Is Jesus also Vishnu?

[Guruvani]

If Jesus was actually a shaktyavesha avatar, then why did Srila Saraswati Thakur and Srila Prabhupada say that a simple devotee like Vasudeva Datta was millions of times greater than Jesus?

 

How can a simple Vaishnava be millions of times greater than a shaktyavesha avatar?

 

Obviously, Srila Prabhupada told some tales about Jesus in consideration of time and circumstance, because in his books he makes it clear that Jesus was a small-timer even compared to a simple Vaishnava like Vasudeva Datta.

 

If Vasudeva Datta is millions of times greater than Jesus, then Jesus must be a small-timer in the realm of religious personalities.

[Guruvani]

Prabhupada writes, "Regarding your questions on Christianity, we are not very much keen to engage them in argument because for the most part they are sentimentalists and have no philosophy, therefore they become fanatics or dogmatists, and this type of person we cannot change. (Letter to Dasarha 1977 March 4 Bombay)

[theist]

 

Prabhu ... I guess the disagreement is because you consider Jiva to be one and different from Visnu.

 

Yes I do.

 

 

I consider Jiva as eternal servant, never one (albeit simultaneously different). I have read where Srila Prabhupada says we are 'part and parcel of God' but can you provide references where he says we are simultaneously God?

 

What does the word simultaneous mean to you? If we are just different from Krsna there would be no need to qualify that difference with the word simulataneous. Simultaneous means the other (oneness) is also true. Both simultaneously. They don't cancel each other out.

 

Yes Jesus is eternal servant, part of Krsna. What does 'part' mean to you? Is there any part of your being that is not made of Krsna?

 

Sun and sunlight. Krsna is the Sun and we are the photons.

[theist]

 

*Prabhupada:[...]So saktyavesha avatara is not vishnu-tattva. He is jiva-tattva. So the Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha, they come within the jiva-tattva especial power.

Bhagavata: They are saktyavesha avataras.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Acyutananda: So Nara-narayana Rishi is which?

Prabhupada: Nara-narayana Rishi was a shaktyavesha avatara. conv. 1974

 

edit *Left out at first by mistake.

[HerServant]

 

So saktyavesha avatara is not vishnu-tattva. He is jiva-tattva. So the Lord Jesus Christ or Lord Buddha, they come within the jiva-tattva especial power.

Bhagavata: They are saktyavesha avataras.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Acyutananda: So Nara-narayana Rishi is which?

Prabhupada: Nara-narayana Rishi was a shaktyavesha avatara. conv. 1974

 

 

Now we are getting somewhere!

 

SB 12.8.31: The mighty King Indra was most astonished when he heard of the mystic prowess of the exalted sage Markandeya and saw how Cupid and his associates had become powerless in his presence.

 

SB 12.8.32: Desiring to bestow His mercy upon the saintly Markandeya, who had perfectly fixed his mind in self-realization through penance, Vedic study and observance of regulative principles, the Supreme Personality of Godhead personally appeared before the sage in the forms of Nara and Narayana.

 

SB 12.8.33-34: One of Them was of a whitish complexion, the other blackish, and They both had four arms. Their eyes resembled the petals of blooming lotuses, and They wore garments of black deerskin and bark, along with the three-stranded sacred thread. In Their hands, which were most purifying, They carried the mendicant's waterpot, straight bamboo staff and lotus-seed prayer beads, as well as the all-purifying Vedas in the symbolic form of bundles of darbha grass. Their bearing was tall and Their yellow effulgence the color of radiant lightning. Appearing as austerity personified, They were being worshiped by the foremost demigods.

 

SB 12.8.35: These two sages, Nara and Narayana, were the direct personal forms of the Supreme Lord. When Markandeya Rishi saw Them, he immediately stood up and then with great respect offered Them obeisances by falling down flat on the ground like a stick.

 

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya.

 

I bow down to the Father and to the Son, the perfect son.

 

HS and yours.

[ksbh]

 

 

Los Angeles 14 November, 1968

 

 

My Dear Aniruddha,

 

 

 

 

so, Srila Prabhupada is comparing Lord Jesus and Lord Buddha in the same class.

We all know that Buddha preached atheism and rejected the Vedas.

Jesus was an iconoclast who despised deity worship.

 

The Vaishnavas have nothing to do with either of them.

[ksbh]

Thank you prabhu! Srila prabhupada makes it as clear as it can get and I don't see any ambiguity. Please see in bold letters below. It's exactly what I said a few posts back. That perhaps Srila Prabhupada was referring to Jesus Christ as saktyavesa avatara and saktyavesa avatara is not Visnu.

 

But to those who wish to continue believing Jesus is Visnu, be my guest. We live in a free world and I don't see any point in loading up on someone with a different belief.

 

 

 

"Los Angeles 14 November, 1968

 

My Dear Aniruddha,

 

Yes, Lord Jesus was jivatattva. He is not Visnu tattva. When a jiva tattva becomes specifically empowered by the Lord, he is called saktyavesa avatara. Lord Buddha and Lord Jesus Christ were in this group of saktyavesa avatara.. But they were not in conditioned state when they appeared; they came to teach here."

 

 

so, Srila Prabhupada is comparing Lord Jesus and Lord Buddha in the same class.

We all know that Buddha preached atheism and rejected the Vedas.

Jesus was an iconoclast who despised deity worship.

 

The Vaishnavas have nothing to do with either of them.

 

P.S: Sorry for the repeat post. Previous post was missing Srila Prabhupada's comments.

[Guruvani]

So, even if we accept that Jesus was a shaktyavesha avatar, Srila Prabhupada said that we don't have to accept his philosophy.

 

OK, Jesus was shaktyavesha......... now what?

 

Where are the pages and chapters of Jesus siksha that Srila Prabhupada repeated?

 

The only thing I have ever seen Srila Prabhupada repeat in terms of the teachings of Jesus is "thou shalt not kill".

 

So, that is about it.

Jesus was shaktyavesha.

"thou shalt not kill"

 

now, move on to the Golden Avatar who brought the fullest and complete conception of Godhead and service to God.

 

Srila Prabhupada did not want devotees studing the Bible or getting all sidetracked with Jesus.

 

There is no reason to make a big uproar about Jesus being shaktyavesha.

His teachings aren't included in the Gaudiya canon.

Jesus is not in the Gaudiya parampara.

 

Devotees really have no business getting all sentimental about Jesus.

Leave that to the Christians.

 

Devotees should follow Mahaprabhu.

Mahaprabhu never mentioned Jesus.

 

So, we shouldn't be concerned with Jesus.

 

Before Bhaktivinode Thakur, I don't know of any Gaudiya acharya that even mentioned the name of Jesus.

He was certainly not a topic amongst the followers of Mahaprabhu.

 

Before the British conquered India Jesus was a nobody in India.

[mahak]

Hare Krsna. I guess the title of this topic is the main problem. Someone with the faith of kanistha adhikari tries to artificially make a Goid out of a great devotee by asking such a ludicrous question deserves what follows.

 

There are many of us who can answer this question sufficiently, and we have. The answer is NO. Lord Jesus Christ is the one who gives us the answer. He completely differentiates between himself and His Father. Anyone who calls jesus christ the supreme lord is teaching against the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore, anti-christian. Unfortunately, the vast majority of religious sects calling themselves christian have also adopted this false doctrine that they cannot adequately defend for a moment. Their bogus religion is one of constant competition between jesus and the devil for our saouls, nullifying any theologic premise, that the SUPREME Lord has no competitor, and if such a person is SUPREME, and truely wants our soul, then satan is BEGONED, end of war. Christianity has lost validity because they call god less than supreme, always under satanic attack. Poor thing.

 

Because christians have no theology, they cannot adequately defend their so-called guru (who has rejected them, by the way, for not doing the will of His Father who has sent him). They allow folks who have no knowledge all the ammunition needed to discredit lord Jesus Christ simply by insisting that He is Supreme, when he clearly teaches that another PERSON is such a being. The Rastafarian Shaman (Jahmon) Peter Tosh sings with Bob Marley, "Im sick and tired of your jesus kissing game, tring to get to heaven in Jesus' name. You dont know that to understand, that MIGHTY GOD is a living man, you can fool some people sometime, but you cant fool all the peoiple all the time, now you see the light, stand up for your rights."

 

Again, it falls upon the christian that folks freely make offense to the Lord Jesus Christ. All the reactions that befall those who dont know Lord Jesus status as vaisnava, servant, guru, SON of the Supreme Lord and portary him as ordinary ( a great offense, BTW) is actually the great offense of those who have failed to present him AS HE IS.

 

Srila Prabhupada has done this nicely. He has portrayed Lord Jesus Christ AS HE IS, the humble servant of the Supreme Father (A feature of Lord Visnu, Lord Narayana, and Lord Dwarakadisha as well). He has made distinction, and answered this question, no Lord jesyus and Lord Visnu arew different. Their purpose is the same, but their positions are unique, and their relationship is reciprocal, meaning Jesaus accepts Visnu as Father, and Visnu accepts Jesus as son. There is no need for the less intelligent to try to discredit Lord Jesus who is faultless just because those who follow him are also less intelligent. This is kanistha adhikari business, discrediting the faultless with the sole purpose of feeling better about themselves and their choices of whom to place their faithless alliegance upon.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

:rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:

[ksbh]

Superb post, Mahak prabhu. Was a pleasure reading.

 

 

Hare Krsna. I guess the title of this topic is the main problem. Someone with the faith of kanistha adhikari tries to artificially make a Goid out of a great devotee by asking such a ludicrous question deserves what follows.

 

There are many of us who can answer this question sufficiently, and we have. The answer is NO. Lord Jesus Christ is the one who gives us the answer. He completely differentiates between himself and His Father. Anyone who calls jesus christ the supreme lord is teaching against the teachings of Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore, anti-christian. Unfortunately, the vast majority of religious sects calling themselves christian have also adopted this false doctrine that they cannot adequately defend for a moment. Their bogus religion is one of constant competition between jesus and the devil for our saouls, nullifying any theologic premise, that the SUPREME Lord has no competitor, and if such a person is SUPREME, and truely wants our soul, then satan is BEGONED, end of war. Christianity has lost validity because they call god less than supreme, always under satanic attack. Poor thing.

 

Because christians have no theology, they cannot adequately defend their so-called guru (who has rejected them, by the way, for not doing the will of His Father who has sent him). They allow folks who have no knowledge all the ammunition needed to discredit lord Jesus Christ simply by insisting that He is Supreme, when he clearly teaches that another PERSON is such a being. The Rastafarian Shaman (Jahmon) Peter Tosh sings with Bob Marley, "Im sick and tired of your jesus kissing game, tring to get to heaven in Jesus' name. You dont know that to understand, that MIGHTY GOD is a living man, you can fool some people sometime, but you cant fool all the peoiple all the time, now you see the light, stand up for your rights."

 

Again, it falls upon the christian that folks freely make offense to the Lord Jesus Christ. All the reactions that befall those who dont know Lord Jesus status as vaisnava, servant, guru, SON of the Supreme Lord and portary him as ordinary ( a great offense, BTW) is actually the great offense of those who have failed to present him AS HE IS.

 

Srila Prabhupada has done this nicely. He has portrayed Lord Jesus Christ AS HE IS, the humble servant of the Supreme Father (A feature of Lord Visnu, Lord Narayana, and Lord Dwarakadisha as well). He has made distinction, and answered this question, no Lord jesyus and Lord Visnu arew different. Their purpose is the same, but their positions are unique, and their relationship is reciprocal, meaning Jesaus accepts Visnu as Father, and Visnu accepts Jesus as son. There is no need for the less intelligent to try to discredit Lord Jesus who is faultless just because those who follow him are also less intelligent. This is kanistha adhikari business, discrediting the faultless with the sole purpose of feeling better about themselves and their choices of whom to place their faithless alliegance upon.

 

Haribol, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

Well Srila Prabhupada is not one of those and he called Jesus Christ an incarnation of Krsna. Again Shaktyavesa avatar is one of Krsna's incarnations. Jiva tattva yes. Krsna incarnation yes.

 

One and different remember.

[theist]

The participants of this thread are eagerly invitied to leave their thoughts on the acintya bhedabheda thread.

[Guruvani]

I see a difference in the way Srila Prabhupada preached to Christians and the way the taught his disciples.

In preaching to a Christian person Srila Prabhupada might say "Christ is incarnation of Krishna" and then in letters and instructions to his disciples he says "Jesus was a jiva".

 

So, it might be impossible for some people to accept that Srila Prabhupada stretched the truth about Jesus when preaching to Christians.

 

But, in Srila Prabhupada's more intimate instructions in his books and his letters to his disciples Jesus doesn't enjoy as much acclaim as he might get when Srila Prabhupada is trying to convert a Christian to Krishna consciousness.

 

Ultimately, Srila Prabhupada did not accept the philosophy of Jesus that "I am the way, the truth and the light and NO man comes to God but through me".

 

The Yogis and Swamis in India today that are into Jesus claim that Jesus came in a line of Hebrew Siva worshipers and that the God Jesus spoke of was Siva.

 

Most all the gurus and yogis in India consider Jesus a jnani.

The so-called history of Jesus in India places him as a student of Shaivism.

[dattaswami]

 

Will someone explain that if God is one then why do we have different 'Almighties' for different religions.

 

For example, if Hindus believe God is one then why don't we believe that, for example, Jesus is one of our god and talked about in Vedas as (perhaps) one of the incarnations of Vishnus?

 

God (Holy Spirit) and Human Incarnation

 

STATEMENT: - MATHEW <st1:time minute="40" hour="10" w:st="on">10: 40</st1:time>

Lord Jesus was the human incarnation of the Holy Spirit. The human body of Holy Jesus is like the metallic wire, which was all over, pervaded by the Holy Spirit. Veda says ‘Antarbahischa’ which means that the Holy Spirit pervades all over the body of Human Incarnation. Wherever you touch the wire the electric shock is given. Similarly the entire human body of Holy Jesus is holy. The holiness is the nature of Holy Spirit just like the shock is the property of electricity.

As the electricity cannot be separated from the wire, the Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the Holy Jesus. So here the Holy Spirit is the Holy Jesus. Holy Jesus refers this Holy Spirit as His Father. He tells that He was sent by His father as a messenger. Though He and His father are one and the same, He speaks like this for which there is a practical reason i.e., every human being repels with another human being. A man cannot accept another man as God due to Jealousy and Egoism. Bhagavatgita says, “A man will insult Me when I come here in human form (Avajananti mam….)”. For this purpose Holy Jesus wants Himself to be called only as the messenger of the Holy Spirit by the disciples whenever He is introduced to the public. If He tells the truth the egoistic public will not hear even what He preaches and will reject Him. Therefore He is telling His disciples to introduce Him as a messenger only. Ofcourse, the disciples are really the messengers of Holy Jesus.

Holy Spirit has taken over the human body of Holy Jesus and pervaded all over the body to preach the divine knowledge to this world. The same Holy Spirit is sending the disciples for the propagation of the Divine knowledge. Both the body of Holy Jesus and the disciples are instruments of the Holy Spirit chosen for different purposes. The Holy Spirit is preaching through the body of Holy Jesus and is propagating the divine knowledge through disciples. Therefore if you respect the disciple you are respecting the Holy Spirit indirectly. Though both the instruments exist like this, the Holy Spirit is present in Jesus and is not present in the disciples.

Due to this difference the disciple is an indirect instrument and the direct instrument is Holy Jesus. The disciple propagates the divine knowledge after hearing from the Holy Jesus. Therefore when such disciple is respected, Holy Jesus is respected first and then the Holy Spirit. But among the disciples there may be some person who cannot repeat what Holy Jesus exactly preached. In such a case the Holy Spirit will take over the body of that disciple and preaches (Mathew <st1:time minute="20" hour="10" w:st="on">10: 20</st1:time>). Such a disciple differs from Holy Jesus because the Holy Spirit resides in that disciple for some time only where as the Holy Spirit resides in Jesus all the time.

Holy Jesus is telling that He is the messenger of the Holy Spirit and He is also telling that the disciple is His messenger. He is giving the same status to Himself and the disciple by telling like this. The reason is that some disciple may become jealous in future if He says that He Himself is the Holy Spirit where as the disciple is His messenger only. The difference in the status may bring jealousy. Therefore He is maintaining the equal status so that no devotee becomes jealous of Jesus in the future. Due to jealousy the disciple may slip from Holy Jesus.

When He says that He is only the messenger, this shows the humble and submissiveness of Holy Jesus. He wants His disciples to be humble and submissive to the Holy Spirit through out their lives. For this purpose He sets Himself as an ideal. The Holy Spirit present in the human body of Holy Jesus is the essence of true and infinite knowledge as Veda says “Satyam Jnanam Anantam Brahma….” Humbleness and submissiveness are the fruits of the Divine Knowledge. Therefore the humbleness and submissiveness are the qualities of the Holy Spirit itself. This means whatever Holy Jesus speaks is the statement of the Holy Spirit only.

[Guruvani]

As far as the actual Gaudiya teachings on shaktyavesha avatars, Jesus Christ is not mentioned in the books when the subject of shaktyavesha avatar is explained.

So, it shows that, in preaching to Christians, Srila Prabhupada might have given Jesus more emphasis than he gives in his books.

In the two references below which deal with the subject of shaktyavesha avatars, Jesus did not make the cut.

It should also be noted that Jesus Christ would fit into the classification of a indirect shaktyavesha avatar if in fact he actually existed.

 

Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 8

"The Lord then pointed out that there is no limit to the saktyavesa-avataras and that they cannot be counted. However, some can be mentioned as examples. The saktyavesa incarnations are of two kinds--direct and indirect. When the Lord Himself comes, He is called saksat, or a direct saktyavesa-avatara, and when He empowers some living entity to represent Him that living entity is called an indirect or avesa incarnation. Examples of indirect avataras are the four Kumaras, Narada, Prthu and Parasurama. These are actually living entities, but there is specific power given to them by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When a specific opulence of the Supreme Lord is invested in specific entities, they are called avesa-avataras. The four Kumaras specifically represent the Supreme Lord's opulence of knowledge. Narada represents the devotional service of the Supreme Lord. Devotional service is also represented by Lord Caitanya, who is considered to be the full representation of devotional service. In Brahma the opulence of creative power is invested, and in King Prthu the power for maintaining the living entities is invested. Similarly, in Parasurama the power for killing evil elements is invested. As far as vibhati, or the special favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is concerned, it is described in the Tenth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita that a living entity who appears to be especially powerful or beautiful should be known to be especially favored by the Supreme Lord. Examples of direct or saksad-avataras are the Sesa incarnation and the Ananta incarnation. In Ananta the power for sustaining all planets is invested, and in the Sesa incarnation the power for serving the Supreme Lord is invested."

Caitanya-caritamrta, Madyam lila 20:367-373

"There are unlimited saktyavesa-avataras of Lord Krsna. Let Me describe the chief among them. Empowered incarnations are of two types--primary and secondary. The primary one is directly empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead and is called an incarnation. The secondary one is indirectly empowered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead and is called vibhuti. Some saktyavesa-avataras are the four Kumaras, Narada, Maharaja Prthu and Parasurama. When a living being is empowered to act as Lord Brahma, he is also considered a saktyavesa-avatara. Lord Sesa in the spiritual world of Vaikuntha and, in the material world, Lord Ananta, who carries innumerable planets on His hood, are two primary empowered incarnations. There is no need to count the others, for they are unlimited. The power of knowledge was invested in the four Kumaras, and the power of devotional service was invested in Narada. The power of creation was invested in Lord Brahma, and the power to carry innumerable planets was invested in Lord Ananta. The Supreme Personality of Godhead invested the power of personal service to Lord Sesa, and He invested the power to rule the earth in King Prthu. Lord Parasurama received the power to kill rogues and miscreants. Whenever the Lord is present in someone by portions of His various potencies, the living entity representing the Lord is called saktyavesa-avatara--that is, an incarnation invested with special power."

 

So, the point is that Jesus, if in fact he was a shaktyavesha avatar, was not an incarnation of Krishna but rather a jiva soul that was given a fraction of the opulence of Krishna and invested with some particular power.

As far as Jesus being a direct incarntion of Vishnu-tattva, Srila Prabhupada made it clear than Jesus was NOT Vishnu tattva.

[Guruvani]

So, other than Srila Prabhupada's opinion that he gave as a Vaishnava preaching in a Christian society, there really is no shastric evidence that Jesus Christ was a shaktyavesha avatar.

Jesus Christ is not mentioned in the shastra as a shaktyavesha avatar except in the very generous opinion of Srila Prabhupada.

 

It was Srila Prabhupada's opinion.

It cannot be verified by shastra.

 

It appears that Srila Prabhupada was the first acharya to award Jesus the status of shaktyavesha avatar.

 

Dhanvantari was also a shaktyavesha avatar.

He gave medical science.

 

So, shaktyavesha avatar can also be something other than religious or spiritual power.

 

Outside the followers of Srila Prabhupada, there are many Gaudiyas who do not consider Jesus as a shaktyavesha avatar.

 

Since it was just the opinion of Srila Prabhupada that cannot be verified by shastra it is up to the individual as to how much credibility he wants to put on the claim of Jesus being shaktyavesha avatar.

 

I personally consider it as a preaching device that Srila Prabhupada manufactured in the face of his efforts to preach in the Christian dominated western world.

 

I personally do not accept it as a FACT but as a preaching tactic that Srila Prabhupada employed in his attempts to convert Christians to Krishna consciousness.

[shrikrishna]

Hi,

 

this is a very good topic to discuss but i have some of my exp of my life i had never came across to any kind of Christian who worship hindu dieties or give respect to hindu gods they always says that Jesus is complete & they try to prove that hindu scriptures are not correct & u may b aware that there are several cases v have seen where Christians try to Convert people from other religion into Christianity I m talking mainly of Indian Christians.

[cbrahma]

There are irreconcilable differences between Hinduism and Christianity.

Christian theologians are as intolerant of 'blending' them as are some Vaisnavas who call Christianized Hindus Hare Christians.

Technically it's called syncretism. The differences are differences of theology (scripture (sruti) interpreted in human concepts (smriti)) and religious practice (the pieties and rituals surrounding worship).

But then again there are intra-Hindu and intra-Christian differences which are almost as radical.

For instance there is a sect of Hindus that don't accept Krsna as the supreme person. There are also Hindus who consider Jesus to be an avatar... There are sects who believe Brahman to be the ultimate truth.

There are some Christians, like Thomas Merton, who have attempted reconciliation with Eastern religions.

 

Vedanta however is supposed to be inclusive of all legitimate paths of connecting with God (religion from <TT minmax_bound="true">religāre</TT>, to tie fast or yoga from Sanskrit <TT minmax_bound="true">yogaḥ</TT>, union, joining).

The wisest acaryas are inclusive and understand the absolute truth behind all religions. That is they cease to concern themselves with sectarian differences and strictly speaking have abandoned 'all varieties of religion'.

It is for this reason, that as soon as one yields to dogmatic condemnation of this religion or that , provided it is seeking God and his Love, one falls from the truly spiritual path.

I must admit, I find the squabbles within religions as amusing as those between religions.

[Bishadi]

 

Will someone explain that if God is one then why do we have different 'Almighties' for different religions.

 

For example, if Hindus believe God is one then why don't we believe that, for example, Jesus is one of our god and talked about in Vedas as (perhaps) one of the incarnations of Vishnus?

 

Each contributer to existence is a prophet per se.

 

Whether confucius, darwin, JC, mohammed and even you.... a person of compassion willing to give of themselves for others.

 

 

Men create Gods, yet unknowingly each who comprehend 'creation' in truth are the god of that creation; Good, will continue... Bad, will fail to extinction.

 

Such that true knowledge will live forever; other will fail, everytime!

 

It is why philosophy often exists much longer than belief grounded in faith, hope and miracles. Philosophies transcend based on the representation of universal compassion of observable truths; in contrast defining fact with faithful interpretation only have time to extinquish the ignorance.

[riih.qarojamahoamaan]

 

Hi,

 

this is a very good topic to discuss but i have some of my exp of my life i had never came across to any kind of Christian who worship hindu dieties or give respect to hindu gods they always says that Jesus is complete & they try to prove that hindu scriptures are not correct & u may b aware that there are several cases v have seen where Christians try to Convert people from other religion into Christianity I m talking mainly of Indian Christians.

Sorry, but i have to say it is not logical to rely on scriptures. Scriptures and teachings are good and reliable when they are proven by facts and by logic. Fanatic Christians reject Krsna, and fanatic Vaisnavas try to prove that Jesus was not God. I m not fanatic. How can i reject Krsna? i know that Krsna is love, and love is the cause of the universe and supreme power. Christians say that "God is Love"; then God is Krsna. Then, Jesus claims to b the supreme personality of Godhead, why should i reject it? I believe that Raama had to be punished for killing Raavana, so he was incarnated again and was crucified to pay for killing the raksasas, so all other people enemies of raaksasas do not have to pay. Raama acted as a man, so he had to pay for what he did. But in fact, Raama is the supreme personality too. Shrila Prabhupada says that Krsna incarnation is stronger than Raama incarnation. I believe this is true. Raama defeated the raaksasas, but Krsna defeated Lord Shiva himself, with all the "shankaraanucaraas". From experience i know that Krsna is stronger than all other incarnations, still other incarnations, as Narasinha, Raama, and Jesus, are Krsna too. Krsna is love, but Jesus is also a personification of love, who sacrificed himself to help people in the war against raaksasaas. Vaisnavas are Christians, so they must not try to convert Christians. Christians are Vaisnavaas, so they must not try to convert Vaisnavaas. Instead, they must be colaborate, even if they cannot aggree in everything. Not all Vaisnavaas agree in everything, there are many Vaisnava sects, e.g. the Swaaminaaraaya,naas, who differ in their idea about Krsna, but they are Vaisnavaas too, and their mantra, Swaaminaaraaya,na, is good. So Christians should be recognised as a Vaisnava sect, although they do not agree in everything. Our minds are deluded because we are in Kali yuga, so we cannot agree in everything, but all Vaisnava sects, who believe that God is love, including Christians, should ally. Otherwise, it is only fanaticism that works to empower Kali even more.

OM IIShA KR,S,NA!

[AncientMariner]

 

I hear quacking, but no longer have to read thru the nonsense proposed by the one who always gets so upset when devotees choose to discuss one of their own, Lord Jesus Christ. I imagine he is quacking again about how Srila Prabhupada is duplicitous and patronizing and pandering to the christian community. If he is, this is the greatest offense against Srila Prabhupada if one is a disciple of his, to minimize his teachings in such a puffed up manner. I actually turned this dude off because of such statements he always makes.

 

Unfortunately, I do read some of his garbage when another tries to answer him and quoting him. It doesnt do any good to quote him, because he argues with himself as well. But he talks about chasing away the good people who would otherwise be here. Why dont you go with them, these sectarian jihadist hindus that hate to hear the mere mention of Lord Jesus Christ. One spammer was already run off because of his rude comments under three names. Are these the spiritual people he is talking about?

 

The thing is, there is a hidden Lord Jesus Christ. He hides from even those who profess allegiance to what they imagine to be him. Lord Jesus Christ masde this exacting prediction "In the future, there will be those who heal the sick and baptize in my name, but I will say to them "I dont know you, get away from me, you have failed to honor the will of he who has sent me""

 

So, we have conversations about Lord Jesus Christ on the spiritual discussions section of audarya fellowship forum. If one scrolls down, one will find a hindu.org forum, a hare krsna.org section. And Lord Jesus makes his appearance there often as well. Why is that? Because Lord Jesus Christ has canvassed all to honor the will of his father who has sent him, and Lord Father Narayana has made Lord Jesus Christ so famous as a spiritual personality in history that he is discussed positively by everyone in the world.

 

Now there is a false jesus, the hero of the armageddonists engaged in genocide for 2000 years in his name. The cotton mathers of the world who burn innocent women for curing infants. The pat robertsons of the world recommending race extermination. The founders of manifest destiny programs to wipe out indigenous cultures using the weapon used to kill christ as their own swords. This is the jesus of fanaticism, and this jesus is also rejected by Lord Jesus Christ himself, in much the same manner that Srila Prabhupada rejects the vaisnava disguised kali cela.

 

But here, we have discussions of the real jesus chrisT. How is he real? Because we receive him from the lips of the devotee Srila Prabhupada, who tells us of his selfless service to his Father. Srila Prabhupada recognized the real Lord Jesus Christ because he has the vision to differentiate between demon and devotee. Those who always spout off about jesus not being up to par are not the authorities, because they have not passed the criteria of being beyond the kanistha adhikari state, meaning they quack because they have no ability to even see a vaisnava. These are the same who will accept white slavery adherants as their guru and come whining about it later when their guru splashes down in some prison somewhere or in some looney bin.

 

So, I accept the authority of Lord Jesus Christ because I am an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada never repeated the same old drivel of the cotton matherites, those who actually declared war on Srila Prabhupadas movement from the very start. Srila Prabhupada hears the real Lord Jesus Christ and works with him in canvassing all to honor the will of the Supreme Lord. They are not against each other, they work in unison.

 

I actually am more disgusted with the real whiner of these forums than the no-holds-barred folk(s) who were edited off yesterday. This offense of accusing my guru maharaja of pandering to the christian by saying nice things about jesus is so blatantly demoniac as well as false. Did Srila Prabhupada pander to the hippie movement? Did he pander to the recreational drug industry? The military industrial congressional complex? Did he pander to the zionists? The sex industry, hollywood, bollywood? Did he pander to the wave of gurus arriving in droves with rock stars as their advertizements?

 

No, Srila Prabhupada does not pander to anyone to gain material advantage or create duplicitous propaganda, He does not say Jesus this and Jesus that like the phony christian ministers who fail to do the will of the Father. My spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, calls him LORD JESUS CHRIST, and my spiritual master has his own trademark that I defy anyone to disprove, he says it AS IT IS.

 

I agree with one thing the dude says, get rid of the whiners.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

 

Went back and was reading this thread and I think this is probably the best post I have ever read on this forum.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Jesus's God rejoices your death

 

"And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it." (Deuteronomy 28:63)

 

Comment

 

If the religious mind believes that God represents a loving God, then one must wonder about God, as described in the Bible, who would rejoice to destroy some of his creations.

 

Should we hold honor to an insane God? The Bible assures us that God possess an evil spirit with hate, and full of wrath, and here he rejoices in destruction! God appears completely devoid of any wit or humor; a mental state that psychologists have observed in many schizophrenics.

 

 

Vishnu would not rejoice your death.....

 

I wish devotees would stop trying be christian Vaisnavas.....

You are so ridiculous. Jesus (the prophet of the New Testament) isn't Yahweh (the god of the Torah/Old Testament). You are quoting Yahweh, not Jesus. Jesus said that life was important and was worth more that just the daily necessities:

So, I tell you this. Do not be troubled about what you will eat or drink to keep alive. Do not be troubled about what you will wear on your body. Life itself is worth more than food, and the body is worth more than clothes.

--Matthew 6.25

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

God 'The Jealous'

 

"For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters so a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods." (Exodus 34:14-16)

 

Comment

 

Verse 14 (among other verses of the Bible) makes it abundantly clear that this God not only feels jealous but the Bible names him Jealous.

 

Why an all powerful God should feel jealous of his creations simply because they believed in other gods remains unclear. Could it mean that other gods exist as well as the Hebrew god or that the other gods do a better job?

 

 

Somehow I don't believe Visnhu is a jealous God...

This is a book from the Old Testament/Torah. You aren't quoting Jesus. Jesus taught that God is loving and merciful:

 

When Jesus saw the many people, he went up on a hill. He sat down and his disciples came to him.

He began to teach the people.

He said, `God makes happy those who know that they need him. The kingdom of heaven is for them.

`God makes happy those who are sad. They will have comfort.

`God makes happy those who quietly trust him and do not try to get their own way. The world will belong to them.

`God makes happy those who are hungry and thirsty for what is right and good. They will be filled.

`God makes happy those who are kind. He will be kind to them.

`God makes happy those who have clean hearts. They will see God.

`God makes happy those who make peace between people. They will be called God's sons.

`God makes happy those who have trouble for doing what is right. The kingdom of heaven is for them.

`God makes you happy when people say wrong things about you, when they trouble you, and when they say all kinds of lies about you. God makes you happy when it is for my sake.

Be happy and glad because God will be good to you in heaven. In the same way people troubled the prophets before your time.'

`You are like salt in the world. If salt has lost its taste, how can it be made salty again? Salt that has no taste is good for nothing. The only thing to do is to throw it out on the road.

`You are like light in the world. A city built on a hill cannot be hidden.

So also with a lamp. People do not light a lamp and put it under a basket. But they put it on the place for a lamp. Then all the people in the house can see its light.

So, let your light shine to all people. Then they will see the good things you do. And they will praise your Father in heaven.'

--Matthew 5.1-16

------Jesus' message was so much different from the Old Testament's, and the god he portrayed was so different from Yahweh, that many early Christians completely rejected the Old Testament and thought that Jesus was trying to fix the wrongs that had been done in the name of God in Israel.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

God Casts Stones

 

"And it came to pass, as they fled from before Israel, and were in the going down to Bethhoron, that the LORD cast down great stones from heaven upon them unto Azekah, and they died: they were more which died with hailstones than they whom the children of Israel slew with the sword." (Joshua 10:11)

 

Comment

 

Another typical slaughter described in the Bible. Here we have God, personally throwing great stones on the people for the sole purpose of killing them.

 

"The Christian religion has been and still is the principle enemy of moral progress in the world."

 

--Bertrand Russell

 

 

Where does it describe in our sastra that Vishnu throws stones?

Jesus said that stoning people was wrong and rebuked people for doing so:

Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, but early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.

 

“Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”

They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, <WOJ>“All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!”</WOJ> 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.

When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, <WOJ>“Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”</WOJ>

“No, Lord,” she said. And Jesus said, <WOJ>“Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”</WOJ>

--John 8.1-11

---------

Once again, Jesus isn't Yahweh. His god wasn't Yahweh. And he didn't follow the law of Yahweh. Maybe you should actually read the words of Jesus instead of just making baseless assumptions about his concept of God.