siddhanta is based on personalism because Brahman is not only held together by form i

[muralidhar_das]

 

 

We did not originate from Impersonal Brahman or tatastha

 

 

 

 

 

The innumerable jivas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuntha. But when they desire to lord it over Maya, forgetting their real identity. the egotistic principle Sambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities. Hence Sambhu is the primary principle of the egotistic mundane universe and of perverted egotism in jivas that identifies itself with their limited material bodies.

- Brahma Samhita

[muralidhar_das]

 

 

 

All of us are eternally in Goloka since our devotional svarupa body can never fall down as the Srimad Bhagavatam and Gita teaches us. We just have to wake up from this mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu’s and realize this fact

 

 

 

 

Srila Sanatana Goswami:

in Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam (1.2.195)...

<center> vaikuntha vasino hy ete kecid vai nitya-parsadah

pare krsnaya krpaya sadhayatvemam agatah </center>

Translation: Some residents of Vaikuntha are eternal associates of Lord Krishna; others have come to Vaikuntha by His mercy, having gained the privilege to enter.

 

 

There are two kinds of souls in Vaikuntha. Those who are eternal associates of the Lord, and those who have entered Vaikuntha, coming from the outside.

 

 

सर्वं ह्येतद् ब्रह्मायमात्मा ब्रह्म सोयमात्मा चतुष्पात्

sarvam hyetad brahmāyamātmā brahma soyamātmā chatushpāt - Mandukya Upanishad, verse-2

 

ayam atma brahma -- The self is Brahman (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5}

 

brahmano hi pratishthaham -- I am the source of Brahman (statement by Sri Krishna, Bg 14.27)

 

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”.

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This is an important point to understand and it is significant to comprehend (it does matter)<u> <u1:p></u1:p></u>

In the 14th century all Europeans believed the world was flat and to say otherwise was condemned by the Catholic Church. Just because you cannot understand what 'marginal' really means, it does not mean no-one else can. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

The Krishna Consciousness movement is expanding in many ways, it is not stagnant to a devotee, in fact this century we see great devotees take birth who are so advance in their love for Srila Prabhupada and Lord Chaitanya that we will really see how un-advanced we really are. <u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

We are all so concerned and attached to what ever activity we and others have done in this one insignificant life time. We have all had millions of lives trapped in ethereal and biological bodies within Maha-Vishnu's dreaming maha-tattva creation yet all we see is this one life time.

How many of us really understand we are neither the biological body nor its underlining ethereal vessel??

Compared to the great souls lined up waiting to take birth on this planet, we are very primitive due to our attachment to the biological body we are trapped in and think we are! Even though the Gita tells us every day WE ARE NOT THESE MATERIAL BODIES!!

 

 

As long as we think we are the gross disgusting biological human body and mind, then how can we ever understand the deep secrets of Spiritual life?<u1:p></u1:p>

 

<u1:p> </u1:p>

Being marginal, which ALL of us eternal are, means we can choose to remain as who we really are eternally IN our fully Krishna Conscious svarupa body, or we can ‘sub-consciously’ drift off into a ‘dream’ that is out of synch (eternal time) from that perpetual body in Goloka and enter the perishable material creation, not as our eternal devotional Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha body, but as a bodiless non-Krishna conscious projection known as the nitya-baddha consciousness that is provided ethereal and biological vessels by Maha-Vishnu that enables the nitya-baddha consciousness to enter His dreaming mahat-tattva creation.<u1:p></u1:p>

This secondary consciousness creates its own counterfeit bodily forms or vessels of ethereal and biological structure facilitated and provided by the creator of the material creation or mahat-tattva Maha-Vishnu. Only through His provisions, can the nitya-baddha bodiless conscious projection of the marginal living entity, live out their non-Krishna conscious dreams ‘embodied’ within the mahat-tattva.

In this way the marginal living entity in their secondary lower nitya-baddha consciousness, chases their dreams of self importance throughout the three worlds of the unlimited universes within the maha-tattva.

Maha-Vishnu, an expansion of the Supreme Lord, gives facility to those who choose to forget <st1:place u2:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place>. Such forgetfulness can almost seem an eternity but when they revive their original nitya-siddha identity, the nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness will be as if it never happened!!<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

In this way it is important to understand that All marginal living entities are created as persons first, as a perpetual nitya-siddha devotee with an eternal ‘svarupa’ body that always exists even if we cannot remember that vigraha (bodily form) rasa or personal bodily relationship with <st1:place u2:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place></st1:place>. Forgetting ones Krishna Conscious original is due to being absorbed in our nitya-baddha conscious protrusion that is compared to one who chooses darkness rather than light.

<table align="center"> <tbody> <tr> <td></td></tr></tbody></table><!-- Fullview Container --> <table id="fullSizeContainer"> <tbody> <tr> <td id="fullSizeCell">

</td></tr></tbody></table><!-- Navigation --><!-- Start - prevNextContainer --> <table> <tbody> <tr> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table> <table> <tbody> <tr> <td> </td></tr></tbody></table><!-- End - prevNextContainer --><!-- Square Ad -->Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”.

<u1:p></u1:p> <u1:p> </u1:p>

Srila Prabhupada clearly explains here how the non-Krishna conscious dreams that are sub-consciously separate from ones marginal nitya-siddha-svarupa rasa body, are then transferred to the ‘creation for the dreaming’ known as the mahat-tattva. This seconday (conditioned) extension of the nitya-siddha devotee is known as the nitya-baddha condition of restricted awareness, manifesting in a dreaming condition of non-Krishna conscious thoughts and desires that is called the jiva-s’akti, jiva-tattva, jiva-bhutah and about 170 other jiva definitions depending on ones secondary conscious dreaming condition.<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

Srila Prabhupada - “We wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.”

There is no mention of originally being in or coming from the Brahmajyoti, tatastha, Brahma-sayujya or the <st1:place w:st="on"><st1>Viraja</st1></st1:place><st1:place w:st="on"><st1> River</st1></st1:place>.

Srila Prabhupada also tells us that we have never been always conditioned.

Srila Prabhupada tells us that our original position is nothing less than being a fully developed perpetually vigraha devotee eternally serving Krishna in Goloka- Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, even if we presently are unaware of this fact due to our secondary nitya-baddha dreaming consciousness restricted by the division of time and space within the mahat-tattva cloud.

 

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -“Originally we have a direct personal relationship with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> in the spiritual world. But when we want to take <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s position, we therefore put ourselves into a dreaming statedue to our non-Krishna conscious choices”.

Srila Prabhupada -"In this dreaming state, after we enter the mahat-tattva dream of Maha-Vishnu, we forget our actual position and thus are free to act out our desire in our attempts to become the supreme enjoyer".

Srila Prabhupada tells us that the nitya-baddha conditioned state of mistaken self centered choices or non <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious dreams are characterized as being “fallen” from our position in the spiritual world.

Srila Prabhupada however further explains that in Vaikuntha reality, beyond mundane time and space that governs the mahat-tattva, we are not fallen (here Srila Prabhupada is refering to our perpetual svarupa body)

Srila Prabhupada - “We are not fallen because we are simply in a non-Krishna Conscious dreaming condition (nitya-baddha lower self) that cannot stay in Goloka”.

Technically, as already explained such nitya-baddha consciousness has never existed in Goloka and instead does originate from our individual tatastha consciousness that is a characteristic of our marginal identity.

 

It therefore only due to the dimensional divisions of time that the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness co-exist within the identity of all marginal living entities. This duality exists because it is the basis of free will and without it there is no concept of love. The eternally conditioned nitya-baddha consciousness is part and parcel of the impersonal Brahmajyoti and the mahat-tattva while the nitya-siddha svarupa body is ‘similtaniously at the same time’, is eternally in Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha.

Srila Prabhupada -"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

Srila Prabhupada explains that ‘marginal’ means the tendency of the living being to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently within the material creation or mahat-tattva”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Because I wanted. I wanted to forget Krishna, so <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is giving consciousness: “All right, you can forget Me in this way.”

Srila Prabhupada- 'That is His kindness. Just like the Mayavadis, the so-called yogis and karmis, they wanted to forget. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is giving him intelligence. “All right. You forget Me like this.” That’s all. Go on.

Srila Prabhupada - "And if you want to again revive your relationship, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> will give you intelligence. Buddhi yogam dadami tam yena mam upayanti te: “I shall give intelligence.” So <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>Ye yatha mam prapadyante. As you want, Krsna gives you facility. is... "

Srila Prabhupada “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact “Svapna-drastur ivanjasa. The very exact example is given, svapna-drastuh. Just like a man seeing dream: “Oh, there is tiger, tiger, tiger, tiger! Save me!”<u1:p></u1:p>

<u1:p> </u1:p>

Srila Prabhupada - “He is crying. Another man is, “Where is tiger? Why you are crying? Where is tiger?” But he, in the dream, he is actually feeling: “The tiger has attacked me.”

Srila Prabhupada - "Therefore this example is given, na ghatetartha-sambandhah. There cannot be any meaning of this relationship except like a man dreaming and he is creating a situation”. <u1:p></u1:p>

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This is an important point to understand and it is significant to comprehend (it does matter)

<u1:p></u1:p>

In other words to defeat Impersonalism and ignorance it does matter however, it also does not matter for the humble devotee who just wants to Go back home back to Godhead.

[Guruvani]

the post above contains blatant counterfeit and fabricated statements that are falsely attributed to Srila Prabhupada.

 

The moderators need to require that any such controversial claims being attributed to Srila Prabhupada be documented and verified with a mutually verifiable resource.

 

It appears to me that the author of the above post is so desperate to prove his point that he is manufacturing false statements and attributing them to Srila Prabhupada.

 

considering the unfair practices of the author of this topic I would hope that the moderator would delete this topic which contains false and fabricated statements that have been attributed wrongly to Srila Prabhupada.

 

please delete this topic.

 

It contains false statements that cannot be verified.

 

the statements attributed to Srila Prabhupada in the above post have not been substantiated or verified.

 

unless and until the author can do that, he should not be allowed to attribute statements to Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”.

 

Please provide a specific reference to this quote. I cant find it anywhere in the folio. Like many other liars before you seem to fabricate quotes to support your pet theory and flatter yourself.

[Guest guest]

Your "siddhanta" is based on deliberate lies and distortions. Shame on you.

[krsna]

 

the post above contains blatant counterfeit and fabricated statements that are falsely attributed to Srila Prabhupada.

 

The moderators need to require that any such controversial claims being attributed to Srila Prabhupada be documented and verified with a mutually verifiable resource.

 

It appears to me that the author of the above post is so desperate to prove his point that he is manufacturing false statements and attributing them to Srila Prabhupada.

 

considering the unfair practices of the author of this topic I would hope that the moderator would delete this topic which contains false and fabricated statements that have been attributed wrongly to Srila Prabhupada.

 

please delete this topic.

 

It contains false statements that cannot be verified.

 

the statements attributed to Srila Prabhupada in the above post have not been substantiated or verified.

 

unless and until the author can do that, he should not be allowed to attribute statements to Srila Prabhupada.

 

I agree. There should be some accountability towards guru, sadhu and sastra, otherwise it's a free for all or pure fantasy.

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”.

this statement from the author of this topic is a fabrication.

in other words it is a lie.

 

this topic should be deleted because the author is using lies and deceit to prove his point that he can't prove otherwise.

[Admin5]

Since you have put the following in quotation marks, attributing them to have been spoken by Prabhupada, please provide the verifyable source. If you are unable to do that, your post will be removed. To insure that you recieve this message, we will send it to you by PM, also.

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”.

[krsna]

 

 

<!-- Navigation --><!-- Start - prevNextContainer -->Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”. <?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p><u1:p></u1:p>

How is this possible? At to say that Srila Prabhupada said this?

[muralidhar_das]

 

Please provide a specific reference to this quote. I cant find it anywhere in the folio. Like many other liars before you seem to fabricate quotes to support your pet theory and flatter yourself.

Yes.

 

And I will add I'm virtually certain I know who this person Vigraha/Sarva Gatah/Pradyumna Swami really is

 

Gaura Gopala dasa (ACBSP).

 

If you are not, Vigraha, then tell us who you really are!

[Vigraha]

 

The term 'svarupa' is in brackets in the original thesis on this topic however, Srila Prabhupada said we are all originally 'nitya-siddha' and nitya-siddha also means our original svarupa. I apologise for the confusion however I firmly stick by those comments. This is confirmed in the Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:City w:st=" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan and many oyjer statements from Srila Prabhupada as follows.</st1:country-region>

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, Krsna has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so Krishna has given an opportunity:

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”.

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually he has not fallen

Srila Prabhupada:He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. . (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) .

 

In a Caitanya-caritamrta lecture delivered in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">San Francisco</st1:place></st1:City> on February 18, 1967, Srila Prabhupada – “You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Don’t you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krishna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness”.

Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968, Srila Prabhupada – “...We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> do we then become eternally liberated?...” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent.

In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 -

Srila Prabhupada makes the same point he made in the above-quoted <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:City></st1:place> lecture. No one really falls from Vaikuntha. We are always in the spiritual world. We just think we are somewhere else.

Kulasekhara: Could you explain a little bit about the position in which we were situated in the spiritual sky before coming to the material world?

Devotee: What position did we occupy in the spiritual sky before we fell into the material world?

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there, but there is a cloud which hinders your checking, your seeing of the sun. Similarly... The sky is one, when it is clouded or not clouded. So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand. There is allotted(?)... When the sky is clouded, you cannot see the sun, it does not mean that you are in a different sky. You are in the same sky. When the cloud is clear, you are in the same sky. But the difference of position is due to the cloud. That is called Maya. When you forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, that is material. And as soon as you become <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. Just like here, this temple is not in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">London</st1:place></st1:City>. It is Vaikuntha.

Devotees: Haribol!

Srila Prabhupada: Because here everyone is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious. They haven’t forgotten <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. Therefore they are in Vaikuntha. Others may see that “Oh, you are in <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">London</st1:place></st1:City>. How you are in Vaikuntha?” Just like <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, in the Bhagavad-gita is said, isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ‘rjuna tisthati. God is situated in everyone’s heart. So everyone’s heart means He is in the heart of the hog also. But if the hog is within the stool that does not mean Krsna is also within the stool. Similarly, the devotees although they are in <st1:City w:st="on">London</st1:City> or <st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">New York</st1:place></st1:State>, they’re in Vaikuntha. That is to be realized when one is in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness. Yatra tisthanti mad bhakta tatra tisthami narada. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> says, “I live there where My devotees are there.” So <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> can be everywhere where there is devotee. So this material world, spiritual world means when you forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, that is material. When you are <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious, that is spiritual. That’s all. You may remain in the same place. Because everything is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s—isavasyam idam sarvam—so how you can distinguish what is material, what is spiritual? If every, every part of the creation belongs to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, you cannot practically distinguish “This portion is spiritual, this portion is material.” That distinction is due to our forgetfulness. So as soon as you come to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness you will find everything spiritual.

Guest (5):If one realizes the impersonal Brahman, what progress can be made here from this?(?)

Prabhupada:So if you realize impersonal Brahman, there is chance of falling down again to the material conception. Because you are person, you cannot remain in impersonal stage. Therefore to elevate, to be elevated in the impersonal stage means there is chance of falling down again. But if you elevate yourself to the personal conception of the Absolute Truth, there is no falldown. Of course, because we are marginal potency of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, there is possibility of falldown always. But those who are strong in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness, they do not fall. That’s all right.

Srila Prabhupada said on April 20, 1972, in <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Tokyo</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Japan</st1:country-region></st1:place> - “no one falls from Vaikuntha.” Srila Prabhupada says that we were originally with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and are now in a situation where “we think we have fallen’.

Srila Prabhupada -"As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> desire for sense gratification is there”. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) .

Srila Prabhupada - "When you are free from the conception of gross and subtle bodies and when your senses are free from all influences of the modes of material nature, you will realize your pure form in My association. At that time you will be situated in pure consciousness." (Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.33)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So the nitya-siddha maha-bhagavata, they come from the spiritual world on the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and they, by example, they preach Krishna Consciousness. This is maha-bhagavata. By suffering, by example, everything, they look like ordinary men, but maha-bhagavata. How it is tested? Never forgets <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. This is maha-bhagavata nitya-siddha. And sadhana-siddha means those who are put into this material world, by the association of maha-bhagavata, if he tries, follows, then he can also become maha-bhagavata or nitya-siddha, because originally everyone is nitya-siddha.

nitya-siddha krishna-bhakti ‘sadhya' kabhu naya

zravanadi-zuddha-citte karaye udaya

Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, but somehow or other, just like Jaya-Vijaya, fell down in this material world, and he was delivered also, both of them were delivered. So although you have fallen in this material world, and suffering the pangs of material existence, janma-mrtyu-jara-vyadhi [bg. 13.9], on account of accepting this material body, still, Krishna personally comes, yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata [bg. 4.7]. This is glanih, discrepancies. We are living this material existence, this is not real life. Real life is to become maha-bhagavata".

Srila Prabhupada:"Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service, because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord". - Srimad Bhagavatam 3.9.11, purport

[Vigraha]

 

 

 

 

Srila Prabhupada “When there is a cosmic manifestation the jivatma, or the individual soul appears in the creation in different forms according to his previous fruitive activities (karma). Therefore it is due to his long forgetfulness of his real existence he identifies himself with a particular form awarded to him by the laws of material nature. While enwrapped in such ignorance, his natural opulence’s, although existing in minute quantity, become almost extinct.” Krsna Book. The Supreme Personality of Godhead in the chapter on the prayers of the personified Vedas.

The Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture (text 2.9.1) given by Srila Prabhupada on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan, is one of the most important statements given by Srila Prabhupada on the origin of the jiva.

Karandhara: Translation: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no meaning to the relationship of the pure soul in pure consciousness with the material body. It is just like the dreamer seeing his own body working.”

Srila Prabhupada So, purport?

Karandhara: “Purport. The question of Maharaja Pariksit is perfectly answered as to how a living entity began his material life, although he is apart from the material body and the mind.”

Srila Prabhupada It is a very important question. Pariksit Maharaja inquired... Many people inquired that “How the living entity was with Krishna became fallen down in contact with this material qualities?” So this is the answer. Read the translation.

Karandhara: “Sri Sukadeva Gosvami said: O King, unless one is influenced by the energy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead...”

Srila Prabhupada It is simply the influence of the material energy, nothing. Actually he has not fallen. Another example given is given. Just like the moon is covered with scattered cloud, the passing cloud. You have seen. Everyone has experience. The cloud passes, and it appears that the moon is moving. Have you seen this?

Devotees: Yes.

Srila Prabhupada Actually the moon is not moving. It is a maya, illusion. It appears that the moon is moving. But similarly, the living entity, because he is spiritual spark of the Supreme, it has not fallen. It has not fallen. But he is thinking, “I am fallen. I am material.” That is the reason....Try to understand. Have questions and answer. It is very important thing. Atma-maya rte rajan. Except atma-maya, the illusory energy... It is the maneuver or handling of the illusory energy of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place>, he became fallen in this material world?” Is not done? This question is raised? So this question is answered here, that “How the living entity who was with <st1:place w:st=" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. This illusory energy develops when we forget <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. That’s all. It is... In other words, this illusory identification of me with the body is simply due to my forgetfulness. We wanted to forget, we wanted to give up <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is giving us.

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen. We cannot be fallen. But we have created a situation that we are, become... Try to understand, understand. It is very important point. We have simply created a situation. We have not created a situation, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> has given us a situation. Because we wanted to imitate Krishna, so <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> has given an opportunity: “All right. Imitate. You want to be imitation king in the stage. So feel like this. Play like this. Do like this. People will applaud. ‘Oh, a very nice king, very nice.’”

Letter to Jananivasa Prabhu, dated August 27, 1967, Srila Prabhupada - "So as eternal servitors of Krishna—our constitutional position—we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. That is our downfall. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is the Supreme Enjoyer, and we are constitutionally to be enjoyed by Him, and when we revive this constitutional position where is no more Maya. Krishna Consciousness gives us the opportunity of rendering service to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, and this service attitude only can replace us on our original position"

In a letter dated December 2, 1968, Srila Prabhupada replied to a question by Rayarama

Srila Prabhupada –“The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s marginal energy.

In <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Mayapur</st1:City>, <st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region></st1:place>, on February 19, 1976, Srila Prabhupada once more addressed the perennial question of how a soul could fall from a spiritual planet.

Guru-krpa: . . . They say that in the spiritual world we say that everything is peaceful, there is no birth and death, there is no material conditions, so why if the conditions in the spiritual world are so nice and everything is spiritually, everything is spiritual, how is it that one can become envious of Krishna in such conditions? This is a very . . .

Acyutananda: The original sin.

Sudama: Why we are envious.

Guru-krpa: How is it that, if everything is free from envy, free from bad material elements . . .

Srila Prabhupada Yes.

Guru-krpa: How is it that . . .

Srila Prabhupada: That is independence. In spite of all these things, because you have got little independence, you can violate.

Sudama: It is very hard to understand.

Srila Prabhupada No, it is not difficult. It is not difficult.

Acyutananda: It is not difficult. They don’t want to understand.

Srila Prabhupada Because you are part and parcel of God, God has got full independence, but you have got little independence, proportionately, because you are part and parcel.

Acyutananda: But in the Gita, it says, “Once coming there, he never returns.”

Srila Prabhupada But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutananda: He can return.

Srila Prabhupada That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown.

Acyutananda: In Krsna book it says that there were some color fighting in Dvaraka. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is . . . Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuntha and think of personal lust with <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>’s associates?

Srila Prabhupada Yes.

[Guest guest]

 

The term 'svarupa' is in brackets in the original thesis on this topic however, Srila Prabhupada said we are all originally 'nitya-siddha' and nitya-siddha also means our original svarupa. I apologise for the confusion however I firmly stick by those comments.

 

In your post you clearly present a fake quote from Prabhupada, which is actually made up by you. Here it is one more time:

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Actually no-one falls down from Vaikuntha because their svarupa body never leaves Vaikuntha, they only ‘think’ they are fallen or ‘dream’ they are fallen but in perpetual reality one can never fall down”.

 

Not only you are a liar and a fabricator, you are also a gutless liar who will not admit he lied when exposed and who simply invents more lies to cover it up. Your ego will not let you face reality.

 

Your garbage theory is based on duplicity and gross misunderstanding of the shastra, as was pointed out to you many times before. But due to your gargantuan false ego you obviously cant see that.

 

I like a good speculation as the next guy, but making up "authotitative" quotes to prove your theory is just very, very wrong. Give it up, dude. You suck as a speculator

[Guruvani]

The author of this topic has shown that he is willing to cheat, lie and distort the words of Srila Prabhupada to prove a point that Srila Prabhupada instructed should not be researched.

 

Srila Prabhupada instructed several times that we should not worry about how or when we got here, but to just make the effort to get out.

 

These guys writing "fall from Goloka" theses are not following the instructions of Srila Prabhupada to forget about researching the issue.

 

They do it to try and prove that the Gaudiya Matha is "mayavadi" and to establish themselves as superior.

 

It's obvious from the many writings of the acharyas that the issue of the fall of the jiva is complex and not something for simpletons with an agenda to write theses on in defiance of the instructions of Srila Prabhupada to not get concerned about the issue of the fall.

 

All things considered, I think that the cheating and deception of the author of this topic warrants deletion of the topic and banning of the author from starting any future topics on the fall of the jiva.

 

If they obeyed Srila Prabhupada they wouldn't be researching the issue.

Srila Prabhupada said not concern with how the jiva got here, but just to make an effort to get out.

 

Considering the will of Srila Prabhupada that this subject not distract the devotees in their devotional lives, the only prudent thing to do is delete this topic with all it's fabricated quotes and ban the author from beginning any such topic in the future.

 

Obviously, he is a cheating and is not worthy of conducting a fair discussion of the issue.

 

If any other member was posting false and fabricated quotes to deceive the other members I don't think he would be allowed to continue.

So, why is the being allowed to go on here?

In all fairness it should be stopped immediately.