory is that Srila Prabhupada already had a system in place for initiating discples that had been going on for several years in ISKCON. There was no need for Srila Prabhupada to change that in his last days. The system was already working for several years.

 

Srila Prabhupada appointed the ritviks when the GBC deputed Satsvarupa das Goswami to inquite from Srila Prabhupada how initiations would go on after his passing.

 

 

May 28, 1977 Vridavan, India Krsna-Balarama Temple

 

 

 

Satsvarupa Goswami:

Then our next question concerns initiations in the future,

particularly at that time when you are no longer with us. We want to know how

first and second initiation(s) would be conducted?

Srila Prabhupada:

Yes. I shall recommend some of you. After this is settled up

I shall recommend some of you to act as officiating acarya(s).

Tamal Krsna Goswami:

Is that called ritvik acarya?

Srila Prabhupada:

"ritvik. Yes".

 

 

So, when the GBC inquired how initiations would go on after the passing of Srila Prabhupada the answer was "ritvik".

 

The time line for how long it finally took devotees to sort out the mess and the confusions that these 11 created with the zonal guru system is not the question.

 

Krishnakant desai was not some founder of the ritvik movement.

There were many devotees who accepted the ritvik system long before Krishnakant desai was anybody.

 

Senior disciples like Hansadutta, Yashodanandan and hundreds of disciples of Srila Prabhupada accept the ritvik system.

 

So, you have a very shallow understanding of the history of ISKCON and the ritvik system.

 

Obviously, you are not informed enough to make the wise decision and have been duped by unauthorized gurus who are acting without sanction.

[Guruvani]

 

Who is "we"? You and your other multiples that you share that body with?

 

we, the thousands of ritvik proponents on planet Earth.

[Guest guest]

It's as I thought. Formal diksa requirement has been and always will be the disturbance that tears apart every vaisnava group and math.

It is a disturbance because a bona fide acarya does not always appear.

So many quotes have shown formal diksa not to be an absolute requirement.

Therefore ritviks are not.

[theist]

 

It's as I thought. Formal diksa requirement has been and always will be the disturbance that tears apart every vaisnava group and math.

It is a disturbance because a bona fide acarya does not always appear.

So many quotes have shown formal diksa not to be an absolute requirement.

Therefore ritviks are not.

 

And the interesting thing is Guruvani has been one of those to show formal diksa is not mandatory. In any case those instructions of Srila Prabhupada were iskcon specific but the iskcon institution is far too small to encapsulate the Absolute.

 

Also there is no need for anyone to claim to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada or any other representitive of Krsna. But it is an imperative that we all learn to take up the discipline that they prescribe to humanity. The way we live our lives both externally and internally will determine who is a disciple, a parttime follower, a general wellwisher or whatever. This is what the Lord will recognize. There is absolutely no need for our mouths to make declarations to others about our being disciples of this person or that. We must speak with our actions.

[Guruvani]

 

And the interesting thing is Guruvani has been one of those to show formal diksa is not mandatory. In any case those instructions of Srila Prabhupada were iskcon specific but the iskcon institution is far too small to encapsulate the Absolute.

 

Also there is no need for anyone to claim to be a disciple of Srila Prabhupada or any other representitive of Krsna. But it is an imperative that we all learn to take up the discipline that they prescribe to humanity. The way we live our lives both externally and internally will determine who is a disciple, a parttime follower, a general wellwisher or whatever. This is what the Lord will recognize. There is absolutely no need for our mouths to make declarations to others about our being disciples of this person or that. We must speak with our actions.

 

I agree.

[Guest guest]

Really it seems that everyone just wants to do what they want. Because they don't want to answer to any higher authority they simply claim to be under the guidance and shelter of a Guru that is no longer physically present. Thus, they are allotted their own minute jaivik independence. It's another form of maya in my humble opinion. Real spiritual advancement comes from being under the direct shelter of a living devotee of the lord. To think that you will make genuine advancement without being under a living Guru of some group or another and instead choosing to follow the ritvik ideology is just another form of MAYA.

 

Such a shame things are turning out like this. ISKCON could be fine, it just needs the guidance of a pure devotee. If ISKCON let another pure devotee manage ISKCON then this mess wouldn't be there to begin with. You need association, that is the main thing. If your ego is so big that you think you can understand srila prabhupadas books, then go ahead, but really without a guru who is truly tadatmik with srila prabhupada you won't be going anywhere

[suchandra]

 

Real spiritual advancement comes from being under the direct shelter of a living devotee of the lord.

So all your godbrothers/-sisters who with so much effort give you all kind of siksa, guidance and practical example, this is all worthless, useless and not important - only a living guru can give you real guidance?

[Guest guest]

I think logically it would follow that if my godbrothers or godsisters were giving me spiritual 'guidance' then all the credit would obviously go to my Guru as they, being my godbrothers/sisters, are also under His shelter. Of course that means we should still respect them, however there is a vast difference between giving respect to some godbrothers who may give some guidance vs. giving respect to Guru. Also, it is imperative to be under direct guidance of a living Guru and to be with Him. Ever heard of Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu by Rupa Goswami Prabhupad? When he describes the 64 types of devotion, the first two are taking shelter of a bonafide Guru and serving him intimately. I have learnt more about Srila Prabhupada's internal mood from serving my Guru than from my entire childhood and young adult life spent hearing drawn out remembrances of his disciples pastimes with Him from 30+ years ago and that despite how many times I read Srila Prabhupad's books, I didn't get nearly as much as I did when I heard from my Guru. I don't want this to degrade into a discussion about irrelevant points, but this Satsvarupa thing goes to show that there is certainly something wrong with ISKCON, and that though I do agree it is a part of his legacy, its a shame it had to turn out the way it has. Furthermore, it also shows that whatever is indeed happening is clearly not what Srila Prabhupada had intended and that vast correctionary measures are surely in need.

[suchandra]

 

Furthermore, it also shows that whatever is indeed happening is clearly not what Srila Prabhupada had intended and that vast correctionary measures are surely in need.

 

But here you say it yourself, what could it be precisely what Prabhupada not had intended, first of all that people take positions which they are not qualified for. Basically a spiritual movement is ruined when the leaders are not pure devotees. Things are'nt that complicated.

[Guruvani]

 

but this Satsvarupa thing goes to show that there is certainly something wrong with ISKCON, .

 

no, it shows that there is something wrong with Satsvarupa.

 

when your guru dies then what are you going to do?

then, you won't have a living guru anymore and your spiritual progress with thus come to a halt.

 

you people talk as if your "guru" is going to live forever in his body.

 

If the living guru is so indespensible then why did Savarupa Damoradar Goswami send all the people who came to see Mahaprabhu back home with instructions to study Srimad Bhagavatam?

 

Why didn't he just bring everyone in for personal association with Mahaprabhu if that was so much better than learning the lessons of Srimad Bhagavatam?

 

no, most of them didn't even get to meet Mahaprabhu.

They were instructed to go back home and make a study of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

do you even know the philosophy of Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Or, is loitering around your guru good enough for you?

[Guest guest]

Umm... wasn't it Mahaprabhu himself who heard the Bhagavatam from Gadadhara Pandit?

 

And, the point is, at least they went to see Mahaprabhu and they got their instruction to study Bhagavatam.

 

About your whole point about a Guru 'dying' well... I'll do what Prabhupada disciples ought to have done when Srila Prabhupada left... continue to seek saintly association which brings them closer to their diksa guru. And fortunately, because of my closeness in my heart to my Guru, He will guide me accordingly. I know his desire is that we should continue to nurture our bhakti lata bija by remaining in the association of saintly devotees. That he has told us.

 

I know personally, that I make much more advancement in the company of the living saints than without.

 

Also, I am not going to reprint the scores of verses from SB and CC stating the need for saintly association and taking shelter of a living saint.

 

Yes, the movement is ruined when the leaders are not pure devotees. That's why a PURE DEVOTEE ought to be a leader in ISKCON. But due to propaganda and politics from ISKCON those who ought to run ISKCON aren't. I've seen you defeated so many times on this point, I don't think I'll bother wasting time answering you on it. It's just sad to see you here misguiding so many other people.

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada is the leader of ISKCON.

We don't any other leader, just some followers.

[Guest guest]

 

Really it seems that everyone just wants to do what they want. Because they don't want to answer to any higher authority they simply claim to be under the guidance and shelter of a Guru that is no longer physically present. Thus, they are allotted their own minute jaivik independence. It's another form of maya in my humble opinion. Real spiritual advancement comes from being under the direct shelter of a living devotee of the lord. To think that you will make genuine advancement without being under a living Guru of some group or another and instead choosing to follow the ritvik ideology is just another form of MAYA.

 

Such a shame things are turning out like this. ISKCON could be fine, it just needs the guidance of a pure devotee. If ISKCON let another pure devotee manage ISKCON then this mess wouldn't be there to begin with. You need association, that is the main thing. If your ego is so big that you think you can understand srila prabhupadas books, then go ahead, but really without a guru who is truly tadatmik with srila prabhupada you won't be going anywhere

To conceive of the spiritual master as an ordinary being - to preceive him as dead because he has left his body - is spiritual blindness. The guru is eternal , as indeed are all of us.

Death is an illusion. So the spiritual master is living, whether physically embodied or not. That we need a physical presence is not to our credit.

[Guest guest]

I agree that the Spiritual Master ought not to be conceived of as living or dead. He is eternal, no doubt. However, who can see him? Who can truly understand and express his inner mood? Not any ordinary person. To think that we are capable of understanding the spiritual master's mood is merely an expression of our false ego. Just look at people who were so close to him, like Satsvarupa. If you will say that any certain pure devotee has not been associated with prabhupada physically and that he cannot possibly know Srila Prabhupadas's mood, to that I ask, 'so.. because satsvarupa was so close to prabhupada he knew his mood? That's why he is coming out with books like this?'

 

This is the whole point of SIKSA -- to come closer to our diksa guru, through someone who is qualified and knows your diksa gurus original intention. If any bonafide Guru were to run ISKCON, that's what you'd feel, closer to Srila Prabhupada, instead of having these bogus Gurus (satsvarupa, etc.) drown you in the illusion that reading and propogating these sex novels are something pleasing to prabhupada. If a pure devotee were running ISKCON, these things would never happen in the first place!

[theist]

 

About your whole point about a Guru 'dying' well... I'll do what Prabhupada disciples ought to have done when Srila Prabhupada left... continue to seek saintly association which brings them closer to their diksa guru. And fortunately, because of my closeness in my heart to my Guru, He will guide me accordingly.

 

Gee partner in case you haven't been listening that is exactly what Srila Pabhupada's disciples have been telling you and your brethren all these years that that is what they are trying to do and they have been met with only a chorus of "You need a living guru."

[krsna]

From Jaiva Dharma

by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

 

 

Vijaya-kumara: Now please explain the eighth offense and thus

make us happy.

 

Babaji: It is a great offense to consider the chanting of the

Hare Krsna mantra to be equal to following the varnasrama-dharma,

giving charity, performing religious ceremonies, following austere

vows, practicing renunciation and performing fire sacrifices,

astanga-yoga and other like deeds, which are all materialistic

auspicious activities. These and the other pious deeds described

in the scriptures are all material activities. However, the holyname of the Lord is beyond the world of matter. The piousactivities described here are all means to attain certain goals.The final goal is spiritual in nature. All these pious deeds are

means. They are not goals. However, the holy name of Hari is a

means during the period of sadhana-bhakti, and a final goal when

the devotee reaps the fruit of his spiritual activities. Therefore

ordinary material pious activities are not equal to chanting the

holy name of Lord Hari. A person who thinks ordinary material

pious activities are equal to chanting the holy name of Lord Hari

commits an offense to the holy name. Material pious deeds bring

only very small and pathetic benefits. A person who prays that the

holy name grant him these pathetic material benefits commits an

offense to the holy name. And why not? Such a persons thinks

material pious deeds are equal to chanting the holy name. A person

who knows that material pious deeds bring only small and pathetic

results and who understands that the holy name of Lord Hari is

perfectly spiritual has the knowledge called 'abhidheya-jnana

(knowledge of how one makes spiritual advancement by engaging in

devotional service).

Vijaya-kumara: O master, now I understand that nothing is

equal to the holy name of Lord Hari. Now please explain the ninth

offense. My heart thirsts to hear of it.

Babaji: The Vedas teach that the chanting of Lord Hari's holy

name is the best of all spiritual activities. A person who has

faith in unalloyed devotional service is naturally qualified to

chant the holy name of Lord Hari. Persons who have no such faith

are naturally averse to spiritual activities. When they hear the

holy name they are not attracted to it. To teach such persons

about the holy name is an offense. Chanting the holy name of Lord

Hari is the best of all spiritual activities. The holy name brings

auspiciousness to everyone. Therefore the teaching is that it is

best to chant the holy name and allow such persons to hear the

chanting. However, without first seeing that the recipient is

properly qualified, one should not give initiation into the

chanting of the holy name. When you become a parama-bhagavata

(great devotee of the Lord), the you will have transcendental

potency. By the Lord's mercy you will have the power to give

people faith in the holy name. To such persons you may teach the

truth about the holy name of Lord Hari. As long as you remain a

madhyama-vaisnava (intermediate devotee of the Lord) you should

avoid the faithless, the non devotees and the persons who hate the

Lord.

[Guest guest]

I guess Satsvarupa, Bhagavan, Kirtanananda (and a whole host of other senior Prabhupada disciples, not only the 11 gurus) have a lot to show for themselves seeing as they haven't taken shelter of a guru physically present. At least Bhagavan/Kirtanananda showed up to meet with SBNM. And though they've got a LONG way to go (if he even knows it) they're at least in the right place.

 

But look at prabhupada disciples who have gone to other sangas and how have they turned out thus far. I know in one sanga, urukrama (now padmanabh mhj) and Bhagavat Prabhu and a whole host of other prabhupada disciples are definately making substantial progress compared to ISKCON. I'm sure there are other prabhupada disciples in other gaudiya mathas who also are doing quite well.

 

Point is, you're not going to convince me.

 

ISKCON is withering away unfortunately despite the veil of success which it wears so sharply. It's a shame Prabhupada's mission is going down like this. But face it, last time I saw the worldwide sankirtan newsletter book distribution must have been one of the lowest for the BBT. I mean, it was sad.

 

If you really want to save Prabhupada's mission, devotees in the temples need to have some understanding of what is it they actually believe. They need to be hearing from the lips of a divine pure devotee. There's a reason sravanam comes first in nava anga bhakti. I want to save prabhupadas mission as much as the next man, but I think we need to take a hollistic and comprehensive approach. And that comes down to association with a pure devotee. There's a host more I could speak on the issue, but I really don't have the time. It's all lost without a pure devotee, period.

[Guruvani]

I think Satsvarupa as well as many other "senior" devotees of Srila Prabhupada and other senior Vaishnavas are all living proof that having physical proximity to the guru or acharya is not any real special advantage.

 

Many of the really nicest and best ISKCON devotees are not the ones that had the most physical association with Srila Prabhupada.

 

There is example after example in ISKCON, the Gaudiya Matha, SCSMatha and everywhere that physical proximity is not really any super-special advantage. Many of these intimate associates of Srila Prabhupada, Sridhar Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja etc. etc are all testimony that there is no special magic in physical proximity to the spiritual master.

 

The most intimate connection with the acharya is through his books and instructions. That is the direct route straight to the heart of the acharya.

 

The vapuvadis are all misguided and misleading as many people as they can with their sentimental vapuvadi mentality which has proved time and time again by devotees like Satsvarupa that "sadhu sanga" is really not about physical proximity but about associating heart to heart with the pure devotee through his books and teachings.

 

Sadhu sanga is not about physical considerations. To reduce sadhu-sanga down to physical proximity is a foolish assault on all the books and instructions that all the great devotees have left for the Krishna consciousness movement.

[Guest guest]

 

...It's all lost without a pure devotee, period.

 

What is a value of a process which after some 40 years of practice and following a proper guru does not produce even a single pure devotee?

 

Are you saying there are no pure devotees in Iskcon? How do you know that? How did your pure devotee become pure in your eyes?

[AncientMariner]

 

I think Satsvarupa as well as many other "senior" devotees of Srila Prabhupada and other senior Vaishnavas are all living proof that having physical proximity to the guru or acharya is not any real special advantage.

 

Many of the really nicest and best ISKCON devotees are not the ones that had the most physical association with Srila Prabhupada.

 

There is example after example in ISKCON, the Gaudiya Matha, SCSMatha and everywhere that physical proximity is not really any super-special advantage. Many of these intimate associates of Srila Prabhupada, Sridhar Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja etc. etc are all testimony that there is no special magic in physical proximity to the spiritual master.

 

The most intimate connection with the acharya is through his books and instructions. That is the direct route straight to the heart of the acharya.

 

The vapuvadis are all misguided and misleading as many people as they can with their sentimental vapuvadi mentality which has proved time and time again by devotees like Satsvarupa that "sadhu sanga" is really not about physical proximity but about associating heart to heart with the pure devotee through his books and teachings.

 

Sadhu sanga is not about physical considerations. To reduce sadhu-sanga down to physical proximity is a foolish assault on all the books and instructions that all the great devotees have left for the Krishna consciousness movement.

 

 

I agree and I have read quotes from Prabhupada that indicate the same thing. Apparently Prabhupada saw his guru only a few times and only for a short period of time and he said that being too close to the guru can be dangerous because you can become envious and commit offenses. Better to serve in a mood of seperation.

[Guest guest]

 

I agree and I have read quotes from Prabhupada that indicate the same thing. Apparently Prabhupada saw his guru only a few times and only for a short period of time and he said that being too close to the guru can be dangerous because you can become envious and commit offenses. Better to serve in a mood of seperation.

 

Prabhupada was a nitya siddha for gods sake! You can't just imitate that. And, humbly, I think all those prabhupada disciples faired quite well when they were with him, and they went off course when they were away from him. Sure, there are those fortunate souls who were able to serve him from a distance, and perhaps they still are. But I think it is they who are blessed with the continued association of a pure devotee. Those who had problems even when they were with Srila Prabhupada fortunately received his mercy and corrected themselves.

 

Furthermore, we need instruction on how to serve in separation. We need to know if what we're doing is pleasing to our Guru or not. We're not capable of ascertaining that. We need someone who knows the internal mood of our Guru and is capable of telling that to us. That is the whole idea of SIKSA. You just don't know what is pleasing to your Guru unless you are REALLY quite advanced. And from what I've seen, most devotees (especially neophytes) really just don't know that!