siddhanta is based on personalism because Brahman is not only held together by form i

Vigraha · July 15, 2007

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, the Spiritual Master of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, substantiates the fact that all living entities were originally “attendants in Krishna’s sports” in Goloka-Vrndavana, the eternal Kingdom of God/ Krishna.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His [Krsna’s] sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul of a jiva gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God, he begins to get back his pure essential nature gradually”. [shri Chaitanya’s Teachings, p. 323]

The occurrence of divided time only exists in the perishable mahat-tattva due to the phenomenon of past, present and future that cretes the phenomenon of impermanance, decay and forgettfulness where as only the present exists in perpetual Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only".

Therefore no one says ones svarupa body is sleeping in Goloka. Please understand that once and for all. Because of the absence of the time factor there is no loss of consciousness in Goloka once one’s nitya-baddha consciousness is dissipated and one has returned to the awareness of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body that is perpetually serving Krishna) one realizes herself as the endless nitya-siddha-svarupa-rasa body and the so-called fall was only an illusion...it never happened. "Never happened" because there is no past tense as we know it.

The jiva-tattva or nitya-baddha consciousness (the soul) is not moving from one body to the next. Krishna says the soul is immovable in the Gita. The only movement there is, is one of nitya-baddha jiva-s’akti consciousness and not movement as understood and experienced under the influence of material time and space. So from ones marginal svarupa body in Goloka- Vrndavana or Vaikuntha, the marginal nitya-baddha may manifest due to ones choice to ‘dream’ in a separated state from Krishna however, in reality one is never separated from their nitya-siddha-svarupa body and ones rasa with Krishna is not interrupted, they only dream for a moment they are separated, not even a moment.

That condition of sub-conscious restricted awareness is called the nitya-baddha conscious condition that enters the mahat-tattva to become covered by the illusion of moving between birth & death, heaven and hell, past & future where that ‘moment’ for the nitya-siddha can be trillians upon trillions of years to the nitya-baddha condition of consciousness.

Srila Prabhupada - Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna in the spiritual world. But when we want to take Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non Krishna conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world, but Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen, We are simply in a dreaming.

Our perpetual nitya-siddha-svarupa or sat-cit-ananda-vigraha Krishna Conscious rasa body does not fall and can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha. We simply choose to do ‘our own thing’ and knowingly turn our back on Krishna and the perpetual body we serve Krishna as because of the attachment to pursue our no-Krishna conscious dreams, desires and thoughts that put us in the centre instead of Krishna.

It is there within that mahat-tattva cloud, the projected secondary consciousness, emanating from ones original perpetual body, which can never fall from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, becomes contained in ethereal and biological vessels in a phenomenon of time and space (past, present, future, decay and impermanence) that does not exist in the perpetual Spiritual Sky surrounding the mahat-tattva. Such temporary ethereal and biological bodies are provided by the presiding Deity of the mahat-tattva, Maha-Vishnu and guided (constantly tempted through the mahat-tattva by Maya-Devs’ s’akti, the wife of Maha-Vishnu.

The mahat-tattva cloud is a real manifestation like the other three quarters of creation or Spiritual Sky however, unlike the perpetual Spiritual Sky; the mahat-tattva or ‘cloud of the dreaming’ is temporary.

In other words the mahat-tattva is simply the place where the marginal living entities go as the dreaming nitya-baddha aspect of there marginal identity when they choose to have their ‘moment of self interested glory’ of non-Krishna conscious dreaming however, that ‘moment’ can appear to be trillions of years, then on return to ones rasa body, it will be as if they never left due to the eternal 'presents' that only exists in Goloka.

Uitimately it is what ever Krishna wants, He is not bound by anything.

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity, time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning or end like all marginal living entities or nitya-siddha-svarupa devotee’s that are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always exited without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All atma-vigraha ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do ‘jiva-souls’ appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasis believe.

Srila Prabhupada – “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the Spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Even while he is in that position, the Lord remains with him as the Supersoul, his intimate friend. Because of his forgetfulness, the living entity does not know that the Supreme Lord is accompanying him as the Supersoul. In this way the living entity remains conditioned in each and every millennium. Although the Lord follows him as a friend, the living entity, because of forgetful material existence, does not recognize Him”.

What does marginal mean?

To create the reality of free will and loving devotion that never ever remains stagnant in bliss or just being ‘assimilated’ into the Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm as a loving android of Krishna’s, the marginal living entities are all created with two-fold levels of consciousness - nitya-siddha and nitya-baddha.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa consciousness is in the form of an eternal rasa Krishna Conscious body where the choice is always there to forever increase ones devotion to Krishna however, to make that choice factual and a genuine exchange of love rather than a mechanical mindless response, there is also the ability in all marginal living entities to choose their non-Krishna lower nitya-baddha condition of their marginal personality.

This is why all living marginal entities in Vaikuntha can ‘consciously’ fall down from their perpetual body in Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha simply because of the way Krishna created all marginal living beings - with free will that makes ones love for Krishna real instead of mechanical.

After first choosing to extend ones nitya-baddha consciousness from their marginal nitya-siddha rasa body and 'sub-consciously' enter the mahat-tattva and then eventually surrender to a 'so called' devotee of Krishna with the desire to be assimilated into a state of total inactive bliss by becoming an atom at Krishnas' lotus feet, is not only selfish, but is another aspect of Impersonalism!! Such desires are denying ones original rasa body that is always fully active in the devotional service to Krishna.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body is the original position of all marginal living entities from whence they can choose to serve the rebellious desires or the lower sub-conscious nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness that all marginal living entities are endowed with as already explained. The fact is the only way to enter the mahat-tattva or material creation is to ‘consciously’ fall down from ones svarupa body in the Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha portion of the Spiritual Sky.

The mahat-tattva is simply a place where the lower dreaming nitya-baddha conscious condition of the marginal living entity goes when they choose to ignore Krishna.

The correct understanding of siddhanta is based on personalism because Brahman is not only held together by form it is form. All so-called marginal sparks are eternally endowed with an original perpetual bodily form that is always serving the Supreme Bodily Form who is the cause and maintainer of all creation.

Nitya siddha perpetual body and the inferior nitya baddha dreaming consciousness are the two features of every marginal living entity.

"That Absolute Truth is personal. The jivas are part of that Absolute Truth, and they are also all personal. They have fallen from a personal relationship with the Supreme Lord in the spiritual world. It is only upon this foundation that the enlightenment of the world can precede, culminating in the establishment of a truly impressive edifice. Transformational love of God, the personal philosophy of Krishna consciousness, needs to be put firmly in place from the very beginning". Bhakta Eric Johansonedited by Sriman Kailasa Candra dasa

Svarupa Damodara Swami: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.

Srila Prabhupada: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. .

Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned?

Srila Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahamsa: If we want.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested?

Srila Prabhupada: So they want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will.

Srila Prabhupada: Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped.

Srila Prabhupada: Just like one goes to the prisonhouse, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prisonhouse. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare.

Srila Prabhupada: The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore."

Paramahamsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

"When you are free from the conception of gross and subtle bodies and when your senses are free from all influences of the modes of material nature, you will realize your pure form in My association. At that time you will be situated in pure consciousness." (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.33)

Srila Prabhupada: In the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu it is said that a person whose only desire is to render transcendental loving service to the Lord is a free person in any condition of material existence. That service attitude is the svarüpa, or real form, of the living entity. Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, in the Caitanya-caritamrta, also confirms this statement by declaring that the real, spiritual form of the living entity is eternal servitorship to the Supreme Lord."

Srila Prabhupada: The constitutional spiritual identity (svarupa) and function of the soul is that it is an eternal servant of Krishna. That is the essential characteristic of the soul not the specific rasa (shanta, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madurya). Therefore one should always cultivate devotional service to Krishna beginning from regulative vidhi-marga then one's raga-marga (5 rasas) will develope properly without any separate endeavor. Because raga-marga is on the perfectional uttama-adhikari devotional platform it should never be done presumptuously or immaturely.

Srila Prabhupada: "It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura “However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas.” - Prema-pradipa, p. 83

Srila Prabhupada: “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

Srila Prabhupada: "Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

The terms nitya-siddha-svarupa or jivatma-vigraha body is the full expression of the marginal living entities individual personalty and identity in ones original Krishna Conscious position eternally serving Krishna. On the other hand there is the alternative conscious condition of the marginal living entity, acknowledged as the secondary conscious state of the self, known as the nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness.

This secondary conscious transmission of the marginal living entity is also known as the jiva-tattva, jiva-s’akti’ jiva-tatastha, jiva-prakriti etc depending on the conditional state of ones extended secondary consciousness one is ‘dreaming’ in. Such terms, even though unfamiliar to many of us, are just another way to describe the secondary nitya-baddha conscious condition that we always simultaneously have parallel to the perpetual superior side of our marginal identity.

In this way ones original nitya-siddha-svarupa body is always serving Krishna in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha even if we are unaware of this fact due to our absorption in the nitya-baddha dreaming conscious condition, which can only function in the mahat-tattva.

The words atma (soul) vigraha (bodily form) is only establishing that the soul/jiva has an eternal imperishable body we call the nitya-siddha or svarupa body that is eternally Krishna Conscious in an atmosphere where no past or future exists because everything is in the perpetual present, as the Brahma Samhita teaches us.

The nitya-siddha-svarupa body (eternally in the imperishable present atmosphere of Goloka devoid of past and future) and the nitya-baddha (eternally conditioned in a temporary perishable atmosphere divided into past, present and future) sub-conscious bodiless state are the two characteristics of every marginal living entity.

It is important to understand that the nitya-siddha-svarupa transcendental Krishna Conscious body is perpetually the original bodily form of the marginal living entity, where as the nitya-baddha consciousness has no bodily form until it is provided one by Maha-Vishnu within the mahat-tattva

July 15, 2007

Can you give reference to 'Goloka Vrndavana' anywhere is the Sruti?

Or is it in Brahma Samhita only?

Jai Gurudeva Om

Guruvani · July 15, 2007

In "the beginning" the conditioned soul is not Krishna conscious.

In the beginning, a conditioned soul is bereft of Kṛṣṇa consciousness and is always morose in his material activities. Later, by associating with a pure devotee, one becomes inquisitive to know the Absolute Truth. In this way one begins to engage in the transcendental service of the Lord. Next, by the Lord's grace all misconceptions are vanquished and the heart is cleansed of all material dirt. It is only then that the pleasure of transcendental bliss is awakened.

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 10.119 purport.

Guruvani · July 15, 2007

siddhanta is based on form?

then what is Krishna's "form" made of?

His form must be comprised of some spiritual element.

So, what is "form" based on?

Imagination?

What is Krishna's body made of?

in fact Krishna is not just "form".

He is sat chit ananda and vigraha - not just "vigraha".

What is sat? (eternity)

What is chit? (knowledge)

What is ananda? (bliss)

Form?

Form without anything else?

the topic of this thread is in fact a false statement that is not found in any shastra or teachings of any acharya.

These "fall from Goloka" theorists manufacture false statements and false siddhanta out of desperation to prove a theory what has never been exemplified in any shastric example.

krsna · July 15, 2007

You enter into Krishna's family, Vrndavana family, where Krishna has got His father, mother, His friends, His lover, His beloved, His cows, His garden, His Yamuna. You enter that, that family. Then you will not have to return back again to this temporary family, which will not stay.

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Pradyumna: Translation:

"O Krsna, O friend of Arjuna, O chief amongst the descendants of Vrsni, You are the destroyer of those political parties which are disturbing elements on this earth. Your prowess never deteriorates. You are the proprietor of the transcendental abode, and You descend to relieve the distresses of the cows, the brahmanas and the devotees. You possess all mystic powers, and You are the preceptor of the entire universe. You are the almighty God, and I offer You my respectful obeisances."

Prabhupada:

sri-krsna krsna-sakha vrsny-rsabhavani-dhrug-

rajanya-vamsa-dahananapavarga-virya

govinda go-dvija-surarti-haravatara

yogesvarakhila-guro bhagavan namas te

So Kuntidevi, first of all she prayed that "My attraction for my family..." Two different families, Pandu and Vrsni, Pandu family, the husband's family, and Vrsni family, the father's family... So woman has got attachment for both the families. She wanted to get relief from this attachment. This is called anyabhilasita-sunyam. So long we have got family attachment, we shall be disturbed by so many material desires. But bhakti begins when all material desires are finished. Therefore a guru's definition is given in the Srimad-Bhagavatam:

tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam

Upasamasrayam. Upasama means fully satiated, no more any desire. Svamin krtartho 'smi varam na yace.

Now the Durga Puja is going on. This is also recommended in the Vedic sastra, that those who want material opulence... Material opulence means riches and good wife. For this purpose, sastra recommends that you can worship Durga. There are different purposes, and different demigod worships are recommended. But at the conclusion it is said that,

akamah sarva-kamo va

moksa-kama udara-dhih

tivrena bhakti-yogena

yajeta purusam param

There are three kinds of men: akama... Akama means one who has no desire. Desire there is--not material desire. Desire you cannot kill. Desire must be there. We have to simply transfer the quality of the desire. Instead of desiring material opulence, we have to desire the favor of Krsna. That is spiritual.

So akama means devotees. They do not want anything from Krsna. That is bhakta. Bhaktas, they are simply satisfied by serving Krsna. They are therefore called akama, no desires, no material desires. A bhakta feels ashamed to ask from Krsna for his material comforts. Just like Prahlada Maharaja. Prahlada Maharaja, when he was offered by Nrsimhadeva, "Now you ask from Me whatever you want," so Prahlada Maharaja became surprised. He said, "My dear Sir, I am not a mercantile man. We are in the modes of passion, and You are offering me all kinds of benediction. I can ask You. But do You mean to say that I served You in expectation of some return? No, no. Don't induce me in this way." This is suddha-bhakta. Suddha-bhakta never gives trouble to Krsna for his personal benefit. They are called akama. And sarva-kama means karmis, ordinary. They are working hard to get some result, good result for sense gratification. They are called sarva-kama. And there is no limit of their desires. Just like this Durga Puja, they'll want dhanam dehi rupam dehi rupavati-bharyam dehi yaso dehi, this dehi, that dehi, dehi, dehi... There is no limit how much they are asking. Therefore they are called sarva-kama. You go on supplying a karmi; he'll never be satisfied. "More, more, more." You go to so many businessmen--they have got crores and lakhs--but if you want to talk something about Krsna, they have no time: "Please take your money, contribution. Let us do business." Because their kama is never satisfied. Therefore sarva-kama. And another is moksa-kama. Moksa-kama means when they could not fulfill all the desires in this material world, they, at that time, want to become one with God, that "If I become God, then my all desires will be fulfilled." That is called moksa-kama.

So sastra recommends that either you belong to the group of akama or to the group of sarva-kama or to the group of moksa-kama, tivrena bhakti-yogena yajeta purusam param, you worship very seriously Paramam purusam. Paramam purusam means Krsna. Bhakti-yogena. Krsna cannot be worshiped by any other yoga system except bhakti-yoga. Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, bhaktya mam abhijanati. If you want to know Krsna, it is not possible to any other means. There are many other means--karma, yoga, jnana and bhakti--but if you want to know Krsna, then you have to take the bhakti-yoga, no other. Neither... Krsna never said that "By jnana, by cultivation of knowledge, one can understand Me." They can do so. That is also stated in the Bhagavad-gita. By cultivation of knowledge, after many, many births, if that person, searching out the Absolute Truth, by cultivation of knowledge, if he comes in contact with a devotee, then he gets the chance of understanding what is Krsna.

Krsna, understanding Krsna, is not so easy job. Krsna says,

manusyanam sahasresu

kascid yatati siddhaye

yatatam api siddhanam

kascin mam vetti tattvatah

It is not so easy. But any person, either in karma-yoga or jnana-yoga or dhyana-yoga or hatha-yoga, if he comes in contact with a devotee, bhakti-yogi, then he can understand Krsna. Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says,

ei rupe brahmanda bhramite kona bhagyavan jiva

guru-krsna-krpaya paya bhakti-lata-bija

Bhakti-lata-bija, that is not very easily available. But it is available--guru-krsna-krpaya. Because Krsna is situated in everyone's heart, if you are actually eager to understand Krsna, then Krsna can understand that "This living entity is trying to understand." So He gives a guru. He gives... Caitya... He's caitya-guru. He is guru Himself within one's heart, and He gives intelligence. Buddhi-yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te. To a sincere person, He gives the intelligence that "You accept this guru."

Guru is therefore external manifestation of Krsna because he acts as representative of Krsna. So what is the qualification of that guru? Tasmad gurum prapadyeta. You must go and surrender to guru. In the Vedas also it is said, tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreya uttamam. For whom guru is required? Not for all. But tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet. One should go to guru to understand tad-vijnana. Tad-vijnana means transcendental science. They require guru. Similarly, in the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said, tasmad gurum prapadyeta: "You should go and search out a guru and surrender unto him." Why? Jijnasuh sreya uttamam. If you are jijnasuh..., athato brahma-jijnasa--Vedanta-sutra--if you are actually searching after the Absolute Truth.

So the next question will be, "Then whom shall I select, guru?" Now, sabde pare ca nisnatam. A guru means one who is fully conversant in Vedic knowledge. Sabde pare. Sabda-brahman. Veda is known as sabda-brahman. In the material world all these books are material sound vibration, but Vedic knowledge is transcendental sound vibration. Hare Krsna is transcendental sound vibration. Narottama dasa Thakura says, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nama-sankirtana. This hari-nama-sankirtana is not a cinema song. No. It is golokera prema-dhana. This sound is coming... Just like we catch sound in the radios and television, similarly, you can catch sound also which is transmitted from Goloka Vrndavana. But you must have the particular machine to catch it. Then you can get message from Goloka Vrndavana.

goloka-namni nija-dhamni tale ca tasya

devi-mahesa-hari-dhamasu tesu tesu

te te prabhava-nicaya vihitas ca yena

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

There are different planetary systems, spiritual world and material world. The... In the spiritual world, the topmost planet is called Goloka Vrndavana. So goloka-namni nija-dhamni. That is Krsna's own abode. Yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama. It is said in the Bhagavad-gita--there is information--

"If you go to My dhama, My planet, then you don't come back again."

Mam hi partha vyapasritya. So these things are all mentioned.

So here Kuntidevi says that "Please help me in cutting my affection with my family." Sneha-pasam imam chindhi: "Please cut off. Please help me cutting this family connection." Then Kunti says that tvayi me ananya-visaya matir madhu-pate asakrt. So this Krsna consciousness movement means to cut off family connection and enter into Krsna's family, not void. We are not impersonalists or voidists. The Mayavadi philosophers, they are impersonalists. They think, "Krsna is person. Krsna's activities are all personal. So this is also maya." Because they are Nirvisesavadi, their ultimate goal is nirvisesa-brahman. So anything personal, they cannot accept it. And the Buddhist philosophy is to zero, sunyavadi. Nirvisesa-sunyavadi. The whole world is now corrupted with these two kinds of philosophies: nirvisesa-sunyavada, impersonalism and voidism. But Vaisnava philosophy is not voidism, not impersonalism. Vaisnava philosophy means to know the Absolute Truth as person. Impersonal realization of the Absolute Truth is partial knowledge. It is not complete, because the Absolute Truth is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha. Vigraha means form. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate.

krsna · July 15, 2007

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam, the Absolute Truth is described, tattva:

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvam yaj jnanam advayam

brahmeti paramatmeti

bhagavan iti sabdyate

So Brahman realization is only the sat part realization, because the Absolute Truth is sac-cid-ananda. And Paramatma realization is the cit part realization. And Bhagavan... Here it is said, bhagavan, yogesvara akhila-guro bhagavan namas te. Bhagavan is the personal. So that is the ultimate, ultimate realization. So the ultimate realization is made possible by the jnanis. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate: "If one is actually searching after knowledge, and if he is actually a wise man, the symptom is that he'll surrender unto Me," Krsna says. Bahunam janmanam ante: "That is possible after many, many births," searching out, searching out, searching out, not for the karmis. Karmis have been described as mudha because they do not know anything more than working hard like an ass and get some return. That's all. They have no other ambition. Therefore Krsna says,

na mam duskrtino mudhah

prapadyante naradhamah

mayayapahrta-jnana

asuram bhavam asritah

So we should not remain mudha. At least, we must come to the stage of jnani. Karmi, jnani, yogi, then bhakta. Step by step. So this mudha person... Kuntidevi said, "Kindly help me in cutting this mudha relationship. And then give me attachment for You." Tvayi ananya-manasah. Tvayi me ananya-visaya matir madhu-pate. So this is bhakti, that we have to give up the illusory attachment. Here the attachment is illusory. It will not stay. We want to live in family--husband, wife, children, father, mother--but it is not possible to live here permanently. That is not possible. Mrtyuh sarva-haras caham. Krsna says that "You may think that you are very happy in family relationship, but I'll not allow you to stay here. I will take everything from you as death." Mrtyuh sarva-haras ca aham. So we should understand that.

Therefore intelligent men, they should inquire, "Where we shall enter in family life and we can eternally enjoy?" That is Krsna's family. You enter into Krsna's family, Vrndavana family, where Krsna has got His father, mother, His friends, His lover, His beloved, His cows, His garden, His Yamuna. You enter that, that family. Then yad gatva na nivartante. Then you will not have to return back again to this temporary family, which will not stay. But if you enter Krsna's family... Therefore Krsna comes. Krsna is so kind that--you are so much family, fond of family life--"Just here see. I have got My family. I am not impersonal. I have got My family. I have got My father. I have got My mother. I have got My friend. I have got My beloved, Radharani, and the gopis. Everything I have got. You can enter also. Come. Why you are rotting here?" That is Krsna's mission.

So the Krsna consciousness movement means to practice in this life how to enter Krsna's family. You enter Krsna's family as you like. There are five rasas: santa-rasa, dasya-rasa, sakhya-rasa, vatsalya-rasa, and madhurya-rasa. That is reflected in this world also, the same. Tejo-vari-mrdam vinimayah. This..., this material world is reflection of the spiritual world. Chayeva yasya bhuvanani bibharti durga. Here there are rasas, santa-rasa, dasya-rasa. Here also there is master and servant; there is friend and friend; there is father and mother and the son; there is beloved. Everything is there, but they are imitation, chaya. They are not reality. So if you want real friendship, then make friendship with Krsna.

Therefore Krsna's name is Krsna-sakha here. Here it is said that sri-krsna krsna-sakha: "My dear Krsna, You are..." Kuntidevi did not say that "You are my nephew." No. That is not spiritual relationship. But Krsna-sakha, Arjuna, is related with Krsna eternally. Eternally as friend. How eternally? What is the proof? There is in the Bhagavad-gita. When Arjuna inquired... When Krsna said that "This system of yoga I explained to the sun-god millions of years ago," imam vivasvate yogam proktavan aham avyayam, at that time, to clear the idea, Arjuna, for our sake, he inquired, "My dear Krsna, we are contemporaries. You are born the other day along with me. How can I believe that millions of years ago You spoke this philosophy to the sun-god? So what is the answer?" The answer is, "My dear Arjuna, both you and Me, we take so many incarnations, but you forget. But I do not forget. I do not forget." Therefore Arjuna is always with Krsna. It is not that in this age, this millennium, Arjuna is friend of Krsna. No. He is eternal friend. He has made friendship with Krsna. It is never to be broken. It is never to be broken. So if you want to relish the rasa, the mellow, the taste of friendship, make friendship with Krsna. Krsna is prepared to make you friend. Therefore He comes: "Please come. Become My friend." But we are denying. Make Krsna your friend. Make Krsna your son. Then you'll never lament, "Oh, my son is lost" or "My son has gone bad." No.

So this is Krsna consciousness, the same thing. We are making temporary relationship in this material world, and that is being broken, so many families. Who knows what family I belonged to in my last birth? Might have been something else, not this family. We are changing our family because family means this body. I consider, "I belong to this family," because my body is produced from that family. The next life, the body is produced from another family. Then where is our family relationship? This is called maya. In the material world, there cannot be anything fact. They are all illusion. The so-called family, the so-called friendship, the so-called lover, beloved, so-called paternal affection, sons, they are all simply... Maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan. This was detected by Prahlada Maharaja. Prahlada Maharaja said to Nrsimhadeva, "My Lord, I am not anxious at all for my welfare because I know that anywhere, if I simply remember Your transcendental pastimes, oh, I..." Soce... Naivodvije para duratyaya-vaitaranyas tvad-virya-gayana-mahamrta-magna-cittah. Tvad-virya-gayana-maha. This chanting of Hare Krsna mantra, or chanting Krsna's pastime, it is just like ocean. So Prahlada Maharaja said that "I have learned this art. Therefore, for me, there is no problem. But my one problem is soce tato vimukha-cetasah. I am thinking, 'These persons, who have no attraction for You, and they are simply engaged maya-sukhaya bharam udvahatah, making gigantic arrangement for happiness which will not stay... After death everything will be finished.' I am simply thinking of them." Maya-sukhaya bharam udvahato vimudhan: "And they are vimudhan. They do not consider it that they are eternal," nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. This is the Vedic mantra. The Krsna, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is nityo nityanam, and we living entities, we are also nitya. We are plural number; Krsna is one, singular number. Cetanas cetananam. Eternal and living, not dead. We are not dead. Krsna is also not dead. We do not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire. So why you have accepted this death? This is inquiry. Athato brahma-jijnasa. Unless this inquiry comes into the mind of a human being, he's an ass. Yasyatma-buddhih kunape tri-dhatuke.

So this inquiry should be there. So our Krsna consciousness movement is to enthuse people to make this inquiry. Just like political leaders: they were sleeping, and Gandhi and other political leaders, they made agitation that "Why you shall remain dependent on this British ruling?" Just like, similar... It is not like that. It is an example. Our movement is that, that "You are eternal. Why you should rot in this material world where there is no question of eternity? Everything is temporary." Everything is temporary. So how we can attain that eternity? Krsna says,

mam upetya punar janma

duhkhalayam asasvatam

napnuvanti mahatmanah

samsiddhim paramam gatah

"If you come to Me..." Krsna is saying to us, indicating Arjuna, that "If you come to, come back to home, back to Godhead... Why you are rotting in this material world, temporary world?No, I have got so many responsibilities, Sir. How can I join You?" So Krsna says, sarva-dharman pari...: "Give it up.Then, I'll be in trouble?No, you'll not be troubled." Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksayisyami ma sucah. Krsna is giving assurance.

Therefore Krsna is not an ordinary living being. Krsna is the Supreme Personality. That is described here. What is Krsna? Krsna is Yogesvara. Yogesvara means... Yoga, mystic power... There are so many yogis, they can exhibit yogic power--anima, laghima, prapti-siddhi. So, so many--asta-siddhi-yoga--not these ordinary yogis, simply practicing some asana, but real yoga means to get this perfection, anima, anu, to become very, very... We are very small. So the yogic power... They can give up this material body, and in their spiritual body they can enter anywhere, through a hole. That is called anima-siddhi. Similarly, laghima-siddhi: they can become very light, walking on the water. That is called laghima-siddhi. Mahima-siddhi: to becoming, become very big also. There are so many siddhis. So we are not very much interested with these siddhis. Krsna-bhakta... Because... Just like a rich man's son, He does not bother about earning money because he knows that "My father is very rich. So if I need money, my father will supply." Similarly, we take shelter of the Yogesvara, the master of all mystic power. So if you want to see some asta-siddhi-yoga, we take shelter of Krsna and He'll show. Why shall I take so much trouble? Why? So people say that in the Western world, I have played wonderful things. But I did not know any siddhi. It is Krsna's desire. He has shown. Krsna is pleased that "For Me, this person has come to serve Me. Now see how wonderful it is." Therefore Yogesvara. Instead of becoming a yogi, you take shelter of Yogesvara. Then all yogic power will be within your control. Just like a rich man's son, if he is in trouble, the whole father estate is behind him. So why should he hanker after earning money?

So this is Krsna consciousness. Yam labdhva caparam labham manyate nadhikam tatah. If you simply... Therefore Krsna, er, Kuntidevi says, tvayi ananya-visaya, tvayi ananya-visaya matir madhu-pate: "Without any other desires..." She is praying. Why? She is not praying to a loafer. So qualifications are given, mentioned here, that rajanya-vamsa-dahana anapavarga-virya. Apavarga. So Krsna's power is unlimited, anapavarga-virya. If we take Krsna's shelter, if we become actually surrendered to Krsna, then all power of Krsna is behind you. And in this age Krsna is so kind. Even though we cannot worship Krsna properly, still, anywhere we can chant the holy name Hare Krsna, and the Krsna is there with His all power.

Therefore Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-saktis tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah. The name of Krsna is identical with Krsna, and all mystic power of Krsna is there. Namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva, nija-sarva, nija-sarva-saktis tatrarpita. In the name, all the potencies... Krsna is Yogesvara, so all the potencies of Krsna is there because the name is not different from Krsna. So therefore, Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, regrets, etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi: "My dear Lord, You are so kind, so merciful, that simply by chanting Your holy name, I get the full benefit of Your personal association. Still, I am so unfortunate. I have no taste for chanting Hare Krsna." Etadrsi tava krpa bhagavan mamapi durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah. So you are so unfortunate that this, in Krsna consciousness movement, this Hare Krsna movement, you are not taking part.

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. (end)

[741023SB.MAY] Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.43 Mayapura, October 23, 1974

Vigraha · July 15, 2007

Can you give reference to 'Goloka Vrndavana' anywhere is the Sruti?

Or is it in Brahma Samhita only?

Jai Gurudeva Om

Another name for the Vedas is sruti. Sruti refers to that knowledge which is acquired by hearing.

Srila Prabhupada - The Vedas are not compilations of human knowledge. Vedic knowledge comes from the spiritual world, from Lord Krsna. Another name for the Vedas is sruti. Sruti refers to that knowledge which is acquired by hearing. It is not experimental knowledge. Sruti is considered to be like a mother. We take so much knowledge from our mother. For example, if you want to know who your father is, who can answer you? Your mother. If the mother says, "Here is your father," you have to accept it. It is not possible to experiment to find out whether he is your father. Similarly, if you want to know something beyond your experience, beyond your experimental knowledge, beyond the activities of the senses, then you have to accept Vedas. There is no question of experimenting. It has already been experimented. It is already settled. The version of the mother, for instance, has to be accepted as truth. There is no other way.Srila Prabhupada – "The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the Spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Even while he is in that position, the Lord remains with him as the Supersoul, his intimate friend. Because of his forgetfulness, the living entity does not know that the Supreme Lord is accompanying him as the Supersoul. In this way the living entity remains conditioned in each and every millennium. Although the Lord follows him as a friend, the living entity, because of forgetful material existence, does not recognize Him"

Srila Prabhupada - The Vedas are considered to be the mother, and Brahma is called the grandfather, the forefather, because he was the first to be instructed in the Vedic knowledge. In the beginning the first living creature was Brahma. He received this Vedic knowledge and imparted it to Narada and other disciples and sons, and they also distributed it to their disciples. In this way, the Vedic knowledge comes down by disciplic succession. It is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita, that Vedic knowledge is understood in this way. If you make experimental endeavor, you come to the same conclusion, but just to save time you should accept.

Srila Prabhupada - If you want to know who your father is and if you accept your mother as authority, then whatever she says can be accepted without argument. There are three kinds of evidences: pratyaksa, anumana and sabda. Pratyaksa means direct. Direct evidence is not very good because our senses are not perfect. We are seeing the sun daily, and it appears to us just like a small disc, but it is actually far, far larger than many planets. Of what value is this seeing? Therefore we have to read books; then we can understand about the sun. So direct experience is not perfect. Then there is inductive knowledge: "It may be like this," hypothesis. For instance, Darwin's theory says it may be like this, it may be like that, but that is not science. That is a suggestion, and it is also not perfect. But if you receive the knowledge from the authoritative sources, that is perfect. If you receive a program guide from the radio station authorities, you accept it. You don't deny it; you don't have to make an experiment because it is received from the authoritative sources.

Srila Prabhupada - Vedic knowledge is called sabda-pramana. Another name is sruti. Sruti means that this knowledge has to be received simply by aural reception. The Vedas instruct that in order to understand transcendental knowledge, we have to hear from the authority. Transcendental knowledge is knowledge from beyond this universe. Within this universe is material knowledge, and beyond this universe is transcendental knowledge. We cannot even go to the end of the universe, so how can we go to the spiritual world? Thus to acquire full knowledge is impossible.

Srila Prabhupada - There is a spiritual sky. There is another nature that is beyond manifestation and non-manifestation. But how will you know that there is a sky where the planets and inhabitants are eternal? All this knowledge is there, but how will you make experiments? It is not possible. Therefore you have to take the assistance of the Vedas. This is called Vedic knowledge. In our Krsna consciousness movement, we are accepting knowledge from the highest authority, Krsna. Krsna is accepted as the highest authority by all classes of men. I am speaking first of the two classes of transcendentalists. One class of transcendentalist is called impersonalist, Mayavadi. They are generally known as Vedantists, led by Sankaracarya. And there is another class of transcendentalists, called Vaisnavas, like Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnusvami. Both the Sankara-sampradaya and the Vaisnava-sampradaya have accepted Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Sankaracarya is supposed to be an impersonalist who preached impersonalism, impersonal Brahman, but it is a fact that he is a covered personalist. In his commentary on the Bhagavad-gita he wrote: "Narayana, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is beyond this cosmic manifestation." And then again he confirmed, "That Supreme Personality of Godhead, Narayana, is Krsna. He has come as the son of Devaki and Vasudeva." He particularly mentioned the names of His father and mother. So Krsna is accepted as the Supreme Personality of Godhead by all transcendentalists. There is no doubt about it.

Srila Prabhupada - Our source of knowledge in Krsna consciousness is directly from Krsna, Bhagavad-gita. We have published Bhagavad-gita As It Is because we accept Krsna as He is speaking without any interpretation. That is Vedic knowledge. Since the Vedic knowledge is pure, we accept it. Whatever Krsna says, we accept. This is Krsna consciousness. That saves much time. If you accept the right authority or the source of knowledge, then you save much time. For example, there are two systems of knowledge in the material world, inductive and deductive. From deductive, you accept that man is mortal. Your father says man is mortal, your sister says man is mortal, everyone says man is mortal--but you do not experiment. You accept it as fact that man is mortal. If you want to research to find out whether man is mortal, you have to study each and every man, and you may come to think that there may be some man who is not dying, but you have not seen him yet. So in this way your researching will never be finished. This process is called in Sanskrit, aroha, the ascending process.

Srila Prabhupada - If you want to attain knowledge by any personal endeavor, by exercising your imperfect senses, you will never come to the right conclusions. That is not possible.

Srila Prabhupada - There is a statement in Brahma-samhita: Just ride on the airplane which runs at the speed of mind. Our material airplanes can run 2,000 miles per hour, but what is the speed of mind? You are sitting at home, you immediately think of India, say 10,000 miles away, and at once it is in your home. Your mind has gone there. The mind-speed is so swift. Therefore it is stated, "If you travel at this speed for millions of years, you'll find that the spiritual sky is unlimited." It is not possible even to approach it. Therefore, the Vedic injunction is that one must approach--the word "compulsory" is used--a bona fide spiritual master, a guru. And what is the qualification of a spiritual master? He has rightly heard the Vedic message from the right source. Otherwise he is not bona fide. He must practically be firmly established in Brahman. These are the two qualities.

Srila Prabhupada - This Krsna consciousness movement is completely authorized from Vedic principles. In the Bhagavad-gita Krsna says, "The actual aim of Vedic research is to find out Krsna." In the Brahma-samhita it is also stated, "Krsna, Govinda, has innumerable forms, but they are all one." They are not like our forms, which are fallible. His form is infallible. My form has a beginning, but His form has no beginning. It is ananta. And His form--so many multiforms--has no end. My form is sitting here and not in my apartment. You are sitting there and not in your apartment. But Krsna can be anywhere at one time. He can sit down in Goloka Vrndavana, and at the same time He is everywhere, all-pervading. He is original, the oldest, but whenever you look at a picture of Krsna you'll find a young boy fifteen or twenty years old. You will never find an old man. You have seen pictures of Krsna as a charioteer from the Bhagavad-gita. At that time He was not less than one hundred years old. He had great-grandchildren, but He looked just like a boy. Krsna, God, never becomes old. That is His supreme power. And if you want to search out Krsna by studying the Vedic literature, then you will be baffled. It may be possible, but it is very difficult. But you can very easily learn about Him from His devotee. His devotee can deliver Him to you: "Here He is, take Him." That is the potency of Krsna's devotees.

Srila Prabhupada - Originally there was only one Veda, and there was no necessity of reading it. People were so intelligent and had such sharp memories that by once hearing from the lips of the spiritual master they would understand. They would immediately grasp the whole purport. But 5,000 years ago Vyasadeva put the Vedas in writing for the people in this age, Kali-yuga. He knew that eventually the people would be short-lived, their memories would be very poor and their intelligence would not be very sharp. "Therefore, let me teach this Vedic knowledge in writing." He divided the Vedas into four: Rg, Sama, Atharva, and Yajur. Then he gave the charge of these Vedas to his different disciples. He then thought of the less intelligent class of men, stri, sudra and dvija-bandhu. He considered the woman class and sudra class (worker class) and dvija-bandhu. Dvija-bandhu refers to those who are born in a high family but who are not properly qualified. A man born in the family of a brahmana, who is not qualified as a brahmana, is called dvija-bandhu. For these persons, he compiled Mahabharata, called the history of India, and the eighteen Puranas. These are all Vedic literatures: the Puranas, the Mahabharata, the four Vedas, and the Upanisads. The Upanisads are part of the Vedas. Then Vyasadeva summarized all Vedic knowledge for scholars and philosophers in what is called the Vedanta-sutra. This is the last word of the Vedas. Vyasadeva personally wrote Vedanta-sutra under the instructions of Narada, his guru-maharaja, spiritual master, but still he was not satisfied. That is a long story, described in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Vedavyasa was not very satisfied even after compiling many Puranas, Upanisads, and even after Vedanta-sutra. Then his spiritual master, Narada, instructed him, "You explain Vedanta." Vedanta means ultimate knowledge, and the ultimate knowledge is Krsna. Krsna says that throughout all the Vedas one has to understand Krsna. Vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham. Krsna says, "I am the compiler of Vedanta, and I am the knower of the Vedas." Therefore the ultimate objective is Krsna. That is explained in all the Vaisnava commentaries on Vedanta philosophy. We Gaudiya Vaisnavas have our commentary on Vedanta philosophy, called Govinda-bhasya by Baladeva Vidyabhusana. Similarly, Ramanujacarya has a commentary, and Madhvacarya has one. The version of Sankaracarya is not the only commentary.

Srila Prabhupada - There are many Vedanta commentaries, but because the Vaisnavas did not present the first Vedanta commentary, people are under the wrong impression that Sankaracarya's is the only Vedanta commentary. Besides that, Vyasadeva himself wrote the perfect Vedanta commentary, Srimad-Bhagavatam. Srimad-Bhagavatam also begins with the first words of the Vedanta-sutra: janmady asya yatah. And that janmady asya yatah is fully explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam.

Srila Prabhupada - The Vedanta-sutra simply hints at what is Brahman, the Absolute Truth: "The Absolute Truth is that from whom everything emanates." This is a summary, but it is explained in detail in Srimad-Bhagavatam. If everything is emanating from the Absolute Truth, then what is the nature of the Absolute Truth? That is explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam. The Absolute Truth must be consciousness. He is self-effulgent (svarat).

Srila Prabhupada - We develop our consciousness and knowledge by receiving knowledge from others, but for Him it is said that He is self-effulgent. The whole summary of Vedic knowledge is the Vedanta-sutra, and the Vedanta-sutra is explained by the writer himself in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. We finally request those who are actually after Vedic knowledge to try to understand the explanation of all Vedic knowledge from Srimad-Bhagavatam and the Bhagavad-gita".

"The Personality of Godhead is perfect and complete, and because He is completely perfect, all emanations from Him, such as this phenomenal world, are perfectly equipped as complete wholes. Whatever is produced of the complete whole is also complete in itself. Because He is the complete whole, even though so many complete units emanate from Him, He remains the complete balance".

Srila Prabhupada - The complete whole, or the Supreme Absolute Truth, is the complete Personality of Godhead. Realization of impersonal Brahman or of Paramatma, the Supersoul, is incomplete realization of the Absolute Complete. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha, and impersonal Brahman realization is the realization of His sat feature, or His aspect of eternity, and Paramatma or Supersoul realization is the realization of His sat and cit features, His aspects of eternity and knowledge. Realization of the Personality of Godhead, however, is realization of all the transcendental features--sat, cit and ananda, bliss. When one realizes the Supreme Person, he realizes these aspects in complete form (vigraha). Thus the complete whole is not formless. If He were formless, or if He were any less than His creation in any way, He could not be complete. The complete whole must contain everything both within and beyond our experience, otherwise He cannot be complete.

Srila Prabhupada - The complete whole, the Personality of Godhead, has immense potencies, all of which are as complete as He is. Thus this phenomenal or material world is also complete in itself. The twenty-four elements of which this material universe is a temporary manifestation are arranged to produce everything necessary for the maintenance and subsistence of this universe. No other unit in the universe need make an extraneous effort to try to maintain the universe. The universe functions on its own time scale, which is fixed by the energy of the complete whole, and when that time schedule is complete, this temporary manifestation will be annihilated by the complete arrangement of the complete.

Srila Prabhupada - All facilities are given to the complete units (namely the living beings) to enable them to realize the complete whole. All forms of incompletion are experienced due to incomplete knowledge of the complete whole. The human form of life is a complete manifestation of the consciousness of the living being, and it is obtained after evolving through death. If the living entity does not realize his completeness within the complete whole in this human life, which is blessed with full consciousness, he loses the chance to realize his completeness and is again put into the evolutionary cycle by the law of material nature.

Srila Prabhupada - Because we do not know that there is complete arrangement in nature for our maintenance, we make efforts to utilize the resources of nature to create a so-called complete life of sense enjoyment. Because the living entity cannot enjoy the life of the senses without being dovetailed to the complete whole, the misleading life of sense enjoyment is considered illusion. The hand of a body is a complete unit only as long as it is attached to the complete body. When the hand is severed from the body, it may appear like a hand, but it actually has none of the potencies of a hand. Similarly, living beings are parts and parcels of the complete whole, and if they are severed from the complete whole, the illusory representation of completeness cannot fully satisfy them.

Srila Prabhupada - The completeness of human life can only be realized when one engages in the service of the complete whole. All services in this world--whether social, political, communal, international or even interplanetary--will remain incomplete until they are dovetailed with the complete whole. When everything is dovetailed with the complete whole, the attached parts and parcels also become complete in themselves.

Guruvani · July 15, 2007

siddhanta is based on form?

then what is Krishna's "form" made of?

His form must be comprised of some spiritual element.

So, what is "form" based on?

Imagination?

What is Krishna's body made of?

in fact Krishna is not just "form".

He is sat chit ananda and vigraha - not just "vigraha".

What is sat? (eternity)

What is chit? (knowledge)

What is ananda? (bliss)

Form?

Form without anything else?

the topic of this thread is in fact a false statement that is not found in any shastra or teachings of any acharya.

These "fall from Goloka" theorists manufacture false statements and false siddhanta out of desperation to prove a theory what has never been exemplified in any shastric example.

Guruvani · July 15, 2007

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur, - “It is the jivas who are the attendants in His [Krsna’s] sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul of a jiva gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God, he begins to get back his pure essential nature gradually”. [shri Chaitanya’s Teachings, p. 323]

this quote has not been verified.

even if it is a legitimate quote the words "attendants in his sports" is not the same as "participants in his sports".

the very word "attendant" does not express service.

Attending the sports of Krishna is not the same as service.

Since when has a devotee been classifed as "attendant"?

Attendant?

That is a term with a very broad scope.

It does not particularly indicate favorable service.

Since when are the parshadas of Krishna referred to as "attendants"?

I have never heard of any such thing.

You cannot replace parshada with "attendant".

Krishna's devotees aren't attendants.

They are parshadas.

If you translate "attendant" into Sanskrit it does not mean "bhakta" or "nitya-siddha" or "parshada".

It definitely doesn't mean "devotee".

Vigraha · July 15, 2007

Svarupa Damodara Swami: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material.

Srila Prabhupada: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. .

Srila Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahamsa: If we want.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested?

Srila Prabhupada: So they want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will.

Srila Prabhupada: Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped.

Paramahamsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position.

Srila Prabhupada: Yes. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles)

"When you are free from the conception of gross and subtle bodies and when your senses are free from all influences of the modes of material nature, you will realize your pure form in My association. At that time you will be situated in pure consciousness." (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.33)

The correct understanding of siddhanta is based on personalism because Brahman is not only held together by form it is form. All so-called marginal sparks are eternally endowed with an original perpetual bodily form that is always serving the Supreme Bodily Form who is the cause and maintainer of all creation.

July 15, 2007

You still didn't answer the question about the term Goloka, you are expounding something to be absolute truth, I suggest if you back up your claims a bit better other than your long copy and paste that doesn't even address the question. Show us where the term Goloka is there ANYWHERE beside Brahma Samhita (that only Gaudiyas accept:) and please don't quote from some spurious purana.

nothing new

Guruvani · July 15, 2007

You still didn't answer the question about the term Goloka, you are expounding something to be absolute truth, I suggest if you back up your claims a bit better other than your long copy and paste that doesn't even address the question. Show us where the term Goloka is there ANYWHERE beside Brahma Samhita (that only Gaudiyas accept:) and please don't quote from some spurious purana.

nothing new

how about if you can that it is not?

we don't have to prove anything to you.

July 15, 2007

Prove it to yourself then

you are not free of doubt

I know

Guruvani · July 15, 2007

Prove it to yourself then
you are not free of doubt

I know

<center>Sri Krsna-sandarbha

by Srila Jiva Goswami</center> Anuccheda 106 (Part 6)

90 The glories of these residents of the Goloka planet are described by the most exalted demigod, Lord Brahma, in Srimad Bhagavatam (10.14.34):

“My dear Lord Krsna, I am therefore not interested in either material opulence or liberation. I am most humbly praying at Your lotus feet for You to please give me any sort of birth within this Vrndavana forest so that I may be able to be favoured by the dust of the feet of some of the devotees of Vrndavana.

Even if I am given the chance to grow just as the humble grass in this land, that will be a glorious birth for me. But if I am not so fortunate to take birth within the forest of Vrndavana, I beg to be allowed to take birth outside the immediate area of Vrndavana so that when the devotees go out they will walk over me. Even that would be a great fortunate for me. I am just aspiring for a birth in which I will be smeared by the dust of the devotees’ feet.”*

From this verse we may understand the exalted spiritual perfection attained by the gopas, gopis and other residents of Goloka Vrndavana, the personal abode of Sri Krsna.

The phrase ‘tam palayanti’ (they protect it) in the verse quoted in text 73 means ‘in this way they worship it.”

91 In this verse (quoted in text 73), the Goloka planet is described as ‘sarvagatah’ (all-pervading). As Sri Krsna is simultaneously present in every part of both the spiritual and material worlds, so is Goloka.

92 In text 73 the word mahan refers to the form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This word is also used in reference to Him in the following words of Katha Upanisad (2.1.4):

“The Personality of Godhead is the most powerful (vibhu) and the greatest (mahan).”

93 Because the Lord is the cause of the spiritual sky (mahakasa) the word ‘mahakasa-gatah’ refers to Him. This is described in Vedanta-sutra (1.1.22):

“The spiritual sky is manifest from the body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.”

Another interpretation of the word ‘mahakasa-gatah’ is that this word means ;that place resorted to by those who have attained spiritual bodies.” This explanation is confirmed by Sridhara Svami’s commentary on the description in Srimad Bhagavatam of the cowherd mens’ sight of Vaikuntha, and also by the history of Ajamila also recounted in Srimad Bhagavatam.

Another interpretation of the word ‘mahakasa-gatah’ is ‘situated in the highest part of the spiritual world’. Taken in this way the word ‘akasa’ means ‘the spiritual sky.”

94 In the verse quoted in Text 74, the phrase ‘upari upari’ means ‘splendidly manifested above all’. The phrase ‘tava gatih’ (Your destination) refers to Sri Goloka. Although the Personality of Godhead appears in many different forms and enjoys pastimes on may Vaikuntha planets and other places also, He still appears in His original form as Sri Govinda and enjoys pastimes on the Goloka planet. These are the definitions of the words.

95 This ‘gati’ (abode) is not ordinary, but it is ‘tapomayi’, or ‘full of limitless transcendental opulences’. This interpretation is corroborated in Sankaracarya’s commentary on Visnu-sahasra-nama’s statement ‘paramamayo mahat-tapah’. Sankara says:

“The word ‘tapah’ in this verse means ‘limitless transcendental opulences’.

96 Brahma and the demigods cannot understand Goloka. He (Indra) says (in the verse quoted in text 97):

“Although we asked Grandfather Brahma, none of us could understand it.”

97 In the verse quoted in text 75 we find the explanation of the name “Goloka”. In this verse the Vaikunthaloka spiritual world is designated by the word ‘brahmaloka’. That spiritual world is described as attained by they whose hearts meditate on Lord Visnu with devotional love (tapasi yuktanam). This spiritual world is also described as ‘para’, or ‘beyond the influence of the material energy’. The name “Goloka’ is defined as the residence of the surabhi cows (gavam). Goloka Vrndavana as the residence of the surabhi cows is also described in the following verse from Srimad Bhagavatam (10.35.25):

“Upon Krsna’s return, the men, women, and cows of Vrndavana immediately forget the scorching heat of the day.”

The cows of Vrndavana are also described in the verse quoted in text 76:

“O Krsna, You protect the surabhi cows from all dangers.”

98 The residents of Goloka Vrndavana are filled with intense pure love of Krsna, and without attaining this exalted state of pure love of God, no one can enter the Goloka planet. For this reason, Goloka Vrndavana is described as ‘duraroha’ (difficult to attain) in the verse quoted in text 75.

99 After describing Goloka Vrndavana, he (Indra) then states that Goloka and Gokula are the same. He says ‘sa tu’ (the same place). “Loka’ here means “Goloka” and ‘dhrta’ means ‘protected by lifting Govardhana Hill.”

100 That Goloka and Gokula are identical is confirmed by the following verse from the Mrtyunjaya Tantra:

“Bhakti-devi who delights the gopis of Vrndavana and places great devotion for the Supreme Lord in the hearts of the devotees, by her own wish brought the highest Vaikuntha planet from the spiritual world and place it on the earth planet, where it became known by the name Gokula Vrndavana.

101 At his point our critic may vehemently object to our interpretation of these verses from the Hari-vamsa (in texts 72-100). He may say that our interpretations of the word ‘svargaloka’ and ‘brahmaloka’ are completely wrong. He may argue that Svargaloka is a specific planet and three planets above that Svargaloka is the abode of the demigod Brahma, which is known as Brahmaloka or Satyaloka. He may further say that the word ‘soma-gatih’ clearly means ‘the abode of the moon-god’, and this also refers to a specific planet in the material world. In this way out critic will claim that the Brahmaloka mentioned in this verse is a material planet, and the Goloka planet is also another planet within the material plane.

To these objections I reply: Your interpretation of the word ‘soma-gatih’ (which is situated on Brahmaloka) is not acceptable because the moon, sun and other planets are all situated beneath Maharloka and Dhruvaloka. Your interpretation of the word ‘sadhya’ to refer to a class of minor demigods is also unacceptable, for the minor Sadhya demigods are not at all qualified to protect the abode of Lord Brahma. We may also note that the Goloka planet is described as all-pervading (sarva-gatih) in text 73 (hardly a word to describe an ordinary place). We are simply astonished that you are offering such a contradictory interpretation.

102 Our critic would like to interpret the word ‘goloka’ as simply an ordinary cow-pasture of the material world. He is, however, contradicted by Maharaja Indra, who says (in text 74) ‘yam na vidmah’ (We do not understand Goloka). Because these exalted persons cannot understand Goloka Vrndavana, therefore it cannot be an ordinary place of this material world. For this reason it is glorified in the confidential statements of Brahma-samhita and Hari-vamsa as an eternal spiritual abode.

103 That Goloka Vrndavana is not a material place, but the highest planet in the spiritual world, is confirmed by the following verse from the history of Vijaya recounted in the Narada-pancaratra:

“Goloka Vrndavana is the highest planet in the spiritual world. The Original Personality of Godhead, Sri Govinda, who is full of transcendental bliss and is the supreme master of the gopas, gopis and surabhi cows, eternally enjoys pastimes there.”

104 This is also confirmed in the following verse which appears in the Moksa-dharma, Narayaniya and the Skanda Purana:

“O Arjuna, I appear in many different forms on the earth planet, in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha and in the eternal abode of Goloka Vrndavana.”

105 In this way we have conclusively proven that Goloka Vrndavana, the abode of Sri Krsna, is the highest planet in the spiritual world.

106 The Goloka Vrndavana planet is divided into three places, known as Dvaraka, Mathura, and Gokula, where the Supreme Personality of Godhead enjoys pastimes with many different associates.

107 There are also many other places on this earth planet where the Supreme Lord enjoyed various pastimes. These places are actually situated in the Vaikuntha world. They are 1. Beyond the touch of the material energy; 2. Eternal; 3. Uncommon; and 4. They are the eternal abodes of the Personality of Godhead. This description of these holy tirthas is found in the various Vedic literatures.

108 For example, the holy tirtha Dvaraka is described in the Prahlada-samhita of the Skanda Purana, and in many other Vedic literatures as well. The sruti-sastra describes Dvaraka in the following words:

“Within the ocean is a spiritual abode of great splendour. That abode is sought after by Brahma, the Prajapatis and the great philosophers.”

109 That the holy places of the Supreme Lord’s pastimes are beyond the touch of the material energy is confirmed by the following description of Mathura found in the Varaha Purana:

“The holy abode of Mathura is different from this material universe created by Brahma.” 110 That the tirthas sacred in relation to the Personality of Godhead are eternal is confirmed in the following description found in the Patala-khanda of the Padma Purana, where it is said of the holy abode of Mathura:

“The sages then performed austerities in the eternal abode of Mathura.”

111 The uncommon nature of the holy places of the Lord’s pastimes is described in the following verse from the Adi-varaha Purana, where the abodes of Mathura is described: “O earth, neither on the Bhur, Bhuvar, or Svar planetary systems, nor in any lower or higher planet, have I seen a holy place as extraordinary as this land of Mathura.”

112 That Mathura is the eternal abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is confirmed by the following description of the Vedic literatures:

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead always stays in the land of Mathura. How fortunate is the holy abode of Mathura!”

113 Mathura, the best of holy places and the eternal abode of the Lord, is described in the following words spoken by Lord Varaha in the Varaha Purana:

“In the three planetary systems there is no holy place better than Mathura. O goddess, I eternally reside in Mathura.”

114 Someone may argue that since Lord Varaha says that He eternally resides in Mathura, then Mathura should be the abode of Lord Varaha. Mathura is the abode of Lord Krsna. Since Lord Varaha is a visnu-tattva expansion of Lord Krsna, He said that He resides in Mathura in order to teach us that the Lord is not different from any of His visnu-tattva expansions. That Mathura is the eternal abode of Lord Krsna is confirmed in the Patala-khanda in the Padma Purana:

“How auspicious is the holy land of Mathura, where Sri Krsna, the killer of Kamsa, eternally resides!”

115 That Lord Krsna personally stays in Mathura is confirmed by the use of the words ‘svayam’ (personally) and ‘saksat’ (directly) in the following verse from the Vayu Purana:

“Lord Hari, the killer of Kamsa, personally (svayam) and directly (saksat) stays in the abode of Mathura, which is forty yojanas from Puskara-tirtha.”

116 In this verse the word ‘saksat’ means ‘in a form not perceivable by the material senses’ and the word ‘svayam’ (personally) means that the presence of the Lord mentioned in this verse does not refer to His presence in the form of the arca-vigraha (Deity). The word ‘tatah’ (from this) refers to Puskara-tirtha, which was described in the previous verses.

117 By quoting these verses from the Vedic literatures we have refuted any conception (that may find it’s origin in Lord Varaha’s statement quoted in text 113) that Mathura is the eternal abode of Lord Varaha. Mathura is the eternal abode of Lord Krsna.

118 The holy tirtha of Sri Vrndavana-dhama is described by the Supreme Lord Himself in the following verses from the Gopala-tapani Upanisad (2.35-40):

“Lord Narayana said: As on the summit of Mount Meru are seven cities that fulfil all desires, so on the Earth are seven cities that fulfil desires and grant liberation. Among them the city of Gopala-puri (Mathura) is directly the spiritual world.”

119 In this city the desires of the demigods and all other creatures are all fulfilled and everyone attains liberation.”

120 Protected by My cakra, this city of Mathura, or Gopala-puri, stands in this world as a lotus stands in a lake.”

121 ”Gopala-puri contains these forests: 1. The great forest of Brhadvana; 2. Madhuvana, the former residence of the Madhu demon; 3. Talavana, full of palm trees; 4. Delightful Kamyavana; 5. Great Bahulavana; 6. Kamudavana, full of lotus flowers and water lilies; 7 Khadiravana, full of Khadira trees; 8. Bhadravana, the favourite spot of Lord Balarama; 9. Bhandiravana, the great forest of Banyan trees; 10. Srivana, the abode of the goddess of fortune; 11. Lohavana, the former residence of the demon Loha; and 12. Vrndavana, ruled by the goddess Vrnda-devi.

122 In these forests the demigods, human beings, Gandharvas, Nagas, and Khinnaras sing and dance.”

123 The Lord continues His description of Vrndavana-dhama (Gopala-tapani Upanisad 2.42-44):

“The forests of Gopala-puri are divided into two groups: 1. Krsnavana, or Krsna’s forests, and 2. Bhadravana, Balarama’s forests. Among these twelve forests some are sacred and others are more sacred.

124 “There the demigods stay. There the perfect human beings attained perfection.”

125 “In this place are a Deity of Rama, a Deity of Pradyumna, a Deity of Aniruddha, and a Deity of Krsna.

126 The following description of the holy tirtha of Mathura is found in Gopala-tapani Upanisad (2.48):

“There are these verses: Lord Krsna, accompanied by His three potencies, and by Balarama, Aniruddha, Pradyumna, and Rukmini, stays in delightful Mathura-puri, which is worshipped by Brahma and the demigods and protected by the conch, cakra, club, and sarnga bow.”

127 These verses from the Gopala-tapani Upanisad were spoken by Durvasa Muni in reply to Srimati Radharani’s questions about the nature of Lord Krsna’s transcendental abode.

128 As Vrndavana is the eternal abode of Lord Krsna, so Ayodhya is the eternal abode of Lord Ramacandra. This is confirmed in the following verse from the Ayodhya-mahatmya of the Skanda Purana:

“The Personality of Godhead, Lord Ramacandra, expanding Himself in the forms of His brothers (Laksmana, Satrughna, and Bharata), eternally enjoys pastimes in the transcendental abode of Ayodhya.”

129 Wherever the Personality of Godhead stays is understood to be the spiritual world. This is confirmed in the following statement of Vedic literature:

“The learned know that wherever Lord Hari stays is not within the realm of matter, but is in the spiritual world.”

From this we may conclude that the place where the Supreme Lord stays in His original form as Lord Krsna is the highest of all spiritual planets, above Lord Narayana’s Vaikunthaloka.

Vigraha · July 15, 2007

You still didn't answer the question about the term Goloka, you are expounding something to be absolute truth, I suggest if you back up your claims a bit better other than your long copy and paste that doesn't even address the question. Show us where the term Goloka is there ANYWHERE beside Brahma Samhita (that only Gaudiyas accept and please don't quote from some spurious purana.

nothing new

Only by humilty will you understand the absolute truth, India is full of bogus teachings and I can understand your sarcasism, I've seen it all before throughout India.

The position of Goloka and its description and the definition of Goloka-Vrndavana is discribed in the Bhagavata Purana or the beautiful Srimad Bhagvatam that was spoken by Vysadeva and written in sanskrit by Ganesa however, if you wish to understand the true Vedic teachings of Vedanta then you will not find any easier method than what the Gaudiya teachings have to offer founded by Sri Chaitanya Maha Prabhu

"People do not know about their real home in the spiritual world. In the spiritual world there are many Vaikuntha planets, and the topmost planet is Krsnaloka, Goloka Vrndavana. Despite the so-called advancement of civilization, there is no information of the Vaikunthalokas, the spiritual planets. " ~ SB 4.29.48

There are two contradictory philosophies concerning the bond between the living beings and God. The Advaita schools emphasize the monistic observation that the individual soul and God are one and the same; whereas Dvaita schools give the dualistic argument that the individual soul and God are eternally separate. The viewpoint of Achintya-bheda-abheda, as given to us by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, includes the basics of both philosophies and explains that the living individual soul is fundamentally a personal form linked with the God, the supreme Person with in Krishna's eternal abode known as Goloka-Vrndavana with a perpetual 'svaupa' body yet at the same time is not the same as God therefore the soul is called the marginal potency or energy of God.

Some foolishly believe that Maha-Vishnu and His mahat-tattva is the entire creation. Many 'Hindus' believe this nonsense because they will not follow the true authorities on Vedanta. Some scholars translate Goloka as a mundane heavenly planet within his persishable maha-tattva but Gaudiya Vaishnavas reject their understanding, We accept the teachings of the Brahma Samhita that was re-discovered by Lord Chaitanya and the life of Lord Chaitanya as found in the Chaitanya Caratamrita as given to us in the teachings of His Divine Grace AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. If you do not accept the teachings of Lord Chaitanya then you will mistake the heavenly planets in the material creation or mahat-tattva as tha all in all and miss out on the perpetual creation beyond Maha-Vishnu’s mundane perishable creation that is a tempory cloud in one cornor of Krishna’s Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti. Thefact is all of us have an original bodily form in Goloka and this mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu is simply where our ‘dreams’ go when we choose to separate ourselves from Keishnas creation. To understand this you first must understand the teachings of Lord Chaitanya.

The exact nature of this personal relationship in Goloka-Vrndavana of eternal kinship is said to be inconceivable to the human mind however, this book will attempt to inquire into ‘what is inconceivable’, explaining why such knowledge or the secret of all secrets can only be understood by those who are ready for such advanced in-depth understanding of creation.

Chapter 15. The Yoga of the Supreme Person

TEXT 6

na tad bhasayate suryo

na sasanko na pavakah

yad gatva na nivartante

tad dhama paramam mama

SYNONYMS

na--not; tat--that; bhasayate--illuminates; suryah--the sun; na--nor; sasankah--the moon; na--nor; pavakah--fire, electricity; yat--where; gatva--going; na--never; nivartante--comes back; tat dhama--that abode; paramam--supreme; mama--My.

TRANSLATION

That abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by electricity. One who reaches it never returns to this material world.

PURPORT

The spiritual world, the abode of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna--which is known as Krsnaloka, Goloka Vrndavana--is described here. In the spiritual sky there is no need of sunshine, moonshine, fire or electricity, because all the planets are self-luminous. We have only one planet in this universe, the sun, which is self-luminous, but all the planets in the spiritual sky are self-luminous. The shining effulgence of all those planets (called Vaikunthas) constitutes the shining sky known as the brahmajyoti. Actually, the effulgence is emanating from the planet of Krsna, Goloka Vrndavana. Part of that shining effulgence is covered by the mahat-tattva, the material world. Other than this, the major portion of that shining sky is full of spiritual planets, which are called Vaikunthas, chief of which is Goloka Vrndavana.

As long as a living entity is in this dark material world, he is in conditional life, but as soon as he reaches the spiritual sky, by cutting through the false, perverted tree of this material world, he becomes liberated. Then there is no chance of his coming back here. In his conditional life, the living entity considers himself to be the lord of this material world, but in his liberated state he enters into the spiritual kingdom and becomes the associate of the Supreme Lord. There he enjoys eternal bliss, eternal life, and full knowledge.

In Srimad Bhagavatam Vyasa revealed that the highest plane is called Goloka. Because Vaikuntha is above all the material world everything is under the shelter of Vaikuntha. Because Narayana is the Supreme Lord in Vaikuntha everything is under His shelter. Then Vyasa revealed, "If we journey to the highest place in Vaikuntha and look towards the spiritual sky, from there we will see a land known as Goloka Vrndavana." Goloka Vrndavana is above Vaikuntha and in that place Krsna is the Supreme, Sri Sri Radha-Krsna are Supreme (Krsna is the visaya [enjoyer] and Radha is the asraya [shelter].

Above Vaikuntha is Goloka Vrndavana and Krsna resides eternally in Goloka Vrndavana, giving shelter to all His devotees. Vyasadeva therefore described that the lotus feet of Krsna are the Supreme shelter of all living beings. Krsna confirmed this also - jiva bhuta sanatana. Krsna said in Bhagavad-gita that all these jiva's have come from Him. All living beings are His parts and parcels. He is their ultimate shelter.

Madhya 20.397 Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Instructs Sanatana Gosvami in the Science

"The eternal pastimes of Krsna are continuously taking place in the original Goloka Vrndavana planet. These same pastimes are gradually manifest within the material world, in each and every brahmanda

Madhya 21.104 The Opulence and Sweetness of Lord Sri Krsna

When we consider impartially all the unlimited pastimes of the Lord, we find that His pastimes as a human being on this planet--wherein He sports as a cowherd boy with a flute in His hands and appears youthful and fresh like a ballet dancer--are pastimes and features that are never subjected to material laws and inebrieties. The wonderful beauty of Krsna is presented in the supreme planet, Gokula (Goloka Vrndavana). Inferior to that is His representation in the spiritual sky, and inferior to that is His representation in the external energy (Devi-dhama). A mere drop of Krsna's sweetness can drown these three worlds--Goloka Vrndavana, Hari-dhama (Vaikunthaloka), and Devi-dhama (the material world). Everywhere, Krsna's beauty merges everyone in the ecstasy of transcendental bliss. Actually the activities of yogamaya are absent in the spiritual sky and the Vaikuntha planets. She simply works in the supreme planet, Goloka Vrndavana, and she works to manifest the activities of Krsna when He descends to the material universe to please His innumerable devotees within the material world. Thus a replica of the Goloka Vrndavana planet and the pastimes there are manifest on this planet on a specific tract of land--Bhauma Vrndavana, the Vrndavana-dhama on this planet.

Everything belongs to God. Isavasyam idam sarvam. He is the proprietor. Bhoktaram yajna-tapasam sarva-loka-mahesvaram. That misunderstanding... We are falsely encroaching upon and falsely claiming proprietorship. Therefore there is no peace. You are searching after peace. How can there be peace? You are falsely claiming something which does not belong to you. So here it is said, sarvaisvarya-purna.

So every place belongs to God, but that Goloka Vrndavana, that place is particularly His abode. You have seen the picture. It is lotuslike. All planets are round, but that supreme planet is lotuslike. So that is in the spiritual sky, Goloka Vrndavana. And from that spiritual planet... Just like the, from the sun planet, the sunshine is emanating profusely. Just like this sun is, is compared with the eye, eyes of the Lord. Not... One eye. Another eye, the moon. It is figuratively stated. Yac-caksur esa savita sakala-grahanam raja samasta-sura-murtir asesa-tejah. Asesa-tejah, unlimited potency, sunlight, is coming from the sun. This material world, we can practically experience. But the sunlight is also emanating from that light which is emanating from that Goloka Vrndavana. That is the real light, which is called brahmajyoti. So in that brahmajyoti there are innumerable spiritual planets also. So in the spiritual sky, in that spiritual light, in that spiritual planets, there are innumerable liberated living entities, and each, each and every planet, there is expansion of Lord Krsna. They are named by different names. (break) Sad-aisvarya-purna yanra goloka--nitya-dhama. So origin. He is the origin. His planet, Goloka Vrndavana, is the original planet, and from that planet, that brahmajyoti, light, is coming. And in that light, everything is resting. And in an insignificant portion of that light, this material world is situated. In that place there are innumerable universes as we are seeing one. And one of these universes, there are millions and billions of planets, of which this earth is only a insignificant fragment. And in that earth, the land of America, United States, is still insignificant. And in that state, New York is still insignificant. And in that New York City, this 26 Second Avenue insignificant. And we are sitting here. So just see how much insignificant we are. And we are claiming "God." Do not know... Sad-aisvarya-purna. This is called ignorance. We do not know how much insignificant we are in the creation of God, and we are claiming, "God." This is called poor fund of knowledge, poor fund of knowledge.

July 15, 2007

I bet $100 you can't show me the sanskrit word Goloka in the Bhagavata Purana,

I'll make that $1000.

July 15, 2007

Your new at this aren't you?

Vigraha · July 16, 2007

ggggggggggggggggggggggg.jpg?t=1184561090

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada founder of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (I.S.K.CON)*photo at bottom of page is the most recent maha-bhagavat of the Gaudiya Vaishnava parampara (disciplic succession). Therefore, he remains the bonafide representative of all those previous Acharyas. Srila Prabhupada’s conclusions on all points of siddhanta are non-different from the disciplic succession. In other words, if anyone can definitively tell us what the conclusion of the previous acaryas was, it is His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Srila Prabhupada.

If one cannot understand the chain of disciplic succession that enables us to understand all the Vedas that the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition is based on, beginning with Krishna, then it is pointless for any arguing.

The possition of Krishna’s abode, its description and the definition of that perpetual abode known as Goloka-Vrndavana, is described in the Bhagavat Purana or the beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam that was spoken by Vyasadeva, written in Sanskrit by Ganesa, and handed down in a disciplic succession from Krishna Himself to Brahma, Naradha, Vyasa etc.

Goloka-Vrndavana is the supreme spiritual abode as described in the Vedas, where Sri Krsna lives with Sri Radha and Their innumerable devotees. It is elaborately described in Srimad Bhagavatam 10, Brahma-samhita, Brahma-vaivarta Purana (e.g. Tulasi story), etc. It is also mentioned in scriptures like Narada Pancaratra (tat sarvopari oloke), Gopala-tapani Upanisad, Garga-samhita 6.15.22, Harivamsa (Visnu Parva 19 - gavam eva tu goloko) or Rig Veda samhita 1.154.6

Just a few references from the Mahabharata

'Asita next saw his guest visit in the region of Mitravaruna and then in that of the Adityas. Asita then saw his guest pass through the regions of the Rudras, the Vasus and Brihaspati. Having soared next into the blessed supreme region beyond the material creation called Goloka’

‘Thou shalt dwell in a region that is higher than the three worlds, through my grace. That region shall be known to all by the name of Goloka’

‘O thou of eyes like lotus-petals, it is only by Brahmacharya, by penances, by Truth, by self-restraint, by gifts, by diverse kinds of righteous deeds, by sojourns to sacred waters, in fact, by severe austerities and righteous acts well-performed, that one can attain their original status in Goloka’.

‘Due to his malevolent glance, the baby's head was severed and flew to Goloka, the abode of Krishna’

‘After the Pandavas win the war and Ram Rajya (peace, justice and religiousness) comes to the land, Krushna goes to Dwarika and rules there for many many years before leaving this earth to go back to His abode, Goloka’

‘The sons of Pandu and the goddess of fortune Draupadi were all eternal associates of the Lord. They, therefore, desired the association of the Lord of Goloka, Lord Sri Krishna. Thus by pure consciousness due to constant devotional remembrance, they attained the spiritual sky, which is ruled over by the Supreme Narayana, Lord Krishna. This is attained only by those who meditate upon the one Supreme Lord without deviation. This abode of the Lord Sri Krishna, known as Goloka Vrindavana, cannot be attained by persons who are absorbed in the material conception of life’. Thus Ends the Mahaprasthanika Parva, The Pandavas Return to the Spiritual World. The Mahabharata

Also it is crucial to understand the chain of disciplic succession of Spiritual Masters that enables us to understand all the Vedas that is the foundation of the Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition, beginning with Krishna. If someone cannot understand this vital point then it is pointless arguing with them.

The Brahma Madhva teachings are one of four Sampradayas based on this parampara system however, if one wishes to correctly understand the true essence of the Vedic teachings of Vedanta, then they will not find any easier method than what the Gaudiya teachings have to offer (Hare Krishna sankirtan) founded by Sri Krishna Chaitanya Maha Prabhu (Gaudiya) who was the 22nd in that unbroken chain of succession From Himself (Radha and Krishna) that continues on to this day.

The Hare Krishna movement is based on that disciplic succession from Krishna) 2) Brahma, 3) Narada; 4) Vyasa, 5) Madhva, 6) Padmanabha, 7) Nrhari, 8) Madhava, 9) Aksobhya, 10) Jaya Tirtha, 11) Jnanasindhu, 12) Dayanidhi, 13) Vidyanidhi, 14) Rajendra, 15) Jayadharma, 16) Purusottama, 17) Brahmanya Tirtha, 18) Vyasa Tirtha, 19) Laksmipati, 20) Madhavendra Puri, 21) Isvara Puri, (Nityananda, Advaita), 22) Lord Caitanya, 23) Rupa, (Svarupa, Sanatana), 24) Raghunatha, Jiva, 25) Krsnadasa, 26) Narottama, 27) Visvanatha, 28) (Baladeva) Jagannatha, 29) Bhaktivinoda, 30) Gaurakisora, 31) Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, 32) His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. to Narada to Vysa all the way down to Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and this is how we know the description of Goloka-Vrndavana.

If you are an Impersonalist then you will be hood winked by the mahat-tattva or material creation as the all in all. Understanding Krishna’s Goloka-Vrndavana IS EXTEMELY RARE even for devotees, so either you’re an Impersonalist or a devotee testing our knowledge on Vedanta.

The Gaudiya tradition stems from a long line of Vaishnava Saints that is called the parampara and established by Lord Chaitanya in the line of sucession from Krishna as clearly explained. If you cannot understand and accept this authority then it is your misfortune, although I do thank you for your proud sarcastic challenge.

In any case, you have only united the fall and no fall camps on this topic at least and I thank you for that – not a blade of grass moves without the will of the Lord. If you are a devotee testing us, THANK YOU PRABHU, although genuine devotees are very rare in today’s world because of the so many imitators.

Even if you’re an impersonalist or Mayavadi or foolishly think that Maha-Vishnu is the Supreme Lord and the source of Krishna as sao many of todays 'Hindus' foolishly believe, thanks also for the challenge because we have to learn how to defeat their gibberish nonsense.

Anyway, if one needs to understand the real truth then start off by reading the introduction to the Bhagavad gita as it is – and chant Hare Krishna!!!

July 16, 2007

Nice picture of Prabhupada

krsna · July 16, 2007

mantra-guru ara yata siksa-guru-gana

tanhara carana age kariye vandana

(Cc Adi 1.35)

"I first offer my respectful obeisances at the lotus feet of my initiating spiritual master and all my instructing spiritual masters." :pray:

Murali_Mohan_das · July 16, 2007

Well, on my third attempt I finally made it through the first post in this thread (the other posts look interesting--I'll have to go back and read them too).

All I can say is: I feel like I need a nap now!!

But seriously, did you catch this?

Srila Prabhupada: “Actually, the living entity is originally the spiritual part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, but due to his rebellious nature, he is conditioned within material nature. It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature. The Supreme Personality of Godhead knows, however, how and why this actually took place.” Bhagavad-gita, 13.20, purport

Did you read what Srila Prabhupada said? Do you take it to heart, or will this point be belabored for many months more?

"It just doesn't matter

It just doesn't matter

It just doesn't matter"

krsna · July 17, 2007

"It really does not matter how these living entities or superior entities of the Supreme Lord have come into contact with material nature." Bhagavad-gita, 13.20 purport:pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:

Vigraha · July 18, 2007

We did not originate from Impersonal Brahman or tatastha - it does matter

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Srila Prabhupada – “The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the Spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Even while he is in that position, the Lord remains with him as the Supersoul, his intimate friend. Because of his forgetfulness, the living entity does not know that the Supreme Lord is accompanying him as the Supersoul. In this way the living entity remains conditioned in each and every millennium. Although the Lord follows him as a friend, the living entity, because of forgetful material existence, does not recognize Him”.

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning. In this way all the marginal living entities are always in their full expression of nitya-siddha-svarupa and that can never change.

All of us are eternally in Goloka since our devotional svarupa body can never fall down as the Srimad Bhagavatam and Gita teaches us. We just have to wake up from this mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu’s and realize this fact

All marginal living entities are said to be emanating from Lord Krishna’s transcendental Vigraha body but have factually always existed without beginning as the Bhagavad Gita as it is tells us. All marginal ‘souls’ therefore are never created nor do ‘jiva-souls’ appear from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti as some learned Vaishnava scholars, gurus and sanyasis believe.

The real secret to the marginal living entities is that each entity is endowed with an eternal Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body serving in perpetual time within Goloka-Vrndavana or Vaikuntha that is up to the individual marginal living entity to stay recognize or reject - there is always choice because without choice then we (the marginal living entities) can never exhibit true love or service.

In this way ALL marginal living entities have not only their nitya-siddha-svarupa body serving beautiful Krishna in Goloka in a particula rasa but each marginal living entity also has a secondary 'self' that manifests as the nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness. This aspect of the marginal living entity manifests when one wants to be lord instead of serving the Lord.

Srila Prabhupada - Originally we have a direct personal relationship with Krishna’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming state due to our non-Krishna conscious choices. In this dreaming state after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu that is a real but perishable reality in one corner of the Spiritual Sky or creation, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer. These mistaken self centered choices or non <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious dreams, are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world"

Srila Prabhupada explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space (past, present and future) that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen. We are simply in a dreaming condition that forgets the perpetual nitya-siddha body one serves <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> as in 'perpetual' time or the eternal present in Goloka that has no past or future.

THIS SIMPLE TRUTH IS THERE FOR ALL OF US TO ONE DAY UNDERSTAND

naimisaranya.jpg?t=1184736623

krsna · July 18, 2007

There is no beginning or end to the creation so in the face of eternity time has no meaning because no one can measure something that has no beginning. In this way all the marginal living entities are always in their full expression of nitya-siddha-svarupa and that can never change.

I Can't understand this because I am too sinful, crooked or stupid???

Even though in the Bhagavad Gita purport quoted above Srila Prabhupada said it does NOT matter,

Who are you to extrapolate the teachings of the founder-acarya of ISKCON and say it does matter?

Murali_Mohan_das · July 18, 2007

You're not stupid (or any more stupid than the rest of us). Nobody can understand these things using mundane words, or material minds. They are "acintya" (inconceivable).

How we got here does not matter. How to return (or get there for the first time if you prefer) to the plane of dedication matters.

Srila Sridhar Maharaja also uses the term "back to Godhead" (it's not surprising given that he and Srila Swami Maharaja Prabhupada lived together for some years and conversed at length) though some would like to imply that his understanding on this topic is somehow deficient.

Param-Gurudev also expresses that truth is revealed in installments. As individuals and societies progress, so Divinity reveals truth to them in a suitable fashion.

Our brains are so small and we are so conditioned to thinking of everything in terms of time. So, while from one perspective "Back to Godhead" is a contradictory term (everyone in this discussion agrees that Goloka is beyond time--so how can there be a conception of going back there?), it is very useful for preaching and for meditation.

We are advised to think of that transcendental realm as our home. We should realize that this mundane world is not where we belong. We are children of nectar and must not be satisfied with swill--we must seek out the nectar.

Srila Prabhupada is clear enough on the topic--the mechanics of how we got here are irrelevant to our spiritual development. The process of loving devotional engagement is all!

I Can't understand this because I am too sinful, crooked or stupid???

Even though in the Bhagavad Gita purport quoted above Srila Prabhupada said it does NOT matter,

Who are you to extrapolate the teachings of the founder-acarya of ISKCON and say it does matter?

siddhanta is based on personalism because Brahman is not only held together by form i

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