From Caru's Newsletter: Ramesvara Dasa at LA Ratha Yatra

[Kulapavana]

 

Namacharya Haridas Thakur was convicted of "very serious crimes" as well. Yet, what is his position in the mind of the Vaishnava?

 

"Facts" are very malleable aren't they? Even things we see with our own eyes can be severely misconstrued.

 

You know what Mahaprabhu said about Nityananda and women of questionable character and walking out of wine-shops with those women on His arm and what we ought to assume and what we ought not to assume.

 

I'm not saying Kirtanananda is Nityananda, but how can we say definitively that he is *not*?

 

Dude, you smoked too much ganja and it fried your brain. It was people like Queertanananda who at one time turned this movement into a weird sect.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I'm not saying Kirtanananda is Nityananda, but how can we say definitively that he is *not*?

 

[Guruvani]

 

I am?

 

Closed-minded people are afraid of anybody who dares to be independently thoughtful as Prabhupada wanted us to be.

It's obvious that you have learnt a few tricks from Madhavananda das and the siddha pranali group.

That is where you come up with your fault-finding attitude and all this whining and complaining about ISKCON not being "traditional" enough.

 

My estimation is that these siddha pranali types have rubbed-off on you and have affected or infected your thinking.

 

That is your business and your right if you so choose, but I think it is quite duplistic and deceptive for a so-called leading ISKCON member in Poland like yourself to be dabbling in the siddha pranali camp and absorbing some of their critical and offensive outlook on Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON and then proposing to be a leading devotee around ISKCON communities.

 

It's obvious that I have spend some time around their forum and heard some of their propaganda, but I never allowed it to affect my faith in Srila Prabhupada or swing me over to the "traditional camp".

 

I have enough faith in Srila Prabhupada that I could care less about their so-called tradition.

Srila Prabhupada is the Gaudiya tradition in the western world and nobody can ever change that now.

[Kulapavana]

 

It's obvious that you have learnt a few tricks from Madhavananda das and the siddha pranali group.

That is where you come up with your fault-finding attitude and all this whining and complaining about ISKCON not being "traditional" enough.

 

 

When I joined Iskcon 28 years ago I have already studied Vedic literature, practiced yoga, and followed the 4 regs for a few years. My perspective on Iskcon practices was always my own and there are things in Iskcon I rejected from day one. This approach served me well over the years, as many of the Iskcon myths were collapsing one after another.

 

While IMO Iskcon could learn a few things from the more traditional Gaudiya groups there is a lot of very valuable things that are unique to Iskcon as well. Gold is gold and there is no shame to admit that others have it too. Denigrating other groups is something Iskcon does very well but I try not to participate in that game. Some denigrate Sridhara Maharaja's group, others denigrate the siddha-pranali camp. To each their own. Bees and flies are two different species.

 

As to my fault finding attitude - it is something I was born with, no need to blame others.

[Guruvani]

 

While IMO Iskcon could learn a few things from the more traditional Gaudiya groups

 

That is where we differ.

I think ISKCON probably could learn some ettiquete and some rituals from some of the other Saraswata camps.

One reason that ISKCON had to use Narayana Maharaja for Srila Prabhupada's samadhi ritual was because none of the ISKCON men knew how to perform such rituals.

Other than maybe learning some ettiquete and ritual from senior Saraswata Vaishnavas, I don't think ISKCON needs to learn one iota of anything from the siddha pranali camp.

ISKCON needs to keep a large distance between ISKCON and the siddha pranali.

 

ISKCON is part of the Saraswata school and Srila Prabhupada states that in his books.

I don't see any harm in ISKCON learning a few things about ettiquete and ritual or even siddhanta from some of the senior Saraswata Gaudiyas.

 

The proposal that ISKCON or the Saraswatas could learn a few tricks from the siddha pranali school is just plain stupid as far as I am concerned.

 

They only thing ISKCON could learn from them is how to be a sahajiya.

[Kulapavana]

 

They only thing ISKCON could learn from them is how to be a sahajiya.

 

Iskcon had and still has plenty of their own sahajiyas and much worse.

 

The claim that all people in the siddha pranali camp are sahajiyas is patently false, ignorant, and absurd. All of our sampradaya acharyas up to the Bhaktivinoda Thakura belonged to that camp.

[Guruvani]

 

All of our sampradaya acharyas up to the Bhaktivinoda Thakura belonged to that camp.

 

That is another myth and proof that you are infected with the siddha pranali misconceptions.

Gaudiyas are now known as Rupanugas NOT Gopal Guru Goswaminugas.

The actual line coming down from Srila Rupa Goswami is not a siddha pranali line.

That siddha pranali business comes in a line from Gopal Guru Goswami who is a sakhi of Radharani named Tungavidya Devi.

 

The Rupanugas follow Srila Rupa Goswami who is a manjari named Sri Rupa Manjari.

 

Eventually, the siddha-pranali system became so corrupted and abused that great siddha mahatmas like Jagannatha das Babaji steared Gaudiya Vaishnavism away from the practice.

 

The Saraswatas are deliberately distinguished from the bhogus siddha pranali school and that is their permanent position.

 

You have been bitten by the fangs of the siddha pranali snake.

Without anti-venom your spiritual death is imminent.

[Kulapavana]

 

You have been bitten by the fangs of the siddha pranali snake.

Without anti-venom your spiritual death is imminent.

 

Thank you for your concern. We all have to worry about things that bite us.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Dude, you smoked too much ganja and it fried your brain. It was people like Queertanananda who at one time turned this movement into a weird sect.

 

I don't want to encourage any more potential Vaishnava aparadha, so I'm going to drop this point.

 

From the perspective of the middle of the road American, what Kirtanananda did was anything but turning the movement into a weird sect. The monastic garb and chanting in English would likely make KC *more* accessible to many Americans.

 

Personally, I don't have a taste for that particular brand of worship, but I also acknowledge that acharyas such as Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati made great and radical innovations with regards to Gaudiya Vaishnava institutions such as that of sannyas (wasn't there no saffron Vaishnava sannyas before BSST?).

 

As for the issue of "queerness", I believe you are letting your Western conditioning get the best of you. It's a very sensitive subject, no doubt, but Srila Sridhar Maharaj has said that there is an element of madhurya in the relationship between Sri Krishna and Uddhava. I don't claim to know what that means, but it *is* remarkable.

 

Also, when I heard Gurudev say with a twinkle in his eye that Sri Balarama-ji is so beautiful that *everybody* wants to "play" with Him, no doubt he was talking about the Gopis, but I can't help wonder if *everybody* doesn't mean *everybody*!

 

Sri Krishna can "play" in any fashion He choses, can He not? If He is the Divine Autocrat, who are we to criticize his play?

 

So, I'm not trying to justify Kirtananda Prabhu's actions--I'm just trying to explain why I hope to refrain from judging him (or his actions).

[Guruvani]

 

 

Also, when I heard Gurudev say with a twinkle in his eye that Sri Balarama-ji is so beautiful that *everybody* wants to "play" with Him, no doubt he was talking about the Gopis, but I can't help wonder if *everybody* doesn't mean *everybody*!

 

 

[Kulapavana]

 

From the perspective of the middle of the road American, what Kirtanananda did was anything but turning the movement into a weird sect. The monastic garb and chanting in English would likely make KC *more* accessible to many Americans.

 

It is not the monastic garb and chanting in English that turned KA's group into a weird sect. It was the totalitarian management structure, brainwashing, philosophical deviations (anybody remembers the crown and the royal gown he wore?), and a wholesale engagement in criminal activities that did it. Add to that his inner circle homoerotic fan club and any sane middle of the road American would consider this a very dangerous cult.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

 

Now, wouldn't it be nice if we all did this any time we heard the devotees of the Lord blasphemed?

 

How great would it be if, every time somebody wanted to gossip with us, we replied, "Sorry, Prabhu, but I've got to chant these rounds"?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

It is not the monastic garb and chanting in English that turned KA's group into a weird sect. It was the totalitarian management structure, brainwashing, philosophical deviations (anybody remembers the crown and the royal gown he wore?), and a wholesale engagement in criminal activities that did it. Add to that his inner circle homoerotic fan club and any sane middle of the road American would consider this a very dangerous cult.

 

Points all well-taken.

 

My point is, it's pretty ridiculous, regardless of the long tradition in India, to be contrasting mainstream ISKCON with the Kirtanananda offshoot in terms of the perception of the typical American (or Westerner in general).

 

We know how pukka the presentation of Srila Prabhupada is. To the burger-heads (as Gauravani calls them)--this *all* looks pretty darned weird. Just try to explain kaupins to Joe Six-Pack.

[cbrahma]

 

Iskcon had and still has plenty of their own sahajiyas and much worse.

 

The claim that all people in the siddha pranali camp are sahajiyas is patently false, ignorant, and absurd. All of our sampradaya acharyas up to the Bhaktivinoda Thakura belonged to that camp.

What is sahajya? Cheap imitation right? So one doesn't have to dress like a gopi and have illicit sex. One can dress like a Vaisnava, sport a Sanskrit name be approved by all the authorities by proper protocol and think one has arrived. that's all it takes.

But in sanatana dharma the essential thing is the heart. No amount of external 'qualifications' can accomplish that - only the sincere chanting of the mahamantra.

[Kulapavana]

 

 

yea, man.... "this boy needs a therapy... psychosomatic..." Frontier Psychiatrist by Avalanches

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I...a wholesale engagement in criminal activities that did it.

 

Well, while it's unfair to say that child-abuse was all-pervasive in the Gurukula, it *is* my clear perception that illegal methods of fund-raising were used throughout ISKCON, not just by Kirtanananda. Perhaps Kirtanananda was sent to jail for those particular offenses because the government had an easier time prosecuting him for them than for some of the other offenses with which he has at various times been charged.

 

In fact, my father was involved in the Laguna Beach operation. My knowledge of all this is very limited (since I was a young boy at the time), but I understand that group was supporting the BBT and various temples and not just raising money for their own enjoyment.

 

After the departure of Srila Prabhupada, growing numbers of devotees ended up doing "the pick" with stickers, records, etc., rather than distributing transcendental literature. To put all the blame on Kirtanananda would be disingenuous.

[theist]

 

Just try to explain kaupins to Joe Six-Pack.

 

Just try to explain them to me. I never wore them once even for the 5 or 6 months I lived in the temple. The only thing that bothered me more than the thought of kaupins was no toilet paper. Everything else felt good.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

From the perspective of the middle of the road American, what Kirtanananda did was anything but turning the movement into a weird sect. The monastic garb and chanting in English would likely make KC *more* accessible to many Americans.

 

The actions of Kirtanananda that made ISKCON look like a cult were more along the lines of:

 

1) murdering dissenters

2) molesting young boys

3) installing known pedophiles in positions of power

4) drug smuggling sankirtan (a temple in Ohio was even raided for producing methamphetamines)

 

His other deviations in regards to dress, songs, and temple alterations are really not important in view of his more criminal activities.

 

 

As for the issue of "queerness", I believe you are letting your Western conditioning get the best of you. It's a very sensitive subject, no doubt, but Srila Sridhar Maharaj has said that there is an element of madhurya in the relationship between Sri Krishna and Uddhava. I don't claim to know what that means, but it *is* remarkable.

 

Since you admit that you don't know what it means, better not try suggesting that it refers to homosexuality. All rasas in vraja have a tinge of madhurya rasa, as the center of vraja lila is Radha and Krishna's conjugal pastimes. The topic has nothing to do with Kirtanananda being a homosexual.

 

 

Also, when I heard Gurudev say with a twinkle in his eye that Sri Balarama-ji is so beautiful that *everybody* wants to "play" with Him, no doubt he was talking about the Gopis, but I can't help wonder if *everybody* doesn't mean *everybody*!

 

You are truly insane if such thoughts come to your mind when you hear about Krishna's beauty. The rest of the sane world doesn't think it refers to homosexuality when an acharya says "Balarama is so beautiful everyone wants to play with him."

 

And to try and justify Kirtanananda's homosexuality and child molestation on the grounds that Sridhar Maharaja said "everyone wants to play with Balarama" is just absurd. Maybe when your guru maharaja comes to California you can clear the matter up with him directly rather than speculate on what Sridhar Maharaj meant. Just ask him if Sridhar Maharaja was refering to homosexuality when he said everyone wants to play with Balarama. Maybe, just to make things perfectly clear, you could also ask him if Kirtanananda's homosexuality is somehow spiritually related to the statement of Sridhar Maharaja you quoted.

[theist]

 

As for the issue of "queerness", I believe you are letting your Western conditioning get the best of you. It's a very sensitive subject, no doubt, but Srila Sridhar Maharaj has said that there is an element of madhurya in the relationship between Sri Krishna and Uddhava. I don't claim to know what that means, but it *is* remarkable.

 

Let's be careful of drawing such parrells even by inference.

[Kulapavana]

 

In fact, my father was involved in the Laguna Beach operation. My knowledge of all this is very limited (since I was a young boy at the time), but I understand that group was supporting the BBT and various temples and not just raising money for their own enjoyment.

 

Lets not even go there becuse that story has some huge and unpleasant implications and I dont want to get banned here again

[Kulapavana]

 

Just try to explain them to me. I never wore them once even for the 5 or 6 months I lived in the temple. The only thing that bothered me more than the thought of kaupins was no toilet paper.

 

I wore kaupins for several years after moving out (or actually after getting kicked out) of the temple. Only after getting married I gradually gave them up. I liked these things but I always carried a roll of my own tp and used water only afterwards...

[ksbh]

Kula pr ... why were you kicked out of the temple?

 

 

I wore kaupins for several years after moving out (or actually after getting kicked out) of the temple. Only after getting married I gradually gave them up. I liked these things but I always carried a roll of my own tp and used water only afterwards...

[Kulapavana]

 

Kula pr ... why were you kicked out of the temple?

 

it was long ago in a faraway land and it is a long story...

 

basically as a yatra leader and a private person I would not submit to the whims of a certain sannyasi who loved to lie and manipulate devotees and I had to go.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

The actions of Kirtanananda that made ISKCON look like a cult were more along the lines of:

 

1) murdering dissenters

2) molesting young boys

3) installing known pedophiles in positions of power

4) drug smuggling sankirtan (a temple in Ohio was even raided for producing methamphetamines)

 

His other deviations in regards to dress, songs, and temple alterations are really not important in view of his more criminal activities.

 

It's not clear to me that Kirtanananda ordered anybody murdered. Perhaps he turned a blind eye, and perhaps it was like the murder of the Archbishop of Canterbury, where the King (was it one of the Henrys?) muttered something under his breath about ridding him of that troublesome priest and some of the King's subjects took it upon themselves to murder the Archbishop.

 

Regarding the molesting of young boys, I didn't see anything, there seems to be not enough evidence (or will) to prosecute him for any alleged crimes. One of his alleged victims has vehemently denied any abuse.

 

Regarding installing known pedophiles in positions of power, I don't really know anything about that--you're saying Kirtanananda knew particular individuals were pedophiles and placed them in positions of power, or did he place folks in positions of power who were later revealed to be pedophiles?

 

If it's the latter, then what about Bhavananda? Who placed *him* (or Kirtanananda, for that matter) in a position of power? To me, it really doesn't make a difference. Obviously, if crimes are occurring, the crimes and the perpetrators need to be addressed, but I firmly believe anybody can be saved by the Grace of God, regardless of what crimes they might have committed.

 

As I imply in another post, drug-smuggling sankirtan was not a monopoly held by Kirtanananda (though, again, we're dealing (no pun intended) with hear-say, aren't we?).

 

 

 

 

You are truly insane if such thoughts come to your mind when you hear about Krishna's beauty. The rest of the sane world doesn't think it refers to homosexuality when an acharya says "Balarama is so beautiful everyone wants to play with him."

 

That's a rather strong statement. I imagine a devotee like Amara Das (of GALVA fame) might have some comment on such a topic.

 

Whatever the social mores are of Indian society, I read a personal account from an Indian man saying that his first sexual experiences were with his uncles and that his impression was that such experiences were not uncommon in Indian society. I have no personal knowledge about this. I'm not passing judgement on whether this is right or wrong, either, merely pointing out that "reality" and our perceptions of it can differ radically.

 

 

And to try and justify Kirtanananda's homosexuality and child molestation on the grounds that Sridhar Maharaja said "everyone wants to play with Balarama" is just absurd. Maybe when your guru maharaja comes to California you can clear the matter up with him directly rather than speculate on what Sridhar Maharaj meant. Just ask him if Sridhar Maharaja was refering to homosexuality when he said everyone wants to play with Balarama. Maybe, just to make things perfectly clear, you could also ask him if Kirtanananda's homosexuality is somehow spiritually related to the statement of Sridhar Maharaja you quoted.

 

I made it very clear what I was trying to do and what I was trying not to do. I said that, based on my speculations and impressions, I chose not to judge Kirtanananda (or anybody, for that matter). That's all.

 

Thanks for your advice regarding asking Gurudeva. Of course it's a delicate subject, and I don't wish to upset any of my Godsiblings. I will probably frame the question in terms of Param-Gurudeva's comments regarding Sri Krishna and Uddhava.

 

I know some senior members of Gurudeva's party occasionally read these forums. Perhaps they can comment anonymously in the meanwhile.

 

To be clear, it was Gurudev who said everybody wants to play with Balaram. Srila Sridhar Maharaja said this about Uddhava:

 

From "Search for Sri Krishna" page 125.

 

 

Uddhava is somewhat sakhya,

connecting with vAtsalya, parental love, and mAdhurya,

conjugal love. In this way we can trace the progressive

development of devotion.

 

And, from earlier in the book (page 123):

 

 

They said, “What do you say, Devarsi Narada? Krishna is

with us, of course, and in any time of great danger He

comes to help us, but how much do we care for Him? We

are living independently, careless about His existence. But

among us, Uddhava is really His favorite. Whatever

Krishna does, He always consults with Uddhava, and in

all His confidential matters, Uddhava is present there,

and in every case, He is always very thick with Uddhava.

Even we envy the fortune of Uddhava.”

UDDHAVA: MORE DEAR THAN KRISHNA

Then Narada went to Uddhava and told him,

“Uddhava, you are the most favorite devotee of

Krishna. Krishna says:

 

na tatha me priyatama

Atma-yonir na sankarah

na ca sankarsano na srir

naivatma ca yatha bhavan

 

“‘O Uddhava! What to speak of other devotees like

Brahma, Siva, Sankarsana, or Laksmi; you are more

dear to Me than My own life.’ You are such an intimate

associate that Krishna values you more than His own

life.”

[Vigraha]

 

I wouldn't go as far as saying destroyed, it was the very beginning, the very early stages and the strenth of ISKCON is that it has survived the pioneering years. The ultimate measure of a movement is not where it stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. This means being compassionate to the fallen, no matter what they have done in the past, who are humble enough to simply come back home, back to ISKCON

 

Maybe there should be an amnesty one day soon where the 'proud' sanyasi's and GBC take a humble position and invite everyone back.

 

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys an aspiring devotee's sense of values and his/hers objectivity. It causes him/her to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true. Power at its best is a devotees compassion implementing the demands of justice.

 

Justice at its best is Krishnas punisment and our forgiveness, even for what we see are the most fallen, correcting everything and everyone, who are humble enough to realize they have strayed away from love of Krishna and Srila Prabhupada's mission. Is this the real mission of Lord Caitanya, to save even the murders and child molesters.

 

There is a song composed by Narottama Dasa Thakura. He prays to Lord Caitanya "My dear Lord, please be merciful to me, because who can be more merciful than Your Lordship within these three worlds?" Actually, this is a fact. Not only Narottama Dasa Thakura but Rupa Gosvami also prayed to Lord Caitanya in this way. At the time of the first meeting of Lord Caitanya and Rupa Gosvami at Prayaga (Allahabad), Srila Rupa Gosvami said, "My dear Lord, You are the most munificent of all incarnations, because You are distributing love of Krsna, Krsna consciousness." When Krsna was personally present He simply asked us to surrender, but He did not distribute Himself so easily. He made con- ditions--"First of all you surrender." But this incarnation, Lord Caitanya, although Krsna Himself, makes no such condition. He simply distributes: "Take love of Krsna.'' Therefore Lord Caytanya is approved as the most munificent incarnation.

 

Narottama Dasa Thakura says, "Please be merciful to me. You are so magnanimous, because You have seen the fallen souls of this age, and You are very much compassionate to them, but You should know also that I am the most fallen. No one is more greatly fallen than me." Patita-pavana-hetu tava avatara. "Your incarnation is just to reclaim the conditioned, fallen souls, but I assure You that You will not find a greater fallen soul than me. Therefore, my claim is first.''