How fallen is too fallen?

[Vigraha]

 

 

How fallen is too fallen?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(1)

sri-krsna-caitanya prabhu doya koro more

toma bina ke doyalu jagat-samsare

(2)

patita-pavana-hetu tava avatara

mo sama patita prabhu na paibe are

(3)

ha ha prabhu nityananda, premananda sukhi

krpabalokana koro, ami baro duhkhi

(4)

doya koro sita-pati adwaita gosai

tava krpa-bale pai caitanya-nitai

(5)

ha ha swarup, sanatana, rupa, raghunatha

bhatta-jugau, sri jiva ha prabhu lokanatha

(6)

doya koro sri acarya prabhu srinivasa

ramacandra-sanga mage narottama-dasa

 

 

This is a song composed by Narottama dasa Thakura. He prays to Lord Caitanya, "My dear Lord, please be merciful to me, because who can be more merciful than Your Lordship within these three worlds?" Actually, this is a fact. Not only Narottama dasa Thakura, but Rupa Gosvami also prayed to Lord Caitanya in this way.

At the time of the first meeting of Lord Caitanya and Rupa Gosvami at Prayaga (Allahabad), Srila Rupa Gosvami said, "My dear Lord, You are the most munificent of all incarnations, because You are distributing love of Krsna, Krsna consciousness." When Krsna was personally present He simply asked us to surrender, but He did not distribute Himself so easily. He made conditions -- "First of all you surrender." But this incarnation, Lord Caitanya, although Krsna Himself, makes no such condition. He simply distributes: "Take love of Krsna."

Therefore Lord Caitanya is approved as the most munificent incarnation. Narottama dasa Thakura says, "Please be merciful to me. You are so magnanimous, because You have seen the fallen souls of this age, and You are very much compassionate to them, but You should know also that I am the most fallen. No one is more greatly fallen than me." Patita-pavana-hetu tava avatara: "Your incarnation is just to reclaim the conditioned, fallen souls, but I assure You that You will not find a greater fallen soul than me. Therefore, my claim is first."

Then he prays to Lord Nityananda. He says, ha ha prabhu Nityananda premananda-sukhi: "My dear Lord Nityananda, You are always joyful in spiritual bliss. Since You always appear very happy, I have come to You because I am most unhappy. If You kindly put Your glance over me, I may also become happy." Then he prays to Advaita Prabhu. Doya koro sita-pati adwaita gosai, Advaita Prabhu's wife's name was Sita. Therefore He is sometimes addressed as sita-pati. Thus Narottama dasa Thakura prays, "My dear Advaita Prabhu, husband of Sita, You are so kind. Please be kind to me. If You are kind to me, naturally Lord Caitanya and Nityananda will also be kind to me." Actually, Advaita Prabhu invited Lord Caitanya to come down.

When Advaita Prabhu saw that the fallen souls were all engaged simply in sense gratificatory processes, not understanding Krsna consciousness, He felt very much compassionate toward the fallen souls, and He also felt Himself incapable of claiming them all. He therefore prayed to Lord Krsna, "Please come Yourself. Without Your personal presence it is not possible to deliver these fallen souls." Thus by His invitation Lord Caitanya appeared. Naturally, Narottama dasa Thakura prays to Advaita Prabhu, "If You will be kind to me, naturally Lord Caitanya and Nityananda also will be kind to me."

Then he prays to the Gosvamis. Ha ha swarup, sanatana, rupa, raghunatha. Swarup refers to Svarupa Damodara, the personal secretary of Lord Caitanya. He was always with Caitanya Mahaprabhu and immediately arranged for whatever Caitanya Mahaprabhu wanted.

Two personal attendants, Svarupa Damodara and Govinda, were always constantly with Lord Caitanya. Therefore, Narottama dasa Thakura also prays to Svarupa Damodara and then to the six Gosvamis, the next disciples of Lord Caitanya -- Sri Rupa Gosvami, Sri Sanatana Gosvami, Sri Bhatta Raghunatha Gosvami, Sri Gopala Bhatta Gosvami, Sri Jiva Gosvami, and Sri Raghunatha dasa Gosvami. These six Gosvamis were directly instructed by Lord Caitanya to spread this movement of Krsna consciousness. Narottama dasa Thakura also prays for their mercy.

After the six Gosvamis, the next acarya was Srinivasa Acarya. Actually, Narottama dasa Thakura was in the disciplic succession after Srinivasa Acarya and was almost his contemporary, and Narottama dasa's personal friend was Ramacandra Cakravarti. Therefore he prays, "I always desire the company of Ramacandra." He desires a devotee's company. The whole process is that we should always pray for the mercy of the superior acaryas and keep company with pure devotees. Then it will be easier for us to advance in Krsna consciousness and receive the mercy of Lord Caitanya and Lord Krsna. This is the sum and substance of this song sung by Narottama dasa Thakura. By His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

[Vigraha]

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only Krishna's love can do that.The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

 

 

 

Narottama dasa Thakura prays to Lord Caitanya

 

Narottama dasa Thakura prays to Lord Caitanya, "My dear Lord, please be merciful to me, because who can be more merciful than Your Lordship within these three worlds?" Actually, this is a fact. Not only Narottama dasa Thakura, but Rupa Gosvami also prayed to Lord Caitanya in this way.

At the time of the first meeting of Lord Caitanya and Rupa Gosvami at Prayaga (Allahabad), Srila Rupa Gosvami said, "My dear Lord, You are the most munificent of all incarnations, because You are distributing love of Krsna, Krsna consciousness." When Krsna was personally present He simply asked us to surrender, but He did not distribute Himself so easily. He made conditions -- "First of all you surrender." But this incarnation, Lord Caitanya, although Krsna Himself, makes no such condition. He simply distributes: "Take love of Krsna."

 

Therefore Lord Caitanya is approved as the most munificent incarnation. Narottama dasa Thakura says, "Please be merciful to me. You are so magnanimous, because You have seen the fallen souls of this age, and You are very much compassionate to them, but You should know also that I am the most fallen. No one is more greatly fallen than me." Patita-pavana-hetu tava avatara: "Your incarnation is just to reclaim the conditioned, fallen souls, but I assure You that You will not find a greater fallen soul than me. Therefore, my claim is first." By His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

 

 

 

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.

 

[Guruvani]

most members of the forum do not even read dissertations.

 

this forum is for discussions and sharing ideas.

 

I try to keep my posts to a few sentences or a couple of paragraphs because I know most members don't even read these dissertations.

 

Maybe you should try to make a point very succinctly in a few sentences?

 

You would probably get more response to your topics.

 

Pontificators are usually ignored on discussion forums.

[gHari]

They say that the only qualification to receive Lord Caitanya's mercy is that we must be unqualified for His mercy. Let us all remain continually qualified for His ocean of mercy.

 

The other stuff will take care of itself.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Q: How fallen is too fallen?

 

A: I don't know, but I'm gonna keep digging myself in further until I find out!!

 

 

Sorry, I couldn't resist that!

 

[Guruvani]

too fallen is when you have to jump up to touch bottom!!

[suchandra]

 

too fallen is when you have to jump up to touch bottom!!

“This ISKCON Studies convention on the topic of interpretation has taught us that it is possible to see things from different angles, and that if you see something one way, it may be difficult to see it another way. When Srila Prabhupada said, ‘Don’t misinterpret,’ he actually meant ‘interpret well, interpret skillfully,’ so that we can communicate our tradition well and skillfully to the world."

Srila Krishnaksetra Prabhu (ISKCON guru)

The First ISKCON Studies Conference (held from July 27th - 30th 2007 at Prabhupada-desh, in Italy)

[Svarupa]

 

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only Krishna's love can do that.The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

 

 

 

 

 

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.

 

 

I like these quotes

 

It's ashame we convinced ourselves we were so knowlegable, advanced and 'pure' in the late 70s and 80s when in fact our leadership was almost spiritually blind, therefore they MUST share responsiblity for eveything and everyone in ISKCON without excuses. Only then can one, including sanyasi's during that time, make genuin progress in their spiritual life.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

He is also a member of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, in which Srila Krishna Ksetra Das (spiritual name given to him by Srila Prabhupada) acts as an initiating spiritual master, or guru. {...} Now he teaches at The Chinese University of Hong Kong.

 

 

[ksbh]

Too fallen is when you do one of the following (I'm sure there are more)-

 

1. Kill a brahmana

2. Eat cows flesh

3. Have sex with another man's wife.

[theist]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> He is also a member of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, in which Srila Krishna Ksetra Das (spiritual name given to him by Srila Prabhupada) acts as an initiating spiritual master, or guru. {...} Now he teaches at The Chinese University of Hong Kong.

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Or when "initiating guru" is a second parttime job.

[Svarupa]

 

Too fallen is when you do one of the following (I'm sure there are more)-

 

1. Kill a brahmana

2. Eat cows flesh

3. Have sex with another man's wife.

 

 

Actually you have just described the qualities of KALI-YUGA, if Lord Caitanya can save all the above, then wouldn't that prove He is truly the deliver of the most fallen?

 

I believe no-one is too fallen because ultimately everyone is a devotee. Only a fool would say (as one so called sanyasi said recently in a class in Melbourne) "one can never attain the causeless mercy of LORD CAITANYA because they are too fallen because of exploitation" To the contrary, such fallen sruggling devotees are qualified for Lord Caitanya's mercy more than what you can ever imagine.

 

Narottama dasa Thakura prays to Lord Caitanya, "My dear Lord, please be merciful to me, because who can be more merciful than Your Lordship within these three worlds?

[Svarupa]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

Or when "initiating guru" is a second parttime job.

 

What are you guys talking about?

[ksbh]

I agree, prabhu. Lord Caitanya's mercy is incomparable. I was told that the qualification to get His mercy is to be among the most fallen

 

 

Actually you have just described the qualities of KALI-YUGA, if Lord Caitanya can save all the above, then wouldn't that prove He is truly the deliver of the most fallen?

 

I believe no-one is too fallen because ultimately everyone is a devotee. Only a fool would say (as one so called sanyasi said recently in a class in Melbourne) "one can never attain the causeless mercy of LORD CAITANYA because they are too fallen because of exploitation" To the contrary, such fallen sruggling devotees are qualified for Lord Caitanya's mercy more than what you can ever imagine.

 

Narottama dasa Thakura prays to Lord Caitanya, "My dear Lord, please be merciful to me, because who can be more merciful than Your Lordship within these three worlds?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I agree, prabhu. Lord Caitanya's mercy is incomparable. I was told that the qualification to get His mercy is to be among the most fallen

 

This is true, and also it is true that Lord Nityananda's mercy is even *greater* than the mercy of Sri Chaitanya.

 

Dayal Nitai!!

[theist]

 

What are you guys talking about?

 

Svarupa,

 

I was speaking to an idea and not a person. JNdas followed a link provided in a post previous to his where it mentioned some initiating guru in Iskcon is now a professor at Hong Kong University. My thought is that while there is nothing wrong in being a professor at Hong Kong university I just would think taking his disciples back toGodhead would be a full time endeavor. Unless of course intiating guru in Iskcon is just an ecclesiastical formality to provide second initiation for brahmanas to perform Deity worship (which is how I think it should be) in which case the professorship would not be a problem. But I don't think that is how they frame it.

[Inedible]

 

Too fallen is when you do one of the following (I'm sure there are more)-

 

1. Kill a brahmana

2. Eat cows flesh

3. Have sex with another man's wife.

 

Burger King actually sells veggie burgers.

 

Are there a lot of Brahmanas around that it would be convenient to kill one?

 

Does having sex with someone's husband count or is it just wives?

 

 

http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/brahmana.htm

Brahmana

Also spelled brahmin or brahman ("possessor of Brahma"), highest ranking of the four varnas. The study and recitation of the sacred scriptures and scholarship is traditionally reserved for them.

Brahmanas act as advisors and ministers of ruling chiefs. Their traditional position is as priests, ministering both in temples and at domestic rites. The brahmana family priest (purohita) officiates at weddings, funerals, and other ceremonial occasions.

[Beggar]

 

Burger King actually sells veggie burgers.

 

Are there a lot of Brahmanas around that it would be convenient to kill one?

 

Does having sex with someone's husband count or is it just wives?

 

 

 

Sie sind mit dem Verspotten unserer Philosophie aufgeladen worden. Was müssen Sie für selbst sagen?

 

 

[Inedible]

Okay.

 

I don't understand German and I don't recognize the guy in the picture. Could you please spell it out for me? I know I'm being insulted for acting contrary just for the sake of being contrary and I'm sure this is a brilliant response ... but without some commentary it is just going too far over my head to mean anything.

[Beggar]

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<small>Dr. Paul Joseph Goebbels, leader of the NSDAP's propaganda machine, later the minister in charge of all Nazi Propaganda and Hitler's successor as the Chancellor of Germany.

 

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[Inedible]

Bummer. He looks like such a nice guy even if he was having a bad day when the picture was taken. I'd put him on TV, too. He looks like the kind of guy I'd invite over for coffee, but he is too good to actually show up. Let me go tell a Jewish friend or two that eating beef is right up there with the holocaust and I'll get back with you on the results.

 

Seriously. I would have figured him for a 1950s movie star.