Ananta Sesa Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Is there a limit to the material world, or is it limitless? Since the material part of the creation is 1/4 and the spiritual world is unlimited, shouldn´t then also the material world be without limits? Because if the material world has a limit, it would mean that the spiritual world is unlimited times bigger than the material... On the other hand, since all the universes eventually will go back into Mahavishnus body, it seems that there IS a limit to the material world, otherwise how could all the universes go back, and then out and in, out and in for eternity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Yep, one quarter of infinity is also infinity. Which is why I take the "1/4th" number to be figurative. The size of the material manifestation may be arbitrary (that is to say, each breath of Maha-Vishnu may not be the exact same length, thereby giving the universe more or less time to expand), but, if it does expand and contract with the breath of Maha-Vishnu, then it stands to reason that it must be of finite dimensions. Is there a limit to the material world, or is it limitless? Since the material part of the creation is 1/4 and the spiritual world is unlimited, shouldn´t then also the material world be without limits? Because if the material world has a limit, it would mean that the spiritual world is unlimited times bigger than the material... On the other hand, since all the universes eventually will go back into Mahavishnus body, it seems that there IS a limit to the material world, otherwise how could all the universes go back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ananta Sesa Posted July 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Yep, one quarter of infinity is also infinity. Which is why I take the "1/4th" number to be figurative. The size of the material manifestation may be arbitrary (that is to say, each breath of Maha-Vishnu may not be the exact same length, thereby giving the universe more or less time to expand), but, if it does expand and contract with the breath of Maha-Vishnu, then it stands to reason that it must be of finite dimensions. So then the material manifestation is both finite and infinite at the same time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 just try to understand what Vyasadeva gave in his trance. Vaysadeva gave Srimad Bhagavatam from trance. Obviously, what he saw in trance might be different than what we see with our telescopes. Just try to understand the message of Srimad Bhagavatam without attaching limitations on it based upon what science and our telescopes say. It's all there in the Bhagavatam. You have to study the whole course. It's too much to try and understand from a forum discussion. Get it from the source - not from hearsay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 So then the material manifestation is both finite and infinite at the same time? We cannot properly perceive or conceive of the nature of infinity from where we are presently. I accept the view that Murali put forward. A part of infinity is also infinity even though it is a smaller part. Acintya. Inconceivable. Just like Krsna is infinite and the jiva is infitesimal. But the jiva is also infinite because of the oneness with Krsna. Simultaneously inconceivably one and different. Lord Caitanya's revelation harmonizes pure monism and pure dualism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 The universes are resting on the hoods of Lord Anantasesa. On him they appear to be no more than mustard seeds. The shastra never describes the material universe as unlimited. We should understand it from shastra, not from fanciful imaginations of conditioned souls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 My previous reply was from the rational standpoint. Here, theist takes things to the spiritual plane. Regardless of whether the material universe has finite dimensions (in terms of 3-D, height, width, length), it is certainly observed that, the material world is *NOT* Vaikuntha. That is to say, unlike Vaikuntha (which means "Without Limit"), there are many limitations in the material realm. Even if the mundane laws of physics are not applicable 100% of the time in the material world, for all intents and purposes, I will not be able to fly (in this particular body) under my own power and without any mechanical aids regardless of what austerities I may undertake. At best, after so much tapasya, I might be able to levitate a few inches. Here, my will is so very limited in terms of what it can influence. When our wills are in harmony with the Supreme Will, nothing is an obstacle for us. We cannot properly perceive or conceive of the nature of infinity from where we are presently. I accept the view that Murali put forward. A part of infinity is also infinity even though it is a smaller part. Acintya. Inconceivable. Just like Krsna is infinite and the jiva is infitesimal. But the jiva is also infinite because of the oneness with Krsna. Simultaneously inconceivably one and different. Lord Caitanya's revelation harmonizes pure monism and pure dualism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 The universes are resting on the hoods of Lord Anantasesa.On him they appear to be no more than mustard seeds. The shastra never describes the material universe as unlimited. We should understand it from shastra, not from fanciful imaginations of conditioned souls. Endlessly confused. We are not talking about the material universe we are talking about the material manifestation housing 1/4 of all souls and the number of souls is unlimited. So you do the math. A part of infinity is still infinity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Is there a limit to the material world, or is it limitless? Imagine a virtual reality game called Material World. The space created (simulated) within it is limitless, yet in the sense of the real, outside world it has definite limits. Each universe is a reality game within a reality game, where individual universe's space appears unlimited. It goes even further. Each dimension (world) within the universe appears unlimited to it's inhabitants. What we see through the telescope at night is all merely a part of simulated reality called the Earthly World. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Imagine a virtual reality game called Material World. The space created (simulated) within it is limitless, yet in the sense of the real, outside world it has definite limits. Each universe is a reality game within a reality game, where individual universe's space appears unlimited. It goes even further. Each dimension (world) within the universe appears unlimited to it's inhabitants. What we see through the telescope at night is all merely a part of simulated reality called the Earthly World. What a lovely way to envision this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ananta Sesa Posted July 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 The universes are resting on the hoods of Lord Anantasesa.On him they appear to be no more than mustard seeds. Don´t you mean the stars and the planets within each universe? I have never read or seen a depiction of Maha-Vishnu resting on Lord Ananta-Sesa, only Garbhodakasayi Vishnu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Don´t you mean the stars and the planets within each universe? I have never read or seen a depiction of Maha-Vishnu resting on Lord Ananta-Sesa, only Garbhodakasayi Vishnu. Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.25.2 yasyedaḿ kṣiti-maṇḍalaḿ bhagavato 'nanta-mūrteḥ sahasra-śirasa ekasminn eva śīrṣaṇi dhriyamāṇaḿ siddhārtha iva lakṣyate SYNONYMS yasya — of whom; idam — this; kṣiti-maṇḍalam — universe; bhagavataḥ — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; ananta-mūrteḥ — in the form of Anantadeva; sahasra-śirasaḥ — who has thousands of hoods; ekasmin — on one; eva — only; śīrṣaṇi — hood; dhriyamāṇam — is being sustained; siddhārthaḥ iva — and like a white mustard seed; lakṣyate — is seen. TRANSLATION Śukadeva Gosvāmī continued: This great universe, situated on one of Lord Anantadeva's thousands of hoods, appears just like a white mustard seed. It is infinitesimal compared to the hood of Lord Ananta. Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 5.119 pañcāśat-koṭi-yojana pṛthivī-vistāra yāńra eka-phaṇe rahe sarṣapa-ākāra SYNONYMS pañcāśat — fifty; koṭi — ten millions; yojana — eight miles; pṛthivī — of the universe; vistāra — breadth; yāńra — whose; eka-phaṇe — on one of the hoods; rahe — stays; sarṣapa-ākāra — like a mustard seed. TRANSLATION The universe, which measures five hundred million yojanas in diameter, rests on one of His hoods like a mustard seed. You are correct that the portraits don't show Ananta Sesa with Maha-Vishnu, but the shastric descriptions seem to indicate that he is there in causal ocean with Maha-Vishnu. the pictures don't seem to jive with the texts. like you, I am a little confused, but I take the texts over the pictures. all this is very elusive and inconceivable and it seems like the shastra likes to keep us wondering about Ananta Sesa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.25.2 yasyedaḿ kṣiti-maṇḍalaḿ bhagavato 'nanta-mūrteḥ sahasra-śirasa ekasminn eva śīrṣaṇi dhriyamāṇaḿ siddhārtha iva lakṣyate SYNONYMS yasya — of whom; idam — this; kṣiti-maṇḍalam — universe; bhagavataḥ — of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; ananta-mūrteḥ — in the form of Anantadeva; sahasra-śirasaḥ — who has thousands of hoods; ekasmin — on one; eva — only; śīrṣaṇi — hood; dhriyamāṇam — is being sustained; siddhārthaḥ iva — and like a white mustard seed; lakṣyate — is seen. TRANSLATION Śukadeva Gosvāmī continued: This great universe, situated on one of Lord Anantadeva's thousands of hoods, appears just like a white mustard seed. It is infinitesimal compared to the hood of Lord Ananta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 5.25.3 yasya ha vā idaḿ kālenopasañjihīrṣato 'marṣa-viracita-rucira-bhramad-bhruvor antareṇa sāńkarṣaṇo nāma rudra ekādaśa-vyūhas try-akṣas tri-śikhaḿ śūlam uttambhayann udatiṣṭhat SYNONYMS yasya — of whom; ha vā — indeed; idam — this (material world); kālena — in due course of time; upasañjihīrṣataḥ — desiring to destroy; amarṣa — by anger; viracita — formed; rucira — very beautiful; bhramat — moving; bhruvoḥ — the two eyebrows; antareṇa — from between; sāńkarṣaṇaḥ nāma — named Sāńkarṣaṇa; rudraḥ — an incarnation of Lord Śiva; ekādaśa-vyūhaḥ — who has eleven expansions; tri-akṣaḥ — three eyes; tri-śikham — having three points; śūlam — a trident; uttambhayan — raising; udatiṣṭhat — arose. TRANSLATION At the time of devastation, when Lord Anantadeva desires to destroy the entire creation, He becomes slightly angry. Then from between His two eyebrows appears three-eyed Rudra, carrying a trident. This Rudra, who is known as Sāńkarṣaṇa, is the embodiment of the eleven Rudras, or incarnations of Lord Śiva. He appears in order to devastate the entire creation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 I have never read or seen a depiction of Maha-Vishnu resting on Lord Ananta-Sesa, only Garbhodakasayi Vishnu. Brahma-samhita 5.47 I adore the primeval Lord Govinda who assuming His own great subjective form, who bears the name of Śeṣa, replete with the all-accommodating potency, and reposing in the Causal Ocean with the infinity of the world in the pores of His hair, enjoys creative sleep [yoga-nidrā]. PURPORT (The subjective nature of Ananta who has the form of the couch of Mahā-Viṣṇu, is described.) Ananta, the same who is the infinite couch on which Mahā-Viṣṇu reposes, is a distinctive appearance of the Divinity bearing the name of Śeṣa, having the subjective nature of the servant of Kṛṣṇa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Chaitanya Bhagavat sahasra phaṇāra eka-phaṇe 'bindu' yenaananta vikrama, nā jānena, 'āche' hena "He is so large and powerful that this universe rests on one of His hoods just like a drop of water. He does not know where it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Chaitanya Bhagavat sahasra-vadane kṛṣṇa-yaśa nirantaragāite āchena ādi-deva mahī-dhara "While bearing the universe on one of His hoods, Anantadeva chants the glories of Kṛṣṇa with each of His thousands of mouths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 I don't know why artists never painted Maha-Vishnu as on the bed of Ananta Sesa. Unless it was to distinguish Maha-Vishnu from Garbhodakashayi Vishnu? strange.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guruvani Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 I don't know why artists never painted Maha-Vishnu as on the bed of Ananta Sesa.Unless it was to distinguish Maha-Vishnu from Garbhodakashayi Vishnu? strange.... Śrī Brahma-saḿhitā 5.47 yaḥ kāraṇārṇava-jale bhajati sma yoga- nidrām ananta-jagad-aṇḍa-sa-roma-kūpaḥ ādhāra-śaktim avalambya parāḿ sva-mūrtiḿ govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi SYNONYMS yaḥ — He who; kāraṇa-arṇava — of the Causal Ocean; jale — in the water; bhajati — enjoys; sma — indeed; yoga-nidrām — creative sleep; ananta — unlimited; jagat-aṇḍa — universes; sa — with; roma-kūpaḥ — the pores of His hair; ādhāra-śaktim — the all-accommodating potency; avalambya — assuming; parām — great; sva-mūrtim — own subjective form; govindam — Govinda; ādi-puruṣam — the original person; tam — Him; aham — I; bhajāmi — worship. TRANSLATION I adore the primeval Lord Govinda who assuming His own great subjective form, who bears the name of Śeṣa, replete with the all-accommodating potency, and reposing in the Causal Ocean with the infinity of the world in the pores of His hair, enjoys creative sleep [yoga-nidrā]. PURPORT (The subjective nature of Ananta who has the form of the couch of Mahā-Viṣṇu, is described.) Ananta, the same who is the infinite couch on which Mahā-Viṣṇu reposes, is a distinctive appearance of the Divinity bearing the name of Śeṣa, having the subjective nature of the servant of Kṛṣṇa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ananta Sesa Posted July 18, 2007 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 You are correct that the portraits don't show Ananta Sesa with Maha-Vishnu, but the shastric descriptions seem to indicate that he is there in causal ocean with Maha-Vishnu. the pictures don't seem to jive with the texts. like you, I am a little confused, but I take the texts over the pictures. all this is very elusive and inconceivable and it seems like the shastra likes to keep us wondering about Ananta Sesa. Thank you for the clarification! http://www.geocities.com/dipalsarvesh/mahavishnu.jpg In this picture also without Ananta Sesa, but of course, sastra says that Ananta Sesa should be also there! Here we can see all of the 3 Purusa-avatars, each with Lord Ananta Sesa... http://www.bhagavadgitausa.com/GOVINDA.htm Anybody knows if also Ananta Sesa with Ksirodakasayi Vishnu upholds something on His hoods, like the other two? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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