As Good As God

[Guruvani]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 10.136

 

eta śuni' sārvabhauma prabhure puchila

purī-gosāñi śūdra-sevaka kāńhe ta' rākhila

 

SYNONYMS

eta śuni' — hearing this; sārvabhauma — Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya; prabhure — unto the Lord; puchila — inquired; purī-gosāñi — Īśvara Purī; śūdra-sevaka — a servant who is a śūdra; kāńhe ta' — why; rākhila — kept.

 

 

TRANSLATION

After hearing this, Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya asked Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, "Why did Īśvara Purī keep a servant who comes from a śūdra family?"

 

 

PURPORT

Both Kāśīśvara and Govinda were personal servants of Īśvara Purī. After Īśvara Purī's demise, Kāśīśvara went to visit all the holy places of India. Following the orders of his spiritual master, Govinda immediately went to Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu for shelter. Govinda came from a śūdra family, but because he was initiated by Īśvara Purī, he was certainly a brāhmaṇa. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya here asked Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu why Īśvara Purī accepted a disciple from a śūdra family. According to the smṛti-śāstra, which gives directions for the management of the varṇāśrama institution, a brāhmaṇa cannot accept a disciple from the lower castes. In other words, a kṣatriya, vaiśya or śūdra cannot be accepted as a servant. If a spiritual master accepts such a person, he is contaminated. Sārvabhauma Bhaṭṭācārya therefore asked why Īśvara Purī accepted a servant or disciple born of a śūdra family.

In answer to this question, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied that His spiritual master, Īśvara Purī, was so empowered that he was as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As such, Īśvara Purī was the spiritual master of the whole world. He was not a servant of any mundane rule or regulation. An empowered spiritual master like Īśvara Purī can bestow his mercy upon anyone, irrespective of caste or creed. The conclusion is that an empowered spiritual master is authorized by Kṛṣṇa and his own guru and should therefore be considered as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. That is the verdict of Viśvanātha Cakravartī: sākṣād-dharitvena. An authorized spiritual master is as good as Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As Hari is free to act as He likes, the empowered spiritual master is also free. As Hari is not subject to mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is also not subject. According to the Caitanya-caritāmṛta (Antya-līlā 7.11), kṛṣṇa-śakti vinā nahe tāra pravartana. An authorized spiritual master empowered by Kṛṣṇa can spread the glories of the holy name of the Lord, for he has power of attorney from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the mundane world, anyone possessing his master's power of attorney can act on behalf of his master. Similarly, a spiritual master empowered by Kṛṣṇa through his own bona fide spiritual master should be considered as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. That is the meaning of sākṣād-dharitvena. Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore describes the activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the bona fide spiritual master as follows.

 

 

 

According to the smṛti-śāstra, which gives directions for the management of the varṇāśrama institution, a brāhmaṇa cannot accept a disciple from the lower castes.

 

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu replied that His spiritual master, ĪśvaraPurī, was so empowered that he was as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As such, Īśvara Purī was the spiritual master of the whole world. He was not a servant of any mundane rule or regulation.

 

The conclusion is that an empowered spiritual master is authorized by Kṛṣṇa and his own guru and should therefore be considered as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself. That is the verdict of Viśvanātha Cakravartī: sākṣād-dharitvena. An authorized spiritual master is as good as Hari, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As Hari is free to act as He likes, the empowered spiritual master is also free. As Hari is not subject to mundane rules and regulations, the spiritual master empowered by Him is also not subject.

Why then do so many of us try to put limits on the Acharya and insist that he is not free to "act as he likes"?

 

Obviously, there are even some "gurus" running around the world saying that the acharya is in fact not free to "act as he likes".

 

Mahaprabhu used the example of Isvara Puru to show that in fact the acharya is not bound by "tradition" or even shastra.

 

A genuie self-realized acharya as "An authorized spiritual master empowered by Kṛṣṇa can spread the glories of the holy name of the Lord, for he has power of attorney from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In the mundane world, anyone possessing his master's power of attorney can act on behalf of his master. Similarly, a spiritual master empowered by Kṛṣṇa through his own bona fide spiritual master should be considered as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself".

[Guruvani]

What is does Gaudiya Vaishnavism say about the acharya?

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 10.137

 

prabhu kahe, — īśvara haya parama svatantra

īśvarera kṛpā nahe veda-paratantra

 

SYNONYMS

prabhu kahe — Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said; īśvara — the Supreme Personality of Godhead or Īśvara Purī; haya — is; parama — supremely; svatantra — independent; īśvarera — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead or of Īśvara Purī; kṛpā — the mercy; nahe — is not; veda-paratantra — subject to the Vedic rules.

 

 

TRANSLATION

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "Both the Supreme Personality of Godhead and My spiritual master, Īśvara Purī, are completely independent. Therefore neither the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead nor that of Īśvara Purī is subject to any Vedic rules and regulations.

 

Obviously, those who say that Srila Prabhupada was bound hands and feet to shastra do not know the teachings of Mahaprabhu on the powers of the acharya.

 

The bona fide acharya according to Mahaprabhu is "not subject to any Vedic rules and regulations".

[Guest guest]

Srila Prabhupada always teaches us to make em prove it. If one says or allows himself to be advertized to be as good as god, they must be willing to demonstrate. Show me the universal form.

 

Not good as god, rather presents RASA, the demonstration of the relationship between God and his internal potency, his devotee.

 

His disciples had this problem. They reluctantly said he was good as god, Yet hes locked in his sick room, forbidden visitors he has summoned, denied the right to worship Lord Giridhari. Where is the universal form?

 

It is there, the culprits march off into forgotten history, yet he gives darshana daily from the vyasasana of the heart.

 

Saying is one thing, practical application oof these gifts is quite another.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada always teaches us to make em prove it. If one says or allows himself to be advertized to be as good as god, they must be willing to demonstrate. Show me the universal form.

 

Not good as god, rather presents RASA, the demonstration of the relationship between God and his internal potency, his devotee.

 

His disciples had this problem. They reluctantly said he was good as god, Yet hes locked in his sick room, forbidden visitors he has summoned, denied the right to worship Lord Giridhari. Where is the universal form?

 

It is there, the culprits march off into forgotten history, yet he gives darshana daily from the vyasasana of the heart.

 

Saying is one thing, practical application oof these gifts is quite another.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

You obvioulsy disagree with Mahaprabhu.

 

Did Isvara Puri show his "universal form" to Mahaprabhu?

 

no........

 

go ahead and step on Mahaprabhu and the acharyas.

Your simpleton attitude will not help the Krishna consciousness movement.

[Guest guest]

But most miss it, like even the others on the kuruksetra plain. You dont see Iswara Puris universal form?? The key is Sanjaya. He, too, saw the univerasal form. And described it to the blind king.

 

hare krsna, mo later, gotta run, mahak

[Guruvani]

 

But most miss it, like even the others on the kuruksetra plain. You dont see Iswara Puris universal form?? The key is Sanjaya. He, too, saw the univerasal form. And described it to the blind king.

 

hare krsna, mo later, gotta run, mahak

 

name one Gaudiya acharya who has every showed a "universal form".

 

Where has that standard ever been given in shastra that the guru must show some universal form to be accepted as good as God?

 

where in hell did you ever come up with such a stupid idea?

 

The shastra, Mahaprabhu and all the great Gaudiya Acharyas say that the acharya must be accepted as good as God.

 

If you don't agree to that then fine, but don't try to justify such stupidity with anything other than your own foolish whims.

[AncientMariner]

 

name one Gaudiya acharya who has every showed a "universal form".

 

Where has that standard ever been given in shastra that the guru must show some universal form to be accepted as good as God?

 

where in hell did you ever come up with such a stupid idea?

 

The shastra, Mahaprabhu and all the great Gaudiya Acharyas say that the acharya must be accepted as good as God.

 

If you don't agree to that then fine, but don't try to justify such stupidity with anything other than your own foolish whims.

 

 

I don't know for sure because I am not familiar with the stories mentioned but is it possible that Mahak is saying that all the Acharyas see or have seen Krishna and his universal form? I remember Prabhupada saying that he has seen Krishna don't know if Prabhupada mentioned Krishna showing Prabhupada His universal form or not.

[Guest guest]

This was Srila Prabhupadas witty remark concerning all those so-called yogis who claimed to be god.

 

As far as the acarya goes, they are like arjuna, not desiring to see the universal form, so Krsna does not show them, and the acarya has no need to show such ghastly features of the Supreme Lord.. However, the form the acarya does exhibit is fully invested in the transcendental energy of the Supreme Lord. Mother Saraswati has kindly allowed you to use the example of Srila Iswara Puri, and the form of the Supreme Lord he does show is complete renunciation in his dealings with his spiritual master, Srila Madhavendra Puri. He has also not been deluded by the illusory energy, and is fully invested in Yoga Maya, the transcendental RASA of dealing with Krsna without awe and reverence like a mere servant, but as a master, parent, etc. Srila Iswara puri was impelled by RASA to tell Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that he was a fool, and should give up philosophizing and just engage in yuga dharma, the nama samkirtana.

 

A true acarya exhibits divine qualities, and as such is considered as your title states, as good as god. However, when we speak of quantitative divinity, we just go back to the other thread and state clearly that The Guru is NOT God, never claims to be god, and never accepts the praises of those who think he is God.

 

As good as god is a simple topic, it need not invoke such competitive philosophizing. As good as god means that God, in both quality and quantity, has agreed to become the possession of his devotee, so much so, that the devotee can give this FULL GOD CONSCIOUSNESS to whomever he chooses. A non-acarya has no such deal, no such agreement with Krsna in any RASA, therefore cannot be given by such persons who are under the control of mahamaya, not Yogamaya like Srila Iswara Puri.

 

Hare Kr5sna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guruvani]

Srila Prabhupada never claimed to be God, so your argument is useless.

 

He did teach that the Guru should be worshiped as good as God.

 

It is the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

Don't try to create a smokescreen with the Guru not being God.

 

My topic is that the acharya is as good as God, not God.

 

So, quit diverting the topic with false accusations.

 

The topics is "GOOD AS GOD".

I never said guru is God.

 

If you think I have then that is just your mistake.

 

The point is "GOOD AS GOD".

 

So, don't make false arguments because you don't understand.

 

 

as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

this is the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

don't trash it with your misconceptions.

[AncientMariner]

 

This was Srila Prabhupadas witty remark concerning all those so-called yogis who claimed to be god.

 

As far as the acarya goes, they are like arjuna, not desiring to see the universal form, so Krsna does not show them, and the acarya has no need to show such ghastly features of the Supreme Lord.. However, the form the acarya does exhibit is fully invested in the transcendental energy of the Supreme Lord. Mother Saraswati has kindly allowed you to use the example of Srila Iswara Puri, and the form of the Supreme Lord he does show is complete renunciation in his dealings with his spiritual master, Srila Madhavendra Puri. He has also not been deluded by the illusory energy, and is fully invested in Yoga Maya, the transcendental RASA of dealing with Krsna without awe and reverence like a mere servant, but as a master, parent, etc. Srila Iswara puri was impelled by RASA to tell Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu that he was a fool, and should give up philosophizing and just engage in yuga dharma, the nama samkirtana.

 

A true acarya exhibits divine qualities, and as such is considered as your title states, as good as god. However, when we speak of quantitative divinity, we just go back to the other thread and state clearly that The Guru is NOT God, never claims to be god, and never accepts the praises of those who think he is God.

 

As good as god is a simple topic, it need not invoke such competitive philosophizing. As good as god means that God, in both quality and quantity, has agreed to become the possession of his devotee, so much so, that the devotee can give this FULL GOD CONSCIOUSNESS to whomever he chooses. A non-acarya has no such deal, no such agreement with Krsna in any RASA, therefore cannot be given by such persons who are under the control of mahamaya, not Yogamaya like Srila Iswara Puri.

 

Hare Kr5sna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

That makes a lot of sense to me. I remember that part of the Vedic literature now about Srila Iswara Puri, what you wrote jogged my memory. Wasn't Srila Iswara Puri showing how playing around with the Vedic philosophy is real dangerous and there are many such men in the Kali-yuga? That is good stuff.

[Guruvani]

ISKCON really needs to understand the message in this example of Mahaprabhu.

In the smrti-shastra it is forbidden for a brahmana to initiate a non-brahmana.

Srila Isvara Puru was a bona fide spiritual master and as such was as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

As such, he rejected these shastric injunctions that Srila Prabhupada refers to as "mundane rules and regulations".

 

The acharya is not shackled and chained to mundane interpretations of shastric injunctions. What the acharya gives is every bit as good as shastra and even more important for the time and circumstance.

 

When we are talking about an authorized acharya like Srila Prabhupada we cannot bind him down with some "tradition" or some rules and regulations of shastra.

 

In fact, the acharya is as free to act as is the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

That is the vital instruction that ISKCON needs to learn from these verses of Sri Chaitanya Caritamrita.

[Guest guest]

"As good as God" in what sense?

 

Please be precise. A line from a poem is just that: a poetic expression. Tell us how you understand that guru is as good as God? It is obviously a poetic expression because guru is certainly not God and does not have the same powers as He does. So, precisely in what sense a guru is as good as God?

[AncientMariner]

 

"As good as God" in what sense?

 

Please be precise. A line from a poem is just that: a poetic expression. Tell us how you understand that guru is as good as God? It is obviously a poetic expression because guru is certainly not God and does not have the same powers as He does. So, precisely in what sense a guru is as good as God?

 

Read Mahak's post, that sums it up very nicely.

[Guruvani]

The very idea of "tradition" can in fact be a very serious impediment to the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu.

More important than "tradition" is the updated and recent pronouncements of the living acharyas.

Clinging to tradition and insulting and assaulting the recent acharyas with some complaint that what they have given is "not traditional" is an assault on the authorized agents of Krishna.

 

More important than "tradition" is what the acharyas prescribe for our modern situation. How can an old tradition from medieval India be transplanted into the modern western world without the proper consideration of adjustments by the modern acharyas?

 

The Krishna consciousness movement is not about "tradition".

It is about making Krishna consciousness and the parampara system relevant for modern times.

 

Whining about "tradition" is for fools and rascals who seek to deprive the bona fide modern acharyas of the rightful authority that they are afforded by the teachings of Lord Sri Chaitanya.

[Guruvani]

 

"As good as God" in what sense?

 

Please be precise. A line from a poem is just that: a poetic expression. Tell us how you understand that guru is as good as God? It is obviously a poetic expression because guru is certainly not God and does not have the same powers as He does. So, precisely in what sense a guru is as good as God?

 

"a line from a poem"?

This theme and this instruction is relentlessly repeated over and over again in the books and teachings of the followers of Mahaprabhu.

 

How can you say it is just one line in a poem?

That is absurd.

That instruction and that message is hammered out time and time again in the books of Srila Prabhupada.

 

The perfect example has already been given in the first and second post of this topic.

Why are you asking for example.

Read the books of the acharyas.

[Guest guest]

 

Read Mahak's post, that sums it up very nicely.

 

I understand Mahak's point of view, as it is both rational and shastric. But I'm curious what is Guruvani's view.

 

The freedom of a guru ends when he ceases to be God's true representative and merely expresses his own ego or material conditioning. The idea that every guru has both the absolute and the relative aspect must eventually penetrate some minds. It is a simple and observable fact of life as well as part of our theology.

[Guest guest]

 

Why are you asking for example.

Read the books of the acharyas.

 

yes, I asked you a very specific question and I'm waiting for a specific answer.

 

Here is the question again:

 

precisely in what sense a guru is as good as God?

[Guruvani]

 

I understand Mahak's point of view, as it is both rational and shastric. But I'm curious what is Guruvani's view.

 

The freedom of a guru ends when he ceases to be God's true representative and merely expresses his own ego or material conditioning. The idea that every guru has both the absolute and the relative aspect must eventually penetrate some minds. It is a simple and observable fact of life as well as part of our theology.

 

guru?

Ceases to be God's representative?

His own ego?

 

You obvioulsy are giving many cheaters credit for being guru and then trying to shackle them with your miniscule understanding of what the shastra gives.

 

I am not talking about cheaters, liars and fakes.

I am talking about self-realized pure devotees who cannot and will not fall down like the fakers that have been exploiting ISKCON for the last 30 years.

 

The bona fide acharya like Srila Prabhupada is "as good as the Surpeme Personality of Godhead".

Even better.

 

You cannot serve Godhead directly.

He only accepts your service to his pure devotees.

 

The Acharya is more important than God.

You cannot approach God directly.

 

You can only approach Krishna through his pure devotee.

Therefore the acharya is actually more important to us than is Krishna.

 

Krishna doesn't accept our service directly.

Only what we offer to his pure devotee does Krishna accept.

[Guruvani]

 

yes, I asked you a very specific question and I'm waiting for a specific answer.

 

Here is the question again:

 

precisely in what sense a guru is as good as God?

 

He is better than God as far as we are concerned.

We can't serve God directly.

We can only offer service to his pure devotees.

Otherwise, Krishna won't accept your service at all.

[Guruvani]

We should never consider ourselves as devotees of Krishna.

The best we can ever be is devotees of his true devotees.

 

The acharya is more important than God.

Not only is he "as good as God", but he is actually better than God because we cannot service Krishna directly.

 

Therefore, in that sense our acharya is as Srila Prabhupada describes "servitor Godhead".

 

The acharya is our God in that all our service has to go to and through him, otherwise it will never be accepted by Krishna.

[Guest guest]

 

guru?

Ceases to be God's representative?

His own ego?

 

 

every disciple believes his guru is perfect, has no material conditioning, no ego whatsoever, and is always acting in every second as a God's representative. that is a nice belief. some of Kirtanananda's disciples still see him in that fashion. isn't a guru free to act in any way he likes?

 

however, such beliefs must be independently verified in order to be accepted as factual. that is how we can tell the saints from... less than saints.

 

so lets hear, Guruvani, about precisely in what sense a guru is as good as God?

[Guruvani]

 

 

so lets hear, Guruvani, about precisely in what sense a guru is as good as God?

The acharya is better than God, because we can't serve Krishna directly.

 

We can only serve his pure devotee, otherwise Krishna will never accept our service.

 

So, in that way, the acharya is actually better than God because it is only through the acharya that we can offer service to Mahaprabhu.

 

As good as God?

NO, that is an under-estimation.

The acharya is BETTER than God because without him we could never approach Krishna at all in any way.

 

As good as God because our service to Krishna MUST go through the acharya.

 

I have answered your questions about 5 times now.

So, please try to understand the Gaudiya siddhanta.

 

The Acharya is everything.

We have no connection to Krishna except through the acharya.

[Guruvani]

It all boils down to the hard fact that we MUST have a genuine connection to an AUTHORIZED AGENT of Krishna or otherwise our service is not going to Krishna.

Therefore AS GOOD AS GOD is the acharya.

The acharya is much more important for us than Krishna, because we can ONLY offer service through the bona fide agent.

 

This is the cold hard facts of serving Krishna.

[Guest guest]

you made several imprecise and emotional statements, that's all. it is easy to dispute their validity in many cases.

 

 

The acharya is better than God, because we can't serve Krishna directly.

 

where in the Gita does Krsna say we cant serve Him directly? patram pushpam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati...? does that ring a bell?

 

 

 

here are examples where guru is not as good as God:

 

- he does not emanate Universes from the pores of his skin or have other God specific powers

- his earthly body is subject to the laws of nature

- he reaveals to us only what has been revealed to him

 

dont get me wrong, I understand very well the value and importance of a guru. I just like precise statements and their true understanding.

[Guruvani]

 

you made several imprecise and emotional statements, that's all. it is easy to dispute their validity in many cases.

 

 

 

where in the Gita does Krsna say we cant serve Him directly? patram pushpam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati...? does that ring a bell?

 

 

 

here are examples where guru is not as good as God:

 

- he does not emanate Universes from the pores of his skin or have other God specific powers

- his earthly body is subject to the laws of nature

- he reaveals to us only what has been revealed to him

 

dont get me wrong, I understand very well the value and importance of a guru. I just like precise statements and their true understanding.

If you think you can serve Krishna directly you have missed the essential message of Mahaprabhu and his direct disciples the Goswamis of Vrindavan.

 

If you neglect to serve his authorized agent and choose an unauthorized agent, then your service is NOT going to Krishna.

 

when you offer that flower to Krishna it must then be accepted by his authorized agent.

 

Really, if you know the Gaudiya siddhanta you should understand dasa dasa anudasa.

 

Servant of the servant.

There is really nothing else than that for the devotees.