Question about the Gita

[Mikey]

I began reading the Bhagavad Gita last nite, and I didn't make it past the preface by Swami Prabhupada when he says:

"Krishna desceds to this planet once in a day of Brahma, or every 8,600,000,000 years."

I had to stop reading and use my basic knowledge of science to point out its widely agreed the earth is 4.5 million years. Now since this is obviously impossible, I began to liken it to the Christian bible, which more than once gives people ages of 100, 200, some even in the thousands. While studying the bible I read that in the time it was compiled, the oldest person in a village was regarded as the wisest, hence the high ages.

But I just coudln't get past such a higher number, so does anyone have an explenation for it?

[theist]

If all of eternity were to be counted how high would that number be?

 

We have to remember our tiny perspective on things. To a child ten minutes is a long time. To an older person ten years may just zoom by.

 

Anyway there is no rule that you have to believe or understand everything you read. I certainly don't either believe everything or understand everything. Just take what is essential for you and which you can comprehend at the moment.

[Mikey]

I understand what you are saying, the depth time can be a very difficult thing to explain. Is the term "brahma" used to explain the time of Krishna's apperances rather than a specific date?

[shvu]

 

I began reading the Bhagavad Gita last nite, and I didn't make it past the preface by Swami Prabhupada when he says:

"Krishna desceds to this planet once in a day of Brahma, or every 8,600,000,000 years."

I had to stop reading and use my basic knowledge of science...

 

Well, if you take this route, then every response you receive to your question will open up more questions.

 

Science and Religion do not go together - something that people of religion generally have trouble accepting much less admitting. My suggestion is stop mixing the two. Else, you will not get far with the Gita or any other religious book on the planet.

 

Cheers

[Mikey]

Well i am taking the route of proven logic, and whats wrong with having more questions, or should I blindly follow what I read. Science and religon SHOULD go together, humans have figured out some of the most baffling mysteries, are you saying I should disregard those facts?

[Guruvani]

 

Well i am taking the route of proven logic, and whats wrong with having more questions, or should I blindly follow what I read. Science and religon SHOULD go together, humans have figured out some of the most baffling mysteries, are you saying I should disregard those facts?

 

Mikey,

 

Don't read a couple of pages and then stop.

Read the whole book.

 

The book will give you more precise information than you can get in a public forum.

 

Give the book a chance.

[theist]

 

Well i am taking the route of proven logic, and whats wrong with having more questions, or should I blindly follow what I read. Science and religon SHOULD go together, humans have figured out some of the most baffling mysteries, are you saying I should disregard those facts?

 

Real science points to God and therefore they are perfectly compatable. No you should not blindly follow what you read. In the Gita Prabhupada writes "blind faith is condemned."

 

The word brahma is used in various ways. I am not knowledgable about word meanings. But Brahma generlly refers to Lord Brahma who is the demigod in charge of creating varieties in this material world.

[Guruvani]

 

I had to stop reading and use my basic knowledge of science to point out its widely agreed the earth is 4.5 million years.

 

You better go back to science class Mikey, because scientists date the Earth to more than 4.3 BILLION years - not 4.3 million years.

 

 

The oldest known rocks on earth have been dated radiometrically at 3.96 billion years, and the oldest individual crystals at 4.3 billion years. Scientists believe that the earth is older than this, but that more ancient rocks did not survive the molten conditions that prevailed after the planet's birth. The oldest moon rocks have been dated at about 4.5 billion years, and the oldest meteorites at 4.5 to 4.6 billion years.

 

 

[Mikey]

mmm simple typo, i googled it and got billion orginally

[shvu]

 

Well i am taking the route of proven logic, and whats wrong with having more questions, or should I blindly follow what I read. Science and religon SHOULD go together, humans have figured out some of the most baffling mysteries, are you saying I should disregard those facts?

 

Not to belabor this point, but blind faith is not required in science. On the other hand, religion is all about faith. There is no evidence that the good Lord descended on rare occasions in human form to help a few select fellow humans in North India, but a religious person believes it anyway. In short, the religious person is not looking for evidence and the science geek is not into faith.

 

In your situation, you need to know where to draw the line. A description of heaven in a religious book is acceptable, but an account on the different kinds of soil is of no value if it contradicts established facts. Science has no business being in a religous book, in the first place. If you take this approach it will be easier for you to make progress with the book and not get bogged down with inconsistencies.

 

Cheers

[Mikey]

Thank you shvu, the analogy of the soil made alot of sense to me, i didn't really look at it that way.

[Janardan]

Another thing to consider is the fact that when reading the Bhagavad-gita, one must realize that this is a literature of advanced science. It is like giving a calculus text to a freshman in high school. He/She may know a little about calculus, but for the most part it is over the head of most freshmen.

 

Science is trying to play catch-up to what is written in the Bhagavad-vita.

 

I had the same problem at first Mickey. This will not be the last question you have about this most advanced science.

[Kulapavana]

 

I began reading the Bhagavad Gita last nite, and I didn't make it past the preface by Swami Prabhupada when he says:

"Krishna desceds to this planet once in a day of Brahma, or every 8,600,000,000 years."

 

Technically speaking, Lord Krsna comes here even less frequently, as He does not come during Brahma's night either

 

You also have to understand that we are only about half way through Brahma's day, which is roughly what the age of Earth is by current scientific theories.

[cbrahma]

 

I began reading the Bhagavad Gita last nite, and I didn't make it past the preface by Swami Prabhupada when he says:

"Krishna desceds to this planet once in a day of Brahma, or every 8,600,000,000 years."

I had to stop reading and use my basic knowledge of science to point out its widely agreed the earth is 4.5 million years. Now since this is obviously impossible, I began to liken it to the Christian bible, which more than once gives people ages of 100, 200, some even in the thousands. While studying the bible I read that in the time it was compiled, the oldest person in a village was regarded as the wisest, hence the high ages.

But I just coudln't get past such a higher number, so does anyone have an explenation for it?

Einstein established the relativity of time according to 'inertial systems' or frames of reference. From the point of view of the Sun' lifespan, the earth is a few heartbeats.

For a planet that is much larger - Brahma Loka - what seems like a day , would be several million years on earth.

The difficulty is accepting that there are planets that exist on such a large scale. In fact according to the Vedas there are innumerable universes.

Scientists have hypothesized the possibility of other universes. A real scientist is always open to new evidence.

[gHari]

....... that it single-handedly establishes the Vedas as the crown of religious knowledge on the planet.

 

It all seems unfathomable to humans who live in their forms in Kali yuga for only 100 years. Day and night for Lord Brahma are each over four billion years, totalling over eight billion. After the day there is a partial destruction of some of the lower planets while its inhabitants sleep formless. Then after the night again they are manifest in form as a partial creation sees new planets arise. It's all more complicated than we are thinking here. I got my head around it once long ago and found it shocking, just how in tune with modern scientific speculation it all was. Maybe I will do it again. Or maybe you will. Here are some references to get the mind rolling:

 

CC Madhya 20.305:

 

"If in a kalpa a suitable living entity is not available to take charge of BrahmA's post, the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself personally expands and becomes Lord BrahmA.

 

PURPORT

 

One day of BrahmA consists of the four yugas multiplied a thousand times--or, according to solar calculations, 4,320,000,000 years--and such also is the duration of his night. One year of BrahmA's life consists of 360 such days and nights, and BrahmA lives for one hundred such years. Such is the life of a BrahmA.

 

 

 

 

SB 12.4.3:

 

After one day of BrahmA, annihilation occurs during his night, which is of the same duration. At that time all the three planetary systems are subject to destruction.

 

 

 

 

Isopanishad 14p:

 

All the material planets--upper, lower and intermediate, including the sun, moon and Venus--are scattered throughout the universe. These planets exist only during the lifetime of BrahmA. Some lower planets, however, are vanquished after the end of one day of BrahmA and are again created during the next day of BrahmA. On the upper planets, time is calculated differently. One of our years is equal to only twenty-four hours, or one day and night, on many of the upper planets. The four ages of earth (Satya, TretA, DvApara and Kali) last only twelve thousand years according to the time scale of the upper planets. Such a length of time multiplied by one thousand constitutes one day of BrahmA, and one night of BrahmA is the same. Such days and nights accumulate into months and years, and BrahmA lives for one hundred such years. At the end of BrahmA's life, the complete universal manifestation is vanquished.

 

 

 

Bhagavad-gita 8.17:

 

By human calculation, a thousand ages taken together form the duration of BrahmA's one day. And such also is the duration of his night.

 

 

PURPORT

 

The duration of the material universe is limited. It is manifested in cycles of kalpas. A kalpa is a day of BrahmA, and one day of BrahmA consists of a thousand cycles of four yugas, or ages: Satya, TretA, DvApara and Kali. The cycle of Satya is characterized by virtue, wisdom and religion, there being practically no ignorance and vice, and the yuga lasts 1,728,000 years. In the TretA-yuga vice is introduced, and this yuga lasts 1,296,000 years. In the DvApara-yuga there is an even greater decline in virtue and religion, vice increasing, and this yuga lasts 864,000 years. And finally in Kali-yuga (the yuga we have now been experiencing over the past 5,000 years) there is an abundance of strife, ignorance, irreligion and vice, true virtue being practically nonexistent, and this yuga lasts 432,000 years. In Kali-yuga vice increases to such a point that at the termination of the yuga the Supreme Lord Himself appears as the Kalki avatAra, vanquishes the demons, saves His devotees, and commences another Satya-yuga. Then the process is set rolling again. These four yugas, rotating a thousand times, comprise one day of BrahmA, and the same number comprise one night. BrahmA lives one hundred of such "years" and then dies. These "hundred years" by earth calculations total to 311 trillion and 40 billion earth years. By these calculations the life of BrahmA seems fantastic and interminable, but from the viewpoint of eternity it is as brief as a lightning flash. In the Causal Ocean there are innumerable BrahmAs rising and disappearing like bubbles in the Atlantic. BrahmA and his creation are all part of the material universe, and therefore they are in constant flux.

 

 

 

 

SB 1.12.19p:

 

The Vedic literatures are taught in higher planets also, as there is reference in the Bhagavad-gItA (4.1) about the teachings to the sun-god (VivasvAn) by the Lord, and such lessons are transferred by disciplic succession, as it was done by the sun-god to his son Manu, and from Manu to MahArAja IkSvAku. There are fourteen Manus in one day of BrahmA, and the Manu referred to herein is the seventh Manu, who is one of the prajApatis (those who create progeny), and he is the son of the sun-god. He is known as the Vaivasvata Manu. He had ten sons, and MahArAja IkSvAku is one of them. MahArAja IkSvAku also learned bhakti-yoga as taught in the Bhagavad-gItA from his father, Manu, who got it from his father, the sun-god. Later on the teaching of the Bhagavad-gItA came down by disciplic succession from MahArAja IkSvAku, but in course of time the chain was broken by unscrupulous persons, and therefore it again had to be taught to Arjuna on the Battlefield of KurukSetra. So all the Vedic literatures are current from the very beginning of creation of the material world, and thus the Vedic literatures are known as apauruSeya (not made by man). The Vedic knowledge was spoken by the Lord and first heard by BrahmA, the first created living being within the universe.

 

 

 

SB 2.6.11p:

 

In the Bhagavad-gItA (8.17–18) it is stated that according to human calculations one day of BrahmA is equal to one thousand ages of four millenniums (4,300,000 years) each, and the same period is calculated to be his night also. A BrahmA lives for one hundred such years and then dies. A BrahmA, who is generally a great devotee of the Lord, attains liberation after such a downfall. The universe (called the brahmANDa, or the round football-like domain controlled by a BrahmA) is thus annihilated, and thus the inhabitants of a particular planet, or of the whole universe, are also annihilated. Avyakta, mentioned here in this verse, means the night of BrahmA, when partial annihilation takes place and the living entities of that particular brahmANDa, up to the planets of Brahmaloka, along with the big oceans, etc., all repose in the belly of the virAT-puruSa. At the end of a BrahmA's night, the creation again takes place, and the living entities, reserved within the belly of the Lord, are let loose to play their respective parts as if being awakened from a deep slumber. Since the living entities are never destroyed, the annihilation of the material world does not annihilate the existence of the living entities, but until liberation is attained one has to accept one material body after another, again and again. The human life is meant for making a solution to this repeated change of bodies and thereby attaining a place in the spiritual sky, where everything is eternal, blissful and full of knowledge. In other words, the subtle forms of the living entities take place in the heart of the Supreme Being, and such forms take tangible shape at the time of creation.

 

 

 

SB 2.10.46:

 

This process of creation and annihilation described in summary herein is the regulative principle during the duration of BrahmA's one day. It is also the regulative principle in the creation of mahat, in which the material nature is dispersed.

 

PURPORT

 

There are three different types of creation, called mahA-kalpa, vikalpa and kalpa. In the mahA-kalpa the Lord assumes the first puruSa incarnation as KAraNodakazAyI ViSNu with all the potencies of the mahat-tattva and the sixteen principles of creative matter and instruments. The creative instruments are eleven, the ingredients are five, and all of them are products of mahat, or materialistic ego. These creations by the Lord in His feature of KAraNodakazAyI ViSNu are called mahA-kalpa. The creation of BrahmA and dispersion of the material ingredients are called vikalpa, and the creation by BrahmA in each day of his life is called kalpa. Therefore each day of BrahmA is called a kalpa, and there are thirty kalpas in terms of BrahmA's days. This is also confirmed in the Bhagavad-gItA (8.17) as follows:

 

sahasra-yuga-paryantam

 

ahar yad brahmaNo viduH

 

rAtiM yuga-sahasrAntAM

 

te 'ho-rAtra-vido janAH

 

In the upper planetary system the duration of one complete day and night is equal to one complete year of this earth. This is accepted even by the modern scientist and attested by the astronauts. Similarly, in the region of still higher planetary systems the duration of day and night is still greater than in the heavenly planets. The four yugas are calculated in terms of the heavenly calendars and accordingly are twelve thousand years in terms of the heavenly planets. This is called a divya-yuga, and one thousand divya-yugas make one day of BrahmA. The creation during the day of BrahmA is called kalpa, and the creation of BrahmA is called vikalpa. When vikalpas are made possible by the breathing of MahA-ViSNu, this is called a mahA-kalpa. There are regular and systematic cycles of these mahA-kalpas, vikalpas and kalpas. In answer to MahArAja ParIkSit's question about them, Sukadeva GosvAmI answered in the PrabhAsa-khaNDa of the Skanda PurANa. They are as follows:

 

prathamaH zveta-kalpaz ca

 

dvitIyo nIla-lohitaH

 

vAmadevas tRtIyas tu

 

tato gAthAntaro 'paraH

 

rauravaH paJcamaH proktaH

 

SaSThaH prANa iti smRtaH

 

saptamo 'tha bRhat-kalpaH

 

kandarpo 'STama ucyate

 

sadyotha navamaH kalpa

 

IzAno dazamaH smRtaH

 

dhyAna ekAdazaH proktas

 

tathA sArasvato 'paraH

 

trayodaza udAnas tu

 

garuDo 'tha caturdazaH

 

kaurmaH paJcadazo jJeyaH

 

paurNamAsI prajApateH

 

SoDazo nArasiMhas tu

 

samAdhis tu tato 'paraH

 

Agneyo viSNujaH sauraH

 

soma-kalpas tato 'paraH

 

dvAviMzo bhAvanaH proktaH

 

supumAn iti cAparaH

 

vaikuNThaz cArSTiSas tadvad

 

valI-kalpas tato 'paraH

 

saptaviMzo 'tha vairAjo

 

gaurI-kalpas tathAparaH

 

mAhezvaras tathA proktas

 

tripuro yatra ghAtitaH

 

pitR-kalpas tathA cAnte

 

yaH kuhUr brahmaNaH smRtA

 

Therefore the thirty kalpas of BrahmA are: (1) Sveta-kalpa, (2) NIlalohita, (3) VAmadeva, (4) GAthAntara, (5) Raurava, (6) PrANa, (7) BRhat-kalpa, (8) Kandarpa, (9) Sadyotha, (10) IzAna, (11) DhyAna, (12) SArasvata, (13) UdAna, (14) GaruDa, (15) Kaurma, (16) NArasiMha, (17) SamAdhi, (18) Agneya, (19) ViSNuja, (20) Saura, (21) Soma-kalpa, (22) BhAvana, (23) Supuma, (24) VaikuNTha, (25) ArciSa, (26) ValI-kalpa, (27) VairAja, (28) GaurI-kalpa, (29) MAhezvara, (30) PaitR-kalpa.

 

These are BrahmA's days only, and he has to live months and years up to one hundred, so we can just imagine how many creations there are in kalpas only. Then again there are vikalpas, which are generated by the breathing of MahA-ViSNu, as stated in the Brahma-saMhitA (yasyaika-nizvasita-kAlam athAvalambya jIvanti loma-vilajA jagadaNDa-nAthAH [bs. 5.48]). The BrahmAs live only during the breathing period of MahA-ViSNu. So the exhaling and inhaling of ViSNu are mahA-kalpas, and all these are due to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for no one else is the master of all creations.

 

 

 

SB 11.10.30:

 

In all the planetary systems, from the heavenly to the hellish, and for all of the great demigods who live for one thousand yuga cycles, there is fear of Me in My form of time. Even BrahmA, who possesses the supreme life span of 311,040,000,000,000 years, is also afraid of Me.

 

PURPORT

 

There are many statements throughout Vedic literature proving that even the great demigods fear the time potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Even in the heavenly planets there is no relief from the miseries of material life. No conditioned soul can live eternally, as clearly demonstrated by the deaths of HiraNyakazipu and other demons. Since even the demigods fear the time potency of the Personality of Godhead, one may easily conclude that KRSNa is the Absolute Truth and that He is eternally the supreme controller of everything and everyone. Lord KRSNa is the only real shelter.

 

 

 

SB 12.8.5:

 

Authorities say that MArkaNDeya RSi, the son of MRkaNDu. was an exceptionally long-lived sage who was the only survivor at the end of BrahmA's day, when the entire universe was merged in the flood of annihilation. But this same MArkaNDeya RSi, the foremost descendant of BhRgu, took birth in my own family during the current day of BrahmA, and we have not yet seen any total annihilation in this day of BrahmA. Also, it is well known that MArkaNDeya while wandering helplessly in the great ocean of annihilation, saw in those fearful waters a wonderful personality--an infant boy lying alone within the fold of a banyan leaf. O SUta, I am most bewildered and curious about this great sage, MArkaNDeya RSi. O great yogI, you are universally accepted as the authority on all the PurANas. Therefore kindly dispel my confusion.

 

PURPORT

 

Lord BrahmA's day, consisting of his 12 hours, lasts 4 billion 320 million years, and his night is of the same duration. Apparently MArkaNDeya lived throughout one such day and night and in the following day of BrahmA continued living as the same MArkaNDeya. It seems that when annihilation occurred during BrahmA's night, the sage wandered throughout the fearful waters of destruction and saw within those waters an extraordinary personality lying on a banyan leaf. All of these mysteries concerning. MArkaNDeya will be clarified by SUta GosvAmI at the request of the great sages.

 

 

 

 

CC Adi 3.10:

 

At the end of the DvApara-yuga of the twenty-eighth divya-yuga, Lord KRSNa appears on earth with the full paraphernalia of His eternal Vraja-dhAma.

 

PURPORT

 

Now is the term of Vaivasvata Manu, during which Lord Caitanya appears. First Lord KRSNa appears at the close of the DvApara-yuga of the twenty-eighth divya-yuga, and then Lord Caitanya appears in the Kali-yuga of the same divya-yuga. Lord KRSNa and Lord Caitanya appear once in each day of BrahmA, or once in fourteen manv-antaras, each of seventy-one divya-yugas in duration.

 

From the beginning of BrahmA's day of 4,320,000,000 years, six Manus appear and disappear before Lord KRSNa appears. Thus 1,975,320,000 years of the day of BrahmA elapse before the appearance of Lord KRSNa. This is an astronomical calculation according to solar years.

 

 

 

CC Adi 5.113:

 

In the ages and millenniums of Manu, He appears as different incarnations to establish the principles of real religion and vanquish the principles of irreligion.

 

PURPORT

 

The Lord ViSNu who lies in the ocean of milk incarnates Himself in various forms to maintain the laws of the cosmos and annihilate the causes of disturbance. Such incarnations are visible in every manv-antara (i.e., in the course of the reign of each Manu, who lives for 71 x 4,320,000 years). Fourteen such Manus take their birth and die, to yield a place for the next, during one day of BrahmA.

 

[gHari]

In addition to major destruction after 4.32 billion years there will also be partial destruction fourteen times within that period:

 

PrabhupAda: There are different, when BrahmA goes to sleep, that is one kind of devastation, and when he dies there is one kind. And during BrahmA's days there are other devastations, manvantara.

SadApUta: After a devastation, do the...

PrabhupAda: Different classes of devastation. There are many devastations during BrahmA's day, and there is another devastation during BrahmA's sleep, and another devastation when BrahmA dies.

SvarUpa DAmodara: And during different Manus also.

PrabhupAda: That is day. Such devastation takes place during BrahmA's day. Fourteen Manus.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Science has no business being in a religous book, in the first place.

 

I guess you haven't read the books published from the lectures of Srila B.R. Sridhar Dev-Goswami, then

 

Param-Gurudev will, from time to time, quote Western philosophers and refer to scientific examples to illustrate a philosophical point.

 

The faithful look to the saints and scriptures to confirm or deny what is found in the realm of science, wheras the faithless look to science to confirm or deny what is found in the realm of faith.

 

Some of us still very much like the idea of the "Grand Unified Theory" (G.U.T.). Some of us believe we have *found* the G.U.T. in the form of the Krishna conception!!

[gHari]

I located a 1995 June Back to Godhead magazine which featured an article called "Puranic Time and the Archeological Record" by Drutakarma Dasa (Michael A. Cremo). The following is an excerpt which addresses our location within the 4.32 billion year daytime window of our current Brahma:

<blockquote>"According to Puranic accounts, we are now in the twenty-eighth yuga cycle of the seventh manvantara period of the present day of Brahma. This would give the inhabited earth an age of 2.3 billion years. Interestingly enough, the oldest undisputed organisms recognized by paleontolgists - algae fossils such as those from the Gunflint formation in Canada - are just about that old".

</blockquote>

[Mikey]

Thank you everyone for your responses, I was overwhelmed with the intellegent responses I recieved and you all helped to shed light about my question. I continued my study of the Gita with a more open mind, not questioning things that may confuse my scientificaly, and am moving along nicely. I am very impressed of your guys knowledge, to be so passionate about the topic is very encouraging!