From Caru's Newsletter: Ramesvara Dasa at LA Ratha Yatra

[Guruvani]

 

I refuse to compare what is happening now in our movement

You means like your's and Prabhupada's?

 

The Krishna consciousness movement is not mine, your or ours.

It's Mahaprabhu's and his great generals.

 

"our movement"?

 

Not at all.

 

That sounds like some GBC or bhogi guru talking......."our movement".

[Kulapavana]

 

You means like your's and Prabhupada's?

 

The Krishna consciousness movement is not mine, your or ours.

It's Mahaprabhu's and his great generals.

 

"our movement"?

 

Not at all.

 

That sounds like some GBC or bhogi guru talking......."our movement".

 

since we both belong to it, it is our movement - not in the sense of ownership (as in: ultimately Krsna owns everything) but in the sense of identity.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes, that rasa is described as being the most pleasurable--even more pleasurable than union--but I'd like to see how it meets anybody's definition of "fun".

 

For a non-American (that I am) "fun" is simply a word very much related to "enjoyment" or taking pleasure in something.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

For a non-American (that I am) "fun" is simply a word very much related to "enjoyment" or taking pleasure in something.

 

Hmmm...interesting. Here in the USA, "fun" has the connotation of *light-hearted* enjoyment.

 

Of course, my own definition of "fun" includes the feeling of relief when I stop banging my head against the wall

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

since we both belong to it, it is our movement - not in the sense of ownership (as in: ultimately Krsna owns everything) but in the sense of identity.

 

Your point is well-taken.

 

Yet, at the same time, isn't it about time that many of us did, indeed, "take ownership" of ISKCON in the sense of being stewards and well-wishers?

 

Otherwise, it's just "somebody else's problem."

[Guruvani]

 

since we both belong to it, it is our movement - not in the sense of ownership (as in: ultimately Krsna owns everything) but in the sense of identity.

 

Whatever.

 

I personally make a note never to use such wording.

I don't like the wording "our Krishna consciousness movement".

 

It' not "ours".

 

It is Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's movement - the Yuga Avatar.

[theist]

Kirtana is fun.

 

Fun is good.

 

I like fun and

 

Nobody has as much fun as Krsna.

 

He is the King of Fun.

[Guruvani]

 

Kirtana is fun.

 

Fun is good.

 

I like fun and

 

Nobody has as much fun as Krsna.

 

He is the King of Fun.

 

You hit that one on the button.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yet, at the same time, isn't it about time that many of us did, indeed, "take ownership" of ISKCON in the sense of being stewards and well-wishers?

 

Otherwise, it's just "somebody else's problem."

 

Yes, ownership changes sand into gold

[Guruvani]

 

Yes, ownership changes sand into gold

 

Ownership of the KC movement turns bhakti into maya.

[Kulapavana]

 

Ownership of the KC movement turns bhakti into maya.

 

it was a figurative speech. lighten up, prabhu.

 

yet there is some real value in taking the movement on a more personal level. the local devotees should feel empowered to look after "their" temple - especially if they were the ones who made it happen in the first place.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

it was a figurative speech. lighten up, prabhu.

 

yet there is some real value in taking the movement on a more personal level. the local devotees should feel empowered to look after "their" temple - especially if they were the ones who made it happen in the first place.

 

Exactly. As I say each time somebody complains about the GBC: make them irrelevant! Do your service on the local level. Share some of the wealth we have been given by the predecessor acharyas.

 

Of course everything belongs to Krishna. ISKCON is the house that Prabhupada built (for each and every sincere seeker). If we all take up some service and jealously guard it (not in the sense of excluding others, but in the sense of taking pride in it and ensuring that it gets done), imagine what could happen? No, imagine what *will* happen!!

[Guruvani]

 

it was a figurative speech. lighten up, prabhu.

 

yet there is some real value in taking the movement on a more personal level. the local devotees should feel empowered to look after "their" temple - especially if they were the ones who made it happen in the first place.

 

That's the kind of thinking that has plundered ISKCON and turned it into a wreck.

 

I despise the idea that the temple is anyone's except Mahaprabhu's.

 

Devotees are supposed to see it as the temple of the Lord, not "their temple".

 

I can see that you have learned well from the GBC and ISKCON gurus.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I think you're misunderstanding. It's just like Christians misunderstand the Bible when it says that humans have "dominion" over animals. Dominion means responsibility for protection, stewardship, not an excuse to plunder and abuse.

 

Think of the roles and moods of the great kings in Srimad Bhagavatam and other scriptures. Think of the sober mood of Sri Rama the night before His coronation--he was apprehensive of the great responsibilities which were about to fall on his head.

 

You're not addicted to coffee are you Gauravani? Sometimes I wonder if you're having a caffeine headache

 

 

That's the kind of thinking that has plundered ISKCON and turned it into a wreck.

 

I despise the idea that the temple is anyone's except Mahaprabhu's.

 

Devotees are supposed to see it as the temple of the Lord, not "their temple".

 

I can see that you have learned well from the GBC and ISKCON gurus.

[Guruvani]

 

 

You're not addicted to coffee are you Gauravani? Sometimes I wonder if you're having a caffeine headache

 

so quick to judge and speculate.

enjoy your onions my friend.

 

I don't do coffee.

I am an herbal tea person - caffeine free.

 

Caffeine is a total energy suck.

I hate caffeine.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I'm not judging (or I'm trying *not* to). I'm just observing how widely your mood tends to swing.

 

I had some black coffee driving back from L.A. Ratha Yatra (7:30 PM - 1:00 AM), but I'm not a regular drinker.

 

I'm not one to point fingers, but I *will* express concern for those whom I hold dear.

 

 

so quick to judge and speculate.

enjoy your onions my friend.

 

I don't do coffee.

I am an herbal tea person - caffeine free.

 

Caffeine is a total energy suck.

I hate caffeine.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I like to think of them as being sincere. My good friend was one of those that followed Kirtanananda. He still has great affection for him. Regardless of his faults, he was empowered by the Lord to do some service.

 

Many times people bring up the idea that people such as Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Bhagavan, etc. were "empowered by Lord Krishna" and accomplished great things for ISKCON, but finally they fell to maya like geat generals in a battle. Thats a bunch of nonsense. These people did nothing for ISKCON, in fact they destroyed ISKCON from the beginning itself.

 

All of the geat accomplishments in ISKCON weren't done by these rascals, they were done by the sincere devotees working under them. Did Kirtanananda build New Vrinavan? No, he sat by abusing kids as the parents of those children worked in slave labor to develop that project. Did Harikesh distribute millions of Srila Prabhupada's books throughout Europe? No his disciples struggled and did that hard work while he lived in a motor home that cost a quarter of a million dollars. Did Bhavananda develop Mayapur? Not one bit. He abused the local Bengali children while living a luxurious life in the holy dham.

 

None of these people were empowered by Krishna, unless you are thinking in the way that Hiranyakashipu was also empowered by Krishna. The devotees who were empowered by Krishna were the sincere bhaktas and disciples who sacrificed everything thinking it was for Krishna, but in the end found out it most of it was for some useless criminal.

 

After destroying ISKCON, Kirtananana still managed to stash away enough money in secret bank accounts to buy a huge building in New York. After destroying ISKCON Harikesh still managed to buy a mansion in the french riviera, which he later sold for one million dollars. After destroying ISKCON Bhagavan still managed to empty the safe and run off with every last penny he could find. These people were rascals who destroyed ISKCON. But the sincere and hard working devotees who actually accomplished everything were more often than not left in the street like dogs.

 

So I will have to disagree anytime I hear that these people where "empowered by Lord Krishna to do great things". They were the demons who infiltrated Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement to try to stop its spread and influence in the Kali Yuga. Ultimately these demons like dhenukasura, aghasura, trinivarta, and putana can't stop Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement. In that sense I can accept it as the Lila of Mahaprabhu. The demons have attacked His sankirtan movement, and he has responed by destroying those demons just like Lord Krishna did 5,000 years ago.

[Kulapavana]

 

That's the kind of thinking that has plundered ISKCON and turned it into a wreck.

 

I despise the idea that the temple is anyone's except Mahaprabhu's.

 

Devotees are supposed to see it as the temple of the Lord, not "their temple".

 

I can see that you have learned well from the GBC and ISKCON gurus.

 

whatever... I have seen dumb lazy sannyasis walk away from a temple because it was "too difficult" to pay the mortgage - and in a few years the property was worth 2 times the mortgage. why did they walk away? because it was "Krsna's temple" and "Krsna's money". These kibutz ideas of "God ownership" just dont work in real life. That is why all our farms failed as well. And nobody was ever held accountable for these losses.

 

What I learned from the GBC and Iskcon gurus is not to be a pseudo-transcendentalist in practical matters... like they were and still are.

 

Prabhupada wanted all his temples owned by localy incorporated society of devotees - that is a practical idea, not some nebulous notion of "God's ownership".

[Guruvani]

 

some nebulous notion of "God's ownership".

 

Nebulous?

 

What is nebulous is this crack-pot notion that the temples of Krishna are the property of the fallen jivas lording it over matter.

 

We own NOTHING, ZIP, NADA..... ZILCH!

We don't even own our own souls.

We are Krishna's property, the temples are Krishna's property.

 

We own absolutely NOTHING.

[Guruvani]

 

Many times people bring up the idea that people such as Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Bhagavan, etc. were "empowered by Lord Krishna" and accomplished great things for ISKCON, but finally they fell to maya like geat generals in a battle. Thats a bunch of nonsense. These people did nothing for ISKCON, in fact they destroyed ISKCON from the beginning itself.

 

All of the geat accomplishments in ISKCON weren't done by these rascals, they were done by the sincere devotees working under them. Did Kirtanananda build New Vrinavan? No, he sat by abusing kids as the parents of those children worked in slave labor to develop that project. Did Harikesh distribute millions of Srila Prabhupada's books throughout Europe? No his disciples struggled and did that hard work while he lived in a motor home that cost a quarter of a million dollars. Did Bhavananda develop Mayapur? Not one bit. He abused the local Bengali children while living a luxurious life in the holy dham.

 

None of these people were empowered by Krishna, unless you are thinking in the way that Hiranyakashipu was also empowered by Krishna. The devotees who were empowered by Krishna were the sincere bhaktas and disciples who sacrificed everything thinking it was for Krishna, but in the end found out it most of it was for some useless criminal.

 

After destroying ISKCON, Kirtananana still managed to stash away enough money in secret bank accounts to buy a huge building in New York. After destroying ISKCON Harikesh still managed to buy a mansion in the french riviera, which he later sold for one million dollars. After destroying ISKCON Bhagavan still managed to empty the safe and run off with every last penny he could find. These people were rascals who destroyed ISKCON. But the sincere and hard working devotees who actually accomplished everything were more often than not left in the street like dogs.

 

So I will have to disagree anytime I hear that these people where "empowered by Lord Krishna to do great things". They were the demons who infiltrated Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement to try to stop its spread and influence in the Kali Yuga. Ultimately these demons like dhenukasura, aghasura, trinivarta, and putana can't stop Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement. In that sense I can accept it as the Lila of Mahaprabhu. The demons have attacked His sankirtan movement, and he has responed by destroying those demons just like Lord Krishna did 5,000 years ago.

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Wow! It's obvious how strongly you feel about this. Could it be a warning sign for you?

 

It's one thing to give credit to subordinates where the actions are beneficial, but then, does that also excuse the supervisor from responsibility for the *harm* caused by their subordinates? It seems unfair to not give them any credit for the good actions taken in their name but to hang all the blame for the naughtiness on them.

 

George Bush has not pulled the trigger to kill any Iraqis, but I hold him directly responsible for the daily carnage in Iraq.

 

Adolph Hitler may not have personally gassed any Jews, homosexuals or Gypsy's, but the blame is most certainly placed at his feet.

 

You can say whatever you like about Kirtanananda, but you cannot deny the inspiration my friend felt in his association.

 

As for his supposed crimes, if you were not present to witness them, aren't any accusation you make hear-say?

 

In a public letter, another friend of mine, Samba, denied that he was ever abused by Kirtananda. He denies seeing any abuse. I'm not saying nothing untoward ever happened, but this forum is certainly not a court of law, and, as easy as it is to judge, to pass judgement is not very humble is it?

 

 

Many times people bring up the idea that people such as Kirtanananda, Bhavananda, Bhagavan, etc. were "empowered by Lord Krishna" and accomplished great things for ISKCON, but finally they fell to maya like geat generals in a battle. Thats a bunch of nonsense. These people did nothing for ISKCON, in fact they destroyed ISKCON from the beginning itself.

 

All of the geat accomplishments in ISKCON weren't done by these rascals, they were done by the sincere devotees working under them. Did Kirtanananda build New Vrinavan? No, he sat by abusing kids as the parents of those children worked in slave labor to develop that project. Did Harikesh distribute millions of Srila Prabhupada's books throughout Europe? No his disciples struggled and did that hard work while he lived in a motor home that cost a quarter of a million dollars. Did Bhavananda develop Mayapur? Not one bit. He abused the local Bengali children while living a luxurious life in the holy dham.

 

None of these people were empowered by Krishna, unless you are thinking in the way that Hiranyakashipu was also empowered by Krishna. The devotees who were empowered by Krishna were the sincere bhaktas and disciples who sacrificed everything thinking it was for Krishna, but in the end found out it most of it was for some useless criminal.

 

After destroying ISKCON, Kirtananana still managed to stash away enough money in secret bank accounts to buy a huge building in New York. After destroying ISKCON Harikesh still managed to buy a mansion in the french riviera, which he later sold for one million dollars. After destroying ISKCON Bhagavan still managed to empty the safe and run off with every last penny he could find. These people were rascals who destroyed ISKCON. But the sincere and hard working devotees who actually accomplished everything were more often than not left in the street like dogs.

 

So I will have to disagree anytime I hear that these people where "empowered by Lord Krishna to do great things". They were the demons who infiltrated Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement to try to stop its spread and influence in the Kali Yuga. Ultimately these demons like dhenukasura, aghasura, trinivarta, and putana can't stop Lord Caitanya's sankirtan movement. In that sense I can accept it as the Lila of Mahaprabhu. The demons have attacked His sankirtan movement, and he has responed by destroying those demons just like Lord Krishna did 5,000 years ago.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

We own absolutely NOTHING.

 

Send me the deed to your home and the pink slips to your cars. Thanks!

[Kulapavana]

 

We own NOTHING, ZIP, NADA..... ZILCH!

We don't even own our own souls.

We are Krishna's property, the temples are Krishna's property.

 

 

dont mix philosophical rhetoric with practicalities. in the legal and practical sense there simply MUST be a legal and practical entity that owns the temple. who should that be? think.

 

devotees did not protest when a temple was sold from under them because they were brainwashed into thinking that since Krsna owns everything it is ok for His "representatives" like GBCs and gurus to dispose of Krsna's property as they wish.

[Guruvani]

 

Send me the deed to your home and the pink slips to your cars. Thanks!

 

you wouldn't want this shack.

Ask your momma for her place.

[Guruvani]

 

dont mix philosophical rhetoric with practicalities. in the legal and practical sense there simply MUST be a legal and practical entity that owns the temple. who should that be?

sure if you bought and payed for the temple yourself, then you have some right.

Nobody has claim to what devotees have built on sacrifice and surrender through street begging and fund raising.