Did we enter the body at conception or we were already in the sperm before?

[Guruvani]

 

Let's see, You don't believe cells are indivudals and based on that belief blood cells are not individuals and based on that bacteria in the earth are not indiviuals but just part of Mother Earth. Same with the trees in the forest and then the forest themselves. Well expand that out and from a larger perspective and planets like earth are just cells in a galaxy and therefore have no individual souls either. Only the galaxy does. But Galaxies are just cells in a universe so only the universe has a soul and that soul is Brahma. But wait again this entire universe is just a cell in the totality of universes and there is only one soul for that totality of the material manifestation and that is Krsna or Brahman.

 

So what is thought to be an individual soul by the personalist school is really just based on their maya of individuality and as our consciousness expands we see the tiny illusions of individuality disolving into the larger ones until all that is left is Brahman.

 

A unique presentation with a familar conclusion, one soul and one soul only in all of existence.

 

Welcome to mayavadi philosophy.

 

As for myself I'll pass thank you.

 

let me see...............

 

you are now giving purport to what Muralidhar has said?

 

Maybe he should be allowed to explain himself without your mutilation of what he said?

[theist]

It's a consequence of that philosohy that he expressed. i have no doubt that Muralidhar is far from a mayavadi but that is where the philosophy that both of you a toying with.

 

He will explain himself further in due course. There is no need for your involvement on his behalf.

[muralidhar_das]

 

Let's see, You don't believe cells are indivudals and based on that belief blood cells are not individuals and based on that bacteria in the earth are not indiviuals but just part of Mother Earth. Same with the trees in the forest and then the forest themselves. Well expand that out and from a larger perspective and planets like earth are just cells in a galaxy and therefore have no individual souls either. Only the galaxy does. But Galaxies are just cells in a universe so only the universe has a soul and that soul is Brahma. But wait again this entire universe is just a cell in the totality of universes and there is only one soul for that totality of the material manifestation and that is Krsna or Brahman.

 

So what is thought to be an individual soul by the personalist school is really just based on their maya of individuality and as our consciousness expands we see the tiny illusions of individuality disolving into the larger ones until all that is left is Brahman.

 

A unique presentation with a familar conclusion, one soul and one soul only in all of existence.

 

Welcome to mayavadi philosophy.

 

As for myself I'll pass thank you.

 

Hmmm... the servant of the great god Jehovah has spoken!

 

Misrepresenting me.....

 

I quoted Gita, which is saying there is one individual soul in each body.

 

Indeed, there are millions of DIFFERENT souls in different bodies. All souls and bodies are not "ONE" - I never suggested such a thing.

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

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</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

 

I said I think trees may not be individuals since they show no signs of ego consciousness, even though they are alive. Maybe they are all leaves of a greater thing - nature.

 

 

 

The Blessed Lord said: There is a banyan tree which has its roots upward and its branches down and whose leaves are the Vedic hymns. One who knows this tree is the knower of the Vedas.

 

Every living thing in this material world is part of that tree of life.

 

I said there are [individual] souls in mountains

 

 

 

In the land of Salmali dvipa, the wife of the great mountain Oronacal gave birth to a son named Govardhana. At the time of Govardhana's birth all the demigods appeared in the sky. and showered flowers upon him. The great mountains, led by the Himalayas and Sumeru, came there to offer their respects. They then performed parikrama of Govardhana and accepted him as their king.They offered very nice prayers praising Govardhana for having descended from Goloka Vrndavana, describing him as the "crown jewel of Vraja."

 

At the beginning of Satya-yuga, the great sage Pulastya Muni paid a visit to Salmali dvipa.

 

Upon seeing the beautiful Govardhana Hill covered with many lovely creepers, flowers, rivers, caves and chirping birds, the sage felt that this hill was capable of giving liberation. He then went to meet Oronacal, who immediately offered his respects and inquired from the sage what service he could render. Pulastya Muni informed Oronacal that he was from Kazi (Benares) and was on pilgrimage to all the holy places. And he said that even though the sacred river Ganges flows through Kazi, there is no beautiful hill. He then asked Oronacal to give Govardhana to him so that he could perform his austerities sitting on top of the hill.

 

On hearing the sage's request, Oronacal, who was not willing to part with his son, started to shed tears in thought of separation from his beloved Govardhana. Not wanting to see Pulastya Muni become angry and curse his father, Govardhana asked the sage how he would carry him all the way to Kazi. The sage replied that he would carry him in his right hand. Govardhana then agreed to go with the sage on one condition - that if the sage put him down anywhere during the course of the journey, he would not be able to lift him again. Pulastya. Muni agreed. Carrying Govardhana in his right hand he left for Kasi.

 

By the will of providence Pulastya Muni passed through Vraja on his way to Kasi. On arriving in Vraja, Govardhana thought that now he was here he should remain in the holy dhama. By his mystic power he was able to influence Pulastya Muni to attend to the call of nature. Unmindful, the sage put Govardhana down and went off to answer the call. But when he returned he was unable to again lift Govardhana. Trying with all his might, using both hands, he could not lift Govardhana even slightly. In great anger Pulastya Muni cursed Govardhana to sink into the ground by the measurement of one mustard seed every day. When Govardhana first came to Vraja in the beginning of Satya-yuga, he was eight yojanas long (64 miles); five yojanas wide (40 miles} and two yojanas high (16 miles). It is said that after ten thousand years of the Kali-yuga, Govardhana will have completely disappeared.

 

 

In this quote from Sri Garga Samhita we see that the mountains are personalities and that Govardhana was born from the mountain Oronacal. The mountains moved, and came to see Govardhana. All of this happened - in the ocean of eternal consciousness called Brahman.

 

Srila Bhakti Rakshak Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj:

 

Mukti, he who aspires after mukti, this word mukti means emancipation, even identification with Brahman, sayujyamukti, he gets, or he goes, he has to go to the sthavara, the body of a Himalaya or something like that. Sthavara-deha.

 

He wants susukti, oneness. And from the Vaikuntha law, according to Vaikuntha law, this is a very great conspiracy and a very bad tendency, to try to occupy the throne of the Absolute. So the nature does not tolerate this idea, this idea. So he is thrown down.

 

Though samadhi, minimum consciousness he may have, he may be a hill, mountain, or may be tree or something like that. He'll not like to participate into any specified differentiated world. So go and sleep for long time. When the serious crime committed then we are put in a cell, disconnected by any person, in a solitary cell. Punishment. Solitary cell. Go and sleep, disconnected with the living, moving world. That is the punishment. Those that seek mukti and of that type of idea, that I am so'ham, I am He (Brahman). That is a crime, so'ham.

 

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[theist]

But if you guruvani want to critique what I said have at it. It is an open board.

 

Time for me to hit my excercise bike for an hour. I keep trying to out distance the ravages of old age so I must stay on the move. i look forward to your specific points when I return.

[theist]

 

Hmmm... the servant of the great god Jehovah has spoken!

 

If you can't take a philosophical challenge without the petty ad hominuems then we have nothing to discuss directly.

[Guruvani]

 

But if you guruvani want to critique what I said have at it. It is an open board.

 

Time for me to hit my excercise bike for an hour. I keep trying to out distance the ravages of old age so I must stay on the move. i look forward to your specific points when I return.

 

it's getting beddy-bye time for me so I can't ramble on much.

 

but, you accused Muralidhar of "mayavada" as you obviously didn't even read his complete post as he described that even mountains have individual souls.

 

as far as mayavada goes, maybe you should read the description of the virat-rupa of the Lord in Bhagavat.

 

In that description the whole universe is described as part of his one body.

 

one and different theist.... one and different...

 

there is oneness.....

if you don't understand that then you don't understand acintyabhedabheda tattva....

oneness in difference....

don't forget the oneness and just focus on difference....

good-nite......

best wishes always....

[muralidhar_das]

Good night, good night!

[theist]

 

t's getting beddy-bye time for me so I can't ramble on much.

 

It's only ten where you are and I have little doubt we will see more from you on this board tonight. That's fine if you want to put some thought into it as that is the best way anyway. You can pick it up in the morning. I'll look for it.

 

Oh before you go to sleep tonight remember oneness and difference means there can be individual souls as cells in the body without contradicting the fact that the soul alone illumines the body by consciousness. If you take the soul alone incorrectly, as per mayavada, you will come to think the Paramatma is alone being referred to witch is essentially the point I made in critiquing Muralidhar's post.

 

"Can you hear me now."

[muralidhar_das]

Shaligram hailed Vrinda devi saying:

"Your hair will transform into sacred trees and as being born of you, they will be known by the name of Tulsi. The whole world will perform their rituals with the leaves and flowers of this Tulsi plant. Therefore, O fair-faced one! You will be reckoned as the chief amongst all vegetation. All the sacred pilgrimages will reside at the bottom of the Tulsi tree, where I and all the other deities will sit, waiting in anticipation to be blessed by a falling leaf."

 

 

SB 10.40.13-14: Fire is said to be Your face, the earth Your feet, the sun Your eye, and the sky Your navel. The directions are Your sense of hearing, the chief demigods Your arms, and the oceans Your abdomen. Heaven is thought to be Your head, and the wind Your vital air and physical strength. The trees and plants are the hairs on Your body, the clouds the hair on Your head, and the mountains the bones and nails of You, the Supreme. The passage of day and night is the blinking of Your eyes, the progenitor of mankind Your genitals, and the rain Your semen.

 

 

Vamana-Vishnu started to grow in size. He grew and grew until he filled the whole universe. Everything was within his form - the earth, the seas, the birds, beasts and human beings and the planets themselves. Bali saw everything that existed in that wonderful form of the Lord. His feet were the surface of the earth, his breath was the wind, his hair was the clouds and his eyes were the sun. The lower planets were on the souls of his feet and the heavenly planets were on his head.

 

 

SB 2.10.21: Thus when everything existed in darkness, the Lord desired to see Himself and all that was created. Then the eyes, the illuminating god Sun, the power of vision and the object of sight all became manifested.

 

SB 2.10.22: By development of the desire of the great sages to know, the ears, the power of hearing, the controlling deity of hearing, and the objects of hearing became manifested. The great sages desired to hear about the Self.

 

SB 2.10.23: When there was a desire to perceive the physical characteristics of matter, such as softness, hardness, warmth, cold, lightness and heaviness, the background of sensation, the skin, the skin pores, the hairs on the body and their controlling deities (the trees) were generated. Within and outside the skin is a covering of air through which sense perception became prominent.

In the beginning there were no physical bodies and no material world.

 

Then the eye to see things evolved from consciousness. Then the ear to hear something outside ourself. Then the feeling of space and air.

 

When the skin that feels SENSATION manfested, the trees also became manifest from Brahma (Brahman). Souls sleeping in Brahman that were interested in experiencing the feelings felt by trees entered into the differentiated form of different categories of trees. They are the tree devas. They are different from specific individual trees in the same way that a flute song is different from the individual notes of the song.

 

In this way, the world evolved within time and space.

[theist]

That is directed to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vamana. It is describing His universal form. The trees are hairs on his body which is the standard description as to His universal form. That does not mean the trees do not contain individual souls.

 

Humans also have their place in the universal form and obviously the human form has an individual soul within it.

[muralidhar_das]

What about this:

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SB 2.10.23: When there was a desire to perceive the physical characteristics of matter, such as softness, hardness, warmth, cold, lightness and heaviness, the background of sensation, the skin, the skin pores, the hairs on the body and their controlling deities (the trees) were generated. Within and outside the skin is a covering of air through which sense perception became prominent. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

the hairs on the body and their controlling deities (the trees) were generated

 

deities means devas.

 

deities means individual souls who are the contollers of a particular category of things. indra has an influence over storms that are moving in the skies all over the world, a tree deva has an influence over all the trees of his category.

 

 

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[theist]

TRANSLATION SB 3.28.42

A yogi should see the same soul in all manifestations, for all that exists is a manifestation of different energies of the Supreme. In this way the devotee should see all living entities without distinction. That is realization of the Supreme Soul.

 

PURPORT

As stated in the Brahma-samhita, not only does the Supreme Soul enter each and every universe, but He enters even the atoms. The Supreme Soul is present everywhere in the dormant stage, and when one can see the presence of the Supreme Soul everywhere, one is liberated from material designations.

The word sarva-bhuteshu is to be understood as follows. There are four different divisions of species-living entities which sprout from the earth, living entities born of fermentation or germination, living entities which come from eggs and living entities which come from the embryo. These four divisions of living entities are expanded in 8,400,000 species of life. A person who is freed from material designations can see the same quality of spirit present everywhere or in every manifested living entity. Less intelligent men think that plants and grass grow out of the earth automatically, but one who is actually intelligent and has realized the self can see that this growth is not automatic; the cause is the soul, and the forms come out in material bodies under different conditions. By fermentation in the laboratory many germs are born, but this is due to the presence of the soul. The material scientist thinks that eggs are lifeless, but that is not a fact. From Vedic scripture we can understand that living entities in different forms are generated under different conditions. Birds evolve from eggs, and beasts and human beings are born from the embryo. The perfect vision of the yogi or devotee is that he sees the presence of the living entity everywhere.

[theist]

 

What about this:

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SB 2.10.23: When there was a desire to perceive the physical characteristics of matter, such as softness, hardness, warmth, cold, lightness and heaviness, the background of sensation, the skin, the skin pores, the hairs on the body and their controlling deities (the trees) were generated. Within and outside the skin is a covering of air through which sense perception became prominent. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

the hairs on the body and their controlling deities (the trees) were generated

 

deities means devas.

 

deities means individual souls who are the contollers of a particular category of things. indra has an influence over storms that are moving in the skies all over the world, a tree deva has an influence over all the trees of his category.

 

 

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No first what about the rest of what you posted? Do you accept that it was concerning the Lord and therefore doesn't substantiate your position? Then we can continue.

[theist]

 

What about this:

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SB 2.10.23: When there was a desire to perceive the physical characteristics of matter, such as softness, hardness, warmth, cold, lightness and heaviness, the background of sensation, the skin, the skin pores, the hairs on the body and their controlling deities (the trees) were generated. Within and outside the skin is a covering of air through which sense perception became prominent. </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

the hairs on the body and their controlling deities (the trees) were generated

 

deities means devas.

 

deities means individual souls who are the contollers of a particular category of things. indra has an influence over storms that are moving in the skies all over the world, a tree deva has an influence over all the trees of his category.

 

 

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Since I am the impatient type....

 

So there is a deva in control of trees, that does not mean that the trees have no souls.

[muralidhar_das]

Sri Sridhar Dev Goswami Maharaj has described that every thing has five features associated with it: 1) the particular thing (object), 2) the devata, 3) Guru, 4) Baladeva, and ultimately Svayam Bhagavan 5) Sri Sri Radha-Krishna.

 

In the materialistic conception of life we see an object such as a man as a particular physical object. A man is a particular thing. But where do the boundaries defining my human body begin and end? My body is a state of flux - food, breath, the light entering my eyes, the words going out my mouth - my body is simply a part of nature and it is always Maya and never Me.

 

The devata refers to the concept or universal which is controlling any particular thing. Every object has an idea (concept) associated with it. Seen from the plane of consciousness that concept is called a devata. This idea is the concept of "doggishness", "slug consciousness", "fish consciousness" etc. These ideas push animals to act out of "instinct" so that they dog barks instinctively when it feels threatened, and defecates when it feels that kind of urge. The force of the devata manifests through individual dogs and fish so they act instinctively and without showing any intelligence. But we human beings are not controlled by instinctive thoughts in the way animals are. The instinctive knowledge (devata) is something we can overcome through using our intelligence. Moreover, we are told by Srila Sridhar Maharaj that we should not be concerned with seeing how the devata is existing within objects and controlling objects, since the desire to get knowledge of the devatas, the desire to get an understanding of the mechanics of their Powers (siddhi), is a manifestation of the Maya shakti.

 

Above the devatas is Guru. In Srila Sridhar Maharaj's teachings about Sankhya, he says Guru indicates the pure consciousness (buddhi) that enables the jiva to see things as they really are. The consciousness of Guru descends within us and enables us to see the things in nature with divya-jnana, or proper vision. When we see nature in the way the suddha-vaishnavas see it, we see how things are in Reality. At that time, when I know what is real and what is false, I become able to be my own Guru, according to Srila Govinda Dev Goswami Maharaj.

 

Baladeva is the spiritual manifestative energy known as sandhini shakti. When one acts under the direction of Sri Guru in a mood of full surrender he automatically comes in contact with Baladeva who is controlling the whole of Nature

 

 

CC Ādi 5.42: There [in the spiritual sky] the personal feature of Balarāma called Mahā-sańkarṣaṇa is the shelter of the spiritual energy. He is the primary cause, the cause of all causes.

CC Ādi 5.43: One variety of the pastimes of the spiritual energy is described as pure goodness [viśuddha-sattva]. It comprises all the abodes of Vaikuṇṭha.

CC Ādi 5.44: The six attributes are all spiritual. Know for certain that they are all manifestations of the opulence of Sańkarṣaṇa.

CC Ādi 5.45: There is one marginal potency, known as the jīva. Mahā-sańkarṣaṇa is the shelter of all jīvas.

CC Ādi 5.46: Sańkarṣaṇa is the original shelter of the puruṣa, from whom this world is created and in whom it is dissolved.

CC Ādi 5.47: He [Sańkarṣaṇa] is the shelter of everything. He is wonderful in every respect, and His opulences are infinite. Even Ananta cannot describe His glory.

CC Ādi 5.48: That Sańkarṣaṇa, who is transcendental pure goodness, is a partial expansion of Nityānanda Balarāma.

 

 

Beyond this is the lila of Radha Govinda. I cannot go there now. I'm in the stage where I'm trying to see Reality through the grace of Sri Guru.

[muralidhar_das]

 

That is directed to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Vamana. It is describing His universal form. The trees are hairs on his body which is the standard description as to His universal form. That does not mean the trees do not contain individual souls.

 

Humans also have their place in the universal form and obviously the human form has an individual soul within it.

 

I agree that there are souls in tree bodies. But I'm a practical person theist.

 

Think about this... if you get a branch of a banyan tree and put it in some moist mossy soil it will grow roots and become another tree. My contention is that the single "ghost" or devata of the banyan tree may be simultaneously present in many trees we see growing in different places.

 

When we talk about the universal form we are not talking about a sat-chit-ananda body that is eternal. Rather, we are talking about a conglomerate body that encompasses (and surpasses) the beings in the whole of creation. The hairs on the body of the universal form are, in my view, jivas, not Visnu.

 

Does that answer your question?

[theist]

 

I agree that there are souls in tree bodies. But I'm a practical person theist.

 

Think about this... if you get a branch of a banyan tree and put it in some moist mossy soil it will grow roots and become another tree. My contention is that the single "ghost" or devata of the banyan tree may be simultaneously present in many trees we see growing in different places.

 

When we talk about the universal form we are not talking about a sat-chit-ananda body that is eternal. Rather, we are talking about a conglomerate body that encompasses (and surpasses) the beings in the whole of creation. The hairs on the body of the universal form are, in my view, jivas, not Visnu.

 

Does that answer your question?

 

Thank you. We are in agreement except on the banyan tree idea. I understand what you are saying but when one banyan dies the other is still living and growing which says to me that another soul has entered. That is what I believe happens. Or like if a worm is cut in two and the form regenerates on both portions and you have two worms I believe another soul has entered in this unconcentional way.

 

Anyway do you see my larger point on mayavada? I was not trying to insult you as I said I know you are not a mayavadi but we are all influenced by mayavad in various ways and it is hard to see it's insidious influence.

[muralidhar_das]

I can't understand the connection with Mayavada. Sorry.

 

From one point of view only Krishna exists. He is everything. Every Thing.

 

 

Sri Krishna says:

Gold remains gold both before and after ornaments are made of it. It only gets different names such as ring or necklace. Similarly, the Reality, the Cause of creation, is the same both before and after worldly objects receive their various names and forms.

-Srimad Bhagavat Purana (11.28.19)

 

But he is savisesha-brahma and not nirvisesha-brahma. Krishna has features and potencies and the jiva souls are part of one of his potencies. Those jiva souls are eternal individual entities.

[theist]

 

I can't understand the connection with Mayavada. Sorry.

 

From one point of view only Krishna exists. He is everything. Every Thing.

 

 

 

But he is savisesha-brahma and not nirvisesha-brahma. Krishna has features and potencies and the jiva souls are part of one of his potencies. Those jiva souls are eternal individual entities.

 

I'll try to explain the mayavada statement in the morning. I'm fading out already. It's only 10:30pm here but my brain is out of gas...er.I mean fuel. Some say my brain is always full of gas of some sort .

 

Yes Krsna is everything but we are also part of Krsna.

[muralidhar_das]

In regard to banyan trees and other plants, I have often wondered if a soul in the body of a tree really does have an awareness of the boundaries of its own body.

 

When I said that the spirit of a tree may be like a ghost I was feeling this metaphor is appropriate. The ghost can haunt many bodies at the same time. I feel this metaphor is close to what I feel may be happening in nature.

 

If you get a handful of leaves of the "african violet" plant and put it on a table and then take a chopping knife and cut the leaves up into hundreds of pieces then each of them will grow into a new plant, if you nurture them. Do you think souls suddenly get born when you chop off the individual eyes of a potato, since each of the eyes can grow and become a new plant?

[theist]

 

In regard to banyan trees and other plants, I have often wondered if a soul in the body of a tree really does have an awareness of the boundaries of its own body.

 

When I said that the spirit of a tree may be like a ghost I was feeling this metaphor is appropriate. The ghost can haunt many bodies at the same time. I feel this metaphor is close to what I feel may be happening in nature.

 

If you get a handful of leaves of the "african violet" plant and put it on a table and then take a chopping knife and cut the leaves up into hundreds of pieces then each of them will grow into a new plant, if you nurture them. Do you think souls suddenly get born when you chop off the individual eyes of a potato, since each of the eyes can grow and become a new plant?

 

Yes I beleive that new souls take their place in those newly developing plants. I'll try to find some referrences in the morning.

 

Now I'm off to dreamland. Hopefully I will astral project so that I can hunt down Guruvani and harrass him a little.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Walt Whitman - Song of Myself

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext98/lvgrs10.txt

 

 

Do I contradict myself?

Very well then I contradict myself,

(I am large, I contain multitudes.)

Well, Prabhus. Thank you for your association.

 

I'm off for my first week-long vacation since before my daughter was born four years ago.

 

Hopefully it will be a vacation from computers, work, internet forums, etc.

 

Hopefully it will *not* be a vacation from spirituality!!

 

See you back here in a week or so, God-willing.

 

Govinda!! Gopala!! Hari!!!

 

Jai Gurudev!

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

As the sun alone illuminates all this universe, so does the living entity, one within the body, illuminate the entire body by consciousness. (Gita 13. 34)

 

This verse does not say anything about whether or not other bodies (and souls) may be existing within our body. It speaks about the spreading of the soul's consciousness throughout the body. Just as the sun spreads its light throughout the universe, so in the same way the soul (kshetri - embodied) spreads its consciousness throughout the body (kshetra - field).

 

In the universe there may still be other lights acting in their own limited domains, like the glow worms and flashlights, but the sun is the predominant source of light.

 

Our body is the whole unit, and our consciousness spreads throughout the entire unit of the body. The individual cells and other organisms that may be building blocks of our body do not pervade our body with their consciousness. They pervade their own microscopic bodies with their consciousness.

 

The same verse is equally true for them. Their one soul pervades their entire microscopic body with their individual consciousness, just as our one soul pervades our entire body with our individual consciousness.

 

The word kshetra refers to a field of activity, not to a gross chunk of matter. Fields of activity may overlap with other fields of activity. The word kshetra must be connected with the "doer of activity". Deha (body) can be a living body, a dead body, a chunk of matter, etc. But kshetra is intimately tied together with the doer of actions or the "knower of the field" kshetra-jna.

 

Thus a kshetra (body) specifically refers to that realm where the kshetra-jna (knower of the field of activities) pervades its consciousness. In this context the individual cells, though macrocosmic individual kshetras themselves, are not involved in the formula established in this verse, as they are not doers of action within the field of our body.

 

For each soul the field of activity will be defined only by where he performs his actions. Thus for us the kshetra is the whole unit of the body, with no concern for the individual cell kshetras. As the sun pervades this entire universe, the "doer of action" (kshetri) pervades "the field of action" (kshetra) with his consciousness.

 

For every "field of activity" there is only one consciousness that is directing the actions within that particular field of activity. Our consciousness is not directing the actions of the cells, and the cells' consciousness is not directing the actions of our body. But the physical realms of both fields of activity overlap each other and exist in necessary harmony with each other.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

It is quite amazing that this discussion can move from whether cells in the body have souls, to people (vaishnavas) openly saying that trees have no souls, bacteria have no souls, potatos have no souls, etc.

 

It is quite shocking to find that there are vaishnavas who after decades of studying our shastras would conclude that trees, bacteria or plants have no individual soul. It is just a step away from the Christians saying animals also don't have souls and can therefore be farmed for meat.

 

Taking descriptions of the universal form to mean there are no individual souls in the world is another shocking thing.

 

For those who respect the opinion of Srila Prabhupada, here are a few statements from him on these topics:

 

 

That difference is due to the development of consciousness. In the human body there is developed consciousness. Even a tree has a soul, but a tree's consciousness is not very developed. If you cut a tree it does not resist.

 

 

A living organism is sometimes manifested even in stone. Experience shows that some hills and mountains grow. This is due to the presence of the soul within that stone. Above that, the next manifestation of the living condition is development of consciousness, and the next manifestation is the development of sense perception. In the Moksha-dharma section of the Mahabharata it is stated that trees have developed sense perception; they can see and smell. We know by experience that trees can see. Sometimes in its growth a large tree changes its course of development to avoid some hindrances. This means that a tree can see, and according to Mahabharata, a tree can also smell. This indicates the development of sense perception. - SB 3.29.28 purport

 

 

Sometimes the material scientist suggests that trees grow from the earth automatically, without assistance from a gardener, because that is a tendency of matter. They also consider the intuition of living creatures from birth to be material. But such material tendencies as bodily intuition cannot be accepted as independent, for they suggest the existence of a spirit soul within the body. Actually, neither the tree nor any other body of a living creature has any tendency or intuition; the tendency and intuition exist because the soul is present within the body.

...

The same principle applies for the automatic growth of trees in the forest. The growth takes place because of the soul’s presence within the tree.

- CC Adi 6.14-15 purport

 

 

From the statements of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and the Bhagavad-gita, we are to conclude that living entities exist everywhere throughout the universes. They are distributed as trees, plants, aquatics, birds, human beings and so on. - CC Madhya 19.144

 

 

There are living entities, 8,400,000 species or forms. And nine... Jalaja nava-lakshani, 900,00 forms in the water. Jalaja nava-lakshani sthavara laksha-vimsati. Two million forms of the trees and plants. In this way there are, altogether, different forms of life, 8,400,000. Don't think that the plants and trees, they have no life. They are also living entities. We do not accept this theory that the animals have no soul. No. Everyone has got soul. Even the plants, trees, everyone has got soul.

 

 

What is the symptom of life? You will find the symptom of life is there in human being, in ant also. How you can say that small creatures, lower animals have no life? That is lack of your knowledge. Even trees, plants, they have got life. So perfect knowledge required.

 

 

However small a body it may have entered, the spirit soul is not impersonal; it has senses. Perhaps one may find a bug on one's book. It is so small, smaller than a pinpoint, but still it moves; it has all the senses. The small bacteria also move, and they have their senses. Originally, all living entities have senses. It is not that the senses have developed under certain material conditions.

[Guruvani]

I will have to try and find that reference where Srila Prabhupada explained that blood cells transfer consciousness throughout they body as the get impreganted with consciousness in the heart where is the seat of the soul.

 

I think that the idea that tissue cells get their lifeforce residually from the human soul is the true explanation of the apparent life of a cell.

 

Batteries are also called "cells" because they take in energy and store energy acquired from an outside energy supply.

 

DNA is a complex chemical which causes cell division under the right circumstances.

 

Cells are part of OUR body. They are not the body of some other jiva.

 

Our body is not made of brahman.

It is made of prakriti.