As Good As God

[Guest guest]

 

It all boils down to the hard fact that we MUST have a genuine connection to an AUTHORIZED AGENT of Krishna or otherwise our service is not going to Krishna.

 

Many devotees believe that such genuine connection is only possible through direct sanga, not through books or other indirect media. Historically, that has ALWAYS been the case.

 

Moreover, how do we make a determination who is an authorized agent of Krsna at a particular time?

[Guruvani]

 

Many devotees believe that such genuine connection is only possible through direct sanga, not through books or other indirect media. Historically, that has ALWAYS been the case.

 

Moreover, how do we make a determination who is an authorized agent of Krsna at a particular time?

 

Direct sanga?

Do you think that direct sanga is a physical matter?

It is not.

 

We just have to try to find a bona fide agent of Krishna and offer ourselves through his service.

 

Who is an authorized agent is always a matter of faith.

We have no guarantees.

We just have to try to find the authorized agent as he is described in the shastra and then work with what we can understand.

[Guest guest]

 

Direct sanga?

Do you think that direct sanga is a physical matter?

It is not.

 

 

Direct sanga happens on many levels: physical, emotional, rational and spiritual. It is all there. But it starts with a physical contact in most cases. That is how it has been even with Srila Prabhupada. In most cases there is no way around it.

[Guest guest]

 

If you think you can serve Krishna directly you have missed the essential message of Mahaprabhu and his direct disciples the Goswamis of Vrindavan.

 

that relates to serving Krsna in our tradition in an intimate way, not to all forms of service as a general principle.

 

apart from that most Vaishnavas from other schools do not see it that way and thus it cant be seen as a general principle applicable in all cases.

 

it can be said therefore that for the sake of developing madhurya rasa guru is better than God. that would be an example of a precise statement.

[Guruvani]

 

 

apart from that most Vaishnavas from other schools do not see it that way and thus it cant be seen as a general principle applicable in all cases.

 

 

most schools?

I don't see what that has got to do with you and your own connection to devotional service.

 

We should be concerned about our own school and what our own acharyas are giving.

[mahak]

Haribol. I understand guruvani, especially his criteria for using the word "guru". There is no such thing as a guru ceasing to be God's representative.

 

However, this seems to be the main problem here. That is, the difference between a genuine guru and one merely trying to pose as a guru is that the phony severely depends on the disciple BELIEVING that he is as good as god. The genuing guru will fully teach that he is NOT god, that only God is God, and that our business is to directly serve Him.

 

There is also a need for a phony guru for his disciple to BELIEVE that Krsna cannot be served directly, that the only hope for a person is to place all their love (meaning funds, adulation, etc) upon the guru. However, a genuine guru teaches the disciple to directly serve krsna. This is called sadhana bhakti.

 

Of course we take the gifts of the genuine guru and serve krsna through his vehicle. Srila Prabhupada tells us that he is the mailbox, krsna is the post office, both have equal authority to receive and deliver mail. But Srila Prabhupada does not teach that Krsna cannot be directly served. He gives us the story of Dhruva, who got krsna to appear before him by his own determination while in a needy condition. Krsna then disappears, and dhruva is able to be approached by the inspired srila narada muni, who enables dhruva to serve through his vehicle. Often times, this rings true in the contemporary world. many of us had a direct blast of experiancing directly the glory of god, but it went away almost immediately. Then the craving for permanence came upon us, so we were approached by one directly sent by krsna to retrieve us, to show us how to NOT LOSE HIM AGAIN.

 

No, we cannot directly approach God, but He can do whatever he wants with us. He can cause us to remember or forget per his whim. He can send us a genuine guru or he can cause us to be bewildered by an idiot who wants us to believe he is as good as god and that god can never be attained unless we do what the idiot wants us to do. Krsna is omnescient and knows the heart of the individual, knows the motive. The guru is not omnescient, yet is perfectly comprised of all knowledge because he does not change the message thaqt is given by krsna to give to us. This is the divinity of a genuine guru, that he does not interfere with the direct relationship between god and the living being. What god desires for the being, the guru brings this desire, intact, no change, just the same as all the acaryas. When a guru (a genuine one, I am like guruvani here, I dont use the word normally to describe a pretender) sits in the vyasasana, or receives praises on Vyasa puja, he is none other than Lord Vyasadedva, thus the terms vyasapuj and vyasasana.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

In one of the threads here recently (unfortuantely cannot remember which one), there was a post that said Srila Prabhupada said that in his previous life, he was a doctor and committed no sins. Is there any reference to this? If so, how come he is Nity Sidha?

[Guest guest]

 

most schools?

I don't see what that has got to do with you and your own connection to devotional service.

 

We should be concerned about our own school and what our own acharyas are giving.

 

you cannot make sweeping generalisations without getting a challenge inquiry to set the record straight. just because I understand that certain concepts pertain to my school that does not mean everybody has to think in those terms. this is an open forum, not an isthagosti session at our local temple.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The acharya is not shackled and chained to mundane interpretations of shastric injunctions. What the acharya gives is every bit as good as shastra and even more important for the time and circumstance.

Search for Sri Krishna: Reality the Beautiful

Page 50

 

 

SAINTS: LIVING SCRIPTURES

Student: So, how can we develop our faith in Krishna consciousness?

Sridhar Maharaj: How have you come to conceive of Krishna consciousness?

Student: By reading Bhagavad-Gita.

Sridhar Maharaj: Bhagavad-Gita. From the scriptures. And the scriptures are written by whom? Some saint. So, the association of saints and the advice of scriptures are both necessary. The saint is the living scripture, and the scripture advises us in a passive way. A saint can actively approach us, and passively we may receive benefit from the scriptures. The association of the scriptures and the saints can help us achieve the ultimate realization: sadhu shastra krpaya haya. The saints are more powerful. Those who are living the life of the scriptural advice are scripture personified. In their association, and by their grace, we can imbibe such higher, subtle knowledge and faith.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Had things gone slightly differently in my life, I would have likely taken initiation from Ramesvar Maharaj.

 

When he left, would I have had a crisis of faith had I been his disciple? Perhaps, but not likely.

 

That inspired part of his manifest being would continue to inspire me. I would like to think that I would have continued to associate with the Vaishnavas, seek instruction from so many wonderful senior Vaishnavas, and carried on with my spiritual life.

 

Perhaps, eventually, I would have taken initiation again from another qualified Vaishnava.

 

Should any of these happenings in any way lessen my faith (such as it is) in Sri Guru? If I have any faith in Guru (who is One (and yet Many)), the answer is a resounding NO!

 

 

every disciple believes his guru is perfect, has no material conditioning, no ego whatsoever, and is always acting in every second as a God's representative. that is a nice belief. some of Kirtanananda's disciples still see him in that fashion. isn't a guru free to act in any way he likes?

 

however, such beliefs must be independently verified in order to be accepted as factual. that is how we can tell the saints from... less than saints.

 

so lets hear, Guruvani, about precisely in what sense a guru is as good as God?

[Guruvani]

 

In one of the threads here recently (unfortuantely cannot remember which one), there was a post that said Srila Prabhupada said that in his previous life, he was a doctor and committed no sins. Is there any reference to this? If so, how come he is Nity Sidha?

 

that is hearsay.

its just a rumor that floats around.

 

A doctor who committed no sins could been Sikhi Mahiti or some doctor in the pastimes of Mahaprabhu.

 

No sins means NO KARMA.

In devotional conception good karma and bad karma are both sins.

 

No sins must indicate a life of pure devotional service in the pastimes of the Lord.

It certainly doesn't indicate the life of an ordinary conditioned soul if he didn't commit any sins.

 

Even good karma is sinful from the devotional perspective.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

"There *are* no phony Gurus (capital "G"), only phony disciples"

--Me

 

From (you guessed it) Search for Sri Krishna: Reality the Beautiful

Page 90:

 

 

“But from the ultimate standpoint, I see that they are

agents engaged by You to segregate the seriously diseased

persons to another ward, for the good of the less seriously

diseased patients. It is Your arrangement to segregate

the hopeless persons to another side for the

benefit of the good side. That is Your design, and they

are playing in Your hand like so many dolls. They are

Your agents and they are also serving You in some way,

because nothing is outside You.”

 

There is also a need for a phony guru for his disciple to BELIEVE that Krsna cannot be served directly, that the only hope for a person is to place all their love (meaning funds, adulation, etc) upon the guru. However, a genuine guru teaches the disciple to directly serve krsna. This is called sadhana bhakti.

[Guest guest]

Murali Mohan prabhu ... you are an awesome devotee with very highly adanced understanding! You are certainly an inspiration. I hope you continue to post for many years

 

 

Had things gone slightly differently in my life, I would have likely taken initiation from Ramesvar Maharaj.

 

When he left, would I have had a crisis of faith had I been his disciple? Perhaps, but not likely.

 

That inspired part of his manifest being would continue to inspire me. I would like to think that I would have continued to associate with the Vaishnavas, seek instruction from so many wonderful senior Vaishnavas, and carried on with my spiritual life.

 

Perhaps, eventually, I would have taken initiation again from another qualified Vaishnava.

 

Should any of these happenings in any way lessen my faith (such as it is) in Sri Guru? If I have any faith in Guru (who is One (and yet Many)), the answer is a resounding NO!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Murali Mohan prabhu ... you are an awesome devotee with very highly adanced understanding! You are certainly an inspiration. I hope you continue to post for many years

 

Sure, jinx me why don't you?

 

Next week, CPS will have my kids, and I'll be waking up in a crack house with no idea who I am.

 

By your grace, may I remain in the association of the Vaishnavas!!

 

Gauranga!!!!

Dayal Nitai!!!

Jai Gurudev!!!!!!

Gaura Bhakta Vrinda ki jai!!!

[Guest guest]

LOL prabhu.

 

You have humility and you aren't envious. There is no reason for me to believe that you won't have the mercy of the Lord. Like you, I strive to be in the company of Vaisnavas. When I behave wrongly sometimes out of ignorance, books don't chastise me, the Vaisnava does (happened yesterday).

 

 

Sure, jinx me why don't you?

 

Next week, CPS will have my kids, and I'll be waking up in a crack house with no idea who I am.

 

By your grace, may I remain in the association of the Vaishnavas!!

 

Gauranga!!!!

Dayal Nitai!!!

Jai Gurudev!!!!!!

Gaura Bhakta Vrinda ki jai!!!

[Guruvani]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 1.45

 

guru kṛṣṇa-rūpa hana śāstrera pramāṇe

guru-rūpe kṛṣṇa kṛpā karena bhakta-gaṇe

 

SYNONYMS

guru — the spiritual master; kṛṣṇa-rūpa — as good as Kṛṣṇa; hana — is; śāstrera — of revealed scriptures; pramāṇe — by the evidence; guru-rūpe — in the form of the spiritual master; kṛṣṇa — Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa; kṛpā — mercy; karena — distributes; bhakta-gaṇe — unto His devotees.

 

 

TRANSLATION

According to the deliberate opinion of all revealed scriptures, the spiritual master is nondifferent from Kṛṣṇa. Lord Kṛṣṇa in the form of the spiritual master delivers His devotees.

 

 

PURPORT

The relationship of a disciple with his spiritual master is as good as his relationship with the Supreme Lord. A spiritual master always represents himself as the humblest servitor of the Personality of Godhead, but the disciple must look upon him as the manifested representation of Godhead.

 

If you have a guru and you can't honestly accept him as non-different than Krishna, then you don't have a real guru.

 

 

The relationship of a disciple with his spiritual master is as good as his relationship with the Supreme Lord

 

If you don't accept that, then you don't have a guru.

You have a pet.

[Guruvani]

So, the "VEDIC" rule is that a brahmana cannot accept a servant from amongst the lower classes.

That is the "VEDIC" tradition.

 

Mahaprabhu showed however that a Vaishnava is already a brahmana by quality and can thus be accepted for initiation by a brahmana.

 

The "VEDIC" rule that prohibits the brahmana from initiating lower class men is relevant to the Varnashrama system that also contains karma-kanda and jnana-kanda prescriptions.

 

The Vedas don't deal ONLY with Vishnu-bhakti.

They also contain systems of karma-kanda, jnana-kanda - dharma, artha, karma and moksha and the worship of different devatas.

 

But, Mahaprabhu showed that the Vaishnava system is beyond the common principles of the Vedas dealing with Varnashram.

 

He showed that there are rules and regulations in the Vedas which must be rejected from the Vaishnava system of spiritual realization.

 

So, Mahaprabhu was a revolutionary.

He rocked the boat of the Hindu culture.

 

He began the resistance movement that faught against the dogma of the caste brahmans that have a long history in Indian society going back thousands of years.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur struck the death-blow to this caste brahmanism that had even managed to pollute the Nityananda vamsha of the Gaudiya tradition.

 

Since then, the monopoly has been broken and Vaishnavas from all over the world are getting proper recognition as brahmanas in India and around the world.