From Caru's Newsletter: Ramesvara Dasa at LA Ratha Yatra

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

From Caru's newsletter:

 

Robert Grant, formerly Ramesvara Swami, walked along side of Lord Jagannatha’s cart. Though he was once in charge of the festival he moved to New York in about 1989 and had not been since. It was a very emotional return for him and the many devotees who welcomed him back.

 

A few weeks ago the Utah online gift store received an order for four books from Robert Grant, who also wrote a message.

 

“Haribol! All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

 

I am so happy to have found your site, and to see the wonderful service you are performing.

 

One day, when I have finally extricated myself from my mundane responsibilities and entanglements, perhaps I can crawl back and be allowed to humbly clean or do some other meager service for Prabhupada's devotees in a temple like this one.”

 

Robert Grant (Ramesvara Dasa)

[Guruvani]

wow....

 

I am not a big fan of his but it's always nice to see one of these vanished devotees show up again somewhere.

 

The one I really want to see show up again would be Achyutananda Swami.

[Kulapavana]

Very nice! Another atman re-awakening

[Guruvani]

 

Very nice! Another atman re-awakening

 

I doubt he was ever really sleeping.

Just because he shows up around ISKCON again doesn't mean that he forgot everything he learned from Srila Prabhupada.

 

There are many devotees out there that keep their distance from ISKCON.

But, that doesn't mean they are asleep to Krishna consciousness.

[Guruvani]

Ramesvar was as much a victim as anything.

He originally opposed the sinister plan to transform the BIG 11 from ritviks to zonal gurus.

He was bullied by Tamal and some others into going along with the zonal guru system.

He also vehemently opposed the putting of vyasasans in the temples for the zonal gurus.

Again, he was bullied into going along with the sinister plot.

 

He played the game as long as he could then he made a plan to exit ISKCON and merge back into secular society.

 

He was a victim like so many others of the stupidity and arrogance of a handful of leading disciples who hatched a scheme to take over ISKCON after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I don't see much of anything that Ramesvar should be ashamed of.

He was not a bad guy really.

He got sucked into a bad situation.

[suchandra]

 

Ramesvar was as much a victim as anything.

He originally opposed the sinister plan to transform the BIG 11 from ritviks to zonal gurus.

He was bullied by Tamal and some others into going along with the zonal guru system.

He also vehemently opposed the putting of vyasasans in the temples for the zonal gurus.

Again, he was bullied into going along with the sinister plot.

 

He played the game as long as he could then he made a plan to exit ISKCON and merge back into secular society.

 

He was a victim like so many others of the stupidity and arrogance of a handful of leading disciples who hatched a scheme to take over ISKCON after the passing of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I don't see much of anything that Ramesvar should be ashamed of.

He was not a bad guy really.

He got sucked into a bad situation.

HG Ramesvar prabhuji was always such a fired up preacher that he was an example for all of us. We used to discuss how Ramesvar prabhu must be completely above the modes and how we could also develop such determination in devotional service and taste of perfectly serving Prabhupada like he did. Prabhupada was so pleased with Ramesvar prabhu's dedicated activities. His resignment from Prabhupada's movement caused something like a trauma in all of us which we couldnt accept but repressed. To hear that his soul is still attached to Prabhupada's lotusfeet although he might outwardly be engaged in so called materialistic activity is a great encouragement.

[mahak]

Ill stay in exile, thank you. He may have been against it, but he had me chased down the freeway because I laughed at the notion that he was a naistika brahmacari, pure devotee sinse birth. Maybe it was because I was sitting near the front when I walked out on his ridiculous ramblings from his vyasasana. But as I got in my car next to the laundrymat, his goon squad was upon me. So, Im glad his disco queen got too old and ugly and that hes going back home to the temple, but Im not going home, ever.

 

Hare Krsna ys, mahaksadasa

[Kulapavana]

 

Ramesvar was as much a victim as anything.

 

Well, he resigned from his post for very specific reasons and he certainly was no victim there.

[Guruvani]

 

Well, he resigned from his post for very specific reasons and he certainly was no victim there.

 

Well, my point was that originally he was a victim.

Once he agree to chime in with the conspirators he got in over his head.

 

Either way, if he is humble enough to show his face around ISKCON again I think he should be welcomed and forgiven as I think Srila Prabhupada would welcome and forgive him.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Well, he resigned from his post for very specific reasons and he certainly was no victim there.

Of all of the zonal acharyas he has done the least amount of damage. He misused his position for a short amount of time, 3 or 4 years, whereas there are others who have misused their positions for 30 years.

 

Also his zone was one of the few zones that did not collapse after he left. It is still one of the strongest zones in the world outside of India.

 

The BBT remained strong even after he left. He could have really destroyed things if he wanted to. He could have bankrupted the BBT and ran off with the money. But he handed the leadership over to others and they continued managing it.

 

People like Bhagavan and Bhavananda destroyed their zones and left them without a penny or a building.

 

I believe part of the reason his zone was not looted was because he handed things over to his assistants. It wasn't an outside party coming in to take over management. For example, Badrinarayana who still is in charge of San Diego was his close assistant.

 

Overall the tone of his letter sounds like he is sorry for what he did and wants to perform humble service to Srila Prabhupada's movement. If other former leaders would take a humble position and apologize for what they have done, then I am sure many people would forgive them for their mistakes.

 

They were only around 25 to 30 years old when Srila Prabhupada left the world. Only the biggest fool in the world would install vyasasanas for themself in all of Prabhupada's temples throughout the world while they were only 25 years old, and then demand all of Prabhupada's disciples to worship them.

 

Imagine today if some 25 year old kid (who had been a devotee for just 7 years) brought an easy chair into the LA temple and placed it next to Prabhupada and started telling everyone they had to worship him as good as God. It is really almost laughable. But thats exactly what happened. A bunch of people who had been devotees for just 7 or 8 years, and who were around 25 to 28 years old started putting seats next to Prabhupada and demanded all of Prabhupada's disciples to worship them as good as God. You have to be really insanse to demand that at the age of 25.

[Kulapavana]

 

Of all of the zonal acharyas he has done the least amount of damage. He misused his position for a short amount of time, 3 or 4 years, whereas there are others who have misused their positions for 30 years.

 

On that I will agree with you. Still, I dont see him as a victim in any way. Lord Krsna paid him for his service with power, easy life, money, and women, because this is what he desired. Maybe this time he is ready for true devotional service - I honestly hope he is. He was quite intelligent and if he has his ambitions under control, he can perform valuable service.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Yes, I don't think any of the leaders were victims. They all willfully misused their positions and subsequently destroyed Srila Prabhupada's movement. But if they are sincerely sorry for what they did they could be forgiven by the devotees.

[Kulapavana]

 

A bunch of people who had been devotees for just 7 or 8 years, and who were around 25 to 28 years old started putting seats next to Prabhupada and demanded all of Prabhupada's disciples to worship them as good as God. You have to be really insanse to demand that at the age of 25.

 

It was actually quite a bit more complicated, but yes - devotees are often extremely gullible. Give them some fancy spin on our theology and they fall for it head over heels.

 

Faith in authorities is such a double-edged sword. And a blind faith in authorities is a true recipe for disaster. In most cases there were very, very clear signs that these leaders were doing something wrong still nobody really did anything to stop them until things got way out of hand. Some very close associates of these people (who today are the GBC) still claim they knew nothing at the time - and devotees still buy these stories and still see these "unobservant" people as their leaders.

[Svarupa]

 

Yes, I don't think any of the leaders were victims. They all willfully misused their positions and subsequently destroyed Srila Prabhupada's movement. But if they are sincerely sorry for what they did they could be forgiven by the devotees.

 

I wouldn't go as far as saying destroyed, it was the very beginning, the very early stages and the strenth of ISKCON is that it has survived the pioneering years. The ultimate measure of a movement is not where it stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. This means being compassionate to the fallen, no matter what they have done in the past, who are humble enough to simply come back home, back to ISKCON

 

Maybe there should be an amnesty one day soon where the 'proud' sanyasi's and GBC take a humble position and invite everyone back.

[Guruvani]

 

The ultimate measure of a movement is not where it stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

If the ISKCON leadership would have followed the instructions of Srila Prabhupda there would never have been "challenge and controversy".

 

Srila Prabhupada's instructions are all the comfort and convenience necessary.

 

The controversy and challenge came when the ISKCON leadership mutilated ISKCON and remade it according to their own whims.

[Beggar]

 

 

....They were only around 25 to 30 years old when Srila Prabhupada left the world. Only the biggest fool in the world would install vyasasanas for themself in all of Prabhupada's temples throughout the world while they were only 25 years old, and then demand all of Prabhupada's disciples to worship them....

 

 

 

In 1978 Satsvarupa was 40, Kirtanananda about 42, Hamsadutta was about 38, Bhagavan was 30, Bhavanananda around 37, Tamal was 30 as was Hrdyananda, Jayapataka and Jayatirtha. I believe Harikesa was 29 and Ramesvara was only 26. So actually only two were in their late twenties. The seniority of those in their late thirties and early fourties lent credence to the plot for the mass of ISKCON devotees who were mostly between 25 to say 33 in 1978.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I'd wager Beggar is right about these figures. Beggar can remember what the weather was like on any particular day in 1967!!

 

Still, Jahnava Nitai Prabhu's initial point about the successor gurus being a bit green in the horns to be accepting the mantle of acharya is valid.

 

I won't question Srila Prabhupada's judgement, though. I still insist that everything is happening by the grace of the Lord and that all of the fall-downs etc. are part of the greater lila of Mahaprabhu.

 

Certainly, all who have observed the history of ISKCON in the past 30 years have had it hammered home that devotion is not a superficial thing!!

 

 

In 1978 Satsvarupa was 40, Kirtanananda about 42, Hamsadutta was about 38, Bhagavan was 30, Bhavanananda around 37, Tamal was 30 as was Hrdyananda, Jayapataka and Jayatirtha. I believe Harikesa was 29 and Ramesvara was only 26. So actually only two were in their late twenties. The seniority of those in their late thirties and early fourties lent credence to the plot for the mass of ISKCON devotees who were mostly between 25 to say 33 in 1978.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Also, I won't claim any mystic potencies, but at L.A. Ratha Yatra, I had this strong thought of Ramesvar Prabhu. In fact, I remember seeing one person and thinking, "That couldn't be..."

 

Maybe it *was*!!!

[Kulapavana]

 

I still insist that everything is happening by the grace of the Lord and that all of the fall-downs etc. are part of the greater lila of Mahaprabhu.

 

yes, it is all a glorious leela of Mahaprabhu, including the abuse of all the gurukulis...

 

like I said, many devotees are very gullible..

[Guruvani]

 

In 1978 Satsvarupa was 40, Kirtanananda about 42, Hamsadutta was about 38, Bhagavan was 30, Bhavanananda around 37, Tamal was 30 as was Hrdyananda, Jayapataka and Jayatirtha. I believe Harikesa was 29 and Ramesvara was only 26. So actually only two were in their late twenties. The seniority of those in their late thirties and early fourties lent credence to the plot for the mass of ISKCON devotees who were mostly between 25 to say 33 in 1978.

 

Whatever.

Still, even the most senior of the bunch had only been a devotee for 11 years.

(Kirtanananda) and the rest were only devotees for 8 or 10 years.

 

To propose that these guys were ready and qualfied to become "Bhaktipada", "Gurupada", "Acharyapada" etc. etc. is pure insanity.

 

Their takeover of ISKCON will go down in history as the greatest atrocity to ever be committed against the sacred Gaudiya sampradaya.

 

It was heinous and monsterous, but they were too blinded by ambition to stop themselves.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

yes, it is all a glorious leela of Mahaprabhu, including the abuse of all the gurukulis...

 

like I said, many devotees are very gullible..

 

You mean the abuse of a *few* gurukulis. I was a gurukuli and I was not abused. Many of my peers and friends were also not abused.

 

Mahaprabhu's Lila included "less savory" incidences like the story of Chota Hari Das or Mahaprabhu's personal servant who fell by the wayside in South India. Are these stories not instructive???

 

To say that a "devotee" is gullible is very offensive (I'm not including myself in the ranks of the "devotees"). Someone with true devotion has complete and utter reliance on the Lord, so yes, I guess, you *could* say they are "gullible" if you are an envious snake.

[Kulapavana]

 

To say that a "devotee" is gullible is very offensive (I'm not including myself in the ranks of the "devotees"). Someone with true devotion has complete and utter reliance on the Lord, so yes, I guess, you *could* say they are "gullible" if you are an envious snake.

 

sure, why not.. I'm a snake. Do you feel better now?

 

as to being gullible... no, devotees who followed Kirtanananda despite all his abuses were not gullible... or they were not devotees? you chose. it's your logic. I took one look at this guy standing with his dirty dog five feet in front of the Deities and I knew what was going on

 

just because you buy a certain view of outside reality does not make this view true.

 

if you abused my kids, this "leela of Mahaprabhu" you talk about might include me sending you to jail, or worse. the same if you stole money from my temple. I would not have cared if you wore tilak and dhoti while committing a crime, or were a GBC, sannyasi or a "guru". that does not make you special enough to get away with such activities while pretending to be a devotee.

 

the idea that somehow Mahaprabhu enjoys his movement trashed as part of His leela is very foreign to me. after all the idea of the leela is to have fun, isn't it? Actually, the Lord makes due with what idiots like us dish out in front of Him - that is true. but to call it a leela is a big stretch. that was my objection, nothing personal prabhu.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

sure, why not.. I'm a snake. Do you feel better now?

 

No. I'm also a snake.

 

 

as to being gullible... no, devotees who followed Kirtanananda despite all his abuses were not gullible... or they were not devotees? you chose. it's your logic. I took one look at this guy standing with his dirty dog five feet in front of the Deities and I knew what was going on

 

I like to think of them as being sincere. My good friend was one of those that followed Kirtanananda. He still has great affection for him. Regardless of his faults, he was empowered by the Lord to do some service.

 

 

just because you buy a certain view of outside reality does not make this view true.

 

Let's not even go there. What's "reality"? Do I even care?

 

 

the idea that somehow Mahaprabhu enjoys his movement trashed as part of His leela is very foreign to me. after all the idea of the leela is to have fun, isn't it? Actually, the Lord makes due with what idiots like us dish out in front of Him - that is true. but to call it a leela is a big stretch. that was my objection, nothing personal prabhu.

 

Well, can you specifically address how you view the specific incidences I cite from Mahaprabhu's manifest lila? Namely Chota Hari Das and Mahaprabhu's servant on His South India pilgrimage?

 

As for lila being fun, do you mean to say that, while Radha and Krishna are experiencing separation (or when Mahaprabhu is in *His* mood of separation), that they are "having fun"?

[Kulapavana]

 

Well, can you specifically address how you view the specific incidences I cite from Mahaprabhu's manifest lila? Namely Chota Hari Das and Mahaprabhu's servant on His South India pilgrimage?

 

As for lila being fun, do you mean to say that, while Radha and Krishna are experiencing separation (or when Mahaprabhu is in *His* mood of separation), that they are "having fun"?

 

I refuse to compare what is happening now in our movement with any part of true Mahaprabhu's leela. By it's very definition, that leela is no longer manifested here on earth. And I am not qualified to comment on your specific incidents - CC with Prabhupada's purports is the authority on this subject.

 

Yes, the leela's separation in love is supremely enjoyable because the nectar is the love itself and separation makes the love more intense.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Yes, the leela's separation in love is supremely enjoyable because the nectar is the love itself and separation makes the love more intense.

 

Yes, that rasa is described as being the most pleasurable--even more pleasurable than union--but I'd like to see how it meets anybody's definition of "fun".

 

Pining away for one's paramour isn't "fun" in my book (well, maybe it was fun for a few weeks when I was 13 years old...)!