Is Jesus also Vishnu?

[theist]

 

My Christian experience seems to be very vaisnava. I am not relying 1st on the doctrine and theology of either religion. Rather, I am saying I look at both in context of my personal experience.

 

So I am really enlivened (again) by this discussion because it feels like a genuine discussion among godbrothers having unique experiences.

 

It would be fantastic to someday have a kirtan with such wonderful and sincere and knowledgable godbrothers.

 

HS and yours.

A real Christian experience IS a vaisnava experience.

 

Various cultural forms of worship and tradition are not important to me. This is real religion to me:

 

From Matthew 22

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'^[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'^[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

 

 

I accept neighbor to be all other souls in existence even though it couldn't be put that way at that time to the Jewish priests.

 

 

 

It is really nice to have a conversation without arguments that masquerade as debate.

 

 

 

 

Yes a kirtan would be nice but it would have to be a fairly big kirtan so I could hide my horrible singing.

[gHari]

 

I think that a special section of the forum for "middle eastern" religions should be created and all the discussions around Jesus and Mohammed should be kept in that section of the forum.

 

Do to the frequent clashes between the students of Indian philosopical schools and the fans of the middle-eastern religions, it might be prudent to just keep these discussions on seperate sections of the forum?

 

the way this section of the forum is going now it is like trying to put Hare Krishnas, Jesus people, Muslim people, Buddhists and Monists into the same room and expecting them all to get along and have productive discussions.

 

Invariably, it ends up in dissention.

But then, we can see who is on the mental platform and who is sincere. Most of 'religion' is just ego maintenance, no different than the 'my car is bigger than your car' mentality. Quarrel and hyprocrisy is the natural by-product of this Kali swing furthest from God, like a comet whose path approaches chaos before gradually getting drawn back to the center of its orbit, minimal gravity influences and minimal God influences.

 

And by the way, my God IS bigger than your God. And my God can beat up your God.

 

A proud son,

 

gHari

[suchandra]

 

there are about three or four Jesus whiners on the forum that always drag "spiritual discussions" down to religious sentiment.

I personally don't even consider the discussion of Jesus or Mohammed as anything close to a "spiritual discussion".

Talking about Jesus is just material sentment and shouldn't even be allowed in a forum section that is supposed to be about spiritual discussions.

 

There are about three Jesus whiners on this forum that are really holding this forum back.

Most spirituallly minded people just turn around and walk out when the Jesus whiners start their whining about Jesus.

 

These Jesus whiners have run-off many spiritual people with their ridiculous sentmental excuse for "spiritual discussions".

Probably you mean Prabhupada, who said "Jesus is our guru". That Prabhupada didnt spoke of Jesus like Christians do but from the perspective of spiritual mysticism and genuine symptoms of love to God is to be expected that not anyone can grasp this. There're surely some on the forum who misunderstand Prabhupada when speaking about Jesus.

[Guruvani]

 

Probably you mean Prabhupada, who said "Jesus is our guru". That Prabhupada didnt spoke of Jesus like Chrisitans do but from the perspective of spiritual mysticism of genuine symptoms of love to God is to be expected that not anyone can grasp this. There're surely some on the forum who misunderstand Prabhupada when speaking about Jesus.

 

that statement is not in the books.

it was just a social compromise to placate the sentimentalists through a cheating process of transcendental trickery.

 

I would never believe that Jesus is guru to any Hare Krishna devotee.

That was just Srila Prabhupada's preaching device he used to win over the sentimentalists.

 

I don't accept it as a literal fact.

It was just a preaching device with no real basis in fact.

 

Jesus wasn't even in any bona fide disciplic succession.

I don't consider him as a true devotee much less a guru.

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati didn't even consider him as a Vaishnava.

He said the Vaishnavas are millions of times greater than Jesus.

 

As a preacher in western countries Srila Prabhupada compromised and played along with the western sentiment about Jesus, but is was just a preaching device and not actual Gaudiya siddhanta.

[suchandra]

 

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati didn't even consider him as a Vaishnava.

 

This was when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati was just about to take over India and soon later the British East India Company paid millions to infiltrate the Gaudiya-matha and destroy it from within and at the same time print any amount of money to introduce Russian Communism to keep economical control over India. Since Hinduism in sum is nothing but hidden mayavadha, the only religion coming close to Vaishnavism is Lord Jesus' teachings, not Hinduism. Jesus never said, God is the void, we're God, God is energy. All this is what Hinduism is teaching, pure mayavadha.

[suchandra]

Srila Prabhupada recognizes Lord Jesus Christ as "the son of God, the representative of God... our guru... our spiritual master," yet he has some sharp words for those who currently claim to be Christ's followers. He speaks explains in such way that also material brains can understand:

 

"The Srimad-Bhagavatam states that any bona fide preacher of God consciousness must have the qualities of titiksava, tolerance and karuna, compassion. In the character of Lord Jesus Christ we find both these qualities. He was so tolerant that even while he was being crucified, he didn't condemn anyone. And he was so compassionate that he prayed to God to forgive the very persons who were trying to kill him. Of course, they could not actually kill him. But they were thinking that he could be killed, so they were committing a great offense. As Christ was being crucified he prayed, "Father, forgive them. They know not what they are doing."

 

A preacher of God consciousness is a friend to all living beings. Lord Jesus Christ exemplified this by teaching, "Thou shalt not kill." But the Christians like to misinterpret this instruction. They think the animals have no soul, and therefore they think they can freely kill billions of innocent animals in the slaughterhouses. So although there are many persons who profess to be Christians, it would be very difficult to find one who strictly follows the instructions of Lord Jesus Christ.

A Vaisnava is unhappy to see the suffering of others. Therefore, Lord Jesus Christ agreed to be crucified-to free others from their suffering. But his followers are so unfaithful that they have decided, "Let Christ suffer for us, and we'll go on committing sin." They love Christ so much that they think, "My dear Christ, we are very weak. We cannot give up our sinful activities. So you please suffer for us."

Jesus Christ taught, "Thou shalt not kill." But his followers have now decided, "Let us kill anyway," and they open big, modern, scientific slaughterhouses. "If there is any sin, Christ will suffer for us." This is a most abominable conclusion.

 

Christ can take the sufferings for the previous sins of his devotees. But first they have to be sane: "Why should I put Jesus Christ into suffering for my sins? Let me stop my sinful activities."

Suppose a man-the favorite son of his father-commits a murder. And suppose he thinks, "If there is any punishment coming, my father can suffer for me." Will the law allow it? When the murderer is arrested and says, "No, no. You can release me and arrest my father; I am his pet son," will the police officials comply with that fool's request? He committed the murder, but he thinks his father should suffer the punishment! Is that a sane proposal? "No. You have committed the murder; you must be hanged." Similarly, when you commit sinful activities, you must suffer-not Jesus Christ. This is God's law.

 

Jesus Christ was such a great personality-the son of God, the representative of God. He had no fault. Still, he was crucified. He wanted to deliver God consciousness, but in return they crucified him-they were so thankless. They could not appreciate his preaching. But we appreciate him and give him all honor as the representative of God.

Of course, the message that Christ preached was just according to his particular time, place, and country, and just suited for a particular group of people. But certainly he is the representative of God. Therefore we adore Lord Jesus Christ and offer our obeisances to him.

Once, in Melbourne, a group of Christian ministers came to visit me. They asked, "What is your idea of Jesus Christ?" I told them, "He is our guru. He is preaching God consciousness, so he is our spiritual master." The ministers very much appreciated that.

Actually, anyone who is preaching God's glories must be accepted as a guru. Jesus Christ is one such great personality. We should not think of him as an ordinary human being. The scriptures say that anyone who considers the spiritual master to be an ordinary man has a hellish mentality. If Jesus Christ were an ordinary man, then he could not have delivered God consciousness."

[mahak]

I hear quacking, but no longer have to read thru the nonsense proposed by the one who always gets so upset when devotees choose to discuss one of their own, Lord Jesus Christ. I imagine he is quacking again about how Srila Prabhupada is duplicitous and patronizing and pandering to the christian community. If he is, this is the greatest offense against Srila Prabhupada if one is a disciple of his, to minimize his teachings in such a puffed up manner. I actually turned this dude off because of such statements he always makes.

 

Unfortunately, I do read some of his garbage when another tries to answer him and quoting him. It doesnt do any good to quote him, because he argues with himself as well. But he talks about chasing away the good people who would otherwise be here. Why dont you go with them, these sectarian jihadist hindus that hate to hear the mere mention of Lord Jesus Christ. One spammer was already run off because of his rude comments under three names. Are these the spiritual people he is talking about?

 

The thing is, there is a hidden Lord Jesus Christ. He hides from even those who profess allegiance to what they imagine to be him. Lord Jesus Christ masde this exacting prediction "In the future, there will be those who heal the sick and baptize in my name, but I will say to them "I dont know you, get away from me, you have failed to honor the will of he who has sent me""

 

So, we have conversations about Lord Jesus Christ on the spiritual discussions section of audarya fellowship forum. If one scrolls down, one will find a hindu.org forum, a hare krsna.org section. And Lord Jesus makes his appearance there often as well. Why is that? Because Lord Jesus Christ has canvassed all to honor the will of his father who has sent him, and Lord Father Narayana has made Lord Jesus Christ so famous as a spiritual personality in history that he is discussed positively by everyone in the world.

 

Now there is a false jesus, the hero of the armageddonists engaged in genocide for 2000 years in his name. The cotton mathers of the world who burn innocent women for curing infants. The pat robertsons of the world recommending race extermination. The founders of manifest destiny programs to wipe out indigenous cultures using the weapon used to kill christ as their own swords. This is the jesus of fanaticism, and this jesus is also rejected by Lord Jesus Christ himself, in much the same manner that Srila Prabhupada rejects the vaisnava disguised kali cela.

 

But here, we have discussions of the real jesus chrisT. How is he real? Because we receive him from the lips of the devotee Srila Prabhupada, who tells us of his selfless service to his Father. Srila Prabhupada recognized the real Lord Jesus Christ because he has the vision to differentiate between demon and devotee. Those who always spout off about jesus not being up to par are not the authorities, because they have not passed the criteria of being beyond the kanistha adhikari state, meaning they quack because they have no ability to even see a vaisnava. These are the same who will accept white slavery adherants as their guru and come whining about it later when their guru splashes down in some prison somewhere or in some looney bin.

 

So, I accept the authority of Lord Jesus Christ because I am an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada never repeated the same old drivel of the cotton matherites, those who actually declared war on Srila Prabhupadas movement from the very start. Srila Prabhupada hears the real Lord Jesus Christ and works with him in canvassing all to honor the will of the Supreme Lord. They are not against each other, they work in unison.

 

I actually am more disgusted with the real whiner of these forums than the no-holds-barred folk(s) who were edited off yesterday. This offense of accusing my guru maharaja of pandering to the christian by saying nice things about jesus is so blatantly demoniac as well as false. Did Srila Prabhupada pander to the hippie movement? Did he pander to the recreational drug industry? The military industrial congressional complex? Did he pander to the zionists? The sex industry, hollywood, bollywood? Did he pander to the wave of gurus arriving in droves with rock stars as their advertizements?

 

No, Srila Prabhupada does not pander to anyone to gain material advantage or create duplicitous propaganda, He does not say Jesus this and Jesus that like the phony christian ministers who fail to do the will of the Father. My spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, calls him LORD JESUS CHRIST, and my spiritual master has his own trademark that I defy anyone to disprove, he says it AS IT IS.

 

I agree with one thing the dude says, get rid of the whiners.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[sanatan]

An eloquent masterpiece of a post!

[HerServant]

 

I don't think that the forums at "INDIADIVINE" should constantly be disrupted by a handful of Jesus whiners who are like flies in the ointment of the great philosophical systems of India.

 

Guruvani, have you ever visited Kerala or Tamil Nadu? Last time I checked, they too are part of India. You should understand that you are very offensive to people from Kerala having a long intertwined history with Christianity, whether they be Hindu, Muslim or Christian.

 

A community known as Saint Thomas Christians has existed in Kerala

from very ancient times. They celebrate the feast of the Apostle

on the third of July. It is for them a day of obligation and

national rejoicing. They call it "Dukrana" (Commemoration) being

the day of his martyrdom according to tradition. It is believed

that the Apostle landed at Kodungalloor on the twenty-first of

November.

The sacred office of the oriental rite of Kerala for "Dukrana"

with its Octave reiterates the tradition. No other place or rite

keeps this Octave. The kindling of the light of faith, the opening

of the gate of heaven to the Indians and the glorious martyrdom of

the Apostle are commemorated in these prayers.

In the commemorative prayers of the Nestorian Church for the feast

of St. Thomas, it is clearly stated that the Apostle died a martyr

in India and his relics were translated to Edessa by a merchant

named Kabir.

The Malayalam popular songs of antiquity, known as "Thoma parvam"

and "MargamKali Pattu," describe vividly the advent of Thomas in

Kerala, his apostolate here and his martyrdom near a temple of the

goddess Kali at Mylapore, on the third of July, 72. "The Ramban

Songs" are also popular ballads which the St. Thomas Christians

have sung from generation to generation, narrating the work of

Thomas in Kerala. These ballads are believed to have been composed

by Ramban Thomas Maliekal who received baptism and priesthood from

the Apostle. The "Veeradian pattukal" are other popular melodies

sung by Hindus on special occasions. They extol the preaching of

Thomas in Kerala and the special privileges granted later by King

Cheraman Perumal to Kerala Christians.

The tomb of Thomas is traditionally believed to be at Mylapore. No

one has ever questioned this belief, and no other place has

claimed to contain his tomb. The Kerala Christians used to go on

pilgrimages every year to the tomb. They considered it their duty

to do so at least once in their lives. This practice continued

uninterrupted until 1654.[8]

According to tradition Thomas erected seven churches in Kerala at

Kodungalloor, Palayur, Parur, Kokkamangalam, Nilackal, Niranam and

Quilon. Hindus and Mohammedans also maintain this tradition and

offer prayers and gifts at these churches.

No one else claims to have introduced Christianity in Kerala. The

Church of Mesopotamia and Babylon respect the tradition of Kerala.

In 1542, the people of Sokotra told Saint Francis Xavier that

Thomas, after spreading the Gospel in their land, went to Malabar

and died a martyr at Mylapore.[9]

....e Doctrine of the Apostles>, a Syriac book produced in Edessa

in the second century, expressly declares that India received the

Apostle's "Hand of Priesthood" from Saint Thomas who planted and

built the church there. Abdias who was Bishop of Babylon (second

century), Dorotheus (third century), Saints Ephraem, Jerome,

Ambrose (fourth century), Theodore (fifth century), Saint Gregory

of Tours (sixth century), Saint Isidore (seventh century) and all

the early Fathers of the Church have attested to the preaching of

Thomas in India and his martyrdom in Mylapore. Ephraem further

states that the relics of the Apostle were transferred from

Mylapore to Edessa by a merchant.[10] Source: http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/KERALA.TXT

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada, calls him LORD JESUS CHRIST,

 

he also referred to "Lord Buddha" but the Vaishnavas don't have anything to do with his teachings.

 

He also referred to "Lord Nelson" and some other "Lords".

 

the "Lord Jesus" preaching was just a device as far as I am concerned.

 

We have to understand the difference between preaching tactics and actual Gaudiya siddhanta or we end up with a sentimental mess in our minds.

 

We can't dwell eternally in the preaching tactics of early ISKCON.

This Jesus stuff has now become a serious obstacle for some "devotees" who have been around for 35 years and never joined a temple, performed any service to the mission or got proper initiation.

 

Obviously, this Jesus mess is a problem for some neophyte devotees.

[HerServant]

 

he also referred to "Lord Buddha" but the Vaishnavas don't have anything to do with his teachings.

 

He also referred to "Lord Nelson" and some other "Lords".

 

Obviously, this Jesus mess is a problem for some neophyte devotees.

 

Prabhupada said Jesus is Isvara:

 

 

Bob: I asked one this, and he claimed that Jesus was also eating meat in the Bible.

Srila Prabhupada: That's all right. He may eat anything. He is powerful. But he has ordered, "Thou shalt not kill. You must stop killing." He is powerful. He can eat the whole world. But you cannot compare to Jesus Christ. You cannot imitate Jesus Christ; you have to abide by his order. Then you are guided by Jesus Christ. That is actually obedience. That is explained in the Bhagavata. One who is isvara, who is empowered, can do anything, but we cannot imitate. We have to abide by his order: "What he says to me, that I will do." You cannot imitate. You say that Jesus Christ ate meat. Admitting that, you do not know in what condition he ate meat. He is himself eating meat, but he is advising others not to kill. Do you think that Jesus Christ was contradicting himself?

- http://www.harekrishnatemple.com/bhakta/perfect.html

[theist]

This is what mahaksa and I see when this foul demon possessed of hellish mentality who mockingly calls himself guruvani posts.

 

 

<table id="post1064272" class="tborder" align="center" border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr title="Post 1064272"><td class="thead" style="font-weight: normal;"> Today, 07:13 AM </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1">

Guruvani </td> </tr> <tr> <td class="alt1"> This message is hidden because Guruvani is on your ignore list.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

Go to cp scroll down on the sidebar to the ignore list and type in guruvani. This brings much relief until he manages to disturb the whole thread.

 

Until the Mods see fit to ban(again)this demon troll dressed as a vaisnava and as virtually every other vaisnava forum has done, he will continue to disturb the other members who want to peacefully discuss spiritual life.

 

Late last night the this thread and it's progressive mood was attacked by the demon scholar/analyst/guest and the Mods removed those posts and I again thank them for it.

 

But just like Vrndavan forest the demons kept coming in trying to destroy Krsna and the Krsna conscious mood.

 

This present giant ass thinks because he lived in an Iskcon temple imitating a devotee for few years he has an eternal license to offend great souls.

 

If it walks like a duck(demon) quacks like a duck(demon) it surely is a demon.

 

I mean really how much of a problem does someone have to be to get themselves banned?

 

His mouth has taken him to hell and it will take him even further down but we don't want to get drag there with him by hearing him.

 

I pity him in some way, similar to how one would pity Gollum, from the Tolkien Lord of the Rings, series for his need to make what he thinks is himself the center of attention at all costs.

 

However just because he is a tortured soul does not give him the right to torture others.

[HerServant]

 

This is what mahaksa and I see when this foul demon possessed of hellish mentality who mockingly calls himself guruvani posts.

 

 

 

Go to cp scroll down on the sidebar to the ignore list and type in guruvani. This brings much relief until he manages to disturb the whole thread.

 

Until the Mods see fit to ban(again)this demon troll dressed as a vaisnava and as virtually every other vaisnava forum has done, he will continue to disturb the other members who want to peacefully discuss spiritual life.

 

Haribol! Thanks to Theist we now no how to "step in it" or "taste it"

[HerServant]

 

This is what mahaksa and I see when this foul demon possessed of hellish mentality who mockingly calls himself guruvani posts.

 

Go to cp scroll down on the sidebar to the ignore list and type in guruvani. This brings much relief until he manages to disturb the whole thread.

 

 

Hare Krsna! It Works! On the top bar just under Audarya Fellowship select:

 

User CP (short for User Control Panel)

 

There is a buddy/ignore list setting.

 

Thank you again theist!

[theist]

 

Hare Krsna! It Works! On the top bar just under Audarya Fellowship select:

 

User CP (short for User Control Panel)

 

There is a buddy/ignore list setting.

 

Thank you again theist!

 

You are most welcome. I discovered it by accident while trying to just block him from sending me any more vile PM's. It was more than I hoped for. It's been 3 days now of relative peace but still his being allowed to post here is disturbing the mood which I can't help but pick up on when he is quoted by others as mahak mentioned.

[riih.qarojamahoamaan]

"If one loves Krishna, he must love Lord Jesus also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus he must love Krishna too. If he says, "Why shall I love Krishna? I shall love Jesus," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus? I shall love Krishna", then he has no knowledge either. If one understands Krishna, then he will understand Jesus. If you understand Jesus, you'll understand Krishna too"

(Srila Prabhupada - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg, May 12, 1969 / Columbus - Ohio)

IT IS EASY TO FIND DIFFERENCES BETWEEN RELIGIONS AND THUS DIVIDE PEOPLE. THAT IS THE PURPOSE, TO DIVIDE PEOPLE!

ALL THAT I HAVE READ OF SWAAMI PRABhUPADA, IS EXACTLY WHAT ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS BELIEVE ABOUT GOD, ONLY NAMES DIFFER. YOU MUST SEE THE ESSENCE BEYOND THE NAMES.

APOSTLE PAUL HAS WRITTEN: "HAS CHRIST BEEN DIVIDED, BROTHERS? SOME OF YOU FOLLOW ME, SOME FOLLOW OTHER TEACHERS, WHY, DID I SACRIFICE MYSELF ON THE CROSS FOR YOUR SAKE? SO WHY FOLLOW ME? OR WHY FOLLOW THAT TEACHER?"

NOW I SAY, IT IS NO MERE COINCIDENCE THAT THE NAME "KhRISTOS" (CHRIST) IS SIMILAR TO "KRSNA" (IN SOME INDIAN LANGUAGES IT IS PRONOUNCED KRISTA INSTEAD OF KRSNA).

YOU PROBABLY KNOW THAT THIS IS THE ERA OF PISCES. PISCES IS THE ARCHETYPE VICTIM. IN THIS ERA GOD ASSUMED THE FORM OF THE SACRIFICIAL VICTIM (CHRIST), SO WE CAN ALL BENEFIT FROM THE REMNANTS OF THE SACRIFICE, THAT IS HIS FLESH AND BLOOD AT THE SACRAMENT OF "HOLY EUCHARIST". "EUCHARIST" WAS THE CHRISTIAN TERM FOR THE RITE OF A SACRIFICE.

THANK YOU.

[mahak]

 

"If one loves Krishna, he must love Lord Jesus also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus he must love Krishna too. If he says, "Why shall I love Krishna? I shall love Jesus," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus? I shall love Krishna", then he has no knowledge either. If one understands Krishna, then he will understand Jesus. If you understand Jesus, you'll understand Krishna too"

(Srila Prabhupada - Room conversation with Allen Ginsberg, May 12, 1969 / Columbus - Ohio)

IT IS EASY TO FIND DIFFERENCES BETWEEN RELIGIONS AND THUS DIVIDE PEOPLE. THAT IS THE PURPOSE, TO DIVIDE PEOPLE!

ALL THAT I HAVE READ OF SWAAMI PRABhUPADA, IS EXACTLY WHAT ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS BELIEVE ABOUT GOD, ONLY NAMES DIFFER. YOU MUST SEE THE ESSENCE BEYOND THE NAMES.

APOSTLE PAUL HAS WRITTEN: "HAS CHRIST BEEN DIVIDED, BROTHERS? SOME OF YOU FOLLOW ME, SOME FOLLOW OTHER TEACHERS, WHY, DID I SACRIFICE MYSELF ON THE CROSS FOR YOUR SAKE? SO WHY FOLLOW ME? OR WHY FOLLOW THAT TEACHER?"

NOW I SAY, IT IS NO MERE COINCIDENCE THAT THE NAME "KhRISTOS" (CHRIST) IS SIMILAR TO "KRSNA" (IN SOME INDIAN LANGUAGES IT IS PRONOUNCED KRISTA INSTEAD OF KRSNA).

YOU PROBABLY KNOW THAT THIS IS THE ERA OF PISCES. PISCES IS THE ARCHETYPE VICTIM. IN THIS ERA GOD ASSUMED THE FORM OF THE SACRIFICIAL VICTIM (CHRIST), SO WE CAN ALL BENEFIT FROM THE REMNANTS OF THE SACRIFICE, THAT IS HIS FLESH AND BLOOD AT THE SACRAMENT OF "HOLY EUCHARIST". "EUCHARIST" WAS THE CHRISTIAN TERM FOR THE RITE OF A SACRIFICE.

THANK YOU.

 

Haribol, and thank you very much for your wise post, sir. If only people could get rid of these shackles of what Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur refers to party spirit, the blindness of sectarianism.

 

Her Servant makes a very important point here to the residents of Bharatavarsa. Didyamous Thomas, the intimate and very thoughtful disciple of Lord Jesus Christ, siding with the queen of Magdalia over the obsessiveness of Simon Peter and thus obtaining special favor with Lord Jesus Christ, did, indeed, carry the message to India.

 

When we find these threads, there is always the mention of the demoniac political expansionism carried out by slave traders who used the image of christ to justify their horrid genocide. The sectarian fools will try to say these folks are christians, but here is exactly what happened in India. When the imperialists flying the slave trading flag of Portugal arrived in India, with ther witch doctor priests awaiting native girls as their spoils, they found an intact Christian Community already in place. The entire worship methodology was standard Hinduism, yet they worshipped Lord Jesus Christ and Didyamous Thomas as the origin gurus, deliverers of the message of the Supreme Godhead. And what did the anti-christians do? Enslaved them. Packed them into their ships and sent them to the Carribbean. Then what happened? These folks influenced their black brothers brought from Mali and other righteous kingdoms, and we have as their heirs the rastafarians, who are also Christian abyssinians, following their precious Nag Haqmadi and Kebra Nagast, adopting the dreadlock of their Indian brothers.

 

Lord Jesus Christ does not get dismissed by fools. His potency is well understood. No other has become more famous the world over. And why is that? He was self-depriciating, refusing the adulation of even his own disciples, forbidding them to even refer to him as a good man. His humility is the greatest asset one can find in the presence of a vaisnava. But he was stalwart in glorifying Lord Narayana. Because he taught of enabling us to have a reciprocal relationship with this Supreme Father, by his example, Lord Narayana reciprocates his Son's Love by making Him the most famous spiritual personality in history.

 

His teachings may be lost and fragmented, but his love of us and his love of the father is beyond the realm of those who will forever enslave the devotees. He is sufficiently rewarded, he served as Lord Jesus in separation, and now is with him, carried by Him, actually served by him, even though he is not part of a religion system favored by the sectarianist. If this sounds like Haridas Thakur, it is meant to.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Oh, and BTW, I dont quote for specific reasons, one of being which the mad quoters of the forums have presented the most ridiculous revisionist nonsense ever. For eleven years, I have asked readers of my commentaries to not believe them, but rather do the real work to decide whether I speak the TRUE or not. The intelligent readers have often corrected me, and I have always stood corrected. But quote machines have no realizations of their own, all they have is veda bases and often cut and paste things that fully defeat their own ideas they are trying to convey.

 

So, no, I dont throw a lot of quotes around, what I do do is to tell folks where I get my info, and let them read if they want to see where I am coming from. If I want someone to understand guru-tattwa, Im not going to rely on documents and private letters of dubious authority and authenticity, Ill refer them to Srimad Bhagavatam, where Srila Sukadeva Goswami appears to the dying King Pariksit. The whole of guru tattwa is contained there, not in some letter recieved by a disciple in anxiety or a contrived organizational memo written to managers of a preaching apparatus.

 

haribol, and again, thanks for your post, Sri qarojamahoamaan. ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

Wow I was somewhat fearful of opening this thread this evening but what a pleasant surprise. The Mods have been kept busy lately and it shouldn't be. We should police ourselves and have a more mature and gentle board.

 

I would like to raise a practical question. Presently Christianity is very very poor in the philosophy/theological department IMO while it has other strengths. Lots of basically descent good hearted people with a giving disposition. But we have been taught that religion without philosophy is mental speculation and we know that it takes more than mere sentiment to keep bhakti-lata-bija-growing without being stepped on and the followers mislead. Proper siddhanta is a sheild against the outer world and repeated birth and death.

 

I see the first need of Christianity is to have a clearly developed understanding of themselves as soul and not the body. Of course we all need this realization but I am speaking of just the intellectual level here.

 

Sharing what we have learned about the soul with the Christians would be a great service to Lord Jesus Christ and Krsna and would please Srila Prabhupada very much.

 

How do we bridge the gap? Is it possible even?

[gHari]

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If we listen to Srila Prabhupada speak about Lord Jesus Christ then we cannot even think for a moment that he is trying to snow his audience. That love he had for Jesus cannot be feigned like an actor in a play.

 

Mahaksadasa is very right: twisting and spinning Prabhupada's words to serve our own prejudices and lack of realization is simply offensive. So we see the progression of offending many vaishnavas, to offending Christ, and finally to offending Srila Prabhupada himself. Why so many offences over and over? What is it we want that we need to fall so far, so quickly?

[Tirisilex]

I just went to a Pentacostal Church tonight.. I cannot see any similarities accept for Morals and a supreme being. Other than that they differ alot in teachings.. Christ doesnt teach Samsara.. He doesnt teach Maya.. In Christianity your natural nature is Evil.. you need Christ to cover it up..

[HerServant]

 

I just went to a Pentacostal Church tonight.. I cannot see any similarities accept for Morals and a supreme being. Other than that they differ alot in teachings.. Christ doesnt teach Samsara.. He doesnt teach Maya.. In Christianity your natural nature is Evil.. you need Christ to cover it up..

 

Pentacostals are not apostolic christians having any system of GSS whatsoever.

 

Try these christians instead, then decide:

 

 

http://www.vagamon.com/kurisumala/kurisumala.htm

 

http://www.conventualsindia.org/communities7.php

[theist]

Christians and Muslims alike reject reincarnation. And without understanding reincarnation there can be no rational understand of the way things work. The early church fathers like Origen did but the church ultimately reject it.

 

To understand reincarnation one must understand that the self is not the body. Not understanding this is where the eternal heaven or hell thinking comes in.

 

There is a verse they always quote which says it is appointed once for a man to die then the judgement. They think that closes the issue. But we also say that. If a person becomes God conscious in this life then no more appointments. If he doesn't he is judged in need of further work and a new prision term is arranged by his prarabdha karma.

 

What they fail to see is that we have already been judged and are now serving our sentence. Eternal damnation is actually a refference to samsara, the cycle of birth and death or as the Bible puts it "outer darkness". Or what we call bahiranga(if I remember right).

 

I have heard reincarnation called the missing link in Christianity.

[HerServant]

 

Wow I was somewhat fearful of opening this thread this evening but what a pleasant surprise. The Mods have been kept busy lately and it shouldn't be. We should police ourselves and have a more mature and gentle board.

 

I would like to raise a practical question. Presently Christianity is very very poor in the philosophy/theological department IMO while it has other strengths. Lots of basically descent good hearted people with a giving disposition. But we have been taught that religion without philosophy is mental speculation and we know that it takes more than mere sentiment to keep bhakti-lata-bija-growing without being stepped on and the followers mislead. Proper siddhanta is a sheild against the outer world and repeated birth and death.

 

I see the first need of Christianity is to have a clearly developed understanding of themselves as soul and not the body. Of course we all need this realization but I am speaking of just the intellectual level here.

 

Sharing what we have learned about the soul with the Christians would be a great service to Lord Jesus Christ and Krsna and would please Srila Prabhupada very much.

 

How do we bridge the gap? Is it possible even?

 

Well, I felt this way for a little while especially after discovering the SB. But I don't agree now.

 

I think what you *might* be saying is that Christians just have the message of Jesus in such a watered down state. They cannot convey nor can they understand Jesus' message.

 

Hence .. "No philosophy"

 

But this document is filled with fantastic gems:

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

 

Trouble is .. no one reads and meditates on the teachings, neither catholics or protestants.

[HerServant]

 

Christians and Muslims alike reject reincarnation. And without understanding reincarnation there can be no rational understand of the way things work. The early church fathers like Origen did but the church ultimately reject it.

 

To understand reincarnation one must understand that the self is not the body. Not understanding this is where the eternal heaven or hell thinking comes in.

 

There is a verse they always quote which says it is appointed once for a man to die then the judgement. They think that closes the issue. But we also say that. If a person becomes God conscious in this life then no more appointments. If he doesn't he is judged in need of further work and a new prision term is arranged by his prarabdha karma.

 

What they fail to see is that we have already been judged and are now serving our sentence. Eternal damnation is actually a refference to samsara, the cycle of birth and death or as the Bible puts it "outer darkness". Or what we call bahiranga(if I remember right).

 

I have heard reincarnation called the missing link in Christianity.

 

Well .. the transmigration of the body to animal or from animal to body was rejected by St. Justin. I personally don't think his arguments hold water. BUT I think reincarnation is actually there in the doctrine of Purgatory.

 

The catholic history of teaching on purgatory includes life on earth as a part. If you go to purgatory after death, you get a new body and you are in a higher existence if in purgatory after this world of purgatory.

 

That is a reincarnation of sorts.

 

There is something unique to Christian teaching in this regard. If studied carefully, it is saying, that the prayers of the saints and the church get you to move up a notch on the spiritual plane and no matter what you don't have to take a birth on planet earth again.

 

Not saying I buy it, but it is interesting.

[suchandra]

 

Trouble is .. no one reads and meditates on the teachings, neither catholics or protestants.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur somehow did, he wrote in his biography completed on June 21, 1896 :

 

 

Bhakti and devotion to Jesus

 

At that time Midnapur was very conducive to one's health. At the request of Mahendra Mama, one employee, a Mahishadal named Haramohan Sen, reserved a rented house for me. Upon arriving there we met with Raj Narayan Babu. In accordance with his advice I rented a house in Karnelaganga and moved there within a short time. At that time the community of Midnapur was turbulent. Some folk were followers of Raj Narayan Vasu Babu, and thus they were Brahmos.

Some folk were rigid Hindus and other folk were drunkards; others were without any dharma or karma. In every group there were two to four prominent leaders. Even though I worked closely with Raj Narayan Babu I was in the Hindu group. I spoke with the Matalas but did not associate with them. Gradually some people became my followers. They were generally young and learned or seeking learning.

In those days my thoughts on religion were to the effect that dry knowledge was best, and that the religion of the Brahmos was not good. I thought the brotherly philosophy taught by Jesus Christ was excellent. The taste derived from such worship was due to the Christian devotion to Jesus. I read all the books written by Theodore Parker and others, and books on Unitarianism I got from Calcutta. Because of these books my mind was attracted toward the devotion of Jesus. From the time of my childhood I had faith in bhakti. During the time I was in Ulagram hearing Hari Kirtan produced bliss in me.