From Caru's Newsletter: Ramesvara Dasa at LA Ratha Yatra

[Kulapavana]

 

In a public letter, another friend of mine, Samba, denied that he was ever abused by Kirtananda. He denies seeing any abuse. I'm not saying nothing untoward ever happened, but this forum is certainly not a court of law, and, as easy as it is to judge, to pass judgement is not very humble is it?

 

He was certainly tried and convicted in a court of law for very serious crimes, thus he is a convicted felon and a criminal. Yes, people fall in love even with serial killers - but what on earth does it prove? Guys like him shamed Mahaprabhu's movement for decades and made us a laughing stock of society at large. They (personally or through their minions) inflicted untold amount of pain on hundreds of devotees. These are the facts, and mentioning facts has nothing to do with humility.

[ksbh]

Mahaprabhu's movement is not some mundane off the street carnival that someone can shame with his deeds.

 

All that the actions of some deviants does is provide fodder to the doomsayers (spelling?). It does nothing to slow down the movement and even if it does, it's very temporary. It's predicted that this movement will last 10,000 years and you bet it will, no matter what.

 

 

He was certainly tried and convicted in a court of law for very serious crimes, thus he is a convicted felon and a criminal. Yes, people fall in love even with serial killers - but what on earth does it prove? Guys like him shamed Mahaprabhu's movement for decades and made us a laughing stock of society at large. They (personally or through their minions) inflicted untold amount of pain on hundreds of devotees. These are the facts, and mentioning facts has nothing to do with humility.

[Kulapavana]

 

sure if you bought and payed for the temple yourself, then you have some right.

Nobody has claim to what devotees have built on sacrifice and surrender through street begging and fund raising.

 

Nobody? Sure the temples are not owned by nobodys. You better check again.

 

The temples should be owned by localy incorporated societies of devotees - that was Prabhupada's idea and it makes perfect sense. When GBCs alienate local comunities it is THEY who should be asked to leave, not the local devotees as happened many times all over the world. When local devotees abandon the temple the big kahunas are free to sell them... see the connection?

[Guruvani]

 

The temples should be owned by localy incorporated societies of devotees - that was Prabhupada's idea and it makes perfect sense.

exactly.

that is how the temple in Alachua operates but nobody in this community considers the temple as "theirs".

 

Even the biggest contributors to this temple claim no possession of this temple.

 

If you want to see the model temple, then you can look at New Raman Reti in Alachua Florida.

 

Now, this is the way it should be.

Nobody can plunder this temple and walk off with the assets.

 

(maybe that is why the New Raman Reti temple has the largest congregation of devotees in North America?)

[Kulapavana]

 

Mahaprabhu's movement is not some mundane off the street carnival that someone can shame with his deeds.

 

There were lots of times I felt ashamed to be a part of Iskcon and I'm not alone in that feeling.

 

I have to deal with anti-cult people quite frequently in my preaching and guys like Kirtanananda, Bhavs and Hansadutta gave them plenty of ammo for decades!

[Kulapavana]

 

If you want to see the model temple, then you can look at New Raman Reti in Alachua Florida.

 

Now, this is the way it should be.

Nobody can plunder this temple and walk off with the assets.

 

that is how our temple is set up as well (TOTHN in Prabhupada Village).

[Guruvani]

 

that is how our temple is set up as well (TOTHN in Prabhupada Village).

 

nice, but do your members know you are flirting with the siddha pranali gang?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

He was certainly tried and convicted in a court of law for very serious crimes, thus he is a convicted felon and a criminal. Yes, people fall in love even with serial killers - but what on earth does it prove? Guys like him shamed Mahaprabhu's movement for decades and made us a laughing stock of society at large. They (personally or through their minions) inflicted untold amount of pain on hundreds of devotees. These are the facts, and mentioning facts has nothing to do with humility.

 

Namacharya Haridas Thakur was convicted of "very serious crimes" as well. Yet, what is his position in the mind of the Vaishnava?

 

"Facts" are very malleable aren't they? Even things we see with our own eyes can be severely misconstrued.

 

You know what Mahaprabhu said about Nityananda and women of questionable character and walking out of wine-shops with those women on His arm and what we ought to assume and what we ought not to assume.

 

I'm not saying Kirtanananda is Nityananda, but how can we say definitively that he is *not*?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Mahaprabhu's movement is not some mundane off the street carnival that someone can shame with his deeds.

 

All that the actions of some deviants does is provide fodder to the doomsayers (spelling?). It does nothing to slow down the movement and even if it does, it's very temporary. It's predicted that this movement will last 10,000 years and you bet it will, no matter what.

Right!! During the time of Thakur Bhaktivinoda, how many offenders were ostensibly bringing shame to the movement of Mahaprabhu? How many Babajis with harems were there claiming to represent Mahaprabhu?

 

On the plane of exploitation there will always be exploitation. The key is to join with those who are *dedicating* rather than giving energy to those who are *exploiting*. Furthermore, within ourselves and in those for whom we have some regard, ought we not focus on the *inspired* portion and not the (sometimes struggling) *aspiring* portion?

 

Despite so many offenses on the part of so many, the movement of Mahaprabhu is without any stain or shame!!

[Guruvani]

 

 

I'm not saying Kirtanananda is Nityananda, but how can we say definitively that he is *not*?

 

Murali,

Go pack the bowl, take a big hit and think about what you just said.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Murali,

Go pack the bowl, take a big hit and think about what you just said.

 

I'm tempted, but Param-Gurudev says that, ultimately, "da kine" is an *enemy* of faith.

 

My faith is so weak already!! So it'll have to wait at least until I get off work (I say with shame).

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

It seems unfair to not give them any credit for the good actions taken in their name but to hang all the blame for the naughtiness on them.

The blame being hung on the heads of people like Kirtanananda is not the bad actions of subordinates. It is their personal and direct past actions that have brought them infamy.

 

For example:

 

1) Kirtanananda had devotees murdered.

2) Kirtanananda has molested many children (there are records and testimony with the ISKCON Child Protection Office to corroborate this)

3) Kirtanananda personally allowed other known child molestors to be in charge of the children at New Vrindavan while being fully aware of what was happening.

 

Samba was not molested by Kirtanananda because he was the son of Kirtanananda's best friend. The rest of the children weren't so lucky.

 

 

You can say whatever you like about Kirtanananda, but you cannot deny the inspiration my friend felt in his association.

There are others who take inspiration from Hitler. It means nothing about the character of the person.

 

 

As for his supposed crimes, if you were not present to witness them, aren't any accusation you make hear-say?

Keep closing your eyes and pretend Kirtanananda was a saint. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. When someone gives their opinion that these people were empowered by Krishna, I will exercise my free speech and give my opinion that they were demons who infiltrated Lord Caitanya's movement.

[Guruvani]

 

So it'll have to wait at least until I get off work (I say with shame).

ok, I see now.

you aren't thinking straight yet because you are still at work.

 

when you get home and kick off the shoes everything will become crystal clear.

 

Is the flagship of Thailand still parked out in the Pacific in international waters supplying California with "the stick".

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Keep closing your eyes and pretend Kirtanananda was a saint. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. When someone gives their opinion that these people were empowered by Krishna, I will exercise my free speech and give my opinion that they were demons who infiltrated Lord Caitanya's movement.

 

I'd rather face "reality" (whatever that is--no wait, I *do* know which reality I wish to face--Reality the Beautiful) than to delude myself further than I already have.

 

It is remarkable, however, that, while you are usually the perfect model of Vaishnava equipoise, on this topic, you demonstrate some passion. This is not intended to be a criticism, merely an observation.

 

If we have faith in the law of cause and effect, we can be assured that Kirtanananda (and ourselves) has suffered and will continue to suffer the consequences of his Vaishnava aparadha.

 

The prospect to which I choose to firmly cling is that, if, by the grace of Dayal Nitai, offenders such as Jagai and Madhai could be saved, then offenders such as Kirtanananda and myself can be saved.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Is the flagship of Thailand still parked out in the Pacific in international waters supplying California with "the stick".

 

I've only seen that particular form of sense enjoyment (and Rasta worship) once, and that was in New York.

 

These days, it tends to be locally-grown medical-grade.

 

If only I had as much affection for Tulasi Devi as I do for her dread-locked cousin!!

[Guruvani]

 

then offenders such as Kirtanananda and myself can be saved.

 

don't compare yourself with Kirtanananda Swami unless you can build a palace of gold in the hills of West Virginia.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

don't compare yourself with Kirtanananda Swami unless you can build a palace of gold in the hills of West Virginia.

 

How about a castle made of sand at Cowell's Beach? Does that qualify me?

[clown hidden]

I have been around Krishna Conciousness from the mid-seventies, I saw and heard from many of the people you are talking about. I took Hari-Nam initiation from Srila Kirtananada. There were many allegations about him that I never believed, there were others that I simply didn't care about and the more he was marginalized the more I felt I had some faith for standing by him. Eventually, 12 years or so ago, I had a conversation with him where I told him that I was no longer inspired by him. He told me that was fine but for the sake of my own spiritual life I needed to find someone who did inspire me. I have done that but I maintain to this day that the fault lay with me and not with him. I consider him to be completely dedicated to guru and Krishna and would not disparage him in any way. I agree that anyone who breaks the law should be punished regardless of who they are. As far as that may apply to Kirtananda, I believe he has served his time. I also fail to see the relevance to this moment now to harbour ill feelings over the past rather than endeavor to purify our own minds. Hare Krishna.

Phalguni Krishna das

[cbrahma]

Maybe this is the time for quiet returns. So many older devotees seem to be showing up these days. I'm not sure that its because they are too old to enjoy. Enjoyment is always an illusion.

 

But Rameswara had so much intimate association with Srila Prabhupada, did so much for him that has to count for something, a lot in fact.

 

I don't busy myself with devotees faults or stumblings until they start to affect the lives of others and Rameswara misled literally hundreds of devotees, most of which have left KC.

 

My biggest concern is how quickly devotees with some past credentials are glamorized and idealized beyond reason and reality. 'Now don't be a fault-finder' is the old saw that keeps the spin factory of guru-glitter going. I don't dare say anthing. Never breathed how I found him ridiculous, a saffron show queen being worshipped. Ah but the Emperor said I in my childish candor is...

 

That's how the guru phenomenon manages to keep going. They run the celeb circuit and are lionized like stars. And then one day, they fall down and these groupies are all angry and disillusioned. I was at New Dwarka when Rameswara was the acting acarya. I was never impressed, never taken up by the hype. So when he fell down, I wasn't too surprised. I had just seen him strutting around town in his sanyassi robes and trindunda going to clothing stores and strip malls. I chuckled then as I chuckle now when I hear of his sheepish return.

[Guruvani]

 

How about a castle made of sand at Cowell's Beach? Does that qualify me?

 

ok, but you have to put a gold dome on it.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

That's how the guru phenomenon manages to keep going. They run the celeb circuit and are lionized like stars. And then one day, they fall down and these groupies are all angry and disillusioned. I was at New Dwarka when Rameswara was the acting acarya. I was never impressed, never taken up by the hype. So when he fell down, I wasn't too surprised. I had just seen him strutting around town in his sanyassi robes and trindunda going to clothing stores and strip malls. I chuckled then as I chuckle now when I hear of his sheepish return.

I realize you're talking about Rameswar Prabhu here, but have you read Phalguni Krishna Prabhus response directly above yours?

 

He was a disciple of Kirtanananda and is anything but angry and disillusioned. He is humble and sincere.

 

I would have most likely taken initiation from Rameshwar Maharaj given that I lived in New Dwaraka in the Gurukula. I had a lot of admiration for him. When he left, I felt shocked and saddened, but never angry and never disillusioned.

 

Perhaps there's a difference between a "groupie" and a "sincere devotee"?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

ok, but you have to put a gold dome on it.

 

Gold-colored candy wrapper--you got it!!

 

Yay, I get to be fallen too!!!

[cbrahma]

 

I realize you're talking about Rameswar Prabhu here, but have you read Phalguni Krishna Prabhus response directly above yours?

 

He was a disciple of Kirtanananda and is anything but angry and disillusioned. He is humble and sincere.

 

I would have most likely taken initiation from Rameshwar Maharaj given that I lived in New Dwaraka in the Gurukula. I had a lot of admiration for him. When he left, I felt shocked and saddened, but never angry and never disillusioned.

 

Perhaps there's a difference between a "groupie" and a "sincere devotee"?

It's as much the fault of the 'star-f__ers' as the idol-guru for his inability to deal..The majority have left. The majority have felt cheated - and justifiably.

[Guruvani]

 

Gold-colored candy wrapper--you got it!!

 

Yay, I get to be fallen too!!!

 

Just don't go poking around in places you shouldn't be and we will let you slide.

[Kulapavana]

 

nice, but do your members know you are flirting with the siddha pranali gang?

 

I am?

 

Closed-minded people are afraid of anybody who dares to be independently thoughtful as Prabhupada wanted us to be.