Did we enter the body at conception or we were already in the sperm before?

[Guruvani]

I have never seen anywhere that Srila Prabhupada said each tissue cell has a soul.

When he was questioned about that he then turned the subject to germs and worms.

Tissuse cells are not germs or worms.

 

The only "germ" cells of the human body are the spermatazoa and the ovum.

a germ cell fuses with another cell during ferilization.

 

Tissue cells are classified as somatic cells because they do not have the ability to fuse with another cell in sexual reproduction.

 

I think the line should be drawn between germline cells and somatic cells, as the germline cells are the only cells that reproduce through sexual fussion.

 

So, I can grant that the germline cells of the spermatazoa and ovum can each have a soul as they are all capable of reproduction through sexual processes.

 

The somatic cells of the body tissues divide through binary fission, so I do not accept that each somatic cell has an individual soul.

 

Srila Prabhupada did say germs have souls.

I have always known that.

 

But, the only germ cells in the human body are in the sperm and the ovum.

(apart from the pathogens that are also called germs)

[theist]

You can take the child to school but you can't make him learn.

[Guest guest]

 

It is quite shocking to find that there are vaishnavas who after decades of studying our shastras would conclude that trees, bacteria or plants have no individual soul.

 

And these are the same people who claim we only need books to be saved

[Guruvani]

can't you clowns do anything besides make smart remarks.

 

one-liner smart remarks shows an IQ of about 0.

 

If you can't contribute to the topic, then why don't you go play in your sandbox?

[theist]

 

And these are the same people who claim we only need books to be saved

Wrong!

 

Guruvani is a work unto himself. And Muralidhar doesn't hold that view if I'm not mistaken.

 

And I do hold the view that the books are sufficent to deliver one to Krsna's feet. But in practical life no one just reads the sastra and commentaries alone in a cave and I have been arguing the opposite opinion to Guruvani.

 

BTW Lowborn since you don't look to the books as your saviour but apparently to the "living guru" (embodied teacher absolutely necessary) camp would you mind sharing who your living guru is since I believe you once said you came to Krsna consciousness after Srila Prabhupada left. Sorry if I'm mistaken on that.

[Guest guest]

 

If you can't contribute to the topic, then why don't you go play in your sandbox?

 

I did. Count my posts here. And I do more science in a week than you did in your entire lifetime.

 

As to the IQ level, lets not get personal because yours can be seen as pretty dismal as well. Some of your comments on this forum are arguably the dumbest I have seen in a while, especially coming supposedly from a well read devotee. The above remarks of other devotees about you are actually very charitable. I'm not that kind, sorry.

 

Here is more than one-liner for you. Enjoy it.

[Guest guest]

 

BTW Lowborn since you don't look to the books as your saviour but apparently to the "living guru" (embodied teacher absolutely necessary) camp would you mind sharing who your living guru is since I believe you once said you came to Krsna consciousness after Srila Prabhupada left. Sorry if I'm mistaken on that.

 

If it was not for the living gurus the books would have been dead for me.

 

Gurus live, and then depart. I make due with what Krsna gives me. I have more than one living person I call my guru and inquire from. But these days the answers mostly come from within, by the mercy of Sri Guru. I worship Him daily in both the mantra-vigraha and sila-vigraha aspects.

[Guruvani]

 

And these are the same people who claim we only need books to be saved

not me pal, I was formally initiated after meeting all the requirements in ISKCON during the time of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Theist is the only person I know of on the forums who says that all you need is books.

 

I have always stressed the need for association with devotees.

 

Theist is the lone stranger BOOKVADI here, not ANYONE ELSE!

 

I am a ritvikvadi, not a BOOKVADI!

[Guest guest]

 

I am a ritvikvadi, not a BOOKVADI!

 

you mean there is a difference?

[Guruvani]

 

you mean there is a difference?

 

sure, ritviks are Vaishnavas and gurus who were empowered by the acharya to train and initiate devotees on behalf of the acharya.

 

where you been for the last 40 year?

under a rock?

[Guruvani]

 

you mean there is a difference?

oh, I forgot to say that I am not exclusively a ritvikvadi.

 

I support the choice of any devotee to accept whoever he wants, be it Kirtanananda, Narayana Maharaja or Bhavananda.

 

Who they choose is not my business.

 

Its all about faith.

 

If somebody wanted ritvik diksha through the GBC, then I think the GBC should have provided that to qualified men that doesn't include Theist.

[Guruvani]

As far as bacteria goes, they don't even have a nucleus.

 

Pathogens are not individual souls as far as I am concerned.

Diseases like cholera, syphilis, anthrax, leprosy and bubonic plague are ghastly deities and forms of Goddess Kali.

Goddess Kali is the soul of the bacteria.

 

Maya Devi is the soul of human tissue cells as Lord Krishna describes that our bodies are produced and awarded to us by material nature - Maya Devi.

 

But, Maya Devi is under control of Paramatma.

 

Maya shakti is causing cell division and awarding us our material body.

 

There is not a jiva in each cell.

There is Maya Shakti in each cell.

[Krishna_Shakha_Dasa]

Hare Krishna!

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I think the line should be drawn between germline cells and somatic cells, as the germline cells are the only cells that reproduce through sexual fussion.

Asexual reproduction occurs all over the place in nature (among plants, insects, fish, etc). To think that souls only exist where there is sexual reproduction is ridiculous and naive. And now that cloning has become prominent it is obvious that your definition for the soul's presence is inaccurate.

 

 

Diseases like cholera, syphilis, anthrax, leprosy and bubonic plague are ghastly deities and forms of Goddess Kali. Goddess Kali is the soul of the bacteria.

Can you back up this speculation with any direct statement from our Acharya, Srila Prabhupada? Or do you only require evidence from others?

[Guruvani]

 

Asexual reproduction occurs all over the place in nature (among plants, insects, fish, etc). To think that souls only exist where there is sexual reproduction is ridiculous and naive. And now that cloning has become prominent it is obvious that your definition for the soul's presence is inaccurate.

 

 

Can you back up this speculation with any direct statement from our Acharya, Srila Prabhupada? Or do you only require evidence from others?

 

jivas don't produce our material bodies.

maya shakti does.

 

that is a basic and elementary conception from the Gita.

 

why does all life have to be attributed to jiva-shakti?

 

doesn't maya-shakti have a major presence in this world?

 

all life is not proof of jiva.

it can also be proof of maya.

[Guruvani]

 

 

 

Can you back up this speculation with any direct statement from our Acharya, Srila Prabhupada? Or do you only require evidence from others?

I am looking to find something.

It's quite obvious that destruction which diseases perform is under the control of Shivashakti.

 

I will look for something more authoritative to show that diseases are forms of KaliMA

 

it is quite common belief in India that Shitala Devi is the goddess of smallpox and diseases of high fever.

It has long been considered that the ill person has been possessed by the goddess and that to cure the disease the deity had to be propitiatied.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Srila Prabhupada settles it pretty clearly, the individual bacteria has an individual soul:

 

 

The soul, the individual soul, is within the elephant, and the individual soul is within the bacteria. Bacteria you cannot find with your open eyes. You have to see with a microscope. It has got the same soul. As the elephant has got the same soul, similarly, the bacteria has also got the same soul. Atraiva mrigyah purusho neti neti. Now you have to analyze. You have to analyze what is soul and what is not soul. That requires intelligence.

 

- Lecture on Srimad Bhagavatm 7.7.22-26 (March 10, 1967)

 

 

Prabhupada: So ant moves because there is soul; the bacteria moves there because there is soul. Similarly, the man moves because there is soul. An animal moves because there is soul.

 

[Guruvani]

tissue cells don't move like bacteria.

 

so, I guess that means they don't have a soul.

 

tissue cells aren't germ cells.

 

Still, no one has produced any evidence that each human tissue cell has an individual soul.

 

bacteria are not human tissue.

 

I still can't compare bacteria with human tissue.

They aren't the same thing.

 

tissue is tissue, bacteria is bacteria - not the same thing.

[Guruvani]

As far as I am concerned, Srila Prabhupada settles the whole argument in this verse from Bhagavad-gita:

 

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 2.17

 

avināśi tu tad viddhi

yena sarvam idaḿ tatam

vināśam avyayasyāsya

na kaścit kartum arhati

 

SYNONYMS

avināśi — imperishable; tu — but; tat — that; viddhi — know it; yena — by whom; sarvam — all of the body; idam — this; tatam — pervaded; vināśam — destruction; avyayasya — of the imperishable; asya — of it; na kaścit — no one; kartum — to do; arhati — is able.

 

 

TRANSLATION

That which pervades the entire body you should know to be indestructible. No one is able to destroy that imperishable soul.

 

 

PURPORT

This verse more clearly explains the real nature of the soul, which is spread all over the body. Anyone can understand what is spread all over the body: it is consciousness. Everyone is conscious of the pains and pleasures of the body in part or as a whole. This spreading of consciousness is limited within one's own body. The pains and pleasures of one body are unknown to another. Therefore, each and every body is the embodiment of an individual soul, and the symptom of the soul's presence is perceived as individual consciousness. This soul is described as one ten-thousandth part of the upper portion of the hair point in size. The Śvetāśvatara Upaniṣad (5.9) confirms this:

 

 

bālāgra-śata-bhāgasya

śatadhā kalpitasya ca

bhāgo jīvaḥ vijñeyaḥ

sa cānantyāya kalpate

 

"When the upper point of a hair is divided into one hundred parts and again each of such parts is further divided into one hundred parts, each such part is the measurement of the dimension of the spirit soul." Similarly the same version is stated:

 

 

keśāgra-śata-bhāgasya

śatāḿśaḥ sādṛśātmakaḥ

jīvaḥ sūkṣma-svarūpo 'yaḿ

sańkhyātīto hi cit-kaṇaḥ

 

[Cc. Madya 19.140]

"There are innumerable particles of spiritual atoms, which are measured as one ten-thousandth of the upper portion of the hair."

Therefore, the individual particle of spirit soul is a spiritual atom smaller than the material atoms, and such atoms are innumerable. This very small spiritual spark is the basic principle of the material body, and the influence of such a spiritual spark is spread all over the body as the influence of the active principle of some medicine spreads throughout the body. This current of the spirit soul is felt all over the body as consciousness, and that is the proof of the presence of the soul. Any layman can understand that the material body minus consciousness is a dead body, and this consciousness cannot be revived in the body by any means of material administration. Therefore, consciousness is not due to any amount of material combination, but to the spirit soul. In the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad (3.1.9) the measurement of the atomic spirit soul is further explained:

 

 

eṣo 'ṇur ātmā cetasā veditavyo

yasmin prāṇaḥ pañcadhā saḿviveśa

prāṇaiś cittaḿ sarvam otaḿ prajānāḿ

yasmin viśuddhe vibhavaty eṣa ātmā

 

"The soul is atomic in size and can be perceived by perfect intelligence. This atomic soul is floating in the five kinds of air (prāṇa, apāna, vyāna, samāna and udāna), is situated within the heart, and spreads its influence all over the body of the embodied living entities. When the soul is purified from the contamination of the five kinds of material air, its spiritual influence is exhibited."

 

 

The haṭha-yoga system is meant for controlling the five kinds of air encircling the pure soul by different kinds of sitting postures — not for any material profit, but for liberation of the minute soul from the entanglement of the material atmosphere.

So the constitution of the atomic soul is admitted in all Vedic literatures, and it is also actually felt in the practical experience of any sane man. Only the insane man can think of this atomic soul as all-pervading viṣṇu-tattva.

The influence of the atomic soul can be spread all over a particular body. According to the Muṇḍaka Upaniṣad, this atomic soul is situated in the heart of every living entity, and because the measurement of the atomic soul is beyond the power of appreciation of the material scientists, some of them assert foolishly that there is no soul. The individual atomic soul is definitely there in the heart along with the Supersoul, and thus all the energies of bodily movement are emanating from this part of the body. The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul. When the soul passes away from this position, the activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases. Medical science accepts the importance of the red corpuscles, but it cannot ascertain that the source of the energy is the soul. Medical science, however, does admit that the heart is the seat of all energies of the body.

 

 

Such atomic particles of the spirit whole are compared to the sunshine molecules. In the sunshine there are innumerable radiant molecules. Similarly, the fragmental parts of the Supreme Lord are atomic sparks of the rays of the Supreme Lord, called by the name prabhā, or superior energy. So whether one follows Vedic knowledge or modern science, one cannot deny the existence of the spirit soul in the body, and the science of the soul is explicitly described in the Bhagavad-gītā by the Personality of Godhead Himself.

 

 

The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul. When the soul passes away from this position, the activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases.

 

 

[Guruvani]

so, the above puport says that the human soul is the cause of the blood generating fission.

 

In the purport the word "fusion" is used, but techincally in science they refer to it as fission not fusion.

[Guruvani]

I think the debate should be over now.

Srila Prabhupada has given the definitive answer in Bhagavad-gita AS IT IS.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Changing Prabhupada's words to fit your view is one way to find your answers. But I certainly see a difference between Srila Prabhupada saying "the activity of the blood, generating fusion" and your interpretation that Prabhupada actually was referring to cell fission and cell reproduction. The activity of the blood is not cell fission. Srila Prabhupada is obviously speaking of the bloods actual function or activity, carrying energy to other parts of the body.

 

How you can read Srila Prabhupada's word and then replace it with the antonym is beyond me. Fission is the opposite of fusion. Either Srila Prabhupada knew what word he was using and it should be left as is, or he didn't know what word he wanted to use, in which case no one can know what he really meant to say. I will just accept Srila Prabhupada's statement as he said it and not replace his words with the opposite word just because it fits my opinion.

 

Regardless, the fact that blood cells carry energy from the soul does not mean the cells are not alive. As already discussed, the one knower-soul (kshetra-jna) spreads his consciousness throughout the entire field (kshetra). This is the mechanics of how he does that.

 

And to clear up your misconception, blood cells do not reproduce themselves by fission. They are produced in the bone marrow. Thus it is impossible that Prabhupada actually meant to say fission instead of fusion.

 

But I hope you have at least come to accept a bacteria as possessing a soul, as well as trees and plants possessing souls. The rest is debatable, but those aren't.

[Guruvani]

 

Changing Prabhupada's words to fit your view is one way to find your answers. But I certainly see a difference between Srila Prabhupada saying "the activity of the blood, generating fusion" and your interpretation that Prabhupada actually was referring to cell fission and cell reproduction. The activity of the blood is not cell fission. Srila Prabhupada is obviously speaking of the bloods actual function or activity, carrying energy to other parts of the body.

 

How you can read Srila Prabhupada's word and then replace it with the antonym is beyond me. Fission is the opposite of fusion. Either Srila Prabhupada knew what word he was using and it should be left as is, or he didn't know what word he wanted to use, in which case no one can know what he really meant to say. I will just accept Srila Prabhupada's statement as he said it and not replace his words with the opposite word just because it fits my opinion.

 

But I hope you have at least come to accept bacteria as possessing a soul, as well as trees and plants possessing souls. The rest is debatable, but those aren't.

then please tell us what kind of "fusion" goes in in the blood?

 

I don't know of any process known as "fusion" that goes on in the blood.

 

please tell us what is the fusion going on in the blood?

 

I have never heard of any process of fusion in the blood, but I have heard of "binary fission" which is what the blood cells do when they divide and multiply.

 

there is no "fusion" in the blood as far as I know.

there is fission going on in the blood and body tissues.

 

maybe you can give a better explanation?

 

even if you say fusion it doesn't change.

[Guest guest]

Prabhupada is obviously speaking about the fusion (uniting activity) happening between oxygen particles and hemoglobin particles of the red blood cells while passing through the lungs.

 

"The corpuscles which carry the oxygen from the lungs gather energy from the soul. When the soul passes away from this position, the activity of the blood, generating fusion, ceases."

 

This uniting activity ceases when the owner of the body dies, despite the fact that both oxygen and hemoglobin are still there, and the red blood cells are still alive.

 

Prabhupada knew the medical science, and he knew cells, considering them to be independently endowed with individual souls. That is clear from his books.

[Guest guest]

 

then please tell us what kind of "fusion" goes in in the blood?

 

I don't know of any process known as "fusion" that goes on in the blood.

 

 

There is all kinds of fusion going on in the blood. Just study the subject even for 10 minutes before you venture an opinion on it.

 

Blood acts as a universal carrier of nutrients (like sugar from the digestive system and oxygen from lungs) as well as metabolical byproducts of the cellular level (like carbon dioxide and urea) to be discarded through lungs and kidneys.