Is Jesus also Vishnu?

[theist]

 

Well, I felt this way for a little while especially after discovering the SB. But I don't agree now.

 

I think what you *might* be saying is that Christians just have the message of Jesus in such a watered down state. They cannot convey nor can they understand Jesus' message.

 

Hence .. "No philosophy"

 

But this document is filled with fantastic gems:

 

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

 

Trouble is .. no one reads and meditates on the teachings, neither catholics or protestants.

 

Well to be honest when making a comparison between the Bible and Bhaktivedanta literature there is no doubt which is on a higher level. I should say I speak as a reborn pentecostal Christian. It was due to my receiving a slight bit of mercy from Jesus Christ as in baptism of the Holy Spirit that I came to Krsna consciousness. I grew up an atheist and then had an epiphany (rebirth) at one point in my life and radically changed course.

 

But I am far from accepting the Bible as the word of God except for the teachings of Christ and there is eternal truth in the rest of the Bible also,but there is a lot of other stuff there as well which was just Jewish history. Actually I often ask Christians why they carry around the Old Testament at all.

 

Truth be told there is no sound consistent teaching as to what is the soul etc. Christ himself told his disciples that, "there are many other things I wish to tell but you cannot bear them now but when the Holy Spirit(Caitya guru) comes upon you he will lead you into all truth."

 

As I see the mission of Jesus it was not to write theology but to show mankind through the Jewish context the simple truth about how we can change our hearts and gain the forgiveness of God through learning to forgive ourselves which is far more important than philosophy but proper siddhanta is important also.

[theist]

 

Well .. the transmigration of the body to animal or from animal to body was rejected by St. Justin. I personally don't think his arguments hold water. BUT I think reincarnation is actually there in the doctrine of Purgatory.

 

The catholic history of teaching on purgatory includes life on earth as a part. If you go to purgatory after death, you get a new body and you are in a higher existence if in purgatory after this world of purgatory.

 

That is a reincarnation of sorts.

 

There is something unique to Christian teaching in this regard. If studied carefully, it is saying, that the prayers of the saints and the church get you to move up a notch on the spiritual plane and no matter what you don't have to take a birth on planet earth again.

 

Not saying I buy it, but it is interesting.

 

Yes and even Origen was not all that clear on it but he was definetly getting some knowledge from within.

 

But you know what I am saying I think, It may be there but you have to look for it. Some say it was taken out. I don't know but it is such a preliminary doctrine that it should just be understood.

 

Also if the soul was seen as existing in animals just like it says in Genesis first chapter then a case for animal rights would make sense to Christians much more than it presently does.

[theist]

 

I thought the brotherly philosophy taught by Jesus Christ was excellent. The taste derived from such worship was due to the Christian devotion to Jesus.

 

Jai Bhaktivinode, a truly unfettered thinker.

[theist]

 

Would the christian "Vaisnavas" please quote the bible elsewhere....

 

Don't like the conversation then don't read it.

 

What do you think you are God and we should only post for your enjoyment?

[Guest guest]

I agree with Mahaksa prabhu.

 

I'm not a Christian and neither do I read or follow the Bible but I can look at Jesus Christ and admit that he is a truly exalted & bonafide Acarya, the likes of which are extremely rare. But I cannot accept that he is the Supreme Lord.

 

My acceptance of his Acarya status and rejection of 'he is God' claim is not based on my own perception, for I do not in the slightest have any form of realization. It is based upon what I have read and now believe with conviction.

 

 

So, Jesus is not visnu, and those who say he is are NOT pleasing to him, because he admonishes his disciples for even calling him "good rabbi", saying only god is good.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[riih.qarojamahoamaan]

keep on insulting if you wish to keep on dividing people.

When hindus are divided between Shaivas and Vaisnavas, then Vaisnavas divided between krsna worshippers and Naaraayana worshippers, and then Swaaminaaraayanaas divided between BAPS and the rest, and division goes on and on with the consequent conflict, then it is quite expected that Christ will not be accepted as Visnu's incarnation by hindu spiritual leaders.

In fact, even the Spanish hero El Cid should be considered Visnu's incarnation; his story is really similar to that of lord Raama. But he is not thought to be Visnu's incarnation, only because he appeared elsewhere, not in India.

After all, this is kaliyuga. Kali means war and conflict, is this right?

There is a famous church in Istanbul, modern Turkey, one of the best known monuments of the world, called "Hagia Sophia", that is "the temple of of God's Holy Wisdom"; since years i have a vision: to have people chanting the Saawitrii mantra in perfect sanskrt pronunciation under the dome of "Hagia Sophia" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, taking turns. I do not say that Saawitrii is the only potent or the only correct method of worship; but it is the only one that can unite all people regardless of religion. Even satanists should take shelter of the Saawitrii, because Satan too worships the only true God, like all demons and all angels do. So not only Christians and other Vaisnavas, but all people can unite under the Saawitrii; no religion can disagree with what the Saawitrii says. So it should be chanted all the time in the temple of Hagia Sophia which is just right in between West and East; but i know this project will not be embraced by Christians, nor by Muslims who occupy the ground of Instanbul; why? because they r fanatics!

Better be stupid than fanatic; stupid can change, fanatic can not change.

[mahak]

Not too many can grasp the teachings of Sophia. The Queen of Magdalia, the primary disciple of Lord Jesus Christ, who actually probably was also Queen Mekeda, the wife of King Solomon, is the great example of wisdom. Wisdom is the point where the devotee stays the course, as confirmed by Bhagavad Gita. Krsna describes others who may come to him, the miserable, the needy, and the inquisitive. But these three types, though they may come to Krsna, will leave if they do not obtain Sophia.

 

Sophia is the wife of God. There is no disillusion for one who is wise, because disillusionment can only approach one in illusion. So we see this falling away, when folks become happy, when folks become rich, when one gains a little knowledge. But riches, happiness and knowledge do not even approach wisdom, not even in the same league. To a wise person, one who has Sophia, understanding of the relationship between Solomon and Mekeda, Lord Jesus and Mary of Magdalia, Sri Sri Radha Krsna, these folks hold no distinction between happiness and distress, wealth and poverty, knowledge and illiteracy. This Sophia has actually been touched upon by Her Servant as the key simplicity of Krsna Consciousness.

 

So, Bhagavad Gita welcomes those who come with selfish motives of need for happiness, need for money, need for knowledge, but Krsnaq insists that while you have come, become wise. Otherwise, one will not stay.

 

Fanaticism is in no way connected with real religion. Religious fanatic is the greatest oxymoron, the phrase has no meaning because it is composed of diametrically opposed ideas. One who is truely religious cannot be a fanatic, because genuine religion insists on Sophia as being the center.

 

You have touched upon a subject that is a rare topic and not understood because of kali yuga fanaticism. Fanaticism is the basis for genocide, crimes against humanity. Without Sophia, there is no possibility to follow Lord Jesus Christ, Krsna, nor any other spiritual ideology, because the prime commandment of equal vision is disregarded. If a christian sees a muslim with fear and loathing, the Lord Jesus says, "get away from me, I know you not". If a vaisnava discriminates against "karmis", then the rudimentary ideas of vaisnava philosophy is not there at all, because Lord Krsna states that the wise sage (the one filled with Sophia) sees the brahmana, the flea, the dog, the dog eater, etc. with equal vision.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

 

 

"Theology is the discourse about God, blessed be His Name.

Only those who have known God, and their disciples, are able

 

to speak about Him." HH Pope Shenouda III

mahak: Christian philosophy is actually vast. Eurocentrism and the theft of christianity by mysogenistic power broker descendants of constantine do not want the christian to see how vast the actual philosophy is, so with book burnings and bannings, they have condensed under the flag of canon, the whole picture. What they have allowed are motivational speeches by Paul. Imagine Krsna Consciousness if all we have of Prabhupadas teachings is memoes to the GBC and a few lettgers to specific disciples. This is what christianity has become to some, and we see that there are many who claim prabhupada as master are also satisfied with such summary studies.

But the teachings of Lord Jesus cannot be hidden by such contrivance. The coptics and many other cultures that were reached by the extraordinary mission of Lord Jesus Christ cannot be contained by political censorship. Annihilated like the Cathars of France, maybe, but they went full of wisdom. The Pirates, too, are originally the disciples of St John the Baptist. They have their skull and crossbones as a reminder of the fanatics who do not accept real theology nor accept one who gives God Consciousness freely.

Haribol, yes, it is nice to have freedom of religion again here on the net. Thanks, mods.

[mahak]

A very nice song by the rastafarian shaman (Jah-mon) Bob Marley is a song about Sri Sri Parvarti Nataraja.

 

Got to have Kaya now. I heard from a nice brother from Trinidad that this song is the sweet relationship available with Maahakaaya. I always thought that song had great import, and when the saivite rasta told me this, very nice. Funny, too, that I found the name Srila Prabhupada gave me understood and appreciated by a wandering mendicant from the caribbean, a descendant of Punjab as well as Mali.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[HerServant]

 

I thought the brotherly philosophy taught by Jesus Christ was excellent. The taste derived from such worship was due to the Christian devotion to Jesus. I read all the books written by Theodore Parker and others, and books on Unitarianism I got from Calcutta. Because of these books my mind was attracted toward the devotion of Jesus. From the time of my childhood I had faith in bhakti. During the time I was in Ulagram hearing Hari Kirtan produced bliss in me.

 

This is very interesting and puts things in a proper light. First that HH Bhaktivindod Thakur was sincerely non sectarian. 2nd, that his exposure to Christian teaching was presented from Unitarian views.

 

Unitarian perspective is generally considered as heresy by apostolic (unbroken disciplic succession of Jesus). They reject the idea of the Trinity and propagate many other false teachings.

 

 

Frm this date until his death in 1842, Channing was the acknowledged leader of the denomination. Under his auspices the American Unitarian Association was founded at Boston in 1825 for the promotion of Unitarian interests.

 

After his death the radical element became predominant under the direction of Theodore Parker (1810-60), who succeeded him in influence. The authority of the Bible acknowledged by the old school was, under Parker, largely sacrificed to the principles of destructive criticism, and Unitarianism drifted rapidly into Rationalistic speculation.

source -

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15154b.htm

[HerServant]

 

Yes and even Origen was not all that clear on it but he was definetly getting some knowledge from within.

 

But you know what I am saying I think, It may be there but you have to look for it. Some say it was taken out. I don't know but it is such a preliminary doctrine that it should just be understood.

 

Also if the soul was seen as existing in animals just like it says in Genesis first chapter then a case for animal rights would make sense to Christians much more than it presently does.

 

".. seek and ye shall find .." is a pretty serious statement of Jesus. We can't expect to look around for a few minutes then give up .. to quote the Vaisnavas, it may take "many many lifetimes"

 

Christians to a large extent are not really listening to their gurus and saddhus. I am talking about the true leaders. The saints (saddhus).

 

 

In 1990, His Holiness proclaimed that "the animals possess a soul and men must love and feel solidarity with our smaller brethren." He went on to say that all animals are "fruit of the creative action of the Holy Spirit and merit respect" and that they are "as near to God as men are."

 

source:

http://www.goveg.com/f-popejohnpaulii.asp

[Kulapavana]

 

There is a famous church in Istanbul, modern Turkey, one of the best known monuments of the world, called "Hagia Sophia", that is "the temple of of God's Holy Wisdom"; since years i have a vision: to have people chanting the Saawitrii mantra in perfect sanskrt pronunciation under the dome of "Hagia Sophia" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, taking turns. I do not say that Saawitrii is the only potent or the only correct method of worship; but it is the only one that can unite all people regardless of religion.

 

Some groups think that chanting of the Savitri mantra is the yuga-dharma for this age. Are you from one of these groups? I would like to hear more on their rationale for this practice, as traditionally this is a private nad silent mantra.

[sanatan]

 

....

 

What they fail to see is that we have already been judged and are now serving our sentence. Eternal damnation is actually a refference to samsara, the cycle of birth and death or as the Bible puts it "outer darkness". Or what we call bahiranga(if I remember right).

 

I have heard reincarnation called the missing link in Christianity.

 

That's the rationale I've used many times in discussions/debates with evangelical-type Christians, online and in person: the whole Adam and Eve thing is a symbolic story written to illustrate exactly what has already happened to all of us.

 

But none of them want to hear it that way; they consider Genesis "literal truth", and then ask "why has God deserted me (or us, mankind in general)" when something really horrible happens, like when a perfect little bundle of joy from heaven turns out to be a drug addict or gets killed in a car wreck at age 16.

 

A couple of times, close Christians have rhetorically asked me that question after these things happened to their children or children of friends/relatives, and then flat-out refused to listen to the Vedic version when I brought it up in a sincere effort to comfort them...it was taboo to them, they got a deer-in-the headlights look and changed the subject.

 

I've now altogether given up dialogue attempts with evangelical born-again types, online or in person.

[theist]

 

I've now altogether given up dialogue attempts with evangelical born-again types, online or in person.

 

I know the feeling. Most are brainwashed into thinking the devil is trying to trick them into believing in reincarnation. Best to say something positive about God or Jesus and leave them be.

 

If devotees could get beyond their sectarian hangups and accept the Lord Jesus Christ as taught by Srila Prabhupada then people who are attracted to Lord Jesus would have another point of view to hear.

 

I see Lord Jesus as a Krsna conscious avatar and so I have no problem with associating his name with the transcendental truths taught in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

These hard core evangelicals will never accept perhaps but then I don't accept them as representatives of Jesus anyway.

 

Jesus Loves Krsna and Krsna loves Jesus.

[HerServant]

 

That's the rationale I've used many times in discussions/debates with evangelical-type Christians, online and in person: the whole Adam and Eve thing is a symbolic story written to illustrate exactly what has already happened to all of us.

 

But none of them want to hear it that way; they consider Genesis "literal truth", and then ask "why has God deserted me (or us, mankind in general)" when something really horrible happens, like when a perfect little bundle of joy from heaven turns out to be a drug addict or gets killed in a car wreck at age 16.

 

A couple of times, close Christians have rhetorically asked me that question after these things happened to their children or children of friends/relatives, and then flat-out refused to listen to the Vedic version when I brought it up in a sincere effort to comfort them...it was taboo to them, they got a deer-in-the headlights look and changed the subject.

 

I've now altogether given up dialogue attempts with evangelical born-again types, online or in person.

 

Imagine telling a fundie that Genesis is Vedic text and has to be understood from that perspective. Like HV (Eve) is jiva and Adam (Atman)

 

The word for God's revealed knowledge in the Hebrew is Yeda Yada and in the Greek is Oida. Yeda is Veda . The dieity names Yahu and Yeshi and Yishma in Hebrew are Vasu and Vishnu in Sanskrit. In the Christian New Testament Eli-Yahu's (Hari-Vasu) knowledge is again called Oida or Eido ( the English word 'idea' is from Oida or Eido) hundreds of times. Together the yd , Oida word is used for knowledge over 900 times in the Hebrew and Greek Bible.

 

Sanskrit-related Greek Biblical word for knowledge is related to the root of the word 'knowledge' itself. ‘Know’ is related the Greek ‘Gnosis’ and the Sanskrit ‘jnan’. The ancient root jn, gn, kn had several meanings. Prominently, two meanings were associated with knowing and beginning.

 

Ganesha is Gnosis. When they open the scriptures, students and masters alike pray to Ganesha before beginning their labors. As Gan-eshvara, he is gen, jnan, Gnosis, know-ing personified, the very being and spirit of knowledge or jnan.

[mahak]

When we speak here, we are speaking to all parties. Sectarianism is not favoring a particular mode of worship, sectarianism is offending others because they fail to adopt another's practice.

 

While some who pretend to worship Lord Siva are just as bad as others who deny that methoids other than their own may be of equal and even greater validity, the worship of Lord Siva is authentic in our line of Vaisnavism. There are thousaqnds of bonafide acaryas who are worshippable, but Srila Prabhupada teaches that there are twelve exemplary acaryas who are considered authorities on devotional service. Lord Siva is one of those personalities, and I never disregard any worshipper of Sri Nataraja.

 

The brother speaks of unity, and the mantra he speaks of invokes unity. Devotees seek impediment removal to progress in their devotional service. Just as Prabhupada makes distinction in mere speculation and speculative dialogue which brings out devotional service as two separate items, one to be avoided and one to be freely practiced, similarly, worship of demigods is also that way. If we worship Lord Siva for selfish gain, like many great demons we have heard about have done, this may be spiritually destructive, such as adopting Sankara philosophy. However, we fall is obiesance to Sankara because he sings, "Bhaja Govinda", and we accept these slokas full-heartedly, even though composed by the founder of the mayavadi school. Devotees worship Lord Siva and sing his praises as mahabhagavata authority of how to place ones full attention on the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Hae Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

Glad you be postin again. mahak

[sanatan]

 

I know the feeling. Most are brainwashed ....

 

Jesus Loves Krsna and Krsna loves Jesus.

 

Yeh, satan gets conveniently blamed for just about everything.

 

I gave up on "interfaith" dialogue because their attitude makes me frustrated and angry and causes me to hate them.

 

I have known some fundy devotees as well, don't tend to associate with them...tend to get just as burned up when they put down Jesus Christ or minimize him.

 

Srila Prabhupada did comment extensively on Christ and the recent relevant discussion and posts here have been mostly nice and informative...SP was in no way pandering to predominant western beliefs, as one of his "disciples" here has claimed.

 

My personal experience is that I didn't understand the Bible until I had read Srila Prabhupada's basic works and assimilated the philosophy.

 

 

 

Imagine telling a fundie that Genesis is Vedic text and has to be understood from that perspective. Like HV (Eve) is jiva and Adam (Atman)...

Gnosis, know-ing personified, the very being and spirit of knowledge or jnan.

 

I can imagine blank stares only. Very good lesson in comparative linguistics, HS, thank you.

[gHari]

A friend here always used to remind us to 'take the essence'.

 

When we boil it down we end up preaching like Jesus. These poor creatures don't have a lot of time to spare for religion. Simple gets through.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharja was an expert at boiling it down to the essence - jargon gone, details gone, just the essential Truth. At times, he sounds more like Jesus than Jesus.

 

Perhaps Jesus and his disciples left us with no theology, ontology, philosophy, theology or religion just so we wouldn't get confused, just to highlight the essence.

 

No one can argue with the essence. Reenforce the essence and they will benefit from your encounter.

[theist]

 

A friend here always used to remind us to 'take the essence'.

 

When we boil it down we end up preaching like Jesus. These poor creatures don't have a lot of time to spare for religion. Simple gets through.

 

Srila Sridhara Maharja was an expert at boiling it down to the essence - jargon gone, details gone, just the essential Truth. At times, he sounds more like Jesus than Jesus.

 

Perhaps Jesus and his disciples left us with no theology, ontology, philosophy, theology or religion just so we wouldn't get confused, just to highlight the essence.

 

No one can argue with the essence. Reenforce the essence and they will benefit from your encounter.

 

Rightly said gHari. Thanks for the reminder.

 

The greatest commandment is to love God with our entire being and other souls as ourselves, to forgive to the last drop of our blood, to pray for those that despite use us, to renounce this world of exploitation in favor of the land of dedication.

 

Really the words and example of Jesus Himself are enough.

[krishnadasa]

 

"I am a vengeful God". Yet Krsna tells arjuna to kill them all, even King Bhisma, Dronacarya, and Krpacarya. All this burnin and lootin is what humans understand, thus religions have plenty of that blood and guts stuff to hold our attention.

 

Ya see, god is beyond good and evil, and the sectarianists will never understand, because they try to clean it up with their own bogus morality. But babies die everyday, and Krsna, who is the cause of all causes, is the perpetrater. Innocent babies die bullet ridden in their mothers' arms. Sorry, but this is not a bible thing. Krsna shows arjuna how he annihillates everything.

 

Tofu is trying to mentally conjure up an image of Vishnu that is user friendly, but visnu is part of a three-fold god system, and he just acts as maintainer between the creator Brahma and the annihillator Siva, and even though he is the ultimate source of both brahma and siva, he does NOT intervene in their operations in the mahat tattwa.

 

Thing is, we are not blood and guts at all, death is not a part of life, but an illusion brought about by our association with TIME. Transcendence is what is taught by those who have our best interests at heart.

 

Lord Jesus Christ is Brahma, the creator and only begotton son (born directly from the body of Visnu), not Visnu, the maintainer. This is who Jesus says is His Father. Lord Jesus returns as Siva, to annihillate. In both cases, he is also MAINTAINED by Visnu, He who has sent Him.

 

haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

 

V. Good post, thanks,

 

Hari bol

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I don't want to increase the controversy or argument here, but I am curious what everyone's opinion is about Muhammad:

 

 

Some of Srila Prabhupada's statement:

 

"All the great acaryas, like Ramanuja, Madhva, Caitanya, Sarasvati Thakura or even, in other countries, Muhammad, Christ and others, have all extensively glorified the Lord by chanting always and in every place."

 

"Jesus Christ and Muhammad, two powerful devotees of the Lord, have done tremendous service on behalf of the Lord on the surface of the globe."

 

 

Do you accept this as truth or a preaching strategy?

[Kulapavana]

 

I don't want to increase the controversy or argument here, but I am curious what everyone's opinion is about Muhammad:....

Do you accept this as truth or a preaching strategy?

 

I think on some level Srila Prabhupada really appreciated what Christians and Muslims accomplished in the sense of spreading their religions world-wide, and he credits their acharyas for that service. He hardly ever comments on the dark side of these traditions, or their very mixed historical legacy.

 

At the same time one can also say that he is far more accomodating (willing to overlook the differences and shortcomings) in the acceptance of Christianity and Islam then he has ever shown to the Vaishnava traditions seen as apasampradayas.

 

I see it simply as his unique perspective on things.

[Guruvani]

 

I don't want to increase the controversy or argument here, but I am curious what everyone's opinion is about Muhammad:

 

 

 

Do you accept this as truth or a preaching strategy?

I personally pass it off as preaching strategy.

As far as the Jesus thing goes, he actually had a very miniscule impact in his days.

Christianity has become very pervasive not so much due to Jesus but to propaganda of Roman kings and many other political leaders and religious thinkers.

The pervasiveness of Christianity is not the personal accomplishment of Jesus as much as it is the result of the political power of Rome.

 

We can see the "good" in what Mohammad has done by observing the senseless murder and suicide that is going on in the world in his name.

 

Anybody that reads the Quran can easily see that it is just an Arab response to the Judeo-Christian dominance in the middle-east.

 

Srila Prabhupada is obviously one of the greatest transcendental tricksters of all time.

His preaching tactics were adjusted to time, place and circumstance.

 

As time and circumstance changes around us, we have to realize that some things Srila Prabhupada said were just preaching devices and not some supreme absolute rewriting of the Gaudiya siddhanta.

[gHari]

 

I don't want to increase the controversy or argument here, but I am curious what everyone's opinion is about Muhammad:

 

Do you accept this as truth or a preaching strategy?

I think it is a 'time and circumstance' thing. What can one say to such people, to people who have already abandoned two other religions promulgated by Moses and Christ, to a war-ravaged people for whom the sword has dictated truth for millenia?

 

It is written that God comes to all species - even the tigers will have their perfect dharma, their perfect guru.