I am very much anxious to get a child and good health?

[dattaswami]

I am very much anxious to get a child and good health?

 

You are getting everything according to your present deeds and also the past deeds. The Lord has arranged the cycles of your births. In each cycle happiness and misery are alternatively arranged leaving the sequence of good and bad deeds. Even if you have done two sins subsequently the fruits of the two sins are not given to you subsequently. The result of a good deed is penetrated in between these two sins. Like this the Lord has arranged all your life cycles at present and in the future. If you are pestering Him, He will bring the result of good deed from the future cycle to the present cycle as a pre-matured fixed deposit with reduced value. By such interference your future life cycles will be filled with misery. Then you will scold the Lord crying “Oh! Lord you have given me misery from birth to death”. You don’t remember your foolish interference in the past birth.

The other way is that the Lord in human form should transfer your sin on Him and should suffer for your sake. This path is possible only when you don’t aspire for this path and worship the Lord in human form by sacrificing all your bonds of the world. This is possible only for a true devotee who never wishes that the Lord should suffer for his or her sake. Such true devotee will be worshipping the Lord without aspiring anything in return. One has to understand the theory of Karma and the devotion towards Lord. The Lord suffers for the sins of His true devotees only who are really serving the Lord in practice by doing Karma Sanyasa (Sacrifice of work) and Karma Phala Tyaga (Sacrifice of the fruit of work) in His mission without aspiring anything in return. In such service even an Iota of desire should not be present even in any biological cell of the human being. This is called ‘NISHKAMA KARMA YOGA’ AS EMPHASIZED IN GITA.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The other way is that the Lord in human form should transfer your sin on Him and should suffer for your sake. This path is possible only when you don’t aspire for this path and worship the Lord in human form by sacrificing all your bonds of the world. This is possible only for a true devotee who never wishes that the Lord should suffer for his or her sake. Such true devotee will be worshipping the Lord without aspiring anything in return

 

This is a very nice post. It rings of universal truth.

 

However, when Krishna says to surrender unto him and that he will take away our karma when we are acting in his service, I do not believe that there is an implication that Krishna will have to suffer as a consequence.

 

God suffering for our sins is a Christian conception. It's beautiful in it's own (somewhat sado-masochistic) way, but it is not a Vaishnava conception as far as I understand.

 

Just like Lord Shiva can drink an ocean of poison and not be harmed, Krishna can take all reaction without suffering anything.

[dattaswami]

 

This is a very nice post. It rings of universal truth.

 

However, when Krishna says to surrender unto him and that he will take away our karma when we are acting in his service, I do not believe that there is an implication that Krishna will have to suffer as a consequence.

 

God suffering for our sins is a Christian conception. It's beautiful in it's own (somewhat sado-masochistic) way, but it is not a Vaishnava conception as far as I understand.

 

Just like Lord Shiva can drink an ocean of poison and not be harmed, Krishna can take all reaction without suffering anything.

 

The stars or planets are the executives of the cycle of samskaras, karmas and their corresponding fruits which are totally called as cycle of deeds (karma charka). They are the executives of the judgments given by the judge (Dharma deva), who follows the constitution written by God. God never interferes with the executive function of His own commandments as said in the Gita (Nadatte kasyachit paapam). Shastras say that one has to undergo the results of his deeds even after millions of Yugas (Kalpa koti satairapi). This does not mean that the postponement of simple principle takes place. The interest is accumulated by way of compounding. Therefore scholars like to enjoy the results as early as possible. They never pray God to cancel the judgment which is impossible.

By prayers or certain rituals or by exhaustive crying before God, only postponement of the enjoyment of the results along with the interest takes place. Ignorant people misunderstand this postponement as canceling. Therefore this fundamental aspect must be realized. When the priests do certain rituals by taking some dakshina from you, they are purchasing your punishment through your money. Therefore a real Vedic scholar will never do the business of a priest because he knows the whole concept. No real Vedic scholar accepts the dakshina and even food from anybody which are called as aparigraha and vaishwadeva respectively.

Sai Baba said that the breads offered by the house holders were their’s sins only. Eating that bread is only enjoying the sin of others. Thus you find in our ancient tradition when somebody offers meals in a function to others, others also offer the same in their functions. The priest is earning his livelihood by this way but is becoming more and more affected. The priests are thinking that they are cheating the public but they are cheating themselves by this way. It is better to do hard work and earn the livelihood than such business of transfer of sin for money.

But if the whole ritual is transformed into a divine worship of God, the story is totally different. The grace of God comes there and the God may be pleased to reduce or remove the sin by enjoying it Himself through a human form. Here also the justice is not violated. The father pays the fine for his son. This is the only way of removing the sin. Either it should be postponed with interest or it should be sold to a priest or it should be enjoyed by God Himself. In anyway the result of the deed has to be enjoyed and it can never be cancelled without enjoyment.

But if you conduct the ritual as a divine worship of God and give dakshina to a deserving devotee, then the story is different. Your sin is not enjoyed by the devotee. God comes down in human form and enjoys your sin for the sake of that devotee. Even in this case the results have to be enjoyed only. Instead of selling your sin to a priest, it is better to sell your sin to a devotee. God has the tolerance to enjoy the sin of His devotee or the sin transferred to His devotee from you. But if you do the ritual by worshipping God and offering dakshina to the devotee, without the aim of removing your sins, the result is tremendous. It is a real sacrifice without any aim of business. God will undergo all your sins without any account since your sacrifice is also without any account. Therefore you must remove this poisonous idea of removing your sins through rituals by offering dakshina to the priests or devotees. You must be prepared to undergo the results of your sins and do the rituals with the same sacrifice without aspiring any fruit. Then you will be blessed by God.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

But if you conduct the ritual as a divine worship of God and give dakshina to a deserving devotee, then the story is different. Your sin is not enjoyed by the devotee. God comes down in human form and enjoys your sin for the sake of that devotee. Even in this case the results have to be enjoyed only. Instead of selling your sin to a priest, it is better to sell your sin to a devotee. God has the tolerance to enjoy the sin of His devotee or the sin transferred to His devotee from you. But if you do the ritual by worshipping God and offering dakshina to the devotee, without the aim of removing your sins, the result is tremendous.

 

Can you provide some sort of scriptural reference for this concept?

[dattaswami]

 

Can you provide some sort of scriptural reference for this concept?

 

Veda says that every body carries on the good and bad results along with them (Priyaa priye…). At the same time Veda says that God is removing the sins of the deserving devotee (Ubhe punya pape, Apahatapapma etc.). Gita also says that one has to enjoy the good and bad results of the wheel of deeds (Tetvagham….tetambhuktva….).

At the same time the Lord says that He protects His devotees (Yoga kshemam…). God is the judge, who has delivered these results based on His own constitution. How can He violate His own judgment even in the case of a deserving devotee? Judgment is Universal but devotion is personal. This needs link of interpretation. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> wanted to give all His wealth to Kuchela and transfer His poverty to Him self. In the incarnations of Datta this tradition is very clear in the experience. As a judge He fines His son and as father He pays the fine. The constitution is not violated and at the same time the devotee is saved. Jesus is another best example of this tradition.

Gayatri asked that why <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, the Lord, could not repeat Gita when Arjuna asked again. She said that a chemistry lecturer can teach chemistry at any time. This point can be correct provided God is in the inet human body like the lecturer (Jeevatma) present in his inert human body. In the case of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, God is present in the human body which is a composite of the three bodies (causal, subtle and gross). The subtle and causal bodies together are called as Jeevatma and the gross body is the inert house.

In the case of the chemistry lecturer, he is just a composite of these three bodies i.e., Jeevatma present in the inert gross body. The chemistry is in the Jeevatma of the chemistry lecturer. In the case of Krishna, God spoke Bagavat Gita and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> spoke AnuGita. All the knowledge taught by Sandeepa is present in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, who spoke Anugita. But Bhagavat Gita came directly from God and God never requires any knowledge from any teacher. Thus, a double personality exists and therefore it is said “God in flesh”.

God speaks as a speaker and He does not require any aid. But if God speaks directly, people will get tension due to excitation by observation of the super power. Then knowledge is not grasped. To keep them in ground state, God speaks directly from human body and people approach without tension thinking that the human body is speaking. If God enters the inert body only, it is as good as entering an inert statue. Speaking through statue will again raise the tension. When God enters the human body He needs the Jeevatman also, which possesses all the qualities for His play. God need not use His special power for a work, when it can be done by the medium itself. Arjuna was retaining a little egoism and therefore the concept of the exhibition of such double personality is needed. Such analysis will pacify the egoism because God and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are different. For higher level devotees like Gopikas there is no difference between <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and God.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

So, I guess your answer is: no, you can't provide Vedic scriptural reference for the concept of the Lord suffering for our sins?

 

 

Veda says that every body carries on the good and bad results along with them (Priyaa priye…). At the same time Veda says that God is removing the sins of the deserving devotee (Ubhe punya pape, Apahatapapma etc.). Gita also says that one has to enjoy the good and bad results of the wheel of deeds (Tetvagham….tetambhuktva….).

At the same time the Lord says that He protects His devotees (Yoga kshemam…). God is the judge, who has delivered these results based on His own constitution. How can He violate His own judgment even in the case of a deserving devotee? Judgment is Universal but devotion is personal. This needs link of interpretation. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> wanted to give all His wealth to Kuchela and transfer His poverty to Him self. In the incarnations of Datta this tradition is very clear in the experience. As a judge He fines His son and as father He pays the fine. The constitution is not violated and at the same time the devotee is saved. Jesus is another best example of this tradition.

Gayatri asked that why <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, the Lord, could not repeat Gita when Arjuna asked again. She said that a chemistry lecturer can teach chemistry at any time. This point can be correct provided God is in the inet human body like the lecturer (Jeevatma) present in his inert human body. In the case of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, God is present in the human body which is a composite of the three bodies (causal, subtle and gross). The subtle and causal bodies together are called as Jeevatma and the gross body is the inert house.

In the case of the chemistry lecturer, he is just a composite of these three bodies i.e., Jeevatma present in the inert gross body. The chemistry is in the Jeevatma of the chemistry lecturer. In the case of Krishna, God spoke Bagavat Gita and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> spoke AnuGita. All the knowledge taught by Sandeepa is present in <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, who spoke Anugita. But Bhagavat Gita came directly from God and God never requires any knowledge from any teacher. Thus, a double personality exists and therefore it is said “God in flesh”.

God speaks as a speaker and He does not require any aid. But if God speaks directly, people will get tension due to excitation by observation of the super power. Then knowledge is not grasped. To keep them in ground state, God speaks directly from human body and people approach without tension thinking that the human body is speaking. If God enters the inert body only, it is as good as entering an inert statue. Speaking through statue will again raise the tension. When God enters the human body He needs the Jeevatman also, which possesses all the qualities for His play. God need not use His special power for a work, when it can be done by the medium itself. Arjuna was retaining a little egoism and therefore the concept of the exhibition of such double personality is needed. Such analysis will pacify the egoism because God and <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> are different. For higher level devotees like Gopikas there is no difference between <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> and God.

[dattaswami]

Ubhe punya pape, Apahatapapma etc

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Ubhe punya pape, Apahatapapma etc

 

How about a URL to an independent source with an English translation (I don't speak Sanskrit, Hindi, etc., just English and a few words of Spanish)?

 

I still don't see how you go from "removing sins" to "suffering sins".

 

Let's use the example of static electricity (or other electricity, for that matter). If we say Karma is like static electricity, we may accumulate so much static electricity on our bodies. If we touch another person, that person may feel some shock as some charge is transferred to them.

 

However, if we touch a pipe that is running into the Earth, the electricity passes harmlessly to "ground" (though we may still feel some shock ourselves).

 

Similarly, Krishna is "ground" with regards to Karma. He can take all Karma while suffering no consequence Himself.

[dattaswami]

 

How about a URL to an independent source with an English translation (I don't speak Sanskrit, Hindi, etc., just English and a few words of Spanish)?

 

I still don't see how you go from "removing sins" to "suffering sins".

 

Let's use the example of static electricity (or other electricity, for that matter). If we say Karma is like static electricity, we may accumulate so much static electricity on our bodies. If we touch another person, that person may feel some shock as some charge is transferred to them.

 

However, if we touch a pipe that is running into the Earth, the electricity passes harmlessly to "ground" (though we may still feel some shock ourselves).

 

Similarly, Krishna is "ground" with regards to Karma. He can take all Karma while suffering no consequence Himself.

 

It is your assumption only.

 

Let me clear you. Lord is impartial He comes in human form in every human generation to preach and uplift the human souls, He is known as Human Incarnation. Absoulte God is unimaginable incomprehensible and beyond our logic. Such God comes down in human form to give His presence to us. By this we can touch Him, talk to Him, see Him, co-live with Him. Lord comes in human form so that one can approach Him without any tension and fear and clear all our doubts. He is available to you in this generation now.

 

The real characteristic properties of the Lord as declared by Veda are the Special Knowledge (Prajnana), the Love (Rasa or Prema) and the Bliss (Ananda). Veda also says that these three characteristics must be experienced by others if the possessor is having really those characteristics. The characteristic property of the fire is heat. Any person who is near the fire should experience the heat and then only we can say that the fire is hot. Similarly the Lord in human form must make others to experience the Jnana, Prema and Ananda. Veda says ‘Esha Hyeva Anandayati’, which means that He creates Bliss in the hearts of others. The Lord should not be recognized merely by the miracles because even demons performed these miracles. Miracles are only associated property like jewels.

Moreover the Lord in human form always hesitates to perform the miracles unless special emergency arises. The reason for this is that the Lord is dwelling in the human form, which is a product of this nature (Prakrithi). He is living in the nature. Therefore the Lord follows the rules of the nature and these rules were formulated by Himself only. No administrator will like to contradict his own rules. Even in the emergency when He voilates the rule of the nature, He keeps the voilation as a secret. When the administrator voilates his own rule, he will not propagate about that voilation. He maintains the secrecy of the voilation. Only demons voilate frequently the rules of the nature and also advertise about the voilation because they did not frame the rules. When Lord Krishna made artificial sunset by covering the Sun with His Sudarshana Chakra, He kept it as a secret. People thought that a cloud covered the Sun. Voilating His own rule itself is a mistake.

Exhibition of voilation of His own rule by Himself will be another mistake. In that situation the life of Arjuna who was His closest devotee was under threat. In that emergency only the Lord voilated the Prakrithi and used His super power (Maya). In the eighteen days of Mahabharatha war He never used His super power. Bhishma wounded the Lord with severe arrows. Even then the Lord did not use His super power. Therefore miracles are not the real characteristics of the Lord. Rama never performed miracles except in the case of ‘Ahalya’ and in breaking the bow of Siva. <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> also performed the miracles in the child hood to save His own life and to save the lives of His devotees. All these situations were the cases of unavoidable emergency.

When Lord suffers for the sins of 'His people', He actually suffers the sins the same way the soul would have suffered, this is to protect the law of justice. He will not simply cancel the sins, it actually undergoes the sin with the same intensity and mangnitude. Example: Jesus

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

This thread is quite speculative, and I don't have time to analyze each point (especially since it is not backed up by scriptural quotation). But two points I would like to quickly mention:

 

 

However, when Krishna says to surrender unto him and that he will take away our karma when we are acting in his service, I do not believe that there is an implication that Krishna will have to suffer as a consequence.

 

In the fourth chapter of Bhgavad Gita Lord Krishna states very clearly that no karma can touch him (Gita 4.14):

 

na mam karmani limpanti

na me karma-phale sprha

iti mam yo 'bhijanati

karmabhir na sa badhyate

"There is no karma that affects Me; nor do I aspire for the fruits of karma. One who understands this truth about Me also does not become entangled in the fruitive reactions of karma."

 

Thus not only is Krishna completely free from the influence of any karmic reactions, but even one who understands this about him also becomes free.

 

 

By prayers or certain rituals or by exhaustive crying before God, only postponement of the enjoyment of the results along with the interest takes place. Ignorant people misunderstand this postponement as canceling.

 

The reactions are not just postponed, but burnt to ashes - destroyed completely (Gita 4.37):

 

 

 

yathaidhamsi samiddho 'gnir

bhasmasat kurute 'rjuna

jnanagnih sarva-karmani

bhasmasat kurute tatha

 

 

As the blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.

[dattaswami]

 

This thread is quite speculative, and I don't have time to analyze each point (especially since it is not backed up by scriptural quotation). But two points I would like to quickly mention:

 

 

 

In the fourth chapter of Bhgavad Gita Lord Krishna states very clearly that no karma can touch him (Gita 4.14):

 

na mam karmani limpanti

na me karma-phale sprha

iti mam yo 'bhijanati

karmabhir na sa badhyate

"There is no karma that affects Me; nor do I aspire for the fruits of karma. One who understands this truth about Me also does not become entangled in the fruitive reactions of karma."

 

Thus not only is Krishna completely free from the influence of any karmic reactions, but even one who understands this about him also becomes free.

 

 

 

The reactions are not just postponed, but burnt to ashes - destroyed completely (Gita 4.37):

 

 

 

yathaidhamsi samiddho 'gnir

bhasmasat kurute 'rjuna

jnanagnih sarva-karmani

bhasmasat kurute tatha

 

As the blazing fire turns firewood to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge burn to ashes all reactions to material activities.

 

Lord comes in every human generation in human form to preach and uplift the human souls.

 

One of the basic ideas of the human incarnation is to suffer for the sins of deserving devotees. For such purpose only the human body is selected for incarnation. The human body of the incarnation suffers like any other human body. Then only the real transfer of sins is fully justified. The incarnation can avoid the pain during suffering by using the super power of God.

But God never deceives the justice. Therefore Lord really suffered all the punishments of deserving devotees as any other human body suffers and fulfilled the justice in the transfer of sins. This is the real reason why the God selects a human body and gets identified with it. If it is inert statue such suffering cannot take place.

Those who are the real devotees and those who served the Lord without aspiring anything in return are only liberated from their sins.

Such devotees never pray the Lord for the liberation from their sins because they never desire that the Lord should suffer for their sins. Therefore, they never agree for the liberation from their sins. If they come to know they will object such transfer of sins because they are the real devotees of the God. Hence the Lord suffers for their sins without any information to them. If you are not turning towards the Lord, you have to carry all your sins with you and go to hell. If you turn towards the Lord, He will liberate you from all your sins provided you change and continue your future life in His divine service. His work is to bring peace in this world and see that every human being gets the salvation. He wants the hell to be permanently closed. But you should turn towards God without aspiring for your liberation from the sins.

You must participate in His service and yet you should be ready to undergo the punishments of your sins as per the rule. You should not ask Him or even desire for such liberation from your sins. Once you desire for such liberation you are indirectly asking the Lord to suffer for your sins. In such a case you are not His real devotee. He takes your sins and liberates you when you serve Him without any aspiration for such liberation.

[theist]

 

When Lord suffers for the sins of 'His people', He actually suffers the sins the same way the soul would have suffered, this is to protect the law of justice. He will not simply cancel the sins, it actually undergoes the sin with the same intensity and mangnitude. Example: Jesus

 

Jesus Christ is a transcendentally situated devotee who was fully emmersed in Love for God. The suffering he experienced on the cross was shown in His prayer asking that those that crucified Him be forgiven for their ignorant actions. His pain was due to His compassion for the fallen souls.

[dattaswami]

 

Jesus Christ is a transcendentally situated devotee who was fully emmersed in Love for God. The suffering he experienced on the cross was shown in His prayer asking that those that crucified Him be forgiven for their ignorant actions. His pain was due to His compassion for the fallen souls.

 

God has to come in human body only to preach the human beings. But there is natural repulsion between the human beings as in the case of like charged particles due to jealousy and egoism. The crusification of the Lord Jesus is the best example of such jealousy and egoism. Holy Jesus suffered for the sins of the real believers of God only. One of the basic ideas of the human incarnation is to suffer for the sins of deserving devotees. For such purpose only the human body is selected for incarnation. The human body of the incarnation suffers like any other human body. Then only the real transfer of sins is fully justified. The incarnation can avoid the pain during suffering by using the super power of God.

But God never deceives the justice. Therefore Jesus really suffered all the punishments of deserving devotees as any other human body suffers and fulfilled the justice in the transfer of sins. This is the real reason why the God selects a human body and gets identified with it. If it is inert statue such suffering cannot take place. Though the Son is suffering on the Holy Cross, but actually the Father who pervaded all over the Son suffered. This is the essence of saying that Father and Son are one and the same. The Father does not suffer for the sins of the wicked people who will not change at all. Those who are the real devotees and those who served the Lord without aspiring anything in return are only liberated from their sins.

Such devotees never pray the Lord for the liberation from their sins because they never desire that the Lord should suffer for their sins. Therefore, they never agree for the liberation from their sins. If they come to know they will object such transfer of sins because they are the real devotees of the God. Hence the Lord suffers for their sins without any information to them. If you are not turning towards the Lord, you have to carry all your sins with you and go to hell. If you turn towards the Lord, He will liberate you from all your sins provided you change and continue your future life in His divine service. His work is to bring peace in this world and see that every human being gets the salvation. He wants the hell to be permanently closed. But you should turn towards God without aspiring for your liberation from the sins.

You must participate in His service and yet you should be ready to undergo the punishments of your sins as per the rule. You should not ask Him or even desire for such liberation from your sins. Once you desire for such liberation you are indirectly asking the Lord to suffer for your sins. In such a case you are not His real devotee. He takes your sins and liberates you when you serve Him without any aspiration for such liberation.