Whether Devotees of ISKON are the best devotees

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

There is a very good reason why traditionally Gaudiya Vaishnavas worship guru's shoes on their altars, not guru murtis

The reason has nothing to do with the guru's murtis being less or not appropriate. The guru's shoes are worshipped because his lotus feet physically touched those shoes, and they become his direct representation. There is no difference between keeping a guru's shoes on the altar and keeping his murti.

 

The practicality of an individual babaji, living alone in Vrindavan 500 years ago, making a single murti of his guru to worship on his altar with correct likeness is why it isn't done. It is much simpler to accept the shoes of the guru than to attempt an impossible feat like making a deity of him.

 

It is offensive to make a distinction between a siddha guru's deity and the guru's shoes. They are both on the absolute platform and equally worshipable.

 

Most gaudiya vaishnava samadhis contain a tiny deity of the bhakta that looks like a shiva linga. It is bathed, dressed and marked with tilak every day. Why a deity isn't made? Because it can't be done. Making an accurate deity of a person is both expensive and extremely difficult even today. And it certainly could not have been done by renounced mendicants living in remote places like Vrindavan hundreds of years ago.

[Guruvani]

 

remember our discussion on what PRECISELY does this phrase sakshad hari means? most devotees have a very limited understanding here and that is part of the problem. if we just emphasize one side of this understanding we are bound to create problems.

 

UNDENIABLY our society has problems related to the guru issue. The only question is: how to solve them?

 

We are often seen as a sect precisely because of the elaborate guru worship and repeated abuses of power by people placed in that category.

 

There is a very good reason why traditionally Gaudiya Vaishnavas worship guru's shoes on their altars, not guru murtis, or why there is no daily guru pujas in most GV institutions. Those who really want to worship their guru will still find plenty of facility to do that in every activity throughout their day.

then go join your buddies at the siddha-pranali camp.

 

you got banned here before for your criticism of Srila Prabhupada.

As far as I am concerned they can ban you again.

 

You obvioulsy are dabbling in the siddha pranali propaganda and then coming to criticise Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON because it is not a "traditional" cult.

 

Srila Prabhupada referred to "the cult of Sri Chaitanya" many, many times.

 

The Gaudiya sampradaya is a cult.

It can't become mainstream, will never become mainstream and should never become mainstream.

 

ISKCON doens't have to change it's ways and become just another mainstream religion.

 

Go hang out with the siddha pranali gang where you get all this crap.

There aren't any siddha pranali types on this forum anymore that I know of.

[DCD]

Used Srila Prabhupada or other previous acaryas to Worship the murti of his spiritual masters?

 

I heard that to follow the instructions of your spiritual master and make them your life and soul is to worship him.

[Kulapavana]

 

The Gaudiya sampradaya is a cult.

It can't become mainstream, will never become mainstream and should never become mainstream.

 

ISKCON doens't have to change it's ways and become just another mainstream religion.

 

Go hang out with the siddha pranali gang where you get all this crap.

There aren't any siddha pranali types on this forum anymore that I know of.

 

Srila Prabhupada definitely wanted for his movement to become mainstream and universally accepted by society. It is the same desire that Bhaktivinoda an Bhaktisiddhanta cherished. And in order to accomplish that they were willing to make many changes in the tradition - and they did make some changes already. That evolutionary process has not stopped. We are not done yet.

 

and btw, I was never part of the siddha pranali crowd and that is not about to change any time soon.

[DCD]

 

Srila Prabhupada definitely wanted for his movement to become mainstream and universally accepted by society. It is the same desire that Bhaktivinoda an Bhaktisiddhanta cherished. And in order to accomplish that they were willing to make many changes in the tradition - and they did make some changes already. That evolutionary process has not stopped. We are not done yet.

 

and btw, I was never part of the siddha pranali crowd and that is not about to change any time soon.

 

I Agree, Sri Caitanya Said that the holy name would be known in all places,

Prabhupada never used the word "cult" as "sect", there is an article about that but I don't remember now

[Guruvani]

 

Srila Prabhupada definitely wanted for his movement to become mainstream

 

you were talking about myths earlier...

here is a myth.....

 

Srila Prabhupada referred to the "cult of Sri Chaitanya" many times in his books and lectures.

 

Srila Prabhupada said that if even a small fraction of society becomes Krishna conscious then that will affect the whole world.

 

Your mainstream Hare Krishna movement is a pipedream as far as I am concerned.

 

If you water it down till it is nothing anymore, then it can become mainstream after about 1000 years.

[Kulapavana]

 

The reason has nothing to do with the guru's murtis being less or not appropriate. The guru's shoes are worshipped because his lotus feet physically touched those shoes, and they become his direct representation. There is no difference between keeping a guru's shoes on the altar and keeping his murti.

 

The practicality of an individual babaji, living alone in Vrindavan 500 years ago, making a single murti of his guru to worship on his altar with correct likeness is why it isn't done. It is much simpler to accept the shoes of the guru than to attempt an impossible feat like making a deity of him.

 

Murtis of all sorts were made back then all the time - more or less elaborate/detailed. I dont think the practicality was an issue - there were plenty of skilled artisans. There is no reference to guru murtis in the shastras either. You also dont see 50 sets of shoes on any temple altar representing all the past gurus - just one set. Everyone knows it is a symbolic representation of both guru and the entire succession. We are not Buddhists who build huge statues to their guru (well... there was this one Prabuddhapada statue in New Vrindavan... )

 

If you think people in the West coming to our temples dont have an issue with the cureent level of guru worship in our temples you are living in a sheltered world. It is not about trying to suit their taste but about being able to come through with your message. There is nothing wrong with the guru-murtis themselves, provided they dont get in the way of your main message. That is my point.

[Guruvani]

 

Prabhupada never used the word "cult" as "sect",

 

that is patently wrong.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 12.12 purport

 

 

Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura tried his best to spread the cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu to countries outside India. When he was present he patronized the disciples to go outside India to preach the cult of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, but they were unsuccessful because within their minds they were not actually serious about preaching His cult in foreign countries; they simply wanted to take credit for having gone to foreign lands and utilize this recognition in India by advertising themselves as repatriated preachers.

[Kulapavana]

 

Your mainstream Hare Krishna movement is a pipedream as far as I am concerned.

 

"We must know the present need of human society. And what is that need? Human society is no longer bounded by geographical limits to particular countries or communities. Human society is broader than in the Middle Ages, and the world tendency is toward one state or one human society. The ideals of spiritual communism, according to Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, are based more or less on the oneness of the entire human society, nay, of the entire energy of living beings. The need is felt by great thinkers to make this a successful ideology. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will fill this need in human society. It begins, therefore, with the aphorism of Vedānta philosophy janmādy asya yataḥ [SB 1.1.1] to establish the ideal of a common cause.

Human society, at the present moment, is not in the darkness of oblivion. It has made rapid progress in the field of material comforts, education and economic development throughout the entire world. But there is a pinprick somewhere in the social body at large, and therefore there are large-scale quarrels, even over less important issues. There is need of a clue as to how humanity can become one in peace, friendship and prosperity with a common cause. Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam will fill this need, for it is a cultural presentation for the respiritualization of the entire human society."

from Srila Prabhupada's Preface to Bhagavatam

[Guruvani]

 

the respiritualization of the entire human society."

from Srila Prabhupada's Preface to Bhagavatam

 

Considering that ISKCON has been losing ground since the passing of Srila Prabhupada it is still just a pipedream as far as I am concerned.

 

What is going to turn things around?

The GBC neophyte guru cult?

[Kulapavana]

 

Considering that ISKCON has been losing ground since the passing of Srila Prabhupada it is still just a pipedream as far as I am concerned.

 

What is going to turn things around?

The GBC neophyte guru cult?

 

We have been losing ground because we have indeed turned into a cult - not in the snse of this word that Prabhupada used, but in the common and derogatory sense other people use. The grand vision of the past Acharyas to present Bhagavatam in a way which millions of people can accept has been replaced with sectarianism and a desire to rule the world.

[DCD]

 

that is patently wrong.Ādi 12.12 purport

 

 

So Prabhupada and Sri Caitanya are sectarian?

bhakti yoga is sectarian?

is sectarian to be the eternal servant of Krsna?

is sectarian to chant the holy name of Krsna?

sanatan dharma is sectarian?

 

He used the word cult as culture not as sect, otherwise he would use the word sect.

 

 

If Prabhupada would think that the movement of Sri caitanya were a sect, so Why did he come to the western countries and translate so many books?.

[Guruvani]

 

We have been losing ground because we have indeed turned into a cult - not in the snse of this word that Prabhupada used, but in the common and derogatory sense other people use. The grand vision of the past Acharyas to present Bhagavatam in a way which millions of people can accept has been replaced with sectarianism and a desire to rule the world.

 

Capitalism is a cult.

communism is a cult.

Christianity is a cult.

Islam is a cult.

Buddhism is a cult.

 

Sanatan Dharma is universal religion.

 

But, overtaking all the cults of the world and establishing sanatan dharma is just a pipedream, but the great acharyas always strive for the ultimate.

 

However, idealism and reality are two different things.

 

Even within India, the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu was a sect or cult of Vedic religion.

 

In India the mainstream religion was smarta brahmanism.

 

Vasudeva Datta wanted to take the sins of the whole universe on himself so that the whole world could be liberated.

 

This is the idealism of the great souls.

 

Reality is not quite as nice.

[Kulapavana]

 

But, overtaking all the cults of the world and establishing sanatan dharma is just a pipedream, but the great acharyas always strive for the ultimate.

 

However, idealism and reality are two different things.

 

 

Actually, I think sanatana dharma has a shot at becoming broadly accepted - call me an idealist!

 

During the time of BST two ideas gained an extremely broad exposure (and acceptance) througout the world: communism and national socialism. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta had a similar vision for the movement of Lord Caitanya. That was the idea behind the brihat mridanga concept - to use the power of the mass produced and distributed written word to spread your idea far and wide just like the communists and national socialists did.

 

The only problem lies in the built-in rigidity and authoritarianism of the presented message. There is not enough of Bhaktivinoda's flexibility and freedom of expression in what we say and do to spread the Movement. Even the ideas became too centralised. In some ways Srila Prabhupada was careful not to centralize things, but he also spoke strongly against change. Thus the ideas themselves became centralized and immutable in the minds of many of his followers.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Murtis of all sorts were made back then all the time - more or less elaborate/detailed. I dont think the practicality was an issue - there were plenty of skilled artisans.

Even today it is extremely expensive to make a Deity, whether it is from marble, granite or ashtadhatu. 500 years ago, when transportation did not exist as it does now, and when sadhus lived in secluded places with no possessions, it was impossible for each sadhu to make a deity of their guru. Even the deities of Krishna in temples were donated by kings.

 

Making a deity of a traditional god or goddess itself is a long and difficult process, but making an accurate deity of a living person is much more difficult. For a god or goddess there are drawings and descriptions of how the deity is supposed to look. But 500 years ago there were no cameras or photogaphs, so what exactly would the artist base his carving on? A mendicant babaji in a forest in Vrindavan with no money is supposed to go to Delhi or Agra to bring an artisan for carving a deity, and then he is supposed to explain how his guru looked? And this artisan is going to stay in the forest with this babaji for a month as he carves it? Guru murtis weren't made simply because it wasn't practical, and that is why a small round stone is used as their murti in Gaudiya Vaishnava samadhis. Anyone can get a small round stone without much endeavour.

 

 

There is no reference to guru murtis in the shastras either.

Guru murtis did not originate with Srila Prabhupada. Ramanuja had his deity established in three different temples while he was still living. You obviously think he was a fool who didn't know the shastra. In the madhva line Raghavendra deities have been worshipped for hundreds of years.

 

Your claim that there is no reference to guru murtis in the shastras assumes that you have studied shilpa shastra - something I seriously doubt.

[Kulapavana]

 

Your claim that there is no reference to guru murtis in the shastras assumes that you have studied shilpa shastra - something I seriously doubt.

 

I thought that for Gaudiya Vaishnavas the authority in this area was Hari-bhakti-vilasa?

 

I'm not an expert on Sri Vaishnavism, but in the case of Ramanuja, his regular murtis are not considered deities and there were very special circumstances surrounding the making of the original murti.

 

But thank you for the information on shilpa shastra, I will research that subject.

[cbrahma]

 

But for the 'notalgic achievements' & sacrifices of folks like Guruvani pr, guys like you and I would have no clue about Krishna Consciousness.

 

Rather than belittle another devotees achivements so you can continue your fault finding crap, you should develop a little gratitude. It'll help you make progress, no seriously it will!

You don't know anything about me. That's your speculation. I am simply responding to boasting about past accomplishments as somehow a qualification for present judgments of how things are. FYI , mine are the more mudane achievements which I manage to carry out daily - like the full morning program, sixteen rounds, the 4 regulative priniciples, prasadam , hari-nama and other sevas.

[ksbh]

I agree. Sorry for any offences prabhu.

 

- Deborah Pitts

originally from Fortworth, Texas

 

 

You don't know anything about me. That's your speculation. I am simply responding to boasting about past accomplishments as somehow a qualification for present judgments of how things are. FYI , mine are the more mudane achievements which I manage to carry out daily - like the full morning program, sixteen rounds, the 4 regulative priniciples, prasadam , hari-nama and other sevas.

[Kulapavana]

 

You don't know anything about me. That's your speculation. I am simply responding to boasting about past accomplishments as somehow a qualification for present judgments of how things are. FYI , mine are the more mudane achievements which I manage to carry out daily - like the full morning program, sixteen rounds, the 4 regulative priniciples, prasadam , hari-nama and other sevas.

 

past service is never forgotten by Krsna. why should we be less generous?

 

I pay my respects to all sincere devotees - past, present, or future. Please forgive me if I was harsh to you in my posts. In real life I very much relate to other devotees strictly by their seva qualifications. I also dont just live in the past - I do practical devotional service, chant my rounds and follow the principles every day.

[cbrahma]

When generalizing about guru puja one should be careful to determine the level of guru that is being worshipped. In one sense all Vaisnavas are worshippable.

If one believes one's guru to be uttama-adhikari then he does manifest Krsna - is as good as Krsna.

But belief and reality are two different things. That Jagat-guru, pure devotee should be worshipped is not a myth. That what the ISKCON GBC is pawing off as uttama-adhikari is worthy of the same worship is not a myth - it is a calculated fraud.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I thought that for Gaudiya Vaishnavas the authority in this area was Hari-bhakti-vilasa?

 

Hari-bhakti-vilasa has nothing to do with constructing deities.

[cbrahma]

 

past service is never forgotten by Krsna. why should we be less generous?

 

I pay my respects to all sincere devotees - past, present, or future. Please forgive me if I was harsh to you in my posts. In real life I very much relate to other devotees strictly by their seva qualifications. I also dont just live in the past - I do practical devotional service, chant my rounds and follow the principles every day.

Past service is valuable when it is done sincerely and with devotion - not for fame and adoration -which is the boasting tone I heard.

[DCD]

 

Capitalism is a cult.

communism is a cult.

Christianity is a cult.

Islam is a cult.

Buddhism is a cult.

 

Sanatan Dharma is universal religion.

 

But, overtaking all the cults of the world and establishing sanatan dharma is just a pipedream, but the great acharyas always strive for the ultimate.

 

However, idealism and reality are two different things.

 

Even within India, the Sankirtan movement of Mahaprabhu was a sect or cult of Vedic religion.

 

In India the mainstream religion was smarta brahmanism.

 

Vasudeva Datta wanted to take the sins of the whole universe on himself so that the whole world could be liberated.

 

This is the idealism of the great souls.

 

Reality is not quite as nice.

 

 

Sanatan dharma is not a sect or religion or Sankirtan movement is not a sect or religion, Prabhupada used to say One has to think very big just to make a 10% of what were you thinking.

 

The ideal of all vaishnavas is to spread the holy name of Krsna all over the world, if you think that this is not possible you are limiting your own power or others, faith is a must.

 

the chant of the holy name is trascendental and the sanatan dharma is the eternal religion of the living being (serve to the Supreme Lord). In past yugas people followed the sanatan dharma in the whole world. Now Sri Caitanya said that a new satya yuga comes with the holy name that will last for 10.000 years.

 

Does Satya yuga means a few people chanting Hare Krsna or others names of the lord in the streets while millions of others people are rotten in this kali yuga?

 

Prabhupada used to say that is very possible that Krsna would come again if the actual civilization were going on in a materalistic way (jesuchrist second comming? 2012? is very possible)

[Kulapavana]

 

Hari-bhakti-vilasa has nothing to do with constructing deities.

 

Yes, but there is nothing there about murti worship of the guru either while the worship of the Lord is described in great detail.

 

Does shilpa shastra actually address the making of guru-murtis or only murtis of various Deities?

[Guruvani]

 

You don't know anything about me. That's your speculation. I am simply responding to boasting about past accomplishments as somehow a qualification for present judgments of how things are. FYI , mine are the more mudane achievements which I manage to carry out daily - like the full morning program, sixteen rounds, the 4 regulative priniciples, prasadam , hari-nama and other sevas.

but, boasting about present accomplishments is somehow alright?

 

Many stalwarts have gone down.

 

Once you start bragging about yourself the fall is just around the corner.

 

I wasn't boasting about my past.

I was simply stating that I have an interest in ISKCON unlike many devotees from other sects of the Saraswata sampradaya.

 

Those of us who have sacrificed and given considerably to the development of ISKCON have a right to speak about the back-pedeling ISKCON has undergone since the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

Those who have never given anything to ISKCON have not as much right to complain.