Whether Devotees of ISKON are the best devotees

[cbrahma]

 

Prabhu ... Nobody appoints Diksa gurus.

Uhh...the GBC does.

[cbrahma]

 

The myth making started very, very early. Much earlier then the zonal gurus. There was an entire cottage industry of myth making in Iskcon. The first myths were made up in relation to Prabhupada - once the myth was there, it was transfered to the people who surrounded Prabhupada, and who became his representatives, and later his successors.

A vague mysterious conspiracy of what myths perpetrated by what dark infiltrators?

[Kulapavana]

 

A vague mysterious conspiracy of what myths perpetrated by what dark infiltrators?

 

Not really. Most of these myths were started in good faith, often by some simplistic and naive devotees who thought that "we should think like that". Sometimes even Srila Prabhupada himself would encourage certain sentiments that later led to myth making by his disciples. For example, Srila Prabhupada has greatly enhanced the guru worship as compared to the GM or standard Gaudiya tradition. Mangala-arati became essentially a guru worship function, and a daily guru-puja was added, performed in front of the Deities. Later on gurus became walking gods who were all-powerful, all-knowing, above the laws of the universe, whose actions were incomprehensible to us mortals, and whose activities were not subject to any "mundane" evaluation.

[Guruvani]

 

Not really. Most of these myths were started in good faith, often by some simplistic and naive devotees who thought that "we should think like that". Sometimes even Srila Prabhupada himself would encourage certain sentiments that later led to myth making by his disciples. For example, Srila Prabhupada has greatly enhanced the guru worship as compared to the GM or standard Gaudiya tradition. Mangala-arati became essentially a guru worship function, and a daily guru-puja was added, performed in front of the Deities. Later on gurus became walking gods who were all-powerful, all-knowing, above the laws of the universe, whose actions were incomprehensible to us mortals, and whose activities were not subject to any "mundane" evaluation.

 

 

Actually, Srila Vishvanatha Chakrativarti Thakur had something to do with "enhancing the worship" of the guru.

 

He wrote in his prayers that the spiritual master is "sakshad hari" - directly Krishna.

 

The Gaudiya siddhanta is that the spiritual master is a direct manifestation of Lord Krishna.

 

If devotees are to actually give proper respect to the spiritual master then he has to be worshiped as good as God.

 

Krishna himself says "know the acharya to be my very self".

 

Maybe in bygone eras there wasn't huge temples full of devotees doing lavish guru puja, but we can know for sure than many devotees even if in just a small way were worshiping their guru daily at least in a simple way.

 

ISKCON did everything on a grand scale.

ISKCON guru pujas for Srila Prabhupada were just large and loud versions of what many Vaishnavas and Hindus do daily in their homes and temples.

[DCD]

 

Whether Devotees of ISKON are the best devotees

 

Those devotees are really the best cream because they have realized the concept of human incarnation which is <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. They are not much worried about the energetic forms like Narayana which are meaningful only with respect to the souls of the upper world. But from another angle they are in the lowest state. The practical aspect of worship is service, which alone has the divine fruit. The service requires a living being and not inert object. The living being can only receive the service rendered by you. These devotees are serving the idols and photos of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> which are inert. These idols and photos serve the purpose of development of theoretical devotion in yourself which is related to mind. But mere theoretical devotion without practical aspect is useless. The theoretical devotion should result in the practical devotion and the fruit is always associated with the practical devotion only. The knowledge and devotion are like the degree and the appointment order achieved by your self. But both these cannot get you the salary unless you work in the job. The salary is given at the end of the month for the work you have done in that month.

The salary is not given to your degree or to the appointment order. The degree and the order help you to procure the work. The water and fertilizer help the plant to grow and give the fruit. The fruit is associated to the plant directly and not to the water or fertilizer. Thus, knowledge (Jnana Yoga) and devotion (Bhakti Yoga) help the achievement of the state of service (Karma Yoga). Only Karma (Work) can get the fruit directly. These devotees are not serving the present human incarnation and therefore all their service done to the statues or photos becomes waste.

Some undeserving people behind the statues or photos are benefited by such service. You can worship the devotees and preachers of this cult and in such case <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is more pleased. The Advaitin is wrong in extending the concept of human incarnation to every human being. In this angle the Iskcon devotee is better than Advaitin because such devotee has confined this concept to a specific human being like <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>. But when the concept of service to God comes, the Advaitin looks better than that devotee. The Advaitin is serving himself assuming that he is God. At least the living being (Advaitin himself) is served, which really receives the service.

Lord Krishna Himself stated that He will come down whenever it is necessary (Yadayadahi….Gita). In such case, why these devotees are confining to the past <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> only and why they are not searching for the present human incarnation? Do they accept Rama also as another incarnation of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> or not? They accept Rama as another human incarnation. It means more than one human incarnation of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> is accepted. Then, why not accept some other human incarnations especially when <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> told that He will come again and again whenever required? In Gita, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> told that He should be worshipped. Since Krishna was preaching Gita to Arjuna, for Arjuna, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> was the human incarnation of that time. For other human beings belonging to other generations, <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> means the human incarnation that is present in each generation.

Excerpt From Srimad Bhagavatam Translated by Srila Prabhupada original version:

 

 

 

Explanation of Devotional Service by Lord Kapila

 

Devahuti inquired: My dear Lord, You have already very scientifically described the symptoms of the total material nature and the characteristics of the spirit according to the Sankhyasystem of philosophy. Now I shall request You to explain the path of devotional service, which is the ultimate end of all philosophical systems.Devahuti continued: My dear Lord, please also describe in detail, both for me and for people in general, the continual process of birth and death, for by hearing of such calamities we may become detached from the activities of this material world.

Please also describe eternal time, which is a representation of Your form and by whose influence people in general engage in the performance of pious activities.

 

My dear Lord, You are just like the sun, for You illuminate the darkness of the conditional life of the living entities. Because their eyes of knowledge are not open, they are sleeping eternally in that darkness without Your shelter, and therefore they are falsely engaged by the actions and reactions of their material activities, and they appear to be very fatigued.

 

Sri Maitreya said: O best amongst the Kurus, the great sage Kapila, moved by great compassion and pleased by the words of His glorious mother, spoke as follows.

 

Lord Kapila, the Personality of Godhead, replied: O noble lady, there are multifarious paths of devotional service in terms of the different qualities of the executor.

 

Devotional service executed by a person who is envious, proud, violent and angry, and who is a separatist, is considered to be in the mode of darkness.

The worship of Deities in the temple by a separatist, with a motive for material enjoyment, fame and opulence, is devotion in the mode of passion.

When a devotee worships the Supreme Personality of Godhead and offers the results of his activities in order to free himself from the inebrieties of fruitive activities, his devotion is in the mode of goodness.

 

A pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation--salokya, sarsti, samipya, sarupya or ekatva--even though they are offered by the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

By attaining the highest platform of devotional service, as I have explained, one can overcome the influence of the three modes of material nature and be situated in the transcendental stage, as is the Lord.

 

The manifestation of unadulterated devotional service is exhibited when one's mind is at once attracted to hearing the transcendental name and qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is residing in everyone's heart. Just as the water of the Ganges flows naturally down towards the ocean, such devotional ecstasy, uninterrupted by any material condition, flows towards the Supreme Lord.

 

A devotee must execute his prescribed duties, which are glorious, without material profit. Without excessive violence, one should regularly perform one's devotional activities.

 

The devotee should regularly see My statues in the temple, touch My lotus feet and offer worshipable paraphernalia and prayer. He should see in the spirit of renunciation, from the mode of goodness, and see every living entity as spiritual.

 

The pure devotee should execute devotional service by giving the greatest respect to the spiritual master and the acaryas. He should be compassionate to the poor and make friendship with persons who are his equals, but all his activities should be executed under regulation and with control of the senses.

 

A devotee should always try to hear about spiritual matters and should always utilize his time in chanting the holy name of the Lord. His behavior should always be straightforward and simple, and although he is not envious but friendly to everyone, he should avoid the company of persons who are not spiritually advanced.

 

when one is fully qualified with all these transcendental attributes and his consciousness is thus completely purified, he is immediately attracted simply by hearing My name or hearing of My transcendental quality.

As the chariot of air carries an aroma from its source and immediately catches the sense of smell, similarly, one who constantly engages in devotional service, in Krsna consciousness, can catch the Supreme Soul, who is equally present everywhere.

 

I am present in every living entity as the Supersoul. If someone neglects or disregards that Supersoul everywhere and engages himself in the worship of the Deity in the temple, that is simply imitation.

 

One who worships the Deity of Godhead in the temples but does not know that the Supreme Lord, as Paramatma, is situated in every living entity's heart, must be in ignorance and is compared to one who offers oblations into ashes.

 

One who offers Me respect but is envious of the bodies of others and is therefore a separatist never attains peace of mind, because of his inimical behavior towards other living entities.

 

My dear Mother, even if he worships with proper rituals and paraphernalia, a person who is ignorant of My presence in all living entities never pleases Me by the worship of My Deities in the temple.

 

Performing his prescribed duties, one should worship the Deity of the Supreme Personality of Godhead until one realizes My presence in his own heart and in the hearts of other living entities as well.

 

As the blazing fire of death, I cause great fear to whoever makes the least discrimination between himself and other living entities because of a differential outlook.

 

Therefore, through charitable gifts and attention, as well as through friendly behavior and by viewing all to be alike, one should propitiate Me, who abide in all creatures as their very Self.

 

Living entities are superior to inanimate objects, O blessed mother, and among them, living entities who display life symptoms are better. Animals with developed consciousness are better than them, and better still are those who have developed sense perception.

 

Among the living entities who have developed sense perception, those who have developed the sense of taste are better than those who have developed only the sense of touch. Better than them are those who have developed the sense of smell, and better still are those who have developed the sense of hearing.

 

Better than those living entities who can perceive sound are those who can distinguish between one form and another. Better than them are those who have developed upper and lower sets of teeth, and better still are those who have many legs. Better than them are the quadrupeds, and better still are the human beings.

 

Among human beings, the society which is divided according to quality and work is best, and in that society, the intelligent men, who are designated as brahmanas, are best. Among the brahmanas, one who has studied the Vedas is the best, and among the brahmanas who have studied the Vedas, one who knows the actual purport of Veda is the best.

 

Better than the brahmana who knows the purpose of the Vedas is he who can dissipate all doubts, and better than him is one who strictly follows the brahminical principles. Better than him is one who is liberated from all material contamination, and better than him is a pure devotee, who executes devotional service without expectation of reward.

 

Therefore I do not find a greater person than he who has no interest outside of Mine and who therefore engages and dedicates all his activities and all his life--everything--unto Me without cessation.

 

Such a perfect devotee offers respects to every living entity because he is under the firm conviction that the Supreme Personality of Godhead has entered the body of every living entity as the Supersoul, or controller.

 

My dear mother, O daughter of Manu, a devotee who applies the science of devotional service and mystic yoga in this way can achieve the abode of the Supreme Person simply by that devotional service.

 

This purusa whom the individual soul must approach is the eternal form of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as Brahman and Paramatma. He is the transcendental chief personality, and His activities are all spiritual.

 

The time factor, who causes the transformation of the various material manifestations, is another feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Anyone who does not know that time is the same Supreme Personality is afraid of the time factor.

 

Lord Visnu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is the enjoyer of all sacrifices, is the time factor and the master of all masters. He enters everyone's heart, He is the support of everyone, and He causes every being to be annihilated by another.

 

No one is dear to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, nor is anyone His enemy or friend. But He gives inspiration to those who have not forgotten Him and destroys those who have.

 

Out of fear of the Supreme Personality of Godhead the wind blows, out of fear of Him the sun shines, out of fear of Him the rain pours forth showers, and out of fear of Him the host of heavenly bodies shed their luster.

 

Out of fear of the Supreme Personality of Godhead the trees, creepers, herbs and seasonal plants and flowers blossom and fructify, each in its own season.

 

Out of fear of the Supreme Personality of Godhead the rivers flow, and the ocean never overflows. Out of fear of Him only does fire burn and does the earth, with its mountains, not sink in the water of the universe.

 

Subject to the control of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the sky allows outer space to accommodate all the various planets, which hold innumerable living entities. The total universal body expands with its seven coverings under His supreme control.

 

Out of fear of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the directing demigods in charge of the modes of material nature carry out the functions of creation, maintenance and destruction; everything animate and inanimate within this material world is under their control.

 

 

The eternal time factor has no beginning and no end. It is the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the maker of the criminal world. It brings about the end of the phenomenal world, it carries on the work of creation by bringing one individual into existence from another, and likewise it dissolves the universe by destroying even the lord of death, Yamaraja.

[Kulapavana]

 

Actually, Srila Vishvanatha Chakrativarti Thakur had something to do with "enhancing the worship" of the guru.

 

He wrote in his prayers that the spiritual master is "sakshad hari" - directly Krishna.

 

The Gaudiya siddhanta is that the spiritual master is a direct manifestation of Lord Krishna.

 

If devotees are to actually give proper respect to the spiritual master then he has to be worshiped as good as God.

 

One could also say that the inner sentiments of a disciple should not be intitutionalized and transformed into grand rituals.

 

 

In Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.147) Srila Sanatan Goswami quotes Sammohana- tantra: <CENTER>gopayed devatam istam gopayed gurum atmanah

gopayec ca nijam mantram gopayen nija-malikam</CENTER>

 

 

One should hide one's ista-deva, one should hide one's guru, one should hide one's mantra, and one should hide one's japa-mala.

 

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

One could also say that the inner sentiments of a disciple should not be intitutionalized and transformed into grand rituals.

 

One could say that, but one would be indirectly criticizing Srila Prabhupada in doing so, as Srila Prabhupada authorized and approved the daily guru pujas in ISKCON.

 

But, if one had a guru like Harikesha das, then I could see why one wouldn't feel very inspired to perform daily worship of his guru.

 

But, if one had a guru who was a shaktyavesha avatar one might be more inspired to perform daily guru puja.

 

Actually, in the Prabhupada era, ISKCON was more like a big family of spiritual brothers and sisters.

To reduce ISKCON down to "an institution" is to deny the fraternity and brotherhood that was very prominent in the Prabhupada era.

[Kulapavana]

 

One could say that, but one would be indirectly criticizing Srila Prabhupada in doing so, as Srila Prabhupada authorized and approved the daily guru pujas in ISKCON.

 

It is not a criticism. It is just an attempt to analyze the roots of certain myths that pervade our society.

 

Many devotees felt like they were cheated because they were sold myths that evaporated in front of their eyes. Guru tattva in our tradition is far more complex than the myths they were fed in Iskcon.

 

Myth making is not just Iskcon's problem. One could say for example that when Narayana Maharaja is stressing the issue of guru's omniscience he is in fact also creating a myth. While we could argue that his words are true in some very, very narrow sense, this is much more of a myth (however useful for a disciple) than a real and objective fact.

 

Was the "fall from Vaikuntha" story Prabhupada told his disciples not a myth? Sometimes myths are useful. At least for a time being.

[Guruvani]

 

In Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.147) Srila Sanatan Goswami quotes Sammohana- tantra: <center>gopayed devatam istam gopayed gurum atmanah

gopayec ca nijam mantram gopayen nija-malikam</center>

 

 

One should hide one's ista-deva, one should hide one's guru, one should hide one's mantra, and one should hide one's japa-mala.

 

 

 

Yeah, Yeah.

 

That is the slogan of the

siddha pranali

camp that Madhavananda das popularized.

 

However, it would take a proper acharya to properly translate and comment on this verse.

 

 

The verse would have to be seen in context as it appears in the book with preceding and subsequent verses.

 

 

To take a single controversial verse as that and isolate it from the body of the book could just be a cheap-shot.

 

 

It takes a realized acharya to teach the meanings of the verse.

 

 

Amatuer neophytes that have managed to learn a little Sanskrit are not at all fit to translate shastra or explain it's meaning.

 

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

To take a single controversial verse as that and isolate it from the body of the book could just be a cheap-shot.

 

just like taking the saksad hari quote out of the context can be a cheap shot or worse (it often was invoked to justify very questionable practices of the bogus guru crowd).

[Guruvani]

 

Was the "fall from Vaikuntha" story Prabhupada told his disciples not a myth? Sometimes myths are useful. At least for a time being.

It is not a myth at all.

It is an allegory.

The conditioned souls have fallen from the Vaikuntha atmosphere - not a Vaikuntha planet.

 

The soul is actually existing in the Vaikuntha atmosphere, yet is identifying with matter.

 

The fall from Vaikuntha is not a myth.

The fall of parshadas like gopis and cowherd boys is a myth and a misconception.

[Guruvani]

 

just like taking the saksad hari quote out of the context can be a cheap shot or worse (it often was invoked to justify very questionable practices of the bogus guru crowd).

not the same.

Self-realized acharyas have translated and commented on that verse in English language for us to understand.

 

Out of context?

 

What a laugh!

 

The entire song is about glorification and worship of the spiritual master.

Each verse ends with "vande guroh sri caranaravindam".

 

As best I know it was Srila Bhaktivinode who established the song as standard morning prayers and was also part of the Gaudiya Matha morning program.

 

Those who say that Gaudiya Matha didn't do daily guru puja are wrong because the morning program consisted of Mangal aratrika and singing Sri Gurvastakam daily.

[ksbh]

But for the 'notalgic achievements' & sacrifices of folks like Guruvani pr, guys like you and I would have no clue about Krishna Consciousness.

 

Rather than belittle another devotees achivements so you can continue your fault finding crap, you should develop a little gratitude. It'll help you make progress, no seriously it will!

 

 

Credentials noted. The investment at this point, Maharaja, is at most nostalgia.

[Kulapavana]

 

It is not a myth at all.

It is an allegory.

The conditioned souls have fallen from the Vaikuntha atmosphere - not a Vaikuntha planet.

 

The soul is actually existing in the Vaikuntha atmosphere, yet is identifying with matter.

 

The fall from Vaikuntha is not a myth.

The fall of parshadas like gopis and cowherd boys is a myth and a misconception.

 

Ok. so it's an allegory that gave rise to a myth

 

Same thing with the guru issue. Allegories that were later transformed into myths.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

It is not a criticism. It is just an attempt to analyze the roots of certain myths that pervade our society.

This is faulty analysis. Srila Prabhupada did not create a myth when he instituted daily worship of himself in the form of guru puja. Worshipping the lotus feet of a pure devotee is the most potent form of devotional service, and Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu confirms this when he stated that "taking dust from the feet of a devotee, taking water that has washed the devotees feet, and taking mahaprasadam eaten by a pure devotee" are the three most potent forms of devotional service.

 

Srila Prabhupada, being a pure devotee of the Lord, was not establishing a myth when he told disciples to worship his lotus feet - just as Lord Krishna did not establish a myth when he told everyone to surrender unto His own lotus feet.

 

The surrender to the lotus feet of the Lord and the pure devotees is an established fact in the authorized process of devotional service given by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

 

So what is the myth you are complaining about? The real myth was that after Srila Prabhupada's departure unqualified conditioned souls pretended to be pure devotees. And that myth has nothing to do with Srila Prabhupada.

 

I personally see it as offensive to try and pass off this myth as Srila Prabhupada's false creation. But then that is just my opinion.

[Kulapavana]

 

So what is the myth you are complaining about? The real myth was that after Srila Prabhupada's departure unqualified conditioned souls pretended to be pure devotees. And that myth has nothing to do with Srila Prabhupada.

 

Iskcon presented all of it's gurus as pure devotees on the sakshad hari level and extended to them all forms of respect and honor that Prabhupada received. Some people see nothing wrong with that, because when Prabhupada is speaking of gurus he is almost always applying the highest standard and makes no distinction between "lesser" and "greater" gurus. What's good for the goose is good for the gander is the usual approach.

 

In some quarters of our society there is still belief that everything the guru says is absolute, that gurus cant make mistakes or errors, that they must be uttama adhikaris to be gurus, that they all descend from Vaikuntha, that a real guru is omniscient, etc. These are all myths in my opinion - there is a grain of truth in them, but mostly they are fiction - that is a typical definition of a myth. At one time or another these were myths oficially propagated in Iskcon. I remember them well.

[Bhakta Devarsi]

The only reason why neophytes will have a muddied mind, and make the type of statements that Kulapavana makes is because they have a very active and fertile intellect, and thus look out at what all the cheaters did with Srila Prabhupada's perfect instructions and decide,

 

"well, if all those instructions were so easily taken advantage of, and manipulated, and those who did so were thus highly enabled to cheat thousands of people, perhaps I can adjust the concept of spiritual sadhana in a way where no one can abuse it."

 

Thus they speak of going to the root of the problem, the cause, and learning from the "mistakes".

 

It is actually a laudable sentiment, because such neophytes do not like to see people suffer, and seek to prevent such suffering.

 

Unfortunately they condemn themselves to failure in their quest for amelioration of the suffering of those who would be cheated, because their speculative tactic must ultimately reject most of what the Acharya "instituted" as sadhana.

 

Therefore, they will become the leader of their own institution, the sun where other neophytes orbit around, and learn of Vaisnavism. And in the beginning, he will have "rooted out" so many of the practices which were abused, and instituted practices that are more natural or agreeable to the mindset of those around him. In order not to disturb their minds you see.

 

But mark my words, this will end in disaster. At some point or another.

 

Under the aegis of adjusting for time place and circumstance, he will have watered down the principled approach as offered by the most recent empowered Acharya.

 

The Guru's orders are perfect. It is the NON-EXECUTION of such which is THE ROOT AND CAUSE of all failure.

 

To say that Krsna did not understand the western mind, and gave the Acharya inspiration to present sadhana which was contraindicated to the target populace is LUDICROUS.

 

More in line with reality is that ANY sadhana can be improperly executed by materially motivated individuals, and a false shadow institution be erected to cheat those looking for it.

 

And the next phase these materialists hope for is that the other neophytes who have similar mental acuity will decide to throw away the original form of instructions from the acharya and speculate new ones into existence.

 

They don't mind a little friendly neophyte competition.

 

They certainly are counting on it, and praying that the Acharya's original plan becomes dust in the wind.

 

Get it?

 

I pray.

 

Hare Krsna.

[Guruvani]

 

Iskcon presented all of it's gurus as pure devotees on the sakshad hari level and extended to them all forms of respect and honor that Prabhupada received.

 

Or, was that recognition and regard something that ambitious new devotees offered unto their gurus?

 

I don't know if there was any official ISKCON policy that the initiating gurus were to all be considered on the same level as Srila Prabhupada.

 

If ISKCON is going to have a multitude of gurus, then ISKCON is also going to have to accomodate the sentiments of the disciples of these ISKCON gurus.

 

IF ISKCON had a policy that "your guru is third class, you cannot worship him as we worship Srila Prabhupada", then they would be in effect trashing their own efforts to implement the GBC sanctioned guru system.

 

How can you have a successor guru system under the premise that all the successors are third class gurus?

 

Such a concept is self-defeating.

[Beggar]

When the "Zonal Acarya's" went to Srila Sridhar Maharaja they explained to him about Srila Prabhupada's daily guru puja. He was quite suprised by this and told them that generally guru puja is done once a year on the appearance day of the guru or when the guru is returning and a long absence. Then he harmonized what Prabhupada had done by explaining Prabhupada's unique exalted position in ISKCON. He then told them that they should not accept guru puja in the temples that Prabhupada established nor should it be performed in front of their godbrothers. He also recommended to them that they should follow the traditional system of guru puja as I explained above. On Srila Prabhupada's order they went to Srila Sridhar Maharaja for advice or siksa. This means that they were essentially accepting him as siksa guru. Obviously they disobeyed his instructions. They also tried to hide his siksa from their godbrothers for they wanted to keep the ISKCON myth that "all of Prabhupada's godbrothers are demons and mayavadis" in their back pocket for future use.

[DCD]

 

It is not a myth at all.

It is an allegory.

The conditioned souls have fallen from the Vaikuntha atmosphere - not a Vaikuntha planet.

 

The soul is actually existing in the Vaikuntha atmosphere, yet is identifying with matter.

 

The fall from Vaikuntha is not a myth.

The fall of parshadas like gopis and cowherd boys is a myth and a misconception.

The soul never falldown from Vaikhuta or Goloka, that means in the spiritual world there are not greed, anger, lust. etc.

 

But The spiritual soul has free will, The spiritual soul comes to the material world by curiosity, He doesn't know the material world, the jiva is not omniscient. There is a pastime between Lord Krsna and Narada Muni. Narada Muni asked to the Lord what is maya?, and he replied: The only way to know my maya is testing it. (this is the pastime when lord Krsna asked to Narada muni to bring him a cup of water from a lake...)

 

When the jiva fall down from the brahmajyoti is when has passed a total dissolution and if the soul didnd't get liberated in that creation is transfered to that impersonal brahman, and then again "fall down" (is transfered) in the next creation to continue with his life, until he revive his eternal relationship with the Lord and get transfered to his abode or original espiritual position in a vaikhunta planet or directly to goloka. For that reason impersonalist who wants to reach the brahmajyoti fall down again, because there is no activities there.

[Kulapavana]

 

The Guru's orders are perfect. It is the NON-EXECUTION of such which is THE ROOT AND CAUSE of all failure.

 

To say that Krsna did not understand the western mind, and gave the Acharya inspiration to present sadhana which was contraindicated to the target populace is LUDICROUS.

 

These are nice sentiments for a disciple to have, but that is just about all it is to them, at least IMO.

 

First we get a perfect order to chant 64 rounds after initiation, then we get another perfect order to chant 16 after that first perfect order proved to be impractical.

 

Some orders take time to fructify and prove their value or lack thereof. Lets take sannyasa policies for example. Towards the end of his manifest lila Srila Prabhupada radically changed his attitude towards awarding sannyasa to Westerners and emphatically declared: "No more sannyasa."

 

What is the immutable core order of the guru, to which ALL other orders are subservient? To be Krsna conscious and to spread KC to others? That is indeed the perfect order.

[Guruvani]

If we accept the Gaudiya siddhanta and the conclusions of shastra that the spiritual master is "as good as Krishna" by being sakshad hari (directly a manifestation of Krishna), then what could be the harm in worshiping the guru daily?

 

Should the jagat guru be treated like some small town guru setting in his Matha in India living off of the collection box in the temple room?

 

If the disciples want to worship the guru daily then they certainly have that right if not the duty.

 

The fact is that according to the Gaudiya siddhanta the siksha and diksha gurus are both equal manifestations of Hari.

 

How could a devotee or disciple fail to worship the immediate manifestation of Hari that has come to deliver him?

 

To me, it just seems awfully contradictory to say that the guru is "sakshat Hari" and then say that we shoudn't worship him daily just as we worship the Lord.

 

Failing to worship "sakshat Hari" fully can only result in offenses.

(my opinion)

[Kulapavana]

 

If ISKCON is going to have a multitude of gurus, then ISKCON is also going to have to accomodate the sentiments of the disciples of these ISKCON gurus.

 

the sentiments which lead to undesirable consequences should be avoided as they will ultimately endanger the core of Iskcon's mission. Remember the 11 vyasasans in Mayapur? What a joke that was. What was to be next? a dozen or so guru murtis on the altars in our temples? some TKG disciples already worship his murti at home on their altars - yes, you can buy them even now. what is it going to be in 100 years?

 

unless there is some clear direction on such issues I'm afraid the movement will remain in the state of confusion.

[Guruvani]

 

the sentiments which lead to undesirable consequences should be avoided as they will ultimately endanger the core of Iskcon's mission. Remember the 11 vyasasans in Mayapur? What a joke that was. What was to be next? a dozen or so guru murtis on the altars in our temples? some TKG disciples already worship his murti at home on their altars - yes, you can buy them even now. what is it going to be in 100 years?

 

unless there is some clear direction on such issues I'm afraid the movement will remain in the state of confusion.

How can their be distinction?

Why is my shakshat hari better than the next generation's sakshat hari?

 

The diksha guru is a direct manifestation of Krishna.

Sakshad hari is even more than shaktyavesha - indirect manifestation.

 

Sakshad Hari is a direct manifestation of Krishna.

 

How can a disciple accept a diksha guru unless he sees him as sakshat hari?

 

How can there be different grades of sakshat hari?

 

Sakshat hari is sakshat hari..... they are both equal.

 

One sakshat hari cannot be a third class version of sakshat hari.

There is no such thing.

 

Anyway, that is why I favor the ritvik idea, so that imitation sakshat haris don't end up destroying the crediblity of the Gaudiya parampara.

 

There is sakshat hari and then there are imitators.

 

The rivik system would have kept out the imitator sakshat haris.

[Kulapavana]

 

How can their be distinction?

Why is my shakshat hari better than the next generation's sakshat hari?

 

 

remember our discussion on what PRECISELY does this phrase sakshad hari means? most devotees have a very limited understanding here and that is part of the problem. if we just emphasize one side of this understanding we are bound to create problems.

 

UNDENIABLY our society has problems related to the guru issue. The only question is: how to solve them?

 

We are often seen as a sect precisely because of the elaborate guru worship and repeated abuses of power by people placed in that category.

 

There is a very good reason why traditionally Gaudiya Vaishnavas worship guru's shoes on their altars, not guru murtis, or why there is no daily guru pujas in most GV institutions. Those who really want to worship their guru will still find plenty of facility to do that in every activity throughout their day.