Did we enter the body at conception or we were already in the sperm before?

[Guest guest]

 

Maybe maybe not. I doubt you knew for sure but I am sure you thought you did..

 

this is something that can be said about a lot of things, such as initiations conducted in Prabhupada's name by his disciples prior to his departure, where they used taped mantras, beads not chanted on by Prabhupada, and initiated names chosen by his secretary of dubious purity.

 

in your heart I know what happened.

[Sarva gattah]

Interesting post and well presented however, the difference between the Goloka Vrndavana/Vaikuntha realm and the mahat-tattva is Goloka is full of life (sarva-ghatah) while the mahat-tattva is both, sarva-gattah yet is aways also dead matter even with the presents of the jiva soul. This is the difference between Goloka and the mahat tattva. Personalism is the original and only possition of the conditioned soul.

 

In 1974, at the ISKCON center in the countryside near Frankfurt, West Germany,

Srila Prabhupada: "It's not the person who has died, but the body. According to Vedic knowledge, the body is always dead. For example, a microphone is made of metal. When electric energy passes through the microphone, it responds by converting sound into electrical impulses, which are amplified and broadcast over loudspeakers. But when there is no electricity in the system, nothing happens. Whether the microphone is working or not, it remains nothing more than an assembly of metal, plastic, etc. Similarly, the human body works because of the living force within. When this living force leaves the body, it is said that the body is dead. But actually it is always dead. The living force is the important element; its presence alone makes the body appear to be alive. But "alive" or "dead," the physical body is nothing more than a collection of dead matter".

 

The first teaching of Bhagavad-gita reveals that the condition of the material body is ultimately not very important.

 

 

 

asocyan anvasocas tvam

prajna-vadams ca bhasase

gatasun agatasums ca

nanusocanti panditah

 

"The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead." [bg. 2.11]

 

The dead body is not the real subject for philosophical inquiry. Rather, we should concern ourselves with the active principle -- that principle which makes the dead body move -- the soul.

 

Prof. Durckheim: How do you teach your disciples to become aware of this force which is not matter, but which makes matter appear alive? I can intellectually appreciate that you're speaking a philosophy which contains the truth. I don't doubt it. But how do you make a person feel it?

Srila Prabhupada: It's a very simple matter. There is an active principle which makes the body move; when it is absent, the body no longer moves. So the real question is, "What is that active principle?" This inquiry lies at the heart of Vedanta philosophy. In fact, the Vedanta-sutra begins with the aphorism athato brahma-jijnasa -- "What is the nature of the self within the body?" Therefore, the student of Vedic philosophy is first taught to distinguish the difference between a living body and a dead one. If he is unable to grasp this principle, we then ask him to consider the problem from the standpoint of logic. Anyone can see that the body is changing and moving because of the presence of the active principle, the soul. In the absence of the active principle, the body neither changes nor moves. So there must be something within the body that makes it move. It is not a very cliffficult concept.

 

The body is always dead. It is like a big machine. A tape recorder is made of dead matter, but as soon as you, the living person, push a button, it works. Similarly, the body is also dead matter. But within the body is the life force. As long as this active principle remains within the body, the body responds and appears alive. For instance, we all have the power to speak. If I ask one of my students to come here, he will come. But if the active principle leaves his body, I may call him for thousands of years, but he will not come. This is very simple to understand.

 

But what exactly is that active principle? That is a separate subject matter, and the answer to that question is the real beginning of spiritual knowledge.

 

[Guest guest]

 

you seem to think you are in some superior position because you once enetered into a ceremony with a now fallen ecclesastical guru and consider yourself somehow saved by that. Much like the christians who undergo water baptism and now think they are secure.

 

I never thought like that. You are not saved by initiation - you are simply given important tools to save yourself. Guru helps you save yourself by inspiring you on this journey and by giving you tools needed on the road. When someone personally takes interest in helping you on this road you are naturally grateful to that person. This the essence of the guru business. A book is a tool, a mantra is a tool, a supporting shoulder is a tool, a good advice in time of need is a tool. But without your own interest, sincerity and hard work all those tools are of no consequence.

[Guruvani]

 

Just because you were "in Iskcon" doesn't mean everything was known to you. How many decades are you going to wear that "I was in Iskcon" badge as if it gives you some authority?

How long did you live in an ISKCON temple listening to all the senior devotees preach?

 

Well, I lived in the movement for 8 years with many senior devotees and sannyasis. I joined at the world headquarters and heard many, many lectures and associated with devotees 24-7 for 8 years.

In that time I never heard anyone say that there is a soul in every cell of the body.

Maybe I just missed something.

 

But, I am certainly not going to take the opinion of someone like you, who has never spent a day living in an ISKCON temple, on something that I never heard in all my years with all the original ISKCON devotees.

 

I might be wrong.

You might be wrong.

 

One thing for sure is that you are no authority to give any conclusion since all you have ever done is read from books.

 

I was an initiated brahmana and I lived with devotees everyday, day and night for 8 years.

I am certainly not going to take the opinion of an outsider like you on shastric conclusions.

 

It just strikes me funny that in my 32 years since joining ISKCON I have never heard what you are now saying about there being a soul in every cell of the body.

[Sarva gattah]

 

I never thought like that. You are not saved by initiation - you are simply given important tools to save yourself. Guru helps you save yourself by inspiring you on this journey and by giving you tools needed on the road. When someone personally takes interest in helping you on this road you are naturally grateful to that person. This the essence of the guru business. A book is a tool, a mantra is a tool, a supporting shoulder is a tool, a good advice in time of need is a tool. But without your own interest, sincerity and hard work all those tools are of no consequence.

 

Well written, its not easy attempting to be an aspiring devotee. I've learnt many things from theist and I will take this on board also. Frankly I'm weary of being to0 humble because as soon as you show weakness people kick you while you are down, I experienced that during the pioneering years of ISKCON. Despite what I believe and what others believe, I'm here to also learn, to break down my own impersonal barriers and have my faults exposed and my the understanding of Spiritual life corrected. I'm learning that EVERYTHING has to be backed up with quotes from Srila Prabhupada that others can look up and check - I' m still learning this as I write this post and I thank you guys for just now making me undertand that. Hare Krishna

[muralidhar_das]

 

It is quite amazing that this discussion can move from whether cells in the body have souls, to people (vaishnavas) openly saying that trees have no souls, bacteria have no souls, potatos have no souls, etc.

 

It is quite shocking to find that there are vaishnavas who after decades of studying our shastras would conclude that trees, bacteria or plants have no individual soul. It is just a step away from the Christians saying animals also don't have souls and can therefore be farmed for meat.

 

 

I am not trying to say trees have no souls

 

What I tried to say is that the Devata of a type of tree is controlling the many bodies of a type of tree, in the same way that Indra is controlling all the storms that are scattered all around the world.

 

The soul in a body of a man is very tiny, according to the Vedas. But that soul can control the fingers and toes of its body. That is the idea I have about this issue.

 

Thus, in my OPINION, based upon what I heard from my Guru, the goddess of smallpox is indeed the soul of all smallpox germs and there are not millions of souls in smallpox cells. AIDS in fact may be one "ghost" or it may be another form of the goddess of disease.

 

Guruvani has already posted the quote from your Srila Prabhupada saying that the blood corpuscles get energy and go on their way throughout the body. The blood corpuscles are not individual people and neither are germs of bacteria. Bacteria are parts of the body of the earth, or parts of the "power" or shakti or a particular Deva.

 

Like I said, I am not totally sure about all this, but this is my view or OPINION.

 

And as far as books go, I believe "no book is without its errors" (to quote Thakur Bhaktivinode)

[theist]

 

I never thought like that. You are not saved by initiation - you are simply given important tools to save yourself. Guru helps you save yourself by inspiring you on this journey and by giving you tools needed on the road. When someone personally takes interest in helping you on this road you are naturally grateful to that person. This the essence of the guru business. A book is a tool, a mantra is a tool, a supporting shoulder is a tool, a good advice in time of need is a tool. But without your own interest, sincerity and hard work all those tools are of no consequence.

I can quauntee you that there are those who are in that exact same position without ever undergoing any sacrifical religious rite. So I still fail to see the advantage you claim for yourself as far as having a "real" connection due to your having gone through that initiation formality. I have NO DOUBT that you do have such a connection. Please do not misunderstand me Lowborn. But I believe your connection is due to all the reasons you listed above and not any formality.

 

There is nothing given at any such ceremony that is not available by sincere prayer in the closet of one's own home and heart. Nor am I opposed to any such formal declarations to uphold tradition but we need to see things in their proper perspective.

[AncientMariner]

I always thought the soul was a tiny particle in the heart. I have never read that every cell has a soul.

[muralidhar_das]

JNDas here is a puzzle for you.

 

Could you please show me some evidence that bacteria and blood cells show signs of being conscious individual souls? The capacities of a living being that we associate with "consciousness" namely thinking, willing and feeling, please demonstrate how bacteria exhibit these capacities.

 

According to the Brahma Samhita the smallest form of life is an indragopa creature; and in the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad it states that the indragopa is a scarlet insect - not a single cell organism.

 

 

 

 

 

1.3.6

 

 

The form of that person is like a cloth dyed with turmeric, or like grey sheep's wool, or like the scarlet insect called Indragopa, or like a tongue of fire, or like a white lotus, or like a flash of lightning. He who knows this—his splendour is like a flash of lightning. Now, therefore, the description of Brahman: "Not this, not this" (Neti, Neti); for there is no other and more appropriate description than this "Not this." Now the designation of Brahman: "The Truth of truth." The vital breath is truth and It (Brahman) is the Truth of that.

 

 

Below is a picture of an indragopa - a ladybug or coccinelle

 

http://sanskrit.inria.fr/DICO/11.html

yas tv indra-gopam athavendram aho sva-karma-

bandhanurupa-phala-bhajanam atanoti

karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

"I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who regulates the sufferings and enjoyments of the fruitive activities for everyone, from Indra, the king of heaven, down the smallest insect, the Indragopa. That very Personality of Godhead burns to ashes the karmic reactions of one engaged in His devotional service."

 

[Sarva gattah]

Morning Walks with His Divine Grace A.C.

Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Recorded on May 3, 1973,

 

Srila Prabhupada is accompanied by Dr. Singh and Brahmananda Svami.

 

Srila Prabhupada. Almost everyone in the world is under the false impression that life is born from matter. We cannot allow this nonsensical theory to go unchallenged.

Srila Prabhupada "Life does not come from matter. Matter is generated from life".

 

This is not theory; it is fact. Science is based on an incorrect theory; therefore all its calculations and conclusions are wrong, and people are suffering because of this.

 

When all these mistaken modern scientific theories are corrected, people will become happy. So we must challenge the scientists and defeat them;

otherwise they will mislead the entire society. Matter changes in six phases: birth, growth, maintenance, production of by-products, dwindling

and death. But the life within matter, the spirit soul, is eternal; it goes through no such changes. Life appears to be developing and decaying, but actually it is simply passing through each of these six

phases until the material body can no longer be maintained. Then the old body dies, and the soul enters a new body. When our clothing is old and

worn, we change it. Similarly, one day our bodies become old and useless, and we pass on to a new body.

 

As Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita (2.13), dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara/ tatha dehantara-praptih: "As the embodied soul

continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death." And a little later

(2.18): antavanta ime deha nityasyok-tah saririnah. This means that only the material body of the indestructible and eternal living entity is subject to destruction. The material body is perishable, but the life within the body is nitya, eternal.

 

14.18: Those who are steadfast in Sattva go upward (to heaven); the Rajasic stay in the middle; and the Tamasic immersed in the meanest guna, go down or sink low.

 

The following is within the scope of Upanishads: It appears that material originating from Akāsa (Imperishable Ether) infused with the all-pervading Self, undergoes an evolutionary process from a plant or an amoeba to an animal to a human being".

 

This evolutionary compulsion carries the being from an amoeba to a sannyāsi, who reaches the world of gods on gaining Brahman. At human level, the individual soul displays Buddhi, which is absent in the animals".

[theist]

 

Matter changes in six phases: birth, growth, maintenance, production of by-products, dwindling

and death. But the life within matter, the spirit soul, is eternal; it goes through no such changes. Life appears to be developing and decaying, but actually it is simply passing through each of these six

phases until the material body can no longer be maintained.

 

Here is the key to understanding if life or the soul is present. We must observe these life symptoms.

 

Matter under the influence of the spiritsoul will display these symptoms.

 

Matter not under the influence of the spiritsoul will not and will instead tend to entropy. Life an abandoned car sitting somewhere for years it will be seen to breakdown and decay only. No new baby cars will be born from it. It will not develop a new paint job and the flat tires will not tend to reinflate. Only entropy, a breaking apart of the molecules to their simplest state.

 

Now the human cells unmistakenly exhibit these life symptoms even in a petry dish outside of the influence of the soul whois there as the human which proves another soul is oresent in that cell.

 

We have to learn these life symptoms and not expect every little thing to be written down for us in ancient books.

[Guruvani]

and every scientist will tell you that the reason human cells grow in a petri dish is because each cell has a soul.....

[Guest guest]

 

and every scientist will tell you that the reason human cells grow in a petri dish is because each cell has a soul.....

 

if we look into the lives and theories of these scientists we will find volumes and volumes of speculation, fraud, cheating and lies.

 

these scientists are big time cheaters and liars.

 

I watch all their latest theories and programs on the science documentaries and all their theories and claims are just laughable and ridiculous.

 

these scientists are ignorant fools that make a fat salary dreaming-up all these false theories and false science.

 

really, I don't trust anything these idiots spout-off.

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Those words are yours Guruvani, from another thread.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

According to the Brahma Samhita the smallest form of life is an indragopa creature; and in the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad it states that the indragopa is a scarlet insect - not a single cell organism.

The actual verse of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad simply says "yathendragopo yathāgnyarcir..." which means "he is like an indragopam, he is like a fire's flame...". It in no way says what an indragopam is. The translation you have used has an added commentary that an indragopam is a scarlet lady bug, but that is not stated in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

 

According to my acharya, Srila Prabhupada, an indragopam is a microscopic single celled organism:

 

"Beginning from the germ... There is a germ which is called indra-gopa. You know that among the living entities, the germs are in very minute forms. You cannot see even with your microscope. In a, in a space of one millimeter, you can find millions of germs. That is a scientific truth. Beginning from the germs up to the heavenly kingdom... The king of heaven is called Indra, and the smallest, minutest germ, it is also called indra-gopa in Sanskrit language. So in the Brahma-samhita it is said that "Beginning from this indra up to that Indra..." That means "Beginning from the germ which is known as indra-gopa up to the point of the king who is also known as Indra, all of them are bound up by the reaction of his own karma, or his own work." - Srila Prabhupada, Bhagavad Gita Lecture (August 3, 1966)

 

"Now there are living entities of different grades. There is one living entity, it is very small, microscopic bacteria. It's name is indra. Don't think that bacteria was unknown in the past. The bacteria's also were known. In the Vedic literatures they were known. So there is one... They have got different names. Not that simply they say "bacteria." So one bacteria is called indra-gopa. It is very small. It is to be seen by microscope. So Brahma-samhita says that beginning from this indra, the indra-gopa bacteria, up to the Indra... Another Indra is, he is called the heavenly king. His name is also Indra. This bacteria is called indra-gopa, and the other Indra, who is king of the heaven, he is called Indra. So Brahma-samhita says beginning from this Indra up to that Indra... Beginning from that bacteria up to the king of heaven, yas tv indra-gopam athavendram aho sva-karma, everyone is enjoying or suffering according to his own activities." - Srila Prabhupada, Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture (March 24, 1967)

 

 

Below is a picture of an indragopa - a ladybug or coccinelle

If you really think an indragopam is a laybug, then you must either think our ancient rishis were idiots or that they were completely blind. If the smallest life form you can locate is a lady bug, then you haven't tried very hard. There are plenty of tiny insects that almost require a microscope to see, but are just barely visible. Certainly our rishis weren't fools, and knew there were insects smaller than lady bugs.

 

Here is a picture of a ladybug. This isn't the smallest life form in existence:

 

[muralidhar_das]

indragopa [gopa] a. m. n. protégé d'Indra — m. natu. zoo. coccinelle.

indragopaka [-ka] m. natu. coccinelle | natu. vers luisant.

 

[muralidhar_das]

I think the rishis probably were talking about little bugs like ladybugs when they talked about "indragopa" bugs.

 

They were mentioning little bugs like these because those bugs were the smallest living things they knew about.

 

And again, since you deigned to ignore my question about whether bacteria germs are people I will put this question to you again.

 

 

JNDas here is a puzzle for you.

Could you please show me some evidence that bacteria and blood cells show signs of being conscious individual souls? The capacities of a living being that we associate with "consciousness" namely thinking, willing and feeling, please demonstrate how bacteria exhibit these capacities.

 

And for your information I don't think the Veda Rishis were idiots.

 

I think Veda Rishis presented information about how souls can attain Narayana - that is the purpose of the Vedas. But he Veda Rishis did not write science texts!

 

Additionally, my Guru Maharaj said that there is one soul in a living body, and quoted the following verse in this regard

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> as the sun alone illuminates all this universe, so does the living entity, one within the body, illuminate the entire body by consciousness. (Gita 13. 34)

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> The translation is by "your" acharyya.

 

Your Acharyya says "the living entity, one within the body, illuminate(s) the entire body"

 

 

****************************

 

Bhagavad-gītā As It Is 13.34 yathā prakāśayaty ekaḥ

kṛtsnaḿ lokam imaḿ raviḥ

kṣetraḿ kṣetrī tathā kṛtsnaḿ

prakāśayati bhārata

yathā — as; prakāśayati — illuminates; ekaḥ — one; kṛtsnam — the whole; lokam — universe; imam — this; raviḥ — sun; kṣetram — this body; kṣetrī — the soul; tathā — similarly; kṛtsnam — all; prakāśayati — illuminates; bhārata — O son of Bharata.

[Guruvani]

One thing we know is that Srila Prabhupada always referred to the 8,400,000 SPECIES of life.

As such, a life form must thus be qualified as a species to actually qualify as one of the recognized forms of life.

Here is a definition of "species" which obviously doesn't include tissue cells.

 

 

In biology, a species is one of the basic units of biological classification. A species is often defined as a group of organisms capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring.

That certainly doesn't describe tissue cells in the body.

[muralidhar_das]

There are 8,400,000 species of life according to the Vedas.

 

aquatics, birds, men, plants are on the list.

 

I haven't seen "bacteria" listed anywhere, even though there are a collosal number of species. The fact is, the Veda rishis did not describe bacteria. Or nuclear fission. Or DNA. These topics are outside the area of research of those Mystic Yogis.

 

Bacteria are colored blue, eukaryotes red, and archaea green. Relative positions of some phyla are shown around the tree.

[Guruvani]

Anyone that knows how complex the world of chemistry is certainly understands that there are most certainly chemical reactions going on in nature that mimic the signs of life, which in actuality are simply complex chemical reactions taking place.

 

The chemistry of nature is very complex and sopisticated beyond our imagination. There are certainly chemical reactions taking place in nature that would lead a spiritualist to think there is life there, when in fact it is just a very complex chemical reaction.

 

DNA is one such chemical that science is just beginning to understand.

The complexity of DNA is at this point far out of reach of even our most modern science.

[Vigraha]

The biological human body is a garment provided by Maha-Vishnu that is made up of billions of other embodied jiva-bhutah's each at different stages of evolving from a single cell through to complex organs on their path of evolving back to the biological human form. Human biological existence on the middle planetary systems is not possible without the complex existence of lower life forms. Biological life can only be sustained within the mahat-tattva underunder Krishna’s arrangement by having to 'feed' off other biological bodies or vessels that house the soul. in this way every cell is the vessel of a trapped jiva soul or nity-baddha consciousness. the presents of life means the presents of the jiva, be it a cold virus or a cancer cell etc

68/10/14 Seatle, Bhagavad-gita 2.20-25 -

Vedic literature gives us information that in the fire there is germ also. Just like in water there is germ; in the earth there is germ; in the air there is germ, living entities. Similarly in the fire there is also. And here it is said it cannot be burned. Even it is in the fire, there is no possibility of being burned. So why not in the fire? It requires a different type of body only.

 

That's all. Just like the fish. It has got a different type of body. It is living very comfortably in the water. You have got a different type of body. You are living in the land very comfortably. You cannot live in the water. The fish cannot live in the land. Similarly, in the fiery planet, just like sun, there must be living entities. There must be. You cannot say by any reason that there is no living entities. How you can say? If it is a fact that living entity cannot be burned. Is it not? Just try to understand. Yes.

Bhagavad-gita 2.20-25 -- Seattle, October 14, 1968

Bhagavad Gita 2:29

 

 

 

äçcarya-vat paçyati kaçcid enam

äçcarya-vad vadati tathaiva cänyaù

äçcarya-vac cainam anyaù çåëoti

 

çrutväpy enaà veda na caiva kaçcit

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

 

Some look on the soul as amazing, some describe him as amazing, and some hear of him as amazing, while others, even after hearing about him, cannot understand him at all.

purport

Since Gétopaniñad is largely based on the principles of the Upaniñads, it is not surprising to also find this passage in the Kaöha Upaniñad (1.2.7):

 

 

 

çravaëayäpi bahubhir yo na labhyaù

çåëvanto 'pi bahavo yaà na vidyuù

äçcaryo vaktä kuçalo 'sya labdhä

äçcaryo 'sya jïätä kuçalänuçiñöaù

 

 

 

The fact that the atomic soul is within the body of a gigantic animal, in the body of a gigantic banyan tree, and also in the microbic germs, millions and billions of which occupy only an inch of space, is certainly very amazing. Men with a poor fund of knowledge and men who are not austere cannot understand the wonders of the individual atomic spark of spirit, even though it is explained by the greatest authority of knowledge, who imparted lessons even to Brahmä, the first living being in the universe.

 

Owing to a gross material conception of things, most men in this age cannot imagine how such a small particle can become both so great and so small. So men look at the soul proper as wonderful either by constitution or by description. Illusioned by the material energy, people are so engrossed in subject matters for sense gratification that they have very little time to understand the question of self-understanding, even though it is a fact that without this self-understanding all activities result in ultimate defeat in the struggle for existence. Perhaps they have no idea that one must think of the soul, and thus make a solution to the material miseries.

Some people who are inclined to hear about the soul may be attending lectures, in good association, but sometimes, owing to ignorance, they are misguided by acceptance of the Supersoul and the atomic soul as one without distinction of magnitude. It is very difficult to find a man who perfectly understands the position of the Supersoul, the atomic soul, their respective functions and relationships and all other major and minor details. And it is still more difficult to find a man who has actually derived full benefit from knowledge of the soul, and who is able to describe the position of the soul in different aspects. But if, somehow or other, one is able to understand the subject matter of the soul, then one's life is successful.

 

The easiest process for understanding the subject matter of self, however, is to accept the statements of the Bhagavad-gétä spoken by the greatest authority, Lord Kåñëa, without being deviated by other theories. But it also requires a great deal of penance and sacrifice, either in this life or in the previous ones, before one is able to accept Kåñëa as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Kåñëa can, however, be known as such by the causeless mercy of the pure devotee and by no other way.

http://www.vedabase.com/ used with permission

We know that the physical body consists of many organs which are made up of tissues which are made up of cells. Some ask if we should consider each cell as a living entity - if this premise is correct (as it intuitively seems so!), then each cell must house a soul. In that case with millions of cells in the body not to mention the other living organisms such as bacteria and viruses etc., the bodies of which also must each posses at least one soul, which soul are we talking of when one refers to one's 'soul'?

 

Let us examine a discussion with Srila A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad and Professor Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz, the great mathematician who invented the calculus. He was also a philosopher. The following discussion is which later came about between His Divine Grace and his disciple Shyamasundar dasa:

Shyamasundara: "So even between the atoms of matter there is a spiritual life, spiritual force?"

Prabhupada: "Yes. That force means spiritual force."

Shyamasundara: "He says that all bodies are ultimate quantums of force, that the essential nature of all bodies is force."

Prabhupada: "Yes. Force is the spirit soul. Without the spirit soul, the body has no force. It is a dead body."

Shyamasundara: "But just as there is a dead body of a man lying there, still there is force going on in that body. There are worms coming out..."

Prabhupada: "But that individual soul, force, is not perfect. As Krsna is within the atom, the body is combination of so many atoms, so therefore the force for creating another living entity is there."

Shyamasundara: "So just the decomposing is a force, turning to gasses. So there is force in every body."

Prabhupada: "Yes. That individual soul’s force is stopped. That we call dead body. But Krsna’s force is still there, because it is combination of atoms."

Shyamasundara: "He says that which is manifested to our senses, which occupy space and exists in time, is only an effect of the basic nature, which is transcendental to the physical nature. The physical nature is just an effect of a higher nature."

 

 

 

 

[Vigraha]

Prabhupada: "Physical nature is a by-product. Just like I explained that you create your body. The physical nature is subservient to the soul. Therefore, according to my desire, I get a body. I create a body."

Shyamasundara: "His idea is that these monads, they create bodies."

Prabhupada: "Yes. That I say. So 'ya ya vapi smaran bhava tyajaty ante kalevaram'. At the time of death, as you are thinking, your next body is created. Therefore you create the body."

Shyamasundara: "But does the monad of a, say, a hydrogen molecule, does that also create its own body? Does it only accidentally become part of a water molecule, or does it..."

Prabhupada: "Nothing is accidental."

Shyamasundara: "It also desires to become a water molecule? Does the atom of hydrogen desire to combine with oxygen and become a water molecule?"

Prabhupada: "He... The ultimate desire is of Krsna."

Shyamasundara: "But does each atom, even of matter..."

Prabhupada: "If you take it that way, Krsna is within every atom. So Krsna wants to be it; therefore He is willing to let these two things become one, and there is some creation, and again another creation, and another creation. The ultimate brain is Krsna."

Shyamasundara: "Does the hydrogen molecule have an independent desire?" Prabhupada: "No, but within the hydrogen atom, there is Krsna; therefore it is combining. Not this hydrogen atom as matter is combining, but because Krsna is within that hydrogen atom existing. He knows that by combination this thing will come about, that will come out, that will come out...

Shyamasundara: "But the individual soul has a little independence to choose?"

Prabhupada: "No, no."

Shyamasundara: "Has no independence?"

Prabhupada: "No. The individual soul does not. In Bhagavad Gita it says that 'anumanta', individual soul, wants to do something and Krsna gives orders. Man proposes and God disposes.

Shyamasundara: "So we have no free will?"

Prabhupada: "No. Without sanction of Krsna we cannot do anything. Therefore He is the ultimate cause."

Shyamasundara: "But I thought you had been saying that we have a little independence."

Prabhupada: "That independence that Krsna wants me to do something but I want to deny it. But unless Krsna sanctions, you cannot do that also."

Shyamasundara: "What I’m trying to get at is that if we desire something and we take a body because of that desire, can a hydrogen molecule desire to become part of water and be given that body? Does it have the independence to desire something and take a body accordingly? The hydrogen molecule, does it have a life?"

Prabhupada: "So far as we get information, our knowledge is from the Vedic information, 'antantara-stha paramasu': Krsna is within, the Paramatma. It does not say the soul is within, the Paramatma."

Shyamasundara: "It doesn’t say that an individual soul is present within the atom?"

Prabhupada: "No. Krsna is present."

Shyamasundara: "So then this philosophy of Leibnitz is not correct."

Prabhupada: "No."

Shyamasundara: "Because he says in matter there is also this kind of individuality."

Prabhupada: "That individual is Krsna. Krsna knows that so many atoms will be combined, then another thing will be formed. It is not the individual soul but Krsna directly."

Shyamasundara: "But when you come to the living entities, then the individual soul is also there."

Prabhupada: "Yes. Within the body. Both of them—Krsna is also there, and the individual soul is also there."

Shyamasundara: "He says that the definition of substance is a being capable of action. Substance means to be capable of action, and that existence means action."

Prabhupada: "Substance is original. Other things are categories."

Shyamasundara: "So being capable of action, is that a good definition of substance?"

Prabhupada: "Yes. Substance means the original cause, so He is completely able to act."

Shyamasundara: "He says to be is to be active."

Prabhupada: "Yes, to be means to be active. Without activity, what does it mean to be?"

Shyamasundara: "He says that these monads change in their appearances because the inner desire impels it to pass from one phenomenal representation to another."

Prabhupada: "The monad does not change, but his mind has changed. But I do not know what this means, monads. He is complicating. He cannot express what is this monad."

Shyamasundara: "Monad is very vague. It means a small unit of oneness or unity, which is the substance behind everything else, even the atom."

Prabhupada: "That is Krsna. Krsna is fully independent."

Shyamasundara: "He says, for instance, that a monad changes its appearance according to its desires."

Prabhupada: "That indication is for the soul. But Krsna is not that. Krsna is 'kuta'; means he does not change."

Shyamasundara: "He says just like this thing, (holding up an object) it will change to another thing, to another thing, to another thing, depending on its desire, which impels it to change. He says that even behind some object there is some ability to change."

Prabhupada: "That I have already said. Just like Krsna, first of all He created the whole total cosmic energy, and then, by His plan, by His devices, He divides into so many things, changes, parts and parts and parts. It can be taken in that way. The material changes are going on according to the will of God, or Krsna. Is that clear?" (Philosophy Discussions with Professor Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibnitz)

[Guruvani]

can the moderators please stop this vigraha person from clogging up topics with large font copy and paste.

 

none of us are blind here.

we don't need IN YOUR FACE huge font copy and paste dissertations.

 

we are trying to have a discussion and bounce ideas off of each other.

 

this vigraha guy doesn't appear to fit into any discussion as all he wants to do is get in everyone's face with his loud posts.

 

if somebody doesn't do something about it I will be going away from this forum.

[Vigraha]

hare krishna hare krishna

krishna krishna hare hare

hare rama hare rama

rama rama hare hare

[Guruvani]

 

your like a barking dog Guruvani, the moderater is not your mummy

 

whatever you say....

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

indragopa [gopa] a. m. n. protégé d'Indra — m. natu. zoo. coccinelle.

indragopaka [-ka] m. natu. coccinelle | natu. vers luisant.

 

First off, you have copied a segment from a sanskrit-french dictionary. I really have no idea why you did that, but I would guess it probably reflects something about your sanskrit knowledge. Your view is that indragopa in english means "coccinelle", but of course that isn't even an english word. It's a french word. So I seriously doubt you have any academic experience as to what the word means or how it is used.

 

Just like the word timingila is translated today as "shark" (when it actually referred to gigantic fish that could swallow ships), so in the same way the microscopic indragopa is today reffered to as a ladybug.

 

From traditional usage the word never referred to lady bugs, but in modern indic languages ladybugs are called indragopa, just as today sharks are called timingila.

 

You have already stated that you think this ladybug is the smallest visible insect in the world, but anyone with eyes knows the size of a lady bug. They are around half a centimeter in length. If we take a simple insect like lice, which has been universally known about throughout the world for thousands of years, we can easily see that lady bugs would not have been the smallest known insect in ancient India. Your speculation that indragopa refers to some other tiny bug is just something off the top of your head. Either you should accept the dictionary definition you have provided (a ladybug), or you should show some traditional usage that identifies indragopa with your speculation.

 

Otherwise we are left to choose between muralidhar and his opinion on the meaning of indragopam - backed up with a french dictionary entry he has copied from some website, or the traditional opinion as presented by Srila Prabhupaa. Add to muralidhara's evidence a "reference" from Brihad Aranyaka Upanishad that never actually existed, and it just adds up to bad scholarship filled with speculation. Everyone is free to choose which view makes more sense:

 

Muralidhara's view:

"I think the rishis probably were talking about little bugs like ladybugs when they talked about "indragopa" bugs."

Prabhupada's view:

"Beginning from the germ... There is a germ which is called indra-gopa. You know that among the living entities, the germs are in very minute forms. You cannot see even with your microscope. In a, in a space of one millimeter, you can find millions of germs. That is a scientific truth. Beginning from the germs up to the heavenly kingdom... The king of heaven is called Indra, and the smallest, minutest germ, it is also called indra-gopa in Sanskrit language. So in the Brahma-samhita it is said that "Beginning from this indra up to that Indra..." That means "Beginning from the germ which is known as indra-gopa up to the point of the king who is also known as Indra, all of them are bound up by the reaction of his own karma, or his own work." - Srila Prabhupada, Bhagavad Gita Lecture (August 3, 1966)

 

"Now there are living entities of different grades. There is one living entity, it is very small, microscopic bacteria. It's name is indra. Don't think that bacteria was unknown in the past. The bacteria's also were known. In the Vedic literatures they were known. So there is one... They have got different names. Not that simply they say "bacteria." So one bacteria is called indra-gopa. It is very small. It is to be seen by microscope. So Brahma-samhita says that beginning from this indra, the indra-gopa bacteria, up to the Indra... Another Indra is, he is called the heavenly king. His name is also Indra. This bacteria is called indra-gopa, and the other Indra, who is king of the heaven, he is called Indra. So Brahma-samhita says beginning from this Indra up to that Indra... Beginning from that bacteria up to the king of heaven, yas tv indra-gopam athavendram aho sva-karma, everyone is enjoying or suffering according to his own activities." - Srila Prabhupada, Srimad Bhagavatam Lecture (March 24, 1967)

 

Let everyone decide for themselve's which view to believe.