Whether Devotees of ISKON are the best devotees

[ksbh]

150,000 Bhagavad Gitas! That is staggering! And 200,000 dollars back in those days was HUGE, it is very big money in todays times as well. Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet, prabhu. It is no small sacrifice you have made. It is a giant contribution.

 

 

I only distributed 150,000 Bhagavad-gitas and donated my heirship (200,000 dollar) to the GBC this is of course nothing and an impudence even to mention, sorry, you're so right.

[Kulapavana]

 

...Although, as you bring in anumana, evidence by hypothesis and brush aside Prabhupada's words - all over Europe, all the ISKCON gurus since 1977 one by one, fell down. At least 6000 ex-disciples left ISKCON. Austria, all ISKCON temples closed since 1998. No more Sankirtan vans with books on Europe's roads.

 

Most of these people did not leave simply because some gurus fell down. They left because they realised that they were sold a pack of hype and lies, including a big one: the guru-lie. I never believed the hype Iskcon was pumping out regarding the position, power, qualifications and supposedly transcendental nature of our gurus and our movement in general - I could read the shastra and think for myself about the nature of things around me.

 

The myth makers of Iskcon did the most damage, not the people who took advantage of these myths. They were merely scavengers and opportunists this world is full of.

[cbrahma]

 

Most of these people did not leave simply because some gurus fell down. They left because they realised that they were sold a pack of hype and lies, including a big one: the guru-lie. I never believed the hype Iskcon was pumping out regarding the position, power, qualifications and supposedly transcendental nature of our gurus and our movement in general - I could read the shastra and think for myself about the nature of things around me.

 

The myth makers of Iskcon did the most damage, not the people who took advantage of these myths. They were merely scavengers and opportunists this world is full of.

Yes but who propagated the myths? The ones who had the most to gain from them. The zonal gurus - the then GBC.

[Kulapavana]

 

I only distributed 150,000 Bhagavad-gitas and donated my heirship (200,000 dollar) to the GBC this is of course nothing and an impudence even to mention, sorry, you're so right.

 

Sometimes the greatest valour in battle comes from regular soldiers, not the mighty generals. It is their sacrifice that becomes the stuff of legends and catches attention of the Lord. Dandavats Suchandraji for the many years of great service. The Lord is always very generous to his servants. You still have the eagerness for devotional service - that is a lot more valuable then people think.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes but who propagated the myths? The ones who had the most to gain from them. The zonal gurus - the then GBC.

 

The myth making started very, very early. Much earlier then the zonal gurus. There was an entire cottage industry of myth making in Iskcon. The first myths were made up in relation to Prabhupada - once the myth was there, it was transfered to the people who surrounded Prabhupada, and who became his representatives, and later his successors.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

When you wish upon a star....

 

You better believe it!! Keep the faith!

 

Just be careful about that for which you wish!

[cbrahma]

 

All these misrepresentations of our philosophy were made by ISKCON's elite GBC leaders, who are trying to present themselves as the "ultimate managing authorities".

The errata started immediately after Srila Prabhupada's departure with the infamous uttama adhikary hoax, coupled with the zonal acarya system debacle. Even after an attempted correction of this initial contamination with the so called "guru reform" movement of the mid-eighties, there have been numerous re-adjustments to the GBC's philosophical speculations on how Srila Prabhupada wanted His disciples to fulfill his desires for mutual cooperation, for the sake of maintaining the preaching momentum that he so expertly orchestrated before his physical departure. Regardless of how many adjustments and alterations the GBC make, the intended results have not been forthcoming. The preaching spirit in North America, the birth place of ISKCON, is slowly but surely waning. Temples are closing as the full-time dedicated preachers leave or are absorbed into the bulging bureaucracy. This bureaucracy has replaced the local, once dynamic temple communities which were thriving during Srila Prabhupada's manifest lila. Presenting themselves collectively as the present Acarya, the GBC's conception of cooperation is that everyone should blindly obey them and not question. They do not understand that everyone, including them, should unquestioningly follow the actual present Founder/Acarya, Srila Prabhupada. They have proven that they don't have a clear idea of what Srila Prabhupada wanted, but they continue to beg for more time to try new variations on their original mistake... from Rocana dasa's Article "Cooperation- The Greatest Challenge" 1997

 

This was written 10 years ago and it applies even more today.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

150,000 Bhagavad Gitas! That is staggering! And 200,000 dollars back in those days was HUGE, it is very big money in todays times as well. Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet, prabhu. It is no small sacrifice you have made. It is a giant contribution.

 

Yeah, I guess this makes Suchandra-ji as qualified as the spider in Ram Lila.

 

"But what have you done for me lately?"

 

The irony I see is that those who most loudly denounce ISKCON seem to be those who are most out-of-touch with what/where ISKCON is *today*.

 

It's like saying New York City must be a really dangerous place because most of the news stories you see about NYC involve something bad happening to somebody.

 

If your perception of ISKCON today is limited to what you see on the web (both good and bad), you have a necessarily very limited view of ISKCON.

 

I can't say I'm intimately acquainted with all of ISKCON, but, when I attend functions like last weekend's Ratha Yatra in L.A., I can't help feeling that all is going according to Srila Prabhupada's divine plan.

 

Call me a tinker bell, if you like. It's an honor!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

This was written 10 years ago and it applies even more today.

 

No, it's total BS today!!

 

CD stores are closing down left and right--does that mean nobody is listening to music? Absolutely not! There are more venues at which to find/listen to new music than ever before. Now, though, the power is not as tightly concentrated in the hands of a few record executives.

 

It's the same thing with Krishna Consciousness. If ISKCON appears to be fading into the pages of history, that has no bearing on the vitality and relevance of Krishna Consciousness.

 

20 years ago, to distribute 150,000 Bhagavad Gitas, you had to hand them to people (and get a donation to cover the costs of priting). Today, you can distribute 150,000 Bhagavad Gitas in a month by posting a PDF to a web site (and the distribution costs are almost negligible).

 

The ostriches with their heads in the sand are the naysayers--*they* are the ones ignoring the glaring truth!!!

 

Brihad-Mridanga ki jai!!!

[cbrahma]

 

No, it's total BS today!!

 

CD stores are closing down left and right--does that mean nobody is listening to music? Absolutely not! There are more venues at which to find/listen to new music than ever before. Now, though, the power is not as tightly concentrated in the hands of a few record executives.

 

It's the same thing with Krishna Consciousness. If ISKCON appears to be fading into the pages of history, that has no bearing on the vitality and relevance of Krishna Consciousness.

 

20 years ago, to distribute 150,000 Bhagavad Gitas, you had to hand them to people (and get a donation to cover the costs of priting). Today, you can distribute 150,000 Bhagavad Gitas in a month by posting a PDF to a web site (and the distribution costs are almost negligible).

 

The ostriches with their heads in the sand are the naysayers--*they* are the ones ignoring the glaring truth!!!

 

Brihad-Mridanga ki jai!!!

The article is about ISKCON the institution not Krsna Consciousness in general.

[theist]

 

150,000 Bhagavad Gitas! That is staggering! And 200,000 dollars back in those days was HUGE, it is very big money in todays times as well. Please accept my humble obeisances at your feet, prabhu. It is no small sacrifice you have made. It is a giant contribution.

 

Yes but this is not how devotional service is measured by Krsna. To demand to know what service one has performed to qualify that person to speak on this topic or not is bad form ksbh. A person who washed pots for Prabhupada also has a right to his voice.

[Guruvani]

 

You're so right prabhu, simply on strength of limited observation who would ever dare to do such a thing? Although, as you bring in anumana, evidence by hypothesis and brush aside Prabhupada's words - all over Europe, all the ISKCON gurus since 1977 one by one, fell down. At least 6000 ex-disciples left ISKCON. Austria, all ISKCON temples closed since 1998. No more Sankirtan vans with books on Europe's roads. If you call plain facts, "discrediting", what you clearly do, one rather would suggest that a learned person like you means the discrediting of being appointed in 1980 by Tamal Krishna Goswami and Hansadutta prabhu who both declared to the assembled devotees including Jayadvaita Swami, that Srila Prabhupada had never desginated/appointed any diksha-gurus. This was at Nrsinghananda's hideout in Topanga California. Some of the others have admitted this too, no appointment/order by Prabhupada ever given, so where is your claim that there are any selected diksha-gurus after 1977, ordered by Prabhupada? And if the first ones were never ordered to function as diksha-gurus, how are any of the contemporary diksha-gurus ordered by Prabhupada?

Grasshopper, this is all the great plan of the Supreme Power.

Do not let these things eat away at your heart like a corrosive acid on shining gold.

 

Not a blade of grass moves without the will of the Supreme Lord.

 

This is the will of God almighty.

Surrender to it.

Embrace it like a tree-hugger environmentalist hugging a tree.

 

Do you think that anything can happen without the sanction of Krishna?

 

This is the plan of Krishna.

He knows better than we do.

 

What we see as terrible will eventually be seen as the great mercy of Krishna.

 

Release your grip on calculative conceptions.

 

Surrender to the inconceivable plan of the Supreme Absolute.

 

Don't hang on to the past like a mother monkey hangs on to her dead baby.

 

Embrace the infinite and all His wonder.

[cbrahma]

 

Grasshopper, this is all the great plan of the Supreme Power.

Do not let these things eat away at your heart like a corrosive acid on shining gold.

 

Not a blade of grass moves without the will of the Supreme Lord.

 

This is the will of God almighty.

Surrender to it.

Embrace it like a tree-hugger environmentalist hugging a tree.

 

Do you think that anything can happen without the sanction of Krishna?

 

This is the plan of Krishna.

He knows better than we do.

 

What we see as terrible will eventually be seen as the great mercy of Krishna.

 

Release your grip on calculative conceptions.

 

Surrender to the inconceivable plan of the Supreme Absolute.

 

Don't hang on to the past like a mother monkey hangs on to her dead baby.

 

Embrace the infinite and all His wonder.

How easy it is from the sidelines.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

How easy it is from the sidelines.

 

Yep. It's easy for Guruvani and it's easy for the naysayers such as yourself.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The article is about ISKCON the institution not Krsna Consciousness in general.

 

If you look back, this thread started as another rant by "dattaswami". It's been way off topic since reply number 3 or 4.

 

On these forums, folks usually only bring up the thread topic if they find their position has become untennable (sp?).

[Guruvani]

 

How easy it is from the sidelines.

Yep, the coaches are always on the sidelines.

Players can't coach the game.

That just wouldn't work.

[cbrahma]

 

Yep, the coaches are always on the sidelines.

Players can't coach the game.

That just wouldn't work.

More like Monday morning quarterbacking. After all the bodies are counted.

[cbrahma]

 

If you look back, this thread started as another rant by "dattaswami". It's been way off topic since reply number 3 or 4.

 

On these forums, folks usually only bring up the thread topic if they find their position has become untennable (sp?).

It went to the role of the GBC and the authenticity of the ISKCON gurus which is quite relevant to ISKCON and the thread topic.

[Guruvani]

 

How easy it is from the sidelines.

Well, my child, if you need to know I gave 8 years of my youth to the Hare Krishna movememt, distributed thousands upon thousands of books in places like Las Vegas airport, L.A. airport, the streets of L.A. and Chicago and collected tens of thousands of dollars for the temples.

 

I also was head cook in some Hare Krishna temples and a very popular cook at that.

I learned from some of ISKCON's best.

 

So, maybe I am on the sidelines now, but I have some vested interest in ISKCON my lad.

[cbrahma]

 

Well, my child, if you need to know I gave 8 years of my youth to the Hare Krishna movememt, distributed thousands upon thousands of books in places like Las Vegas airport, L.A. airport, the streets of L.A. and Chicago and collected tens of thousands of dollars for the temples.

 

I also was head cook in some Hare Krishna temples and a very popular cook at that.

I learned from some of ISKCON's best.

 

So, maybe I am on the sidelines now, but I have some vested interest in ISKCON my lad.

Credentials noted. The investment at this point, Maharaja, is at most nostalgia.

[Guruvani]

 

Credentials noted. The investment at this point, Maharaja, is at most nostalgia.

Only in your feeble mind.

 

I prefer to think of it as a nice stash in my spiritual bank account.

[suchandra]

 

Grasshopper, this is all the great plan of the Supreme Power.

Do not let these things eat away at your heart like a corrosive acid on shining gold.

 

Not a blade of grass moves without the will of the Supreme Lord.

 

This is the will of God almighty.

Surrender to it.

Embrace it like a tree-hugger environmentalist hugging a tree.

 

Do you think that anything can happen without the sanction of Krishna?

 

This is the plan of Krishna.

He knows better than we do.

 

What we see as terrible will eventually be seen as the great mercy of Krishna.

 

Release your grip on calculative conceptions.

 

Surrender to the inconceivable plan of the Supreme Absolute.

 

Don't hang on to the past like a mother monkey hangs on to her dead baby.

 

Embrace the infinite and all His wonder.

Well, thanks for your nice words of wisdom, today I ordered HH Satsvarupa das Goswami's latest book “Sanatorium” for further enlightenment.

While it is greatly appreciated what you have written as a sincere sentiment, there are mitigating circumstances which may need to be taken into consideration. You stated, "ISKCON gurus should arrange for living space and housing for their followers in quarters off of ISKCON property" :

 

"The proposal that the acharya - the diksha guru is subordinate to a governing body commission is to say that the acharya - the diksha guru must answer to majority vote of non-acharyas. Yet, there has never been any such system ever described or prescribed by the previous acharyas or the shastra. In fact, Srila Prabhupada specifically rejects this idea."

 

Message to the GBC: Get Out of the Guru Business!

 

BY: KSHAMABUDDHI DASA (ACBSP) 1975

 

Nov 28, USA (SUN) —

 

Since the passing of Srila Prabhupada and the dismantling of the ISKCON

ritvik system, the ISKCON GBC has taken the authority upon themselves

to oversee the regulating of diksha gurus in ISKCON. Though there is no

evidence that Srila Prabhupada ever endowed the GBC with the authority

to regulate, approve or disapprove gurus, the GBC has taken the

authority without authority from Srila Prabhupada or shastric

precedent.

 

Though, there is some direct evidence from direct disciples that Srila

Prabhupada did grant the GBC authority to appoint ritviks as needed,

since the GBC has rejected the ritvik system, this authority to appoint

ritviks does not transfer over to being authority to regulate, appoint

or reject who performs the function of diksha guru in ISKCON.

 

However, since the passing of Srila Prabhupada the GBC has assumed authority

over regulating diksha gurus in ISKCON and as such have overstepped

their authority and violated traditional Gaudiya etiquette in the

matter of guru and disciple relationships which are based upon faith,

trust and respect.

 

Since the ISKCON GBC has deemed it proper to reject the ritvik system and

promote so-called traditional parampara, then the first order of

business would be to completely take their hands out of guru-disciple

affairs and allow the free flow of faith and trust to take it’s

own course without bureaucratic intervention or interruption.

 

If the GBC insists to regulate and restrict guru-disciple affairs within

the devotee society, then they need to resort back to the ritvik

system. If the GBC wants to promote traditional parampara, then they

need to get their hands completely out of the guru business and stop

interfering with free choice and faith in the matter of accepting a

diksha guru.

 

As Srila Sridhar Maharaja suggested, if senior disciples of Srila

Prabhupada accept the responsibility of accepting disciples, then they

should arrange for living space and housing for their followers in

quarters off of ISKCON property. ISKCON temples should be neutral zones

where no one guru or disciple of Srila Prabhupada exerts influence to

dominate, monopolize or overtake the temple community and make the

temple a personal stronghold.

 

In order for ISKCON temples to be guru-neutral and free from prejudice and

discrimination either for or against any Vaishnava guru or disciple,

the matter of GBC favored, endorsed or approved gurus must be stopped

and ISKCON temples must become neutral zones where any guru and any

disciple is free to come and worship without fear of intimidation or

harassment by a popular guru who has a strong following in the

community.

 

Free choice must be allowed to predominate. If a person makes a bad choice

for a guru, then that should be on that person and that guru. The GBC

should neither be endorsing or regulating gurus within the ISKCON

community. It was never their right, their authority or their business

to do so. The GBC cannot present one authoritative statement from Srila

Prabhupada where he grants the GBC oversight over the matter of

guru-disciple affairs in the ISKCON community.

ISKCON temples must be guru neutral if in fact Srila Prabhupada has

been removed as the diksha guru in ISKCON. Otherwise, the GBC has

become a renegade bureaucracy acting without authority in violation of

the Vaishnava principles in the matter of guru-disciple relationships.

 

The message to the GBC from the ISKCON community is “Get out of the

guru business altogether”. Neither promote nor regulate the

guru-disciple affairs of the ISKCON community. Leave faith alone and do

your corporate managerial duties and stop assuming the authority of

God. The ISKCON GBC has no right or authority to interfere or meddle in

the business of guru-disciple affairs within the Vaishnava community.

The attempt to do so has resulted in massive disruption of the Krishna

consciousness movement.

[suchandra]

"Sanatorium is currently Sold Out", http://www.sdgonline.org/store.php

Must be a real bestseller!

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

The irony I see is that those who most loudly denounce ISKCON seem to be those who are most out-of-touch with what/where ISKCON is *today*.

Or they may be speaking from intimate knowledge of current ISKCON upper management, which isn't visible to the casual Ratha Yatra/Sunday feast visitors. It could be either way.

 

 

I can't say I'm intimately acquainted with all of ISKCON, but, when I attend functions like last weekend's Ratha Yatra in L.A., I can't help feeling that all is going according to Srila Prabhupada's divine plan.

The Ratha Yatra is probably going according to Srila Prabhupada's divine plan. ISKCON on the other hand is highly debatable.

 

There are different layers of ISKCON, and at different layers you will find different levels of sincerity. Some layers are going according to Srila Prabhupada's plan, other layers are deviated from his plan.

[cbrahma]

 

Only in your feeble mind.

 

I prefer to think of it as a nice stash in my spiritual bank account.

With that attitude, I wonder.