Is Guru Really Omniscient?

[Guest guest]

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

IS GURU REALLY OMNISCIENT?

San Jose, California: June 20, 2006

 

Some think that Guru is not omniscient. They ask: “If Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada knew that practically all his sannyasis would fall down, why did he give them sannyasa? They are wrong to doubt. Lord Ramacandra knew that Sita would be stolen, so why did He go running after that deer? Krsna knew everything. He knew that His dynasty would be destroyed by becoming intoxicated on rice wine and killing each other. Why did He not stop this from happening?

 

Don’t think that Guru is not omniscient. Guru always remembers Krsna and Krsna is with him. Srila Suta Gosvami has said, “My Guru, Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, knows everything.” If you do not reconcile this, you will have some doubt in Guru. Guru is omniscient, but Guru should be bona fide. Try to follow my instructions and be happy.

 

[Question:] After the battle of Kuruksetra, the women wept as they went to the Ganges to offer oblations for the family members who had died in battle. Krsna was following behind and He was also crying. Sometimes it is difficult for us to understand the difference between compassion and sentimentalism. Can you please explain this?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] These are the humanlike pastimes of Krsna. Krsna is atmarama (satisfied within); He is more than atmarama. He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, so we cannot make a comparison between Him and others. It was by His wish that the Mahabharata battle transpired. If He liked, He could have stopped the war; but He purposely did not do so.

 

[Question:] Krsna is omniscient. Since He wants to give the living entities their minute independence to make the choice to do right or wrong in this world, He doesn’t interfere. But isn’t Gurudeva coming to this world specifically to interfere somewhat with the independence of the jivas; to preach to them and help them?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] This applies to a madhyama-adhikari Guru. [see endnote 1]

 

[Devotee:] If he is omniscient and knows everything that is going to be happening….

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] He knows, but sometimes he doesn’t interfere.

 

[Devotee:] What is the reason? Does he want the living entity to experience some result of their past activities?

 

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] They should use their freedom. Madhyama-adhikari Guru will say, “You should not do this,” but Krsna will not tell them. I am telling everyone, “You should not become entangled in sense gratification.” For countless births we have been marrying, having daughters, sons, and so on; but again, in this life, he wants to marry. You can taste this same sense gratification in dogs, pigs and all other species, so why are you wasting time in this?

 

Even those who are in married life should not be attached. Gradually, they should come to the stage of vanaprastha [see endnote 2] and after that they should take sannyasa. They should give up everything like Dattatreya [see endnote 3], and like us; preaching the mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu everywhere.

 

[Endnote 1: In a similar way, a guru may be madhyama-uttama, a madyama-adhikari in the final stage; he may not yet be siddha (a perfect, self-realized soul) like Sri Narada Muni, Srila Sukadeva Gosvami, and others. In that case, if he is a sincere devotee and if a disciple follows him with deep faith, who will give the fruit of the disciple’s worship? A madhyama-adhikari cannot give it. If one is an uttama-adhikari like Narada Rsi or Sri Sukadeva Gosvami or Srila Rupa Gosvami, he can give it at once, but a madhyama-adhikari cannot. The madhyama-adhikari guru will tell hari-katha and engage his disciples in such a way that they will advance in bhakti. What will be the result? If one has very deep faith in that guru, Krsna Himself will surely give the fruit, and that fruit will be transcendental. Krsna will give that disciple the fruit of the association and shelter of an uttama-adhikari guru. To a devotee initiated by a madhyama-adhikari guru and who really desires to attain the highest goal, Krsna gives the association and mercy of an uttama guru who can bless the disciple with that goal. Try to understand this. It is not very easy to understand, but try. Do not have any doubt about this. Uttama-adhikari gurus are not easily available; they are very rare in this world. Moreover, even if they are available, most people (Guru-Devatatma — Accepting Sri Guru as One’s Life and Soul, page 28)

 

“It should be understood that a madhyama-adhikari, a second-class devotee, is fully convinced of Krsna consciousness but cannot support his convictions with sastric reference. A neophyte (kanistha-adhikari) may fall down by associating with non-devotees because he is not firmly convinced and strongly situated. The second-class devotee, even though he cannot support his position with sastric reference, can gradually become a first-class devotee by studying the sastras and associating with a first-class devotee. However, if the second-class devotee does not advance himself by associating with a first-class devotee, he makes no progress. There is no possibility that a first-class devotee will fall down, even though he may mix with non-devotees to preach. Conviction and faith gradually increase to make one an uttama-adhikari, a first-class devotee.” (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.71 purport)]

 

[Endnote 2: A householder, after fifty years of age, would retire from the association of woman as a vanaprastha to be trained to live alone without the association of woman. When the practice is complete, the same retired householder becomes a sannyasi, strictly separate from woman, even from his married wife. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.7.6, purport)]

 

[Endnote 3: Yadu Maharaja was a very religious person in Krsna's family dynasty, and he had great love and affection for brahmanas and sages. One day he saw a naked person traveling. He noticed that although that person did not beg anything from anyone, he was very healthy and very happy." The following verse reveals the type of people who are unconditionally happy: "The supreme occupation [dharma] for all humanity is that by which men can attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely satisfy the self." (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.6) That person was always remembering Sri Krsna's pastimes. Yadu Maharaja offered obeisances to him, put the foot dust of that person on his own head and said, "I would like to know something. You are naked and you have no possessions. You are not begging anything and you are roaming here and there. How is it that you look so happy and healthy? I want to know this." That person's name was Dattatreya, and he was a manifestation of God. Dattatreya replied, "O Yadu Maharaja, I have accepted twenty-four siksa-gurus: Prthivi (Earth), Vayu (air), sky, water, fire, the Moon, the Sun, the pigeon, the python, the ocean, the moth, the bumblebee, the elephant, the honey collector, the deer, the fish, the prostitute named Pingala, the hawk, the baby, the unmarried girl, the arrow-maker, the snake, the spider and the wasp.” (Srila Narayana Maharaja, Badger, California, June 16, 2006)

 

“Remember all the examples (of the twenty-four siksa-gurus) that were told by Dattatreya. Give up everything – all worldly desire for wife, children and everything else. Give your heart, mind and everything you possess to Guru and Krsna. Then everything will be alright.” (Srila Narayana Maharaja, morning walk on June 17, 2006)]

[Guruvani]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 7.157

 

paṇḍita kahena, — prabhu svatantra sarvajña-śiromaṇi

tāńra sane 'haṭha' kari, — bhāla nāhi māni

 

SYNONYMS

paṇḍita kahena — Gadādhara Paṇḍita said; prabhu — Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; svatantra — independent; sarvajña-śiromaṇi — the best of the omniscient; tāńra sane — with Him; haṭha kari — if I talk on an equal level; bhāla — good; nāhi māni — I do not think it is.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Gadādhara Paṇḍita said, "Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu is completely independent. He is the topmost omniscient personality. It would not look well for me to talk to Him as if I were His equal.

 

[Guest guest]

 

what is the Sanskrit word for "Omniscient".?

 

Where in shastra does it say that the guru is "omnisicient"?

 

does anybody have any answers?

 

I don't remember seeing that word in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

omniscient is closest to the sanskrit term sarvajna

 

I feel it can be applied to a truly realized Guru who is in close contact with Krsna all the time, but with some restrictions and qualifications.

[Guest guest]

Om Visnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

Nowadays there are so many devotees who were personally following your Prabhupada, and by that they came in contact with this transcendental life. But now they are thinking that he was not sarvajna, not all-knowing or omniscient. What was he? Foolish? Ignorant? You know in His boyhood, that Krsna performed so many pastimes in which he appeared like a totally ignorant boy. But that does not mean He is ignorant or that He is not omniscient. And, if He is omniscient, why should His associates not be so? They must be. Some say that if Prabhupada knew that so many sannyasis and others would fall down, he would not have accepted them and given them sannyasa, but this argument is bogus.

It is for this reason, to correct all these misunderstandings, that Srila Swami Maharaja dragged me to the West to preach. He sent me to teach the devotees that they should not be weak, and they should not go to sahajiya bhabijis. They should be very careful. For this purpose, to protect devotees from being misled by the sahajiyas, I have written a book called Prabandha Pancakam, Five Essential Essays. Try to read it very carefully and with firm faith, so that you can defeat all the arguments that these persons are now giving.

Germany: December 12, 2001

Devotee: It is said that the guru knows the heart of the disciple. Will Yogamaya ever sometimes cover the heart of the disciple from the guru—if the disciple wants to cheat him?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: No; this cannot be. You will have to understand how he is mughda and sarvajna. If the two qualities are not there, then he cannot help the persons of this world. That is why his nara-lila (human-like pastimes) are going on. At the root of nara-lila two things are there—mugdhata and sarvajnata.

Do you know that Krsna is the perfect Supreme Personality of Godhead? There is no doubt about this because it is written in scriptures like Ramayana, Mahabharata, Vedas and Upanisads. Krsna is without doubt the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and He is also sarvajna. Why, then, could He not control His environment? He knew that the war of Mahabharata will come. If He is sarvajna, He would have known that the Mahabharata battle would take place. He could have the warned the Pandavas not to gamble. Why did He not warn them? He could have thought, "I should tell the Pandavas, 'Oh! A big problem will come by this; so don’t play this game.' He knew everything. If He had warned them, however, the Mahabharata battle would not have taken place, and Krsna’s plan would not have been successful.

By this nara-lila He played so many games, and He did so many good things for this world. Bhagavad-gita became eternally manifest. He also gave a lesson to all persons not to play dice. Krsna knew that because of this dice game there would be an attempt to make Draupadi naked. Why did He permit this? We should consider all these thing.

Krsna knows what is true and what is false. Asvathama had not died, so why did Krsna declare that he was dead? Krsna requested Yudhisthira, “You should say that Asvathama is dead.” Was it true or false? Only a rare devotee can know that it was true. Ninety-nine percent of the people will think that Krsna was telling a falsehood, and such persons are not qualified to realize what Krsna was telling. Actually it was true. Not only Asvathama—all were dead. Krsna showed Arjuna that all were in the mouth of His universal form, crushed within His teeth—and they were dead. Bhisma Pitamaha was dead, and all others were dead. Krsna and His devotes may do something that we consider improper, but actually His activities are always correct and proper.

A person will use one thorn to take out another thorn, a splinter, that is stuck in his foot. And then he will throw both of those thorns away. You should take this statement very seriously. You should know that Krsna also did this. Similarly, when very powerful devotees come, then, even if some persons are not qualified for certain positions, still he gives them positions, and through them he preaches everywhere and accomplishes so many things. After that he 'throws them out', and only devotees remain. Do you understand what I am telling you? There are thorns in our feet, and also thorns by which we take those thorns out. Both are 'thorns', and neither are actually devotees; but the guru has to play a role with them in order to preach everywhere. Krsna and Prabhupada were successful in this. If those in the gurukula are not offensive they will get some good impressions, samskaras, in the heart—by sadhu-sanga.

We see in Dvaraka that Samba and others were committing offenses to Durvasa, Narada and the other sages who were assembled at Pindaraka. Krsna knew everything. Why did He not warn all the boys not to be offensive? There is something we cannot understand in all this. Similarly, Srila Swami Maharaja knowingly did something like this for the gain of the whole world—the whole universe. He has given krpa, mercy, to all.

Although some are not realizing this, still he will help them. If those who attended gurukulas, who performed bad activities in past lives, had not come in contact with Srila Swami Maharaja—and instead of going to gurukula they had gone to any other school—the same karmic reaction would have come to them because of their past impressions. In fact, much, much worse things would have happened to them, and they would not have had the good opportunity to associate with a pure devotee—to receive prasada from his hand, to receive so much mercy from him, and to have the chance to take up devotional activities later on.

We should never have any doubt in Krsna. During His manifest pastimes, Kamsa and Jarasandha, and also Duryodhana and his party, had so many doubts about Him. They thought He had a bad character: "He was playing with gopis, and even those gopis who were married came to Him—dancing and singing alone in the night. Besides this, He told so many false things to His mother and others." These demoniac persons demanded to know, “Why has He done this?” They criticized Krsna because they had no devotion, and therefore they could not realize Him.

Just as Duryodhana and others could not understand Krsna’s activities, many persons do not understand the activities of Srila Swami Maharaja, who preached all over the world and distributed the Holy Name. He extended himself to lakhs and lakhs of persons who were drunkards and hippies. They were always with ladies—always, always—and lakhs and lakhs were turned toward bhakti. We should know very clearly that those who misunderstand and find fault with his activities are not devotees. They were never devotees.

Krsna can lift Govardhana and He can take the whole universe in His hand. He can eat poison and He can swallow fire—and He did this many times. He took so much poison when He was in Kaliyadaha, and then He played with the gopis. If you want to criticize Him for playing with the gopis, then you should also be able to swallow fire. First we will put some fire in your mouth, and then you should eat some poison. After that you should lift Giriraj Govardhana. Not Govardhana—only 500 pounds of anything. You should take 5,000 pounds on your head. Then you can play with any lady, and then I will say that you are okay.

Considering all these points we can understand that Prabhupada did not do anything improper. He was sarvajna, and he wanted to do good for all. It was not the fault of Prabhupada; it was fault of their bad karma of past births and also this birth. We should realize this.

Ramacandra knew everything. He was sarvajna. So why did He pursue a deer who was actually the demon Marici? Apparently He was only thinking, “This deer is so beautiful.” Sita devi requested Him, “O, bring this deer”, and He pursued it. Laksmana told Rama, “It is maya; I know it. Brother, you should not go. Why are you going?” Rama replied, “No harm. I should go. It will be good for all”. We certainly cannot say that Rama did something wrong, or that He was forced to act in worldly situations. We may think that He was covered by maya and He was doing everything under the shade of maya, but actually maya was not there. Similarly, we should not have any doubt in Srila Swami Maharaja or any pure devotee; or in Krsna, in Rama, or in anyone like Them. We should try to develop our Krsna consciousness, and then we will realize all these things.

We should try to learn a lesson from this. We may think, “Prabhupada did this, and I will also do like him.” Don’t do this; otherwise you will go to hell. You are not Prabhupada. First be like Sankara, and then swallow poison. Otherwise, if you are not Siva and you are still taking poison, you will be finished at once—without a single moment’s delay. Do not think you can imitate your Prabhupada. Be very careful. Don’t take all this weight upon yourself. These things are for pure devotees, powerful acaryas, and for Krsna.

Holland, July 1997

[Guruvani]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 12.40

 

'duḥkha pāñā āsiyāche' — ei prabhura vākya śuni'

jānilā 'sarvajña prabhu' — eta anumāni'

 

 

SYNONYMS

duḥkha — unhappiness; pāñā — getting; āsiyāche — he has come; ei — this; prabhura — of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; vākya — statement; śuni' — hearing; jānilā — could understand; sarvajña prabhu — the Lord is omniscient; eta — this; anumāni' — guessing.

 

 

TRANSLATION

When Śrīkānta Sena heard the Lord say "He is distressed," he could understand that the Lord is omniscient.

 

[Guruvani]

if Narayana Maharaja is sarvajna, then he should be able to make some prediction that comes true.

 

If the guru is sarvajna, then he should be able to prove it with a simple prophecy that proves he is sarvajna.

 

we hear a lot of talk about guru being sarvajna, but not a single piece of evidence.

[Guruvani]

this is the sum total of what the Vedabase has on "sarvajna".

 

 

<center>sarvajna</center>

sarvajña — the astrologer; CC Madhya 20.131

sarvajña-śiromaṇi — the best of the omniscient; CC Antya 7.157

sarvajña prabhu — the Lord is omniscient; CC Antya 12.40

[Guest guest]

 

if Narayana Maharaja is sarvajna, then he should be able to make some prediction that comes true.

 

If the guru is sarvajna, then he should be able to prove it with a simple prophecy that proves he is sarvajna.

The idea is that Sri Guru appears to be mugdhata but Padma Purana says arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir, he is not an ordinary man. He appears to be an ordinary man, but actually he knows everything, sarvajna. Sometimes if it is for the benefit of the disciple the bona fide guru will give him a glimpse into his nature. The disciple will then realize, "yes gurudeva knows everything." Yet, generally gurudeva does not reveal this side for he does not want to interfere with the jiva soul's minute free will.

 

 

we hear a lot of talk about guru being sarvajna, but not a single piece of evidence.

I'm sure that this idea is not a recent invention and the terminology, mugdhata and sarvajna must come from some tika or commentary but if we don't know sanskrit we may have no access to it.

[Guest guest]

One more point to the issue of guru's omniscience.

 

If he is shown to be wrong on a particular issue (such as stating incorrect facts) his omniscience must be viewed as (at best) qualified omniscience.

 

In general, it is good for a disciple to view his guru as omniscient, but objectively speaking such omniscience is quite limited.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

One more point to the issue of guru's omniscience.

 

If he is shown to be wrong on a particular issue (such as stating incorrect facts) his omniscience must be viewed as (at best) qualified omniscience.

 

In general, it is good for a disciple to view his guru as omniscient, but objectively speaking such omniscience is quite limited.

 

Srila Saraswati Thakur would say, "religion means proper adjustment". The question here is how to adjust and harmonize properly. The guru is the representative of Krsna yet it is just as fair to say that he is the "representation" of Krsna. Therefore since Krsna is coming to me through him, then so is the entire Krsna phenomenom. I am coming in connection with divinity, here and divinity is all-knowing and fully-conscious. It may not appear to be this way from our fleshy eyes but we are advised to see in this way.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Well, since Guru is fully-surrendered to the Lord, then Guru can hear clearly the voice of Chaitya-Guru within the heart and take guidance.

 

Perhaps Guru incarnate does not possess all knowledge within his/her immediate consciousness, but certainly, Guru has access to all knowledge.

 

That said, couldn't the Lord engage Yogamaya in His interractions with Guru?

 

 

One more point to the issue of guru's omniscience.

 

If he is shown to be wrong on a particular issue (such as stating incorrect facts) his omniscience must be viewed as (at best) qualified omniscience.

 

In general, it is good for a disciple to view his guru as omniscient, but objectively speaking such omniscience is quite limited.

[Guest guest]

 

... couldn't the Lord engage Yogamaya in His interractions with Guru?

 

Of course, that's just another way of looking at it. How we look at it depends on our level of consciousness. If we think that Prabhupada was responsible for the gurukula abuses because he knew what was going on and didn't do anything or he didn't know but should have --- we will only fall into doubt and our faith will become more shaky. If we think that he knew by the will of Krsna but neither he nor Krsna interfered for some hidden purpose and to let the small freedom of the souls involved manifest, such a way of thinking will help us in our present stage.

[Guest guest]

 

Of course, that's just another way of looking at it. How we look at it depends on our level of consciousness. If we think that Prabhupada was responsible for the gurukula abuses because he knew what was going on and didn't do anything or he didn't know but should have --- we will only fall into doubt and our faith will become more shaky. If we think that he knew by the will of Krsna but neither he nor Krsna interfered for some hidden purpose and to let the small freedom of the souls involved manifest, such a way of thinking will help us in our present stage.

 

There were several instances when Prabhupada was clearly annoyed when his disciples did not tell him about something because they thought he already knew about it because of his omniscience. The theory that "he was omniscient but yogamaya covered him over in that particular occasion" is pretty much a circular logic joke. Using such structures allows you to believe or disbelieve anything you like.

 

It is a FACT that Prabhupada clearly expected his disciples to keep him advised on everything and not relied on any mystical powers to know such things.

[Guruvani]

if the guru was sarvajna in the way that Narayana Maharaja is saying then the guru would also be aware of how many worms are in a pile of dog stool.

 

All-knowing means that the spiritual master knows tattva-jnana.

He knows Krishna, so he knows everything.

 

jnana-sunya-bhakti means that the guru doesn't have all this mundane all-knowingness.

 

such a proposition is really just totally absurd.

 

suddha-bhakti blocks out all this material all-knowingness.

 

The spiritual master is spiritually "sarvajna" not materially sarvajna.

 

Narayana Maharaja is saying that the spiritual master has material perfections, mystic powers and material knowledge.

 

The all-knowing of the spiritual master means that he knows that ultimate reality, the supreme truth and the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Krishna is antiseptic and prophylactic.

Krishna consciousness is like a protective barrier to all this material all-knowingness.

 

The spiritual master is so absorbed in Krishna that he is unaware of all these material things.

 

All-knowing means that the spiritual master knows Krishna in truth.

[Guest guest]

 

if the guru was sarvajna is the way that Narayana Maharaja is saying then the guru would also be aware of how many worms are in a pile of dog stool.

 

You are missing the entire point. Grade: F. Book reading with the wrong attitude - basically useless.

[krsna]

 

if the guru was sarvajna is the way that Narayana Maharaja is saying then the guru would also be aware of how many worms are in a pile of dog stool.

 

All-knowing means that the spiritual master knows tattva-jnana.

He knows Krishna, so he knows everything.

 

jnana-sunya-bhakti means that the guru doesn't have all this mundane all-knowingness.

 

such a proposition is really just totally absurd.

 

suddha-bhakti blocks out all this material all-knowingness.

 

The spiritual master is spiritually "sarvajna" not materially sarvajna.

 

Narayana Maharaja is saying that the spiritual master has material perfections, mystic powers and material knowledge.

 

The all-knowing of the spiritual master means that he knows that ultimate reality, the supreme truth and the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Krishna is antiseptic and prophylactic.

Krishna consciousness is like a protective barrier to all this material all-knowingness.

 

The spiritual master is so absorbed in Krishna that he is unaware of all these material things.

 

All-knowing means that the spiritual master knows Krishna in truth.

 

Sri Isopanishad 8

 

sa paryagac chukram akayam avranam

asnaviram suddham apapa-viddham

kavir manishi paribhuh svayambhur

yathatathyato 'rthan vyadadhac chasvatibhyah samabhyah

 

SYNONYMS

 

sah -- that person; paryagat -- must know in fact; sukram -- the omnipotent; akayam -- unembodied; avranam -- without reproach; asnaviram -- without veins; suddham -- antiseptic; apapa-viddham -- prophylactic; kavih -- omniscient; manishi -- philosopher; paribhuh -- the greatest of all; svayambhuh -- self-sufficient; yathatathyatah -- just in pursuance of; arthan -- desirables; vyadadhat -- awards; sasvatibhyah -- immemorial; samabhyah -- time.

TRANSLATION

Such a person must factually know the greatest of all, the Personality of Godhead, who is unembodied, omniscient, beyond reproach, without veins, pure and uncontaminated, the self-sufficient philosopher who has been fulfilling everyone's desire since time immemorial.

[Guruvani]

Narayana Maharaja:

 

 

Guru is omniscient, but Guru should be bona fide. Try to follow my instructions and be happy.

 

 

translation:

I am omnisicient. I am guru.

 

(sorry, I don't buy it)

[Guest guest]

Krsna Talk: Omniscience?

Questions and Answers with Swami B. G. Narasingha

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Question: Is a pure devotee, the guru or an acarya, omniscient?

Answer: There are two aspects of the guru, namely absolute and relative. On the inspired side the guru is absolute and within his own thinking he is a devotee of Krsna. Our siksa-guru Srila B.R. Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja explained this topic as follows.

"By the special will of Krsna, gurudeva is a delegated power. If we look closely within the spiritual master, we will see the delegation of Krsna, and accordingly, we should accept him in that way. The spiritual master is a devotee of Krsna, and at the same time, the inspiration of Krsna is within him. These are the two aspects of gurudeva. He has his aspect as a Vaishnava, and the inspired side of a Vaishnava is the guru. On a fast day like ekadasi, he himself does not take any grains. He conducts himself as a Vaishnava, but his disciples offer grains to the picture of their guru on the altar. The disciple offers the spiritual master grains even on a fast day."

"The disciple is concerned with the delegation of the Lord, the guru's inner self, his inspired side. The inspired side of a Vaishnava is acarya, or guru. The disciple marks only the special, inspired portion within the guru. He is more concerned with that part of his character. But gurudeva himself generally poses as a Vaishnava. So, his dealings towards his disciples and his dealings with other Vaishnavas will be different. This is acintya-bhedabheda, inconceivable unity and diversity." (Sri Guru and His Grace, Guru-Absolute and Relative, page 15)

So from the standpoint of a disciple he should consider the guru as absolute, as non-different from Krsna.

acaryam mam vijaniyan, navamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyasuyeta, sarva-deva-mayo guruh

"One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods."

The disciple says that, because my guru knows Krsna, he knows everything. But that is a different thing. We do not find 'omniscience' listed among the twenty-six qualities of a pure devotee, nor is 'omniscience' one of the fifty qualities of a jiva soul.

A certain section of devotees like to think that the guru is omniscient, that he knows everything, because he knows Krsna. This section of devotees will think that the guru's omniscience means that he may be sitting in his institution and in a nearby place one of the children in his school is being harmed and he knows that such a cruel thing is taking place. They will say that because the guru is omniscient he knows everything and when asked why the guru did not do anything to save the poor child from physical harm they will say that the guru does not want to interfere with that child's parabdha-karma. The neophyte devotee may carry on thinking in this way for lifetimes together, but there is no evidence in either sastra or history to support such a misconception.

Some devotees will say that the guru and all other great sages are tri-kala-jna, that they know the past present and future. But that is only their conjecture. Tri-kala-jna means that the liberated soul is not under the laws of material time, which has three phases of existence; past, present, and future. The liberated souls are not under the illusion of time. A liberated soul knows that he existed in the past, he exists at present and he will exist in the future. Because the guru knows Krsna, means that he is free from the illusion of the effacement of the self (soul). But those who are under the bodily concept of life (conditioned souls) are simultaneously under the influence and illusion of time. Such persons have no knowledge of the eternal existence of the soul, or knowledge of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna.

The guru's 'knowing Krsna' does not mean that he knows everything that is going on in Maya's kingdom. Of course, in a general way, the guru knows that Maya's kingdom is a place of birth, death, old age, and disease. But even at that, he wants to save the living entity from the clutches of Maya, so why would he simply tolerate an assault against a defenseless child who is under his care and shelter in the guru kula? Such thinking is only palatable in the lowest section of devotees who have no proper understanding of guru-tattva (philosophical understanding of the guru's position).

The higher thinking devotees and great authorities in the devotional line think in a completely different way than that of the neophytes. Lord Siva, one of the twelve Mahajanas (great devotees), says:

aham vedmi suko vetti, vyaso vetti na vetti va

"I know the true purpose of Bhagavatam; Sukadeva, the son and disciple of Vyasadeva, knows it thoroughly, and the author of the Bhagavatam, Srila Vyasadeva, may or may not know the meaning."

Vyasadeva may or may not know, vyaso vetti na vetti va. This is the thinking of the higher class of devotees. By the will of the Supreme Lord a flow of knowledge may come down in the Vaishnava, but even he may not be aware of its meaning. Such is possible – he may or may not know, vyaso vetti na vetti va.

Srila Sridhara Maharaja has related an incident in this regard that once while Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura was delivering a lecture, an especially high flow of Gaudiya conception came down in him. While speaking very intensely Saraswati Thakura gestured to Srila Sridhara Maharaja, who was sitting nearby, to write it down. Saraswati Thakura continued to speak for some time but there was no pencil or pen available. When Saraswati Thakura stopped speaking he turned to Srila Sridhara Maharaja and eagerly inquired, "Did you get it, did you get it?!" Sridhara Maharaja replied that there was no pen or pencil available to which Saraswati Thakura replied, "Just see, gober-Ganesh."

Sridhara Maharaja relates this incident in his own words. "What I told you, it is not under my command. It is coming from above me. I also once heard Prabhupada say such. From Vrindavana he came to Prayaga. I also went with him, and we were invited, and went to a big man's place there, and such beautiful, new things came out, that I was feeling very much disturbance that I cannot note them. So much so, that I could not attend his lectures also deeply. Only I felt much disturbance to get pen and paper. Then, I felt very much uneasiness, because I could not mark those words. Then I came out, and Guru Maharaja told, his word was to me – he was gober-Ganesh. That is Ganesh made of gober. Gober means cow dung. Ganesh composed of gober. He could not know these things, these thoughts that came. Even I felt the necessity of going through these things, these ideas afterwards."

"That person to whose house he (Bhaktisiddhanta) went to visit, was technically known as that section who worship satyam. Then what is the conception of satya? Mahaprabhu, and Radha-Govinda, Navadwip, that is the highest conception of satya. Satya is not an abstract conception of rules of some transcendental type. Satya is not such. What is the relation of Krsna and this satya? That he was to explain. And he told us that the thoughts that came at that time, he also wants to see it, what an inspiration, what was revealed in his heart at that time. He wanted to see. That was unknown to him. He said like that. He told us like that. That they are stranger to me, but they passed through me, and I want to see."

"I (Sridhar Maharaja) was very much mortified that I could not know them, and at the same time, I had some inner satisfaction that I could appreciate those finer points. Those extraordinary higher points that were delivered then, I was very much disturbed that I could not know them. So, I had the capacity of appreciating the highness, of those higher sentiments, that was my satisfaction. There is some inner element in me that can appreciate so much high ideas, our Guru Maharaja also wants to have them to consult a second time. That was my satisfaction, and at the same time, I was mourning all through, that I could not keep it for the public. And what our Guru Maharaja wanted to do, I also wanted to keep them again, to pass through me. So, we are instruments. It is the higher property. It may not stay in a particular plane always. By our negotiation, it may care to come down and to particular persons. This is very rarely to be found, few and far between. Gaura Hari bol. That is, in other words, it is the wealth, it is the property of our Gurudev, and not ours. That should be our understanding, pujala ragapata gaurava bhange."

We find a similar narration by Srila Sridhara Maharaja, describing another such incident to Pradyumna Prabhu on November 11, 1978 as follows:

"Sometimes the agent may not know what things are passing through this arrangement. Vyaso etti na vetti va. But it is passing through Vyasa. It is tatastha-vicara. That is Absolute. From the Absolute standpoint, this has been told like that, even Vyasa may not know, but things may come through Vyasa to grace others. This is possible sometimes. But still we must not admit so easily that Vyasa does not know. We don't admit. I told it once to my Guru Maharaja.'

"I had composed a Sanskrit sloka about Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Guru Maharaja was very much pleased with that. In Darjeeling I just showed him, that I have written this poem about Bhaktivinode. He saw it. At that time one Maharaja was like his clerk. He, Prabhupada, dictated and the Maharaja used to write letters. The Maharaja was attendant for letter writing. But one letter came from Bon Maharaja from England with something. Then Prabhupada told who has supplied this to Bon Maharaja? The Maharaja said Prabhupada you yourself have written this news to him. No, no, no. I did never write this thing to Bon Maharaja replied Prabhupada. Then Maharaja humbly took it, I wrote and you dictated, I remember. You were giving this news to him. No, I don't remember Prabhupada replied. Then I spoke, vyaso vetti na vetti va. I just remarked at the time, that vyaso vetti na vetti va."

So the narratives above certainly give us an intimate look into the higher conception of guru-tattva via the life and teachings of such an exulted personality such as Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura and his disciples. The pure devotee is always attentive to the will of the Supreme Lord, but everything that can be known is not always knowable to the devotee. Krsna is an autocrat and according to His wish something may come down to the heart of a devotee in the form of divine revelation, that which even the devotee is not aware of. This is what is shown to us by the higher thinking devotees.

While commenting on the tenth canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, Sripad Madhva Acarya did not like to comment on the portion known as Brahma-vimohana-lila (the illusion of Brahma). In the conception of Madhva Acarya he could not accommodate that Brahma, the original guru of our sampradaya, could be in illusion. Madhva Acarya could not accommodate the conception that Brahma did not know everything – that he was in illusion. But Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu accepted everything in Bhagavatam in toto.

The following is stated in this regard by Srila Sridhara Maharaja in The Loving Search for the Lost Servant, page 50:

"So although Brahma and the other gods and gurus and the givers of many sastras may have given some description of His pastimes, we shall have to realize that Krsna's pastimes are not bound by their descriptions. Krsna is not confined within a cage.'

"So for this reason, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not hesitate to give a description of the bewilderment of Brahma (Brahma-vimohana-lila). Brahma was bewildered in Krsna-lila in Vrndavana, and again when Brahma went to have an interview with Krsna in Dwaraka, we find the same condition. The boundary of the sweet will of the infinite is such that anything can be accommodated there, and even Lord Brahma, the creator of the universe, can be perplexed by Krsna.'

"All these pastimes are like so many lighthouses showing us which way to go. Brahma is our guru, but he was bewildered by Krsna. And Vedavyasa, the universal guru, was also chastised by Narada. Narada was put to the test many times. All these examples are showing us the way. They are pointing out the direction."

Omniscience is a quality of the Supreme Lord and not the quality of the jiva soul or even of the guru. The Supreme Lord has a total of sixty-four transcendental qualities. The jiva souls, however, have only fifty of those qualities found in the Supreme Lord and only manifest those qualities in a minute quantity (omniscience is not listed among these fifty qualities).

Above these fifty qualities the Supreme Lord has five more qualities which sometimes partially manifest in personalities like Lord Siva. These transcendental qualities are: (1) changeless; (2) all-cognizant; (3) ever-fresh; (4) sac-cid-ananda (possessing an eternal blissful body); and (5) possessing all mystic perfection.

All-cognizant means to know everything or to be omniscient (possess omniscience). According to Srila Rupa Goswami this is a quality that even the perfected jiva souls do not have. Only Krsna is fully omniscient. Only Krsna or God knows 'everything.'

Additionally, it may be mentioned that according to Webster's Thesaurus some synonyms for 'omniscience' are as follows: God; the Creator; the Almighty; the Supreme Being; our Heavenly Father; the Lord; and Allah. None of these synonyms however are applicable to a pure devotee, the guru, or the acarya. So our conclusion is obvious – 'omniscience' is a quality of the Supreme Lord and not a quality of the pure devotee, the guru, or the acarya.

[Guest guest]

 

So from the standpoint of a disciple he should consider the guru as absolute, as non-different from Krsna.

acaryam mam vijaniyan, navamanyeta karhicit

na martya-buddhyasuyeta, sarva-deva-mayo guruh

"One should know the acarya as Myself and never disrespect him in any way. One should not envy him, thinking him an ordinary man, for he is the representative of all the demigods."...

 

 

Only Krsna is fully omniscient. Only Krsna or God knows 'everything.'

 

These two quotes from Narasingha Maharaja, one at the beginning and one at the end of his essay are completely contradictory. Then can, although be harmomized by Mahaprabhu's doctrine of simultaneous oneness and difference. Why all the fighting?

[Guruvani]

the conclusion:

 

Guru is not Omniscient

Narayana Maharaja is wrong.

[Guest guest]

Well let's see now: if Guru was omniscient then why would he give sannyasa to people who later end up marrying? After telling everybody in public, "If I was with you, [in the days after Swamiji's MahaSamadhi] no one would have fallen down."

 

And uh let's see now: Omniscient Guru knows that his disciple will dive into the ocean and get paralyzed becoming a quadraplegic, but gives him no practical advice or warning. Yeah that's helpful.

 

And hmmm what else: Oh yeah: on Navadwipa Parikrama an entire makeshift funky tent city falls down and kills a lady. Then Guru sends out a lecture in the GV Courier that says, "Don't tell others what happened here today, or else others will not come." So like yeah knows everything but can't even build a structure to code that any civil engineer can understand if is a good plan.

 

So Yeah right Guru knows everything. Yup he can even control Krsna. Why he could even build a space shuttle and do brain surgery, then go out and play golf like Tiger Woods if he felt like it. That's why Guru needs editors to correct his grammatical mistakes. That's why when you're in an airport with Guru he has to ask other people what language is being spoken on the public address system.

 

Yup knows everything.

[Guruvani]

ok, let me rescue Narayana Maharaja from this dilemma.

 

Actually, he knows that guru is not omniscient.

Just like Srila Prabhupada kinda tricked devotees with the "fall from Goloka" tale, Narayana Maharaja is saying that the guru is omniscient to discourage disciples from doing nasty things thinking that the guru doesn't know.

 

So, it is a preaching device to trick neophytes into thinking that the guru is always watching like some big EYE in the SKY.

 

The guru is not really omniscient, but Srila Narayana Maharaja is preaching in a way as to discourage neophytes from misbehaving when they are not around the guru.

 

either that................ or .......(fill in the blank)__________________

[Guruvani]

if we just talk about Krishna, then we don't get ourselves in a mess with talking some crazy topics about some guru being OMNISCIENT.

 

Omniscience is a big distraction from raganuga bhakti, so the acharyas renounce OMNISCIENCE in exchange for Krishna smaranam.

 

Omniscience can be real nasty.

There is a lot of nasty stuff going on in this world.

 

Omniscience would be a burden, not an ecstacy.

 

If Narayana Maharaja is Omniscience then ask him who is going to win the heavyweight title in the UFC at the next event.

 

I want to put some money on the fight.

 

This Omniscience could be a big money-maker if we use it to our advantage.

[muralidhar_das]

Brahma deva is the adi Guru of the Madva-Gaudiya Sampradaya.

 

Brahma could not understand the full extent of Krishna's power.

 

When Brahma stole the cowherd boys and calves he was being inquisitive. He wanted to see what would happen. He didn't ALREADY KNOW what would happen. He was not situated in a state of omniscient knowledge.

 

Brahma is not omniscient. Never was. Never will be.

 

Gurudev is not omniscient. Never was. Never will be.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The theory that "he was omniscient but yogamaya covered him over in that particular occasion" is pretty much a circular logic joke. Using such structures allows you to believe or disbelieve anything you like.

You're not proceeding under the assumption that more than the smallest fraction of what is said on this forum actually has anything to do with Krishna Bhakti are you????!?!?

 

Doesn't a large part of the formal path of Bhakti involve tricking (engaging) the mind so that we can actually perform some sadhana (spiritual discipline) and seva (service)?

 

To that end, shall we not employ circular logic or any other mechanism which is favorable for our spiritual development?

 

The real joke is the assumption that any of us here really know That about which we speak.

 

The residents of Vrindavana are blissfully unaware of the true fortune of their position, are they not?